Holland's Greenspace

Downtown, Midtown, and all parts east of 72nd.

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Joe_Sovereign
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Joe_Sovereign »

Midwestern wrote:
NovakOmaha wrote:What the Holland didn't spur, what the mall didn't spur, what could have made the mall area special and really could have made downtown explode....was anything other than office and parking space. No retail, no restaurants, no housing, etc. Nothing to make the area surrounding the mall 24 hour or even 18 hour. A 20 story apartment building with ground floor restaurant would have been so bad?
This area is kinda already screwed when it comes to attaining any sense of daily vibrancy. Almost all of those 3-4 story neat buildings around this area that could have supported retail or restaurants and been an extension of OM are long gone. And now you have GLM as a barrier. And there's no 11th street crossing of GLM. Not that it matters -- what retail is on the other side of the GLM from this area anyway? It's a big concrete slab of NOTHING.

How can anyone make a strong case to save these buildings that will actually convince their owners to keep them when all of the other retail surrounding GLM has already been destroyed? Offices and the Holland Center + parking for those two things it is, then.

I hate losing the architecture/history as much as anyone, but you've gotta be realistic.
Capital District will have retail, rumors of ground level retail in the HDR Headquarters, what ever is eventually built in the surface lots on 11th and Farnam will have retail. Saying this are is going to stay dead so there is no point in saving hundred year old buildings from unnecessary destruction is very short sighted.
ShaneofCal
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by ShaneofCal »

I really (really, really, really, really) hope that Omaha (at large) has reached a point, especially with the exit of Conagra's HQ, where short-term corporate interests will not placed ahead of long-term, intelligent community planning. I also hope, and suspect it may be so, that those who are in charge of the HPA do appreciate the value of history and aesthetics--and to a fairly significant degree.
Last edited by ShaneofCal on Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Midwestern
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Midwestern »

Joe_Sovereign wrote:
Midwestern wrote:
NovakOmaha wrote:What the Holland didn't spur, what the mall didn't spur, what could have made the mall area special and really could have made downtown explode....was anything other than office and parking space. No retail, no restaurants, no housing, etc. Nothing to make the area surrounding the mall 24 hour or even 18 hour. A 20 story apartment building with ground floor restaurant would have been so bad?
This area is kinda already screwed when it comes to attaining any sense of daily vibrancy. Almost all of those 3-4 story neat buildings around this area that could have supported retail or restaurants and been an extension of OM are long gone. And now you have GLM as a barrier. And there's no 11th street crossing of GLM. Not that it matters -- what retail is on the other side of the GLM from this area anyway? It's a big concrete slab of NOTHING.

How can anyone make a strong case to save these buildings that will actually convince their owners to keep them when all of the other retail surrounding GLM has already been destroyed? Offices and the Holland Center + parking for those two things it is, then.

I hate losing the architecture/history as much as anyone, but you've gotta be realistic.
Capital District will have retail, rumors of ground level retail in the HDR Headquarters, what ever is eventually built in the surface lots on 11th and Farnam will have retail. Saying this are is going to stay dead so there is no point in saving hundred year old buildings from unnecessary destruction is very short sighted.
I wasn't speaking of my personal opinion, I was just saying that it'll be very hard to convince the owners that there is reason to keep these buildings if they are already leaning toward letting them go. A few posts up I say that it would be a shame to lose these buildings.
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GetUrban
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by GetUrban »

Unfortunately, the building/property owners are most likely looking for ways to maximize their profits, whether they redevelop the property themselves and lease it out, or sell it to someone else to redevelop. Up to this point, they've thought keeping the buildings is the best thing to do, probably not solely for preservation but also to make a modest profit. Due to increased demand an opportunity must now be presenting itself to greatly increase their profit.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
Midwestern
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Midwestern »

Exactly. My point is that if there was other retail around that corridor, it would make more sense for those buildings to be able to be redeveloped, and the owners would be more willing to go that route, one would assume.

I mean goodness gracious, we lost 7 or 8 whole city blocks full of buildings just from GLM/Jobbers Canyon alone. Whether you like GLM or not, its creation greatly disrupted the urban fabric. Hence, we're in the situation we're at right now with these few remaining historic buildings we have left on this specific corridor.

People say GLM is one big reason the rest of DT started getting re-vitalized, but it also directly and indirectly caused the loss of a lot of stuff north of Farnam. You win some, you lose some.

That being said... I really hope these buildings stay. Once the Capitol District and HDR are done, that 3-block stretch of 11th could be a nice corridor.

And as others have said.... there is room for a parking garage without touching the buildings.

How about an L shaped structure that has ground level retail of course, but that also has apartments in the northeast corner of that greenspace?
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iamjacobm
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by iamjacobm »

Downtown is changing though. There will be 1000 new workers, 200 residential workers and 300 hotel rooms added to the immediate north of this area in the coming years. Those people will want lunch options and services and will likely put the park to use. I understand that there have been issues with the development in the past, but that doesn't mean we have to perpetuate those mistakes and block off GLM even more.
daveoma
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by daveoma »

iamjacobm wrote:I just think its ironic how this past week there was a bunch of pub about how the Holland has changed Omaha's cultural scene and has become a hub for the arts ect. You would think an organization that prides itself on things like that would have a different perspective about a city's past than this.
Yeah and that article in the world herald in my opinion heavily overstated the impact of the Holland center on the neighborhood. They tried saying that the status of downtown redevelopment was uncertain. WOW? It had already accelerated after the century link center.
daveoma
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by daveoma »

I wanted to comment in their Facebook but they disabled comments. We should send that picture Mr Omaha created and suggest they consider the preservation of their community's history.
ricko
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by ricko »

It's astonishing to me that the people who run the Holland Center, an organization that is apparently representative of Omaha's cultural elite, can be such shortsighted clods. I really hope there is an all-out organized effort to fight these people. If they really cared about the city's architectural heritage, they'd find a way to incorporate these structures into their design, like other cities have done.
SaveOmaha
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by SaveOmaha »

Don't worry, the fight is coming. Good stuff is brewing. The owners apparently do not want to sell.
Last edited by SaveOmaha on Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coyote
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Coyote »

SaveOmaha wrote:Don't worry, the fight is coming. Good stuff is brewing. The owners do not want to sell.

I am very glad to hear this! :yes:
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by MTO »

That's cool, they'll just schedule another "accident".
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SaveOmaha
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by SaveOmaha »

Comment deleted.
Last edited by SaveOmaha on Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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iamjacobm
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by iamjacobm »

Gotta love this town sometimes.
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iamjacobm
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by iamjacobm »

http://landmark.cityofomaha.org/christi ... -building/
The Christian Specht building is the only extant cast-iron front building known in Nebraska and one of a very few ever built in the state.
BTW this is a city of omaha link. These designations don't mean anything.
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PotatoeEatsFish
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by PotatoeEatsFish »

I have another genius idea, build on top of the buildings. Incorporate it into the new building, don't tear it down.
#SaveTheUglyGrainSilos2024
mr. omaha
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by mr. omaha »

I can't believe they aren't even considering using the garage directly across the street.
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dto
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by dto »

I am also hearing eminent domain will be used if there is a fight i put up
MTO
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by MTO »

Getting my popcorn now, I put some money down on the city don't even care what the o/u is.
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skinzfan23
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by skinzfan23 »

For downtown parking, something’s got to go — and it could be historic buildings at 11th and Douglas

Image

Image

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I know some people have been really against Stothert but you gotta hand it to her on this one....she doesn't want the old buildings torn down. She has been known to stick up for what she believes in and gets her way, so lets hope that happens with this as well.
Mayor Jean Stothert told The World-Herald on Tuesday that the old buildings would be demolished only if their owners are willing to sell to Omaha Performing Arts, which owns and operates the Holland Center. If the owners of the old buildings don’t want to sell, Stothert said, the city has offered Omaha Performing Arts some “viable alternatives” for parking so that the HDR project can move ahead.

“We think the buildings ought to be left alone, first, but if they are going to be taken, it ought to be for something very, very nice and something that everyone in the city can be proud of,” said Larry Jobeun, an attorney for building owners Todd Simon and Alvine Engineering.

Stothert said Omaha Performing Arts officials “didn’t like the options we presented, but I think they’re good, viable options.”
Her alternatives include building a taller garage in a part of the same block not occupied by the old buildings, and parking arrangements with nearby garages.

“When you look at parking downtown, you’ve got to look at the whole picture,” she said. “There’s plenty of parking in garages downtown without taking those buildings down.” The mayor said she doesn’t favor the use of eminent domain, a process governments can use to acquire property for public use if private owners don’t want to sell. She said the city shouldn’t use eminent domain for a parking garage, especially if, as in this case, one of the buildings has been designated as a historic landmark.
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by MTO »

Where's the Kickstarter to relocate them at?
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Brad
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

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dto wrote:I am also hearing eminent domain will be used if there is a fight i put up
Steve Jordon / World-Herald staff writer wrote:The mayor said she doesn’t favor the use of eminent domain, a process governments can use to acquire property for public use if private owners don’t want to sell. She said the city shouldn’t use eminent domain for a parking garage, especially if, as in this case, one of the buildings has been designated as a historic landmark.
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Brad
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Brad »

By the way, that story and map completely ignore the fact that there is a GIANT 6 story, full block, parking garage directly across the street that sits empty most nights an weekends... The Holland is a night and weekend business...

Image
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GetUrban
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by GetUrban »

Apparently, 300' is much too far to walk for Holland patrons after 10 years. I'm surprised their is no talk or mention of sharing a garage with the new HDR HQ building. The Performing Arts Society (PAS) originally bought the site for the parking. It wasn't too far away then. A tunnel or skywalk connection to an HDR garage, or the other garage, from the Holland could easily be built.

I'm glad the Mayor appears to be publicly against tearing down the historic buildings...hope she can hold her ground, along with preservation advocates, against PAS and the Aksarben kings and fathers of queens elite. HDR seems real quiet about the whole deal. They must be siding with PAS, since they designed the Holland along with Polshek (NYC firm) It appears the building owners must have their own designs for compatible solutions that would either save the buildings or provide street-level life fronting the GLM, but those designs are being rejected by PAS. If HDR's design is so great for the city, they should go public with it so we can see it and have a say in how our city is built.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
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iamjacobm
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by iamjacobm »

HDR probably doesn't want any snags in their HQ development with PAS owning the lot.
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GetUrban
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by GetUrban »

iamjacobm wrote:HDR probably doesn't want any snags in their HQ development with PAS owning the lot.
They could have a lease to PAS for X number of stalls, in the HDR garage, to be available after hours for Holland patrons. I assuume HDR (or an HDR-owned investment holding company) will buy the land parcels for the HDR building site from PAS and the city. I could be wrong.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
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iamjacobm
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by iamjacobm »

But the parking wont be available while the building is constructed.
mr. omaha
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by mr. omaha »

Brad wrote:By the way, that story and map completely ignore the fact that there is a GIANT 6 story, full block, parking garage directly across the street that sits empty most nights an weekends... The Holland is a night and weekend business...

Image
NO KIDDING!!!!!!!!!

They could even build a skywalk across Dodge if people are THAT lazy!!!
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Brad
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Brad »

mr. omaha wrote:They could even build a skywalk across Dodge if people are THAT lazy!!!
The could probably even negotiate the skywalk in with HDR...
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GetUrban
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by GetUrban »

iamjacobm wrote:But the parking wont be available while the building is constructed.
They should be able to work-out a temporary deal with nearby lots/garages for the couple of years it will take to construct the HDR HQ. It's hard to believe there would not be enough spaces available in the interim.

Gottchalk said they were thinking very long term, but it appears they are just looking a couple of years ahead. Tearing down a 130 year-old one-of-a-kind National Register building for parking? Give me a break!
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
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Globochem
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Globochem »

This is insane. Has anyone been to the Holland? The green space is enormous. There is more than enough room for a parking structure. Not to mention the legion of other parking structures in very close proximity. These buildings are the few remaining of their kind, are well situated, and I'll say again, pose absolutely no impedance to an adjacent parking structure. There is something else at play here.
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GetUrban
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by GetUrban »

We Don't Coast...... Historic Buildings? .....They're Toast.
Last edited by GetUrban on Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
mr. omaha
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by mr. omaha »

Image
Last edited by mr. omaha on Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Linkin5
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Linkin5 »

^Those are great, please send them to the mayor's office and Holland Center.
Midwestern
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Midwestern »

Um... the existing parking garage to the north is closer to the Holland than the HDR surface lot they are using now.

And of course, there's plenty of room to build some sort of parking garage on the existing greenspace without touching the buildings.

It just doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by MadMartin8 »

I'm no structural engineer, so I must ask, how hard it is to add levels to a parking garage if needed?
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Professor Woland
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Professor Woland »

When they tore down the Clarinda I was thrilled. First, the owners wanted to sell so Mutual owned the property fair and square, so whatever they did with it was their business. Second, the Clarinda was an abomination, aesthetically the city would be better off with a weedy field than that pile of |expletive|. In this case, the buildings don't want to sell and the buildings are actually pretty cool, so I'm doubly opposed to any plan to take these buildings down. Stealing peoples' property to tear down some interesting old buildings for a parking garage is an awful idea on just about every level.
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GetUrban
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by GetUrban »

It's looking like the PAS finally found a way to follow through on their attempt to demolish the buildings 10 years ago...now that HDR needs PAS's newly acquired parking lot for a new HQ building. How convenient. This stinks.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
daveoma
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by daveoma »

mr. omaha wrote:
Brad wrote:By the way, that story and map completely ignore the fact that there is a GIANT 6 story, full block, parking garage directly across the street that sits empty most nights an weekends... The Holland is a night and weekend business...

Image
NO KIDDING!!!!!!!!!

They could even build a skywalk across Dodge if people are THAT lazy!!!
:clap: well said
Midwestern
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Re: Holland's Greenspace

Post by Midwestern »

I wonder how much money it would cost to build a new 3 story brick building and then move the facade from the Specht building to the new brick building.
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