Holland's Greenspace

Joe_Sovereign · Post by **Joe_Sovereign** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:03 am

Joe_Sovereign wrote:There is plenty of room to build a garage without tearing down the historic buildings!!!

I will restate my previous point!

iamjacobm · Post by **iamjacobm** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:13 am

Just for knowledge sake I count 10 dates where the main concert hall is used the rest of 2015. The parking here will sit empty the vast majority of the year.

It is stuff like there were people get a warped view that downtown doesn't have enough parking. We have plenty of parking, we just don't use it right.

Post by **Coyote** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:27 am

Stadiums and Parking Lots... Everyone wants their own...

Garrett · Post by **Garrett** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:37 am

The city has a parking authority, right? They should work better at coordinating parking between all of the various lots, garages, and their owners. Imagine if there was an app that showed where empty spots were and what they cost.

Joe_Sovereign · Post by **Joe_Sovereign** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:41 am

iamjacobm wrote:Just for knowledge sake I count 10 dates where the main concert hall is used the rest of 2015. The parking here will sit empty the vast majority of the year.

It is stuff like there were people get a warped view that downtown doesn't have enough parking. We have plenty of parking, we just don't use it right.

They can sell daily parking and get a nice new revenue stream. They whole event lawn has been a disaster and they can't give away the space. They are probably looking at the ground level retail in the garage for that purpose as well.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:47 am

Part of the problem is there are those people who think whatever they have going on is the most important thing or highest possible use for space. (ie. in this case, the Omaha Performing Arts Society) What could possibly be more important than that? They think they are entitled to any accommodation that will make their activities more convenient.

If you took an aerial photo of downtown Omaha from say 1930-1960 and zoomed in closely, you would be able to count hundreds of different businesses or other functions occupying numerous buildings on all of the blocks downtown. If you did the same thing today, you could only count a fraction of what once was. It's really sad how we've gone from a very fine detailed urban granularity to a course one with just a few big chunks. We're headed toward having a downtown with maybe 20-30 big entities, some with occasional occupancy only, surrounded by acres and acres of parking garages.

RNcyanide · Post by **RNcyanide** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:16 pm

How much say would the city and the planning department have over this matter? It's insane why they would need to build a garage there when they have the one directly to the north. If they build another garage, to sell me on it, they're are going to need a heck of a lot more than ground-level retail. Have some apartments and/or offices on the top that will also use the garage so it won't sit empty all the time.

Turtle9160 · Post by **Turtle9160** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:22 pm

GetUrban wrote: We're headed toward having a downtown with maybe 20-30 big entities, some with occasional occupancy only, surrounded by acres and acres of parking garages.

Go look at Downtown Houston on google earth, one side of there downtow is like that, more surface lots then buildings. I was just in Dallas for a week and went downtown, didn't see but small number of surface lots most of which were under freeway viaducts and there parking structures for the most part look like regular buildings, why Omaha can't a lesson from that is beyond me.

Holland can build a parking structure on some of that green space they have there now and not have to tear anything down at all, can't believe there considering more demolition of our historic buildings

Linkin5 · Post by **Linkin5** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:34 pm

Turtle9160 wrote:
GetUrban wrote: We're headed toward having a downtown with maybe 20-30 big entities, some with occasional occupancy only, surrounded by acres and acres of parking garages.
Go look at Downtown Houston on google earth, one side of there downtow is like that, more surface lots then buildings. I was just in Dallas for a week and went downtown, didn't see but small number of surface lots most of which were under freeway viaducts and there parking structures for the most part look like regular buildings, why Omaha can't a lesson from that is beyond me.

Holland can build a parking structure on some of that green space they have there now and not have to tear anything down at all, can't believe there considering more demolition of our historic buildings

Houston(this is in the 80s I believe):

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:45 pm

Man, that is incredible. I was just looking at Houston on Google earth. They still have a huge amount of surface parking on the south side of downtown. There are some huge parking garages on the west side....up to 14 stories of nothing but parking. Seems like you'd need an elevator for the cars going 14 stories high.

Something for Omaha to aspire toward....j/k

iamjacobm · Post by **iamjacobm** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:57 pm

Turtle9160 wrote:I was just in Dallas for a week and went downtown, didn't see but small number of surface lots most of which were under freeway viaducts and there parking structures for the most part look like regular buildings, why Omaha can't a lesson from that is beyond me.

Honestly I think DTO has more street life than the CBD in Dallas. They have those huge office towers, but there aren't many people living there. Uptown had way more life.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:31 pm

RNcyanide wrote:How much say would the city and the planning department have over this matter? It's insane why they would need to build a garage there when they have the one directly to the north. If they build another garage, to sell me on it, they're are going to need a heck of a lot more than ground-level retail. Have some apartments and/or offices on the top that will also use the garage so it won't sit empty all the time.

The Landmarks Heritage Preservation Commission would have to issue a Certificate of Approval for the Christian Specht Building, which has been designated as a local landmark, to be demolished or altered. But the City Council can override the commission's decision. More details....

https://www.municode.com/library/ne/oma ... DIV2DELADI

On building another damn parking garage...it would just have to meet the zoning and municipal code regs, and/or obtain waivers from the planning board and city council, if necessary.

skinzfan23 · Post by **skinzfan23** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:37 pm

I have been to Dallas and there is absolutely no street life in the evenings. After offices close for the day, it is a ghost town.

That picture above of Houston makes it look like a tornado went through.

Linkin5 · Post by **Linkin5** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:49 pm

skinzfan23 wrote:I have been to Dallas and there is absolutely no street life in the evenings. After offices close for the day, it is a ghost town.

That picture above of Houston makes it look like a tornado went through.

Might as well have been. As I've got older I would now prefer to see a really good rehab of an old structure or solid infill over the construction of a new commercial tower.

RNcyanide · Post by **RNcyanide** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:51 pm

Linkin5 wrote:
skinzfan23 wrote:I have been to Dallas and there is absolutely no street life in the evenings. After offices close for the day, it is a ghost town.

That picture above of Houston makes it look like a tornado went through.
Might as well have been. As I've got older I would now prefer to see a really good rehab of an old structure or solid infill over the construction of a new commercial tower.

I'm curious as to how many people would be upset about the Specht building coming down if it were a 30+ story glass tube vs. a parking garage.

skinzfan23 · Post by **skinzfan23** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:56 pm

Linkin5 wrote:
skinzfan23 wrote:I have been to Dallas and there is absolutely no street life in the evenings. After offices close for the day, it is a ghost town.

That picture above of Houston makes it look like a tornado went through.
Might as well have been. As I've got older I would now prefer to see a really good rehab of an old structure or solid infill over the construction of a new commercial tower.

I am starting to feel this way as well. 10 years ago if you would have asked me...I would have said tower all the way. Now after seeing the recent threads on here about Jobber's Canyon and the building hiding under cladding...I will almost always take the preservation route, especially when we are talking about buildings that are over 100 years old. There is a reason those buildings are still standing. They were built well, not to mention usually contain tons of character.

Midwestern · Post by **Midwestern** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:01 pm

Well to me, a lot of it has to do with what is replacing what you're taking down. For example, I thought the Medical Arts Building was fantastic and I sure do wish we still had it. But what replaced it was certainly "worth it". There are very few buildings that I would consider absolutely 100% untouchable.

Now, we have plenty of empty lots that of course I'm sure we'd all rather see be built on before demolishing anything, but you have to think of who owns those lots, where lots are located, etc. It's not like you can just magically build on any surface lot you want.

But these days, with how much every city across the country has already lost to parking, anything of any substance coming down for a parking garage should always be seen as insanity.

Professor Woland · Post by **Professor Woland** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:41 pm

RNcyanide wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:
skinzfan23 wrote:I have been to Dallas and there is absolutely no street life in the evenings. After offices close for the day, it is a ghost town.

That picture above of Houston makes it look like a tornado went through.
Might as well have been. As I've got older I would now prefer to see a really good rehab of an old structure or solid infill over the construction of a new commercial tower.
I'm curious as to how many people would be upset about the Specht building coming down if it were a 30+ story glass tube vs. a parking garage.

In this case there is nothing they could replace it with because the owners don't want to sell. If the owners freely and willingly sell the property then I might have an aesthetic preference but property rights must be respected, they are exponentially more important than progress, neighborhood character, heritage, etc. The right of a powerful business, or a mob of preservationists to either force a property owner to sell or prevent a property owner from tearing down must be fought tooth and nail. Here we have owners who would like to keep their buildings, that is the only pertinent factor. Now, if they were to decide they would like to sell the buildings I would support the new owners' right to do whatever they would see fit to do with the property, but my aesthetic preference would be that if the buildings were to come down that something truly remarkable and beautiful replace them and I don't think anyone could dream up a parking garage that meet that criterion.

iamjacobm · Post by **iamjacobm** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:46 pm

So you don't think there should be any zoning ordinances?

Professor Woland · Post by **Professor Woland** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:23 pm

iamjacobm wrote:So you don't think there should be any zoning ordinances?

Not per se, I do think that the normal sorts of property protections would prevent a slaughterhouse from opening in a residential neighborhood. Tokyo has practically no zoning and it does just fine. Houston has a very scant zoning regime and while people might not like all of the surface lots the city thrives. I accept that zoning ordinances are inevitable in most cities (including Omaha) so I'm not interested in getting into a debate about them, but if we are going to have them they need to be lenient and serve to protect property owners from noise, fumes, excessive light, vermin and so forth, not to enforce someone else's aesthetic preferences.

iamjacobm · Post by **iamjacobm** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:30 pm

Professor Woland wrote:
iamjacobm wrote:So you don't think there should be any zoning ordinances?
Not per se, I do think that the normal sorts of property protections would prevent a slaughterhouse from opening in a residential neighborhood. Tokyo has practically no zoning and it does just fine. Houston has a very scant zoning regime and while people might not like all of the surface lots the city thrives. I accept that zoning ordinances are inevitable in most cities (including Omaha) so I'm not interested in getting into a debate about them, but if we are going to have them they need to be lenient and serve to protect property owners from noise, fumes, excessive light, vermin and so forth, not to enforce someone else's aesthetic preferences.

Thanks, I was just curious.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:33 pm

Most likely, the future of the buildings will come down to whether the owners decide to sell. The Landmark designation on the Specht building can be rescinded by the Landmark Heritage Preservation Commission and/or overruled by the City Council. I don't see OPAS having any legitimate grounds for eminent domain. Mayor Stothert doesn't appear to think so either.

Unless I'm mistaken, eminent domain wasn't even needed for Jobber's Canyon....the owners eventually agreed to sell to the Omaha Development Foundation, albeit reluctantly.

NovakOmaha · Post by **NovakOmaha** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:44 pm

GetUrban wrote:Most likely, the future of the buildings will come down to whether the owners decide to sell. The Landmark designation on the Specht building can be rescinded by the Landmark Heritage Preservation Commission and/or overruled by the City Council. I don't see OPAS having any legitimate grounds for eminent domain. Mayor Stothert doesn't appear to think so either.

Unless I'm mistaken, eminent domain wasn't even needed for Jobber's Canyon....the owners eventually agreed to sell to the Omaha Development Foundation, albeit reluctantly.

Not sure about eminent domain but the bulk of the owners made out like bandits. Cash and in some cases free land to relocate to. All things being equal who wouldn't want a brand new building for their business? I know of a few businesses that called it xmas in july.

dto · Post by **dto** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:29 pm

I think that it is pretty obvious that there is more than what is being said in the paper or on the news. Just what I think.

I dont know about the Specht owners, but from what I hear the other two owners are intrested in redevelopment, but want to redevelop space themselves, not give up there land, and will work with PAS to put up the garage.

PAS does not want to work along side anybody else, and has more planned than just the parking garage, that is why they want more space.

HDR doenst want to building a parking garage into their hq bldg, they dont want to pay the upfront cost for it.

The city also has a huge interest in how the area is handled because they want to tie the new shamrock development to downtown. (I dont see how this works). Also the city has done downtown parking study that shows there is plenty of space, although this is a few years old now.

There is my 2 cents, that probably not even worth that.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:10 am

Here's a blog post that is pertinent to the discussion we're having here....

http://archplanbaltimore.blogspot.com/2 ... w=magazine

There are many other good posts on this blog too, which relate to many other topics on Eomaha. It's worth a read.

Post by **Brad** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:13 am

Nice article from the Matthew Hansen at the OWH!

Hansen: Battle over historic buildings poses question: What kind of city does Omaha want to be?

http://www.omaha.com/columnists/hansen/ ... ff5c3.html

Matthew Hansen / World-Herald columnist wrote:Here we go again.

That’s what George Haecker thought when he picked up the newspaper Wednesday morning. He read of Omaha Performing Arts’ embryonic plan to demolish three century-old buildings — one of them historic — and put up a parking garage.

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:45 am

Yeah, that was a good article. I also was encouraged by Stothert's stance on the issue.

Perhaps by raising some resistance to demolishing the historic buildings early in the process, they will have a stronger negotiating position to steer the conversation to a better solution, such as a sharing agreement with nearby parking space (e.g. the UP-leased garage, or perhaps space in the new HDR garage).

daveoma · Post by **daveoma** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:51 am

I emailed the writer and thanked him for calling out the Holland center. I think everyone who agrees should show their support by emailing or writing the OWH.

skinzfan23 · Post by **skinzfan23** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:52 am

I love the mayor's response to all the parking demands that the PAS (performing arts society) has requested. She constantly keeps stating that there is enough parking and the buildings don't need to be torn down. A parking structure can be built around them and still allow HDR to occupy that horrible looking parking lot. If the PAS was so worried about parking, why haven't they built a nice mixed use garage on the lot they own 80% of?

I am glad that the mayor is forward thinking and I hope she continues to stick up for the historic preservation of buildings while allowing the city to grow at the same time.

skinzfan23 · Post by **skinzfan23** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:52 am

daveoma wrote:I emailed the writer and thanked him for calling out the Holland center. I think everyone who agrees should show their support by emailing or writing the OWH.

Post by **Brad** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:26 am

daveoma wrote:I emailed the writer and thanked him for calling out the Holland center. I think everyone who agrees should show their support by emailing or writing the OWH.

I emailed the writer of yesterday's story. I also sent him the "Modified OWH" map that I made too. He wrote right back also asked if he could forward my email on to the public pulse.

Joe_Sovereign · Post by **Joe_Sovereign** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:58 pm

If the surface lot at 11th and Douglas is too critical to the Holland. Perhaps Lanoha and HDR can make a deal and build a 50 story residential/office tower on the old UP lot.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:38 pm

Don't say that too loud....they'd probably find an excuse to take down the old Art Deco federal building catty-corner at the SW corner of 15th & Dodge for parking.

nativeomahan · Post by **nativeomahan** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:23 am

I had lunch with a member of the Omaha city council yesterday. The council person leans against any possible use of eminent domain to take these buildings if the owners don't willingly want to sell, which apparently is the case. I expressed my utter disbelief that, after the Conagra debacle with the destruction of Jobbers Canyon, anyone, let alone an architectural business, would have the balls to even suggest tearing down more of our heritage. I heard agreement from across the lunch table.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:39 am

skinzfan23 wrote:I love the mayor's response to all the parking demands that the PAS (performing arts society) has requested. She constantly keeps stating that there is enough parking and the buildings don't need to be torn down. A parking structure can be built around them and still allow HDR to occupy that horrible looking parking lot. If the PAS was so worried about parking, why haven't they built a nice mixed use garage on the lot they own 80% of?

I am glad that the mayor is forward thinking and I hope she continues to stick up for the historic preservation of buildings while allowing the city to grow at the same time.

I'm cautiously optimistic the historic buildings will be saved, but she did leave the door slightly open if someone came along with a "higher" use for the property, other than parking. Gottchalk (of OPAS) subsequently said they have bigger plans for the adjacent greenspace in addition to parking, such as a children's education center for the arts. Perhaps the children can learn about historic architecture too, if they leave the historic buildings adjacent to the Holland intact.

The more I think about losing those buildings the more upset/angry I get. They are an extension of the urban fabric and urban context that includes the Old Market. Other nearby historic buildings such as the Pinnacle Bank building to the east, Ford Warehouse to the northeast, historic warehouse buildings northeast of 10th St., and Burlington building to the southeast will become more isolated if the connecting urban context is destroyed. That will eventually put those historic buildings in Jeopardy too as they become historic islands without any surrounding historical context left. We've seen it gradually happen to a large portion of downtown. This destruction has to stop somewhere....now is the time.

Rumors still have it that the Alvine building owners are looking to do something of their own, if not part of the Holland expansion. If they do, it will further isolate the Specht and Happy Hollow Coffee buildings.

RNcyanide · Post by **RNcyanide** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:42 am

I'm fairly certain things will play out well in the end. The wounds from the loss of JC have been re-opened, HDR has a lease that expires in 2019, and I have a gut feeling a parking garage will still end up there, but the Specht building will remain standing. Those are my bets.

Post by **BRoss** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:53 am

RNcyanide wrote:I'm fairly certain things will play out well in the end. The wounds from the loss of JC have been re-opened, HDR has a lease that expires in 2019, and I have a gut feeling a parking garage will still end up there, but the Specht building will remain standing. Those are my bets.

I like your optimism. Hopefully that's what happens.

RNcyanide · Post by **RNcyanide** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:01 pm

HR Paperstacks wrote:
RNcyanide wrote:I'm fairly certain things will play out well in the end. The wounds from the loss of JC have been re-opened, HDR has a lease that expires in 2019, and I have a gut feeling a parking garage will still end up there, but the Specht building will remain standing. Those are my bets.
I like your optimism. Hopefully that's what happens.

I wish I had something more than optimism to place my bets on.

PotatoeEatsFish · Post by **PotatoeEatsFish** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:16 am

https://www.change.org/p/jene-city-of-o ... m=copylink

Please sign it and share it, lets see what this can do!

mr. omaha · Post by **mr. omaha** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:36 pm

Here's an idea I quickly put together to further illustrate the potential for Omaha Performing Arts to develop the Holland greenspace with something that will benefit the ENTIRE community AND preserve the historic buildings (and even give Frankie Pane's lot some love):

I implore OPA to pull their myopic, selfish heads out of their arses and consider how easy and wonderful it is to integrate the old with the new.