Holland's Greenspace

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:48 am

They played right into all of the people saying don't let them destroy historic buildings just for parking. Now they can say, "see there IS a lot more to it than parking." That is a very ambitious plan they're showing now. They're not getting a dime of my money for it, unless they modify their plan to save the 4 existing buildings. (not that my $ would make the slightest difference at all) My guess is they already have built-up oodles of donations/pledges over the last 10 years, or will soon.

skinzfan23 · Post by **skinzfan23** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:58 am

Like I mentioned before, my biggest fear is that the lot sits vacant for years. They even said it themselves, it is their long term goal. I like how it started out complaining about parking and now they release this showing other potential. I feel that they are just trying to appease the mayor since she stated that she wouldn't support eminent domain for parking. I think OPA is trying to show these plans in hopes that the city will use eminent domain so they don't have to pay a higher price for the historic buildings.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:12 am

I'm wondering if eminent domain is even legal under state law, since Holland is private....unless the city acts as the go-between. Rob Paul to pay Peter.

Time to get Ernie Chambers involved. lol

Looks like they turned comments off on the OWH story....at least none are coming up.

blueblood · Post by **blueblood** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:57 am

I guess I am confused by the rendering. Another performance hall? Are they saying another state of the art performance hall across the street from the one they already have? Is this one bigger? Smaller? Why?

mistergutierrez · Post by **mistergutierrez** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:37 am

Another hall, so they can host all the plays currently going on in the Orpheum Theatre, so they can tear down the Orpheum Tower and do nice looking surface parking lot. Win-win.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:56 am

mistergutierrez wrote:Another hall, so they can host all the plays currently going on in the Orpheum Theatre, so they can tear down the Orpheum Tower and do nice looking surface parking lot. Win-win.

...or probably a new hall so patrons don't have to walk so far from the new parking garage on the east end.

Here's a link to a NE eminent domain law....it's vague enough that they might be able to take the property, since Holland is open to the ticket-holding public. Gottschalk talked about the addition having a performance school for children in the future too.
http://uniweb.legislature.ne.gov/FloorD ... /LB924.pdf

Joe_Sovereign · Post by **Joe_Sovereign** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:49 pm

EastCB wrote:
Joe_Sovereign wrote:Can we use eminent domain to acquire the land the Holland sits on and tear down the Holland? We could build a new performing arts center out in the suburbs with 3 or 4 parking spots per seat and special robots to lift fat elderly people from their cars to their seats so they don't have to walk at all or maybe we could build a Drive-In Performing Arts Center so nobody needs to get out of their cars at all.
What a bunch of |expletive|.

I am going to treat the Holland and the Assholes that run it with the same respect they show the City's History and the people that try to protect it.

Also |expletive| You.

Linkin5 · Post by **Linkin5** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:53 pm

Joe_Sovereign · Post by **Joe_Sovereign** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:53 pm

If the opponents of the destruction of our City's History want to be taken seriously they should begin today disrupting every performance at the Holland until this proposal by the Holland is taken down and the historic buildings future is preserved.

If this plays out in the City Council behind closed doors we all know who will win.

ricko · Post by **ricko** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:56 pm

I smell a rat. I read the article in the OWH---this all sounds so hastily thrown together; the plans sound vague/indefinite/rushed. What bothers me the most is Gottshnalk's connection to the OWH (former publisher) and the tone of the story. A little 'old-boy' back scratching going on? What exactly qualifies this guy to be the head of an arts organization? Sounds like a 21st Century version of Mike Harper.

mr. omaha · Post by **mr. omaha** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:06 pm

ricko wrote:I smell a rat. I read the article in the OWH---this all sounds so hastily thrown together; the plans sound vague/indefinite/rushed. What bothers me the most is Gottshnalk's connection to the OWH (former publisher) and the tone of the story. A little 'old-boy' back scratching going on? What exactly qualifies this guy to be the head of an arts organization? Sounds like a 21st Century version of Mike Harper.

You hit the nail on the f*cking head, my friend.

I will make it a point to aim for the floor every time I use the restroom if I ever attend an event the Whoreland Center, which is unlikely.

mr. omaha · Post by **mr. omaha** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:10 pm

From eastof72nd Instagram (follow him if you don't already):

http://instagram.com/p/9oqNtshvTW/

Tubbs Gottschalk must have grandkids at Boys Town or something. F*ckin' hypocrite.

image.jpeg

SaveTheOCHClocktower · Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:28 pm

I think everyone is missing the big picture here. Eminent domain is only needed when you have an unwilling seller. This is not about eminent domain and never was.

In 2001 John Gottschalk made his demand for the old buildings in a rather ham-fisted manner. The building owners had their back up against the wall and lost on eminent domain before the City Council. They were only able to save their buildings from demolition by putting pressure on OPA donors via a lawsuit. Over the past 14 years the building owners have watched the intense downtown development all around them. The owners have gotten older and are possibly ready for a change. Their property is valuable and they know it. They understand it is most valuable to OPA. Let's face it, those "ugly red brick buildings" are an open wound to OPA.

The way this story is coming out in the World-Herald, it appears to be just a negotiating drama between John Gottschalk and the property owners. Gottschalk commented in the 11/3/15 story that OPA has been trying to buy the properties for months without success: "We weren't getting anywhere." I suspect that this is simply a matter of getting top dollar for the properties.

In the 11/2/15 World-Herald story the attorney for the building owners said that they want to keep the buildings "but if they must be removed, the resulting project should have street-level retail spaces or other features beyond a parking garage." He says nothing about saving or incorporating the landmarked building.

Mayor Stothert made it clear in the 10/22/15 World-Herald story that "the old buildings would be demolished only if their owners are willing to sell to Omaha Performing Arts." In that story the attorney for the building owners said if the buildings must go, it shouldn't be for a "giant parking garage." The attorney said "if they are going to be taken, it ought to be for something very, very nice and something that everyone in the city can be proud of." Unless the attorney didn't get the message from Stothert of no eminent domain, which I doubt, it appears from the story that his clients are effectively willing sellers. This was confirmed by Mayor Stothert in the 11/3/15 World-Herald story when she said that the city is preparing a purchase offer to the owners, and if accepted, the city would give the land to OPA. The Mayor's next sentence confirmed my thesis: "That's my preference, and I think we have willing sellers."

In the midst of the 2001 City Council fight, Todd Simon invited preservationists to tour his threatened home, the Happy Hollow Coffee building, as long as they first removed their shoes at the front door, and, with shoes on, his Christian Specht building. A public rally in support of the preservation of the old buildings is scheduled for tomorrow, Wednesday, November 4. I suspect that Todd Simon and the other property owners will not be present. I also suspect that there will not be a pile of shoes in front of the Happy Hollow Coffee building anytime soon.

One final thought: It looks like John Gottschalk still doesn't get it after all these years. In the 11/3/15 World-Herald story he said that the historic 1884 Christian Specht cast-iron facade "could and should be preserved in some fashion" and that OPA would support such an effort. Well spoken good knight; excuse me your royal highness, King of Ak-Sar-Ben Number 91. Paraphrasing an actual salutation to the first King of Ak-Sar-Ben, I can now proclaim:

"By the Grace of God, King of Quivera, Duke of the Seven Cities of Cibola, Defender of the Faith and Knight of the Royal Host. By your royal decree, Preservation in Omaha is Toast."

TitosBuritoBarn · Post by **TitosBuritoBarn** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:13 pm

SaveTheOCHClocktower wrote:In the midst of the 2001 City Council fight, Todd Simon invited preservationists to tour his threatened home, the Happy Hollow Coffee building, as long as they first removed their shoes at the front door, and, with shoes on, his Christian Specht building. A public rally in support of the preservation of the old buildings is scheduled for tomorrow, Wednesday, November 4. I suspect that Todd Simon and the other property owners will not be present. I also suspect that there will not be a pile of shoes in front of the Happy Hollow Coffee building anytime soon.

Because you believe Todd has become a willing seller?

NEDodger · Post by **NEDodger** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:09 pm

mr. omaha wrote:
ricko wrote:I smell a rat. I read the article in the OWH---this all sounds so hastily thrown together; the plans sound vague/indefinite/rushed. What bothers me the most is Gottshnalk's connection to the OWH (former publisher) and the tone of the story. A little 'old-boy' back scratching going on? What exactly qualifies this guy to be the head of an arts organization? Sounds like a 21st Century version of Mike Harper.
You hit the nail on the f*cking head, my friend.

I will make it a point to aim for the floor every time I use the restroom if I ever attend an event the Whoreland Center, which is unlikely.

Yeah, that's great. Make a 9 dollar an hour janitor clean up your pee. That'll really show the head honchos behind OPA.

mcarch · Post by **mcarch** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:22 pm

So in that newspaper article, I don't see any parking garage... thought the whole issue was about parking, then they show this? I'm still not interested. They could still keep the buildings.

OmahaJaysCU · Post by **OmahaJaysCU** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:33 pm

GetUrban wrote:I'm wondering if eminent domain is even legal under state law, since Holland is private....unless the city acts as the go-between. Rob Paul to pay Peter.

Time to get Ernie Chambers involved. lol

Looks like they turned comments off on the OWH story....at least none are coming up.

Love it or hate it, Kelo vs. New London. The city can eminent domaine it and sell it to OPAS per the Supreme Court.

This situation has quickly gotten out of hand.

jessep28 · Post by **jessep28** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:10 pm

Social justice warrior powers activate!

mr. omaha · Post by **mr. omaha** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:43 pm

NEDodger wrote:
mr. omaha wrote:
ricko wrote:I smell a rat. I read the article in the OWH---this all sounds so hastily thrown together; the plans sound vague/indefinite/rushed. What bothers me the most is Gottshnalk's connection to the OWH (former publisher) and the tone of the story. A little 'old-boy' back scratching going on? What exactly qualifies this guy to be the head of an arts organization? Sounds like a 21st Century version of Mike Harper.
You hit the nail on the f*cking head, my friend.

I will make it a point to aim for the floor every time I use the restroom if I ever attend an event the Whoreland Center, which is unlikely.
Yeah, that's great. Make a 9 dollar an hour janitor clean up your pee. That'll really show the head honchos behind OPA.

Who said anything about pee?

But in all seriousness, I would never dream of dripping even a single drop of my pee on the floor of the restrooms at the Holland, because that would mean I had to pay to go there, which would be supporting Gottschalk's interests, which I now refuse to ever do.

RNcyanide · Post by **RNcyanide** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:28 pm

Where the heck did this conversation go?

Professor Woland · Post by **Professor Woland** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:31 pm

OmahaJaysCU wrote:
GetUrban wrote:I'm wondering if eminent domain is even legal under state law, since Holland is private....unless the city acts as the go-between. Rob Paul to pay Peter.

Time to get Ernie Chambers involved. lol

Looks like they turned comments off on the OWH story....at least none are coming up.

Love it or hate it, Kelo vs. New London. The city can eminent domaine it and sell it to OPAS per the Supreme Court.

This situation has quickly gotten out of hand.

Kind of. Kelo just determined that federal law permitted local governments to engage in that type of eminent domain, a state supreme court could rule that it violates the state constitution. This would actually be a good catalyst to push for eminent domain reform in Nebraska.

mr. omaha · Post by **mr. omaha** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:44 pm

I just hope people show up to this first planning board meeting.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:48 pm

OmahaJaysCU wrote:
GetUrban wrote:I'm wondering if eminent domain is even legal under state law, since Holland is private....unless the city acts as the go-between. Rob Paul to pay Peter.
Time to get Ernie Chambers involved. lol
Love it or hate it, Kelo vs. New London. The city can eminent domaine it and sell it to OPAS per the Supreme Court.
This situation has quickly gotten out of hand.

Right now the future of the buildings is squarely in the building owner's hands.... The buildings are as good as gone if the price is right. Now the city is going to do the bidding. Per today's OWH story:

“We weren’t getting anywhere,” he said, so now it’s up to the city to help assemble the property needed for the Holland Center’s future. “The options are to buy it, or if that’s impossible, use eminent domain,” he said. “Or the owners could contact us and sell it to us directly.”
Mayor Jean Stothert said Monday that the city is preparing a purchase offer and, if it’s accepted, the city would give the land to Omaha Performing Arts.
“That’s my preference, and I think we have willing sellers,” Stothert said. “If HDR doesn’t build downtown, it’s not going to be because of the city.” She said she doesn’t think a majority of Omaha City Council members would support using eminent domain to acquire the property.
The building’s owners — Todd Simon and Alvine & Associates — “want to be treated fairly, and they don’t want to be run over,” said Cassie Paben, the mayor’s deputy chief of staff for economic development. The property owners’ attorney couldn’t be reached.

Doesn't look good for the historic buildings, once again. They never had a chance, unless things suddenly turn around somehow.

Professor Woland · Post by **Professor Woland** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:04 pm

GetUrban wrote:
OmahaJaysCU wrote:
GetUrban wrote:I'm wondering if eminent domain is even legal under state law, since Holland is private....unless the city acts as the go-between. Rob Paul to pay Peter.
Time to get Ernie Chambers involved. lol
Love it or hate it, Kelo vs. New London. The city can eminent domaine it and sell it to OPAS per the Supreme Court.
This situation has quickly gotten out of hand.
Right now the future of the buildings is squarely in the building owner's hands.... The buildings are as good as gone if the price is right. Now the city is going to do the bidding. Per today's OWH story:
“We weren’t getting anywhere,” he said, so now it’s up to the city to help assemble the property needed for the Holland Center’s future. “The options are to buy it, or if that’s impossible, use eminent domain,” he said. “Or the owners could contact us and sell it to us directly.”
Mayor Jean Stothert said Monday that the city is preparing a purchase offer and, if it’s accepted, the city would give the land to Omaha Performing Arts.
“That’s my preference, and I think we have willing sellers,” Stothert said. “If HDR doesn’t build downtown, it’s not going to be because of the city.” She said she doesn’t think a majority of Omaha City Council members would support using eminent domain to acquire the property.
The building’s owners — Todd Simon and Alvine & Associates — “want to be treated fairly, and they don’t want to be run over,” said Cassie Paben, the mayor’s deputy chief of staff for economic development. The property owners’ attorney couldn’t be reached.
Doesn't look good for the historic buildings, once again. They never had a chance, unless things suddenly turn around somehow.

I suppose the people who want to save them could pool their resources and put in their own offer for the buildings.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:13 pm

Professor, more likely you'll have the movers & shakers pooling their money to help the city buy the historic building properties for OPAS. I wish there were more preservationists with very deep pockets. Oh Warren?

bmt · Post by **bmt** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:20 pm

It would be a shame to lose those buildings. I wonder if the facade from the Specht building could be relocated to a different location...

PotatoeEatsFish · Post by **PotatoeEatsFish** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:38 pm

Could they just move the whole Specht Building to a different location?

mr. omaha · Post by **mr. omaha** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:47 pm

They could move all four of them. Absolutely doable.

Midwestern · Post by **Midwestern** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:50 am

A good place for them could be the southeast corner of 10th & Capitol. Originally Shamrock was going to build something there, but it doesn't look like that panned out, so the city probably owns that land again...?

At the very least I don't see why they couldn't save the facade of the Specht building for future use on a different building.

But maybe the city could help broker a deal where one, two, or all of the buildings were moved somewhere close. Unless that is super expensive.

Post by **Coyote** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:01 am

So how the heck did we get, in a months time, from this Holland's Addition parking garage proposal:

: image.jpg (55.49 KiB) Viewed 2146 times

To this gigantic Holland's Addition Arts proposal?

: image.jpg (154.36 KiB) Viewed 2146 times

Without the OWH mentioning the difference?

PotatoeEatsFish · Post by **PotatoeEatsFish** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:40 am

Midwestern wrote:A good place for them could be the southeast corner of 10th & Capitol. Originally Shamrock was going to build something there, but it doesn't look like that panned out, so the city probably owns that land again...?

At the very least I don't see why they couldn't save the facade of the Specht building for future use on a different building.

But maybe the city could help broker a deal where one, two, or all of the buildings were moved somewhere close. Unless that is super expensive.

That's called the Capitol District and they're building it right now.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:55 am

PotatoeEatsFish wrote:
Midwestern wrote:A good place for them could be the southeast corner of 10th & Capitol. Originally Shamrock was going to build something there, but it doesn't look like that panned out, so the city probably owns that land again...?

At the very least I don't see why they couldn't save the facade of the Specht building for future use on a different building.

But maybe the city could help broker a deal where one, two, or all of the buildings were moved somewhere close. Unless that is super expensive.
That's called the Capitol District and they're building it right now.

You're thinking of the northwest corner of that intersection. The southeast corner is still open and has no drawn up plans for it yet.

skinzfan23 · Post by **skinzfan23** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:34 am

Midwestern wrote:A good place for them could be the southeast corner of 10th & Capitol. Originally Shamrock was going to build something there, but it doesn't look like that panned out, so the city probably owns that land again...?

At the very least I don't see why they couldn't save the facade of the Specht building for future use on a different building.

But maybe the city could help broker a deal where one, two, or all of the buildings were moved somewhere close. Unless that is super expensive.

That would be an excellent idea, but I doubt it happens.

nativeomahan · Post by **nativeomahan** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:55 am

In an enlightened city this conversation would never, ever, be necessary. Because no one with half a brain would propose destroying an important part of the city's history.
The simple fact that this conversation/debate is necessary is evidence that we have a long way left to travel before Omaha starts acting like a "destination" city.

Joe_Sovereign · Post by **Joe_Sovereign** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:02 am

There is absolutely no reason they can't build in the current Green Space and Stack the different uses they want for the expansion vertically. They could even suspend above the existing buildings if they needed to. This is not about Parking or about needing the space for expansion. This is still about Gottschalk fighting the 2001 battle to destroy these historic buildings.

The opposition needs to start disrupting Holland performances and trying to get the Omaha artistic community on board in opposition to this. Perhaps if the opposition began contacting Artist scheduled to perform at the Holland and got some to cancel their performances it would get Gottschalk's attention.

jessep28 · Post by **jessep28** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:15 am

Joe_Sovereign wrote: This is not about Parking or about needing the space for expansion. This is still about Gottschalk fighting the 2001 battle to destroy these historic buildings.

*folds tinfoil hat*

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:20 am

Joe_Sovereign wrote:There is absolutely no reason they can't build in the current Green Space and Stack the different uses they want for the expansion vertically. They could even suspend above the existing buildings if they needed to. This is not about Parking or about needing the space for expansion. This is still about Gottschalk fighting the 2001 battle to destroy these historic buildings.

The opposition needs to start disrupting Holland performances and trying to get the Omaha artistic community on board in opposition to this. Perhaps if the opposition began contacting Artist scheduled to perform at the Holland and got some to cancel their performances it would get Gottschalk's attention.

Since it's safe to assume HDR is still the architect for the Holland expansion, It's plain to see they only know how to draw large rectangles.

The story in today's OWH got some more facts wrong. They said Alvine is the owner of the Specht building, but it is in fact Jamaica Partnership, which is owned by Todd Simon. I believe Alvine is a "willing seller", if the price is right from what I hear. Not sure about Simon.

You're right....the pressure on OPAS to leave the buildings alone needs to come from all directions.

Linkin5 · Post by **Linkin5** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:22 am

Coyote wrote:So how the heck did we get, in a months time, from this Holland's Addition parking garage proposal:

image.jpg
To this gigantic Holland's Addition Arts proposal?

image.jpg
Without the OWH mentioning the difference?

Stothert said she wouldn't approve historic buildings to be torn down for parking. OPA saw this and now is responding with a complete BS plan to build another performing arts center and a Multipurpose building. I will bet once these buildings are torn down we will see nothing but parking for the next decade.

Joe_Sovereign · Post by **Joe_Sovereign** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:32 am

The Holland's sideyard was suppose to be an outdoor performance space and nothing has been done with it in 10 years.

Joe_Sovereign · Post by **Joe_Sovereign** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:38 am

jessep28 wrote:
Joe_Sovereign wrote: This is not about Parking or about needing the space for expansion. This is still about Gottschalk fighting the 2001 battle to destroy these historic buildings.
*folds tinfoil hat*

Let's see this was all about new parking 10 days ago, and after that plan meet with resistance the Holland is now ready to build a massive new performance space and mixed use rectangle doubling their facility's size. That is totally credible. Let's see their detailed plans for the new expansion, lets see the money they have set aside to fund this. Let's see any information that this multiuse/performance space plan predates the Mayor's resistance to tear down the buildings for parking.