W. Dale Clark Library

[yard salad]

I'm glad that this building is on the chopping block. It's like a castle with a literal moat and seems purpose-built to keep people and its surroundings at arm's length. I remember walking through a public library in Montreal - it had a 24/7 accessible hallway that pedestrians could use to cut across the city block through the building. It was like a real community gathering spot.

Did it have any issues with homeless living there? Thinking about some of the issues with Omaha's library and if it went 24 X7 could make it worse.

Greg

we went in the summer, so all the parks had homeless in them. the library was fine, though.

[RNcyanide]

There was an article a while back about the police department getting mad at the library because nearly 1 in 10 calls over the span of a year was from them having issues with the homeless or people getting weird in there. The library has caught numerous people surfing porn or having sex in the stairwells, just to name a few issues.

[MTO]

Well if libraries weren't so romantic...

[daveoma]

There was an article a while back about the police department getting mad at the library because nearly 1 in 10 calls over the span of a year was from them having issues with the homeless or people getting weird in there. The library has caught numerous people surfing porn or having sex in the stairwells, just to name a few issues.

Sounds like there's an underserved market for a bathhouse.

[GRANDPASMUCKER]

Lets see if I can get this straight. Its alright to tear down a perfectly fine pretty cool looking Library but its not cool to tear down 3 little scrungy old buildings to make way for a nice new headquarters for HDR. I got it. Dont git it but I got it. The library should stay as well as the Civic auditorium. The Civic and the Library building are whats known as valuable public assets and those 3 buildings that got saved that screwed the HDR deal are whats known as semi-worthless dumps. I know I suck and everyone else is cool! I will promise you this that if they do tear down the Civic and the Library I wont be sitting around crying about it 20 years from now like those Jobbers Canyons die hards.

[nativeomahan]

Exactly what financially viable use do you propose for the Civic? Whatever it is, literally no one else has figured it out yet.

[Coyote]

Exactly what financially viable use do you propose for the Civic? Whatever it is, literally no one else has figured it out yet.

Also, what architectural or historical significance did the Civic have? Grandpa is trolling again.

[GRANDPASMUCKER]

Exactly what financially viable use do you propose for the Civic? Whatever it is, literally no one else has figured it out yet.

Also, what architectural or historical significance did the Civic have? Grandpa is trolling again.

The fact that we shelled out millions for upgrades to the Civic for years just to tear it down may not offend you but in reality it is a travesty. What a waste. Spin it how you may, but its all just a never ending scam on the tax payers.

[RockHarbor]

I'm all for a new library on that site or elswhere, but as already talked about, I would think they would be very careful what they allow to go-in there with that "postcard shot" of the city at stake. Let's remember, those Central Park Plaza twins were designed as a focal point at the end of that mall. Why would they cover them up, and mess with that unique, signature view of Omaha? Or, are they meaning they would just sell the library as an office building, and keep the original building intact, while the new library goes elsewhere?

We aren't necessarily talking about tearing down a 1975 building, are we? That's what I was kinda thinking at first with the talk here of HDR, and the idea of a new headquarters on the site. Since their planned headquarters was 13 stories or so, I'm assuming they don't mean HDR was actually looking at the building itself, but the site, right?

[GetUrban]

I'm all for a new library on that site or elswhere, but as already talked about, I would think they would be very careful what they allow to go-in there with that "postcard shot" of the city at stake. Let's remember, those Central Park Plaza twins were designed as a focal point at the end of that mall. Why would they cover them up, and mess with that unique, signature view of Omaha? Or, are they meaning they would just sell the library as an office building, and keep the original building intact, while the new library goes elsewhere?

We aren't necessarily talking about tearing down a 1975 building, are we? That's what I was kinda thinking at first with the talk here of HDR, and the idea of a new headquarters on the site. Since their planned headquarters was 13 stories or so, I'm assuming they don't mean HDR was actually looking at the building itself, but the site, right?

I think we could do better than the "twins" for our "postcard" shot. There surely is a way to design a new high-rise, with new library space included, that wouldn't block the entire view of the twins, but add some more interest. Back to reality though....it's highly doubtful HDR will want to move to that site and the city can barely maintain the library system as is. Very hard to believe such a conservative mayor could pull this off without some major painful cuts from budgets elsewhere.

On the other hand, you have to ask..."do we really need a new library downtown" I'd like to see the old UP site or the site HDR was looking at get developed first...or the S.O.B. site.

[daveoma]

Lets see if I can get this straight. Its alright to tear down a perfectly fine pretty cool looking Library but its not cool to tear down 3 little scrungy old buildings to make way for a nice new headquarters for HDR. I got it. Dont git it but I got it. The library should stay as well as the Civic auditorium. The Civic and the Library building are whats known as valuable public assets and those 3 buildings that got saved that screwed the HDR deal are whats known as semi-worthless dumps. I know I suck and everyone else is cool! I will promise you this that if they do tear down the Civic and the Library I wont be sitting around crying about it 20 years from now like those Jobbers Canyons die hards.

With all due respect the blame does not lie with the preservationists, rather it lies with the former mayor, republican Hal Daub. He's the one who desired and advocated for renovations of the Civic. I agree it was wasteful!

[bigredmed]

Lets see if I can get this straight. Its alright to tear down a perfectly fine pretty cool looking Library but its not cool to tear down 3 little scrungy old buildings to make way for a nice new headquarters for HDR. I got it. Dont git it but I got it. The library should stay as well as the Civic auditorium. The Civic and the Library building are whats known as valuable public assets and those 3 buildings that got saved that screwed the HDR deal are whats known as semi-worthless dumps. I know I suck and everyone else is cool! I will promise you this that if they do tear down the Civic and the Library I wont be sitting around crying about it 20 years from now like those Jobbers Canyons die hards.

Yep.

[GetUrban]

I will promise you this that if they do tear down the Civic and the Library I wont be sitting around crying about it 20 years from now like those Jobbers Canyons die hards.

More resolve than tears by far, directed at convincing others it was a huge mistake. Let's see, what do you think has more value? Six blocks with 1.7 million square feet of space in (20+) 6-9 story, solid, rehab-able buildings that would have easily lasted another 100-200 years, or an undersized, outdated arena full of asbestos that duplicates a newer state of the art arena and convention center a few blocks away. The Library building is still useful and rehab-able too, but not as desirable as the Jobbers buildings would have been. But I forgive you, because you don't know what you don't know.

[RockHarbor]

I think we could do better than the "twins" for our "postcard" shot. There surely is a way to design a new high-rise, with new library space included, that wouldn't block the entire view of the twins, but add some more interest. Back to reality though....it's highly doubtful HDR will want to move to that site and the city can barely maintain the library system as is. Very hard to believe such a conservative mayor could pull this off without some major painful cuts from budgets elsewhere.

On the other hand, you have to ask..."do we really need a new library downtown" I'd like to see the old UP site or the site HDR was looking at get developed first...or the S.O.B. site.

I like the idea of a new library, as it is kind of an "in" thing to get a new library downtown -- one that is fantastic in design. Our downtown library is nothing in the same league as Seattle's or Minneapolis's.

The maroon twins: As long as they don't entirely disrupt the view of them, I'm good. What is the point of them, if they cover them up? Ya know? It would just be plain dumb, and a big mistake, imo, if they do. Even if there was a newly opened lot north of the Space Needle, would you stick a new skyscraper smack-dab in front of it, and block the loved & perfect "postcard view" of the city of Seattle from Queen Anne Hill (the famous view with the Space Needle standing centered in front of the skyline beyond it)? No. That wouldn't be smart at all. So, they shouldn't do it here either. That look we have with the twins & the Woodmen beyond is really unique, and no other city has that set-up (or appearance) but Omaha, Nebraska.

***If "they" actually read this board, and do it just despite us, citizens who care about the good of this town and its aesthetics & appearance, then how much more stupid if they ruin that signature, much-loved view. People in charge of this town should care even MORE than we do, in detail, about this city.***

[GetUrban]

Unfortunately, by the looks of the squatty photo in the header of the City of Omaha home page, it appears they don't really care how the city appears to residents or visitors. That photo could not look much worse.
http://www.cityofomaha.org/

I think another high-rise building could be added on the north half of the library site that would partially block the view of the right (north) twin, and the view would actually be improved with added interest. I agree the MPLS library is a great design.

[Coyote]

Unfortunately, by the looks of the squatty photo in the header of the City of Omaha home page, it appears they don't really care how the city appears to residents or visitors. That photo could not look much worse.
http://www.cityofomaha.org/

I think another high-rise building could be added on the north half of the library site that would partially block the view of the right (north) twin, and the view would actually be improved with added interest. I agree the MPLS library is a great design.

image.jpeg (33.13 KiB) Viewed 2904 times

That is just bad banner graphic, they need a better web master, to try to make the city skyline fit like that is inconceivable.

[GetUrban]

Unfortunately, by the looks of the squatty photo in the header of the City of Omaha home page, it appears they don't really care how the city appears to residents or visitors. That photo could not look much worse.
http://www.cityofomaha.org/

I think another high-rise building could be added on the north half of the library site that would partially block the view of the right (north) twin, and the view would actually be improved with added interest. I agree the MPLS library is a great design.

image.jpeg

That is just bad banner graphic, they need a better web master, to try to make the city skyline fit like that is inconceivable.

I complained to the webmaster and Mayoy's office a couple of years ago. The webmater's response was he didn't see a problem with it and the mayor's office said they revamped their own site and the main site wasn't their concern. It would be one thing if they enhanced the skyline image to look better than reality, but in this case they made it look far, far worse than reality.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Unfortunately, by the looks of the squatty photo in the header of the City of Omaha home page, it appears they don't really care how the city appears to residents or visitors. That photo could not look much worse.
http://www.cityofomaha.org/

I think another high-rise building could be added on the north half of the library site that would partially block the view of the right (north) twin, and the view would actually be improved with added interest. I agree the MPLS library is a great design.

image.jpeg

That is just bad banner graphic, they need a better web master, to try to make the city skyline fit like that is inconceivable.

I complained to the webmaster and Mayoy's office a couple of years ago. The webmater's response was he didn't see a problem with it and the mayor's office said they revamped their own site and the main site wasn't their concern. It would be one thing if they enhanced the skyline image to look better than reality, but in this case they made it look far, far worse than reality.

It's quite awful. But it's been that way for quite awhile now.. And if the mayors office is apathetic about it, which it's obvious they are..that squatty, minimizing Omaha "skyline" banner won't be going away any time soon ...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[S33]

Exactly what financially viable use do you propose for the Civic? Whatever it is, literally no one else has figured it out yet.

Also, what architectural or historical significance did the Civic have? Grandpa is trolling again.

The fact that we shelled out millions for upgrades to the Civic for years just to tear it down may not offend you but in reality it is a travesty. What a waste. Spin it how you may, but its all just a never ending scam on the tax payers.

The waste was shelling out all that money to maintain the Civic, although, for some of those years, there was no other alternative.

Now we have an alternative. Putting any more money into that building, other than for demolition, is also a waste, even more so than it was then.

[Coyote]

The waste was shelling out all that money to maintain the Civic, although, for some of those years, there was no other alternative.

Now we have an alternative. Putting any more money into that building, other than for demolition, is also a waste, even more so than it was then.

The Civic had major tenants when they put the money into it, and with no real alternative for them to go elsewhere. Hindsight is so easy after you decide to put major coin into a new arena.

[S33]

The waste was shelling out all that money to maintain the Civic, although, for some of those years, there was no other alternative.

Now we have an alternative. Putting any more money into that building, other than for demolition, is also a waste, even more so than it was then.

The Civic had major tenants when they put the money into it, and with no real alternative for them to go elsewhere. Hindsight is so easy after you decide to put major coin into a new arena.

thats pretty much where I was going with that. After reading it again, I suppose I wasn't very clear on that.

[Coyote]

The waste was shelling out all that money to maintain the Civic, although, for some of those years, there was no other alternative.

Now we have an alternative. Putting any more money into that building, other than for demolition, is also a waste, even more so than it was then.

The Civic had major tenants when they put the money into it, and with no real alternative for them to go elsewhere. Hindsight is so easy after you decide to put major coin into a new arena.

thats pretty much where I was going with that. After reading it again, I suppose I wasn't very clear on that.

No, I was just confirming what you said.
It was like the time you had to decide if you want to put money in your 2006 Honda Civic or buy a brand new 2016 model, but didn't think you had the coin for a new car. Omaha wasn't even thinking of upgrading back then, really didn't need to, yet, but after that oil seal leak, air conditioning problem, and bad sun roof...

[RockHarbor]

That website does look a bit careless. It surprises me a bit. It reminds me of when you open one of those picture "bargain books" for sale at Barnes & Noble, and whoever put the book together, bought photos from Corbis and other sources. And, although most photos look normal & professional, surprisingly some page-size photos are a bit fuzzy, like the file wasn't large enough (pixel-wise) to be blown-up the size of the page. It is unbelievable & inconceivable to me, they would actually sale a book with a fuzzy picture -- or two -- in it, like that. Same with that site. Practically anybody will notice it is a squat, stretched photo, and it looks careless a bit.

Geturban: I'm truly trying to picture how the view will look better with one tower blocked on the north side. I just can't see it. Those two, twin buildings are made to be an architectural statement as a whole -- like any twin set of buildings are. It's one thing to block the bottoms of the buildings (like the library does in Omaha, or like the World Financial Center did to the former twin WTC towers in NYC). But, you just don't block one twin, and not the other, and expect things to look overall better, imo.

To enhance my point, just imagine them building a 20-story tower on that library site, and the building blocks both the Woodmen & the twins from the park. Even being happy about a new, major building downtown, would we all really be happy about that move? I don't think we would.

[MTO]

You guys are forgetting this is Omaha ergo whatever goes there will only be 16 floors max. Nothing that'll obstruct the woody just replace the twins with something new in the money shot.

[WBR_Tom]

Unfortunately, by the looks of the squatty photo in the header of the City of Omaha home page, it appears they don't really care how the city appears to residents or visitors. That photo could not look much worse.
http://www.cityofomaha.org/

I think another high-rise building could be added on the north half of the library site that would partially block the view of the right (north) twin, and the view would actually be improved with added interest. I agree the MPLS library is a great design.

image.jpeg

That is just bad banner graphic, they need a better web master, to try to make the city skyline fit like that is inconceivable.

I complained to the webmaster and Mayoy's office a couple of years ago. The webmater's response was he didn't see a problem with it and the mayor's office said they revamped their own site and the main site wasn't their concern. It would be one thing if they enhanced the skyline image to look better than reality, but in this case they made it look far, far worse than reality.

I worked on a project four or five years ago with the City on a "mini-site" that was to be hosted on the main domain for one of the departments. The amount of red tape, approvals, and hoops we had to jump through to get the files uploaded was pretty onerous, even by the standards of government work. But anyway, as part of that process we discussed the header image (and some overall UI/UX thoughts) with them, and got more or less the same response you did, GetUrban. There's no problem with it! What do you mean it's distorted? Why spend time fixing something only a "graphic designer" would notice anyway?

[RockHarbor]

You guys are forgetting this is Omaha ergo whatever goes there will only be 16 floors max. Nothing that'll obstruct the woody just replace the twins with something new in the money shot.

You guys!! I can't believe the lack of care if the twins are covered up, or not. What? Do I have to picket downtown with a sign: "Don't Cover The Twins" if something is proposed on the library lot?? haha (I'm laughing because most people driving by wouldn't know what that sign's caption really meant.)

Again, those twins are not made to be covered up from the park's view. They were designed as a focal point at the end of the park. Besides, Omaha's emerging skyline will be way more pleasing keeping the Woodmen + the twins intact, and having new skyscrapers & buildings popping up around it all -- just like the Tower at FNC and UP Headquarters.

[MTO]

You guys are forgetting this is Omaha ergo whatever goes there will only be 16 floors max. Nothing that'll obstruct the woody just replace the twins with something new in the money shot.

You guys!! I can't believe the lack of care if the twins are covered up, or not. What? Do I have to picket downtown with a sign: "Don't Cover The Twins" if something is proposed on the library lot?? haha (I'm laughing because most people driving by wouldn't know what that sign's caption really meant.)

Again, those twins are not made to be covered up from the park's view. They were designed as a focal point at the end of the park. Besides, Omaha's emerging skyline will be way more pleasing keeping the Woodmen + the twins intact, and having new skyscrapers & buildings popping up around it all -- just like the Tower at FNC and UP Headquarters.

OH man the public's combined tears filled a mote around HDR's first proposal is there going to be another foot stomping over the next downtown highrise proposal?

[RockHarbor]

You guys are forgetting this is Omaha ergo whatever goes there will only be 16 floors max. Nothing that'll obstruct the woody just replace the twins with something new in the money shot.

You guys!! I can't believe the lack of care if the twins are covered up, or not. What? Do I have to picket downtown with a sign: "Don't Cover The Twins" if something is proposed on the library lot?? haha (I'm laughing because most people driving by wouldn't know what that sign's caption really meant.)

Again, those twins are not made to be covered up from the park's view. They were designed as a focal point at the end of the park. Besides, Omaha's emerging skyline will be way more pleasing keeping the Woodmen + the twins intact, and having new skyscrapers & buildings popping up around it all -- just like the Tower at FNC and UP Headquarters.

OH man the public's combined tears filled a mote around HDR's first proposal is there going to be another foot stomping over the next downtown highrise proposal?

Lol. If it blocks the twins, I'll stomp a little... I don't know how much the general public cares, though. But, I'm surprised that I feel like the only one (or one of the few) here that cares. I'm just very into architectural statements & aesthetics. They are important to me.

Looking down the Gene Leahy Mall, I thoroughly appreciate the twins standing together, mirror-image opposites, reaching outward w/ their slanting angles. It is simple geometry, but it makes quite a statement that has accented the Woodmen Tower since the early 80's. I just don't like seeing that statement lost. (For example, the WTC twin towers in NYC received so much architectural criticism while they stood, but now that they are gone, NYC misses the iconic towers that were an established part of the cityscape. Personally, I don't like NYC as well w/out them either.)

Again, before I even read they were designed as a focal point at the end of the park, I already knew they were meant as an architectural statement viewed from the park, knowing they went up immediately after the park was put in. You can just tell by looking at them, the mindset behind them. So, why cover that up? You wouldn't stick another set of twins in front of them. That would be dumb. So, setting a squarish building in front of them (totally obstructing the clear view of them from the park, the appreciation of them now restricted to the street fronting them alone, having to look up at them from street level) also is dumb, imo.

[MTO]

Well HDR wanted slim structure facing the south for that glorious UV radiation so we'd still get to see one of the twins "righty".

[RockHarbor]

You're not saying HDR is actually considering that site, are you? I thought they were shown it, then declined. Right? Furthermore, you don't do that kind of half-interruption in front of a perfectly symmetrical, twin set of office buildings, set as a focal point at the end of a long, narrow park. Rewind the clock to the late 1970's, Omaha had no long, narrow, watery park. Then, it was carved into downtown. At the end of the park, two twin maroon office buildings were erected w/ the Woodmen Tower beyond, creating an exciting brand new look for Omaha, one that worked & worked well. Now, some 35 years later, we are just carelessly going to throw all that out the window? Our signature postcard view ruined? A certain memorable look that is found in nowhere else on the Continent? What would Des Moines & Kansas City think? Are they going to snicker at what a dumb move we made?

[damonhynes]

I'm old. I remember going to the old library on Leavenworth(?) while W. Dale was being built. I was a research freak and the bound volumes of Oil and Gas Journal, Aviation Week and Space Technology, National Geographic...I'd spend weekends down there.

I went down to W. Dale last year for the first time on over 25 years. There were no homeless that I could see, but the place looked like a daycare. Not a place for research anymore, more of a community center. To be honest, not many books at all an that whole five story building.

And the bound volumes of back issues of scholarly journals--gone, to $Deity knows where. Maybe UNO? Who knows.

Point is, W. Dale isn't a library any more. Blow it up, no great loss.

[NEDodger]

I like the idea of a new library, as it is kind of an "in" thing to get a new library downtown -- one that is fantastic in design. Our downtown library is nothing in the same league as Seattle's or Minneapolis's.

Um, to be fair Omaha isn't in the same league as Seattle or Minneapolis.

[GetUrban]

Geturban: I'm truly trying to picture how the view will look better with one tower blocked on the north side. I just can't see it. Those two, twin buildings are made to be an architectural statement as a whole -- like any twin set of buildings are. It's one thing to block the bottoms of the buildings (like the library does in Omaha, or like the World Financial Center did to the former twin WTC towers in NYC). But, you just don't block one twin, and not the other, and expect things to look overall better, imo.

To enhance my point, just imagine them building a 20-story tower on that library site, and the building blocks both the Woodmen & the twins from the park. Even being happy about a new, major building downtown, would we all really be happy about that move? I don't think we would.

I can understand where you're coming from if you truly like those twin buildings. It must be the symmetry you like and the way they frame the end of the park. I'm not terribly fond of those buildings and consider them background buildings, more than an amazing centerpiece, like capitol buildings often are. In my opinion, those building are not of the same caliber design-wise as say, I.M. Pei's National Gallery on the Mall in DC. Or the Nebraska State Capitol. Maybe I just don't like them because they were created for ConAgra, I don't know.

Anyway, the massing I was thinking of is represented by this quick model inserted into Google Earth. Don't take this image too literally. It obviously would need a lot more development to become a worthy design. This just shows what a 25 story (or so) building might look like and how it could be placed to enhance the view, not block everything. Once you seen one twin, your mind knows what the other one looks like. I guess you have to ask the question: are the twins so great that you should never ever mess with that part of the skyline again? I'd still rather see the old UP and 11th-12-Capitol-Dodge blocks filled-in first before the Library site is redone.

[GetUrban]

I like the idea of a new library, as it is kind of an "in" thing to get a new library downtown -- one that is fantastic in design. Our downtown library is nothing in the same league as Seattle's or Minneapolis's.

Um, to be fair Omaha isn't in the same league as Seattle or Minneapolis.

True, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to be!

[RockHarbor]

GetUrban: Thanks for the Photoshop. I was hoping somebody would do that (if it wasn't me first). Your Photoshop makes me excited for a new building downtown, but it also confirms what I have felt all along: Don't mess with the view of those symmetrical twin office buildings set perfectly centered at the end of the long, narrow park -- a complex the same width of the park.

It's not that I'm "in love" with the twin towers, it's more that I don't think we should carelessly mess with their symmetrical, signature architectural statement that was purposefully designed to suit Omaha's skyline at the very end of the long, narrow park. They were designed as a purposeful focal point, and that they are. Who doesn't like Omaha's unique, aligned "park + library + twins + Woodmen" set up? Hardly nobody, if anybody, I am sure. So, why mess it up? This is the deal: The twins aren't iconic buildings in Omaha, like the Space Needle is in Seattle. But, they help create our signature look.

ALSO: They red twins mixed with the white Woodmen create the color combo of what football team?! The CORNHUSKERS!! Perfect colors on Omaha, Nebraska's skyline.

NEDodger: Well, I get that. That's why I have never whined: "Why doesn't Omaha have a library as neat as Minneapolis or Seattle?" But, with current talk in town of getting a new downtown library, I automatically think of the cities that have a neat, new one, and it makes me happy to think about Omaha getting a new one. Even Des Moines has a neat downtown library.

DamonHynes: I don't think they automatically need to get rid of the building, if we get a new library downtown. I don't know why they can't just convert it to office space. An office building isn't normally centered on a block, like that library (or courthouse) is. Yet, I don't think it would make a bad office building, or anything.

Even if they tore down the library and built a new shorter, 5-6 story office building in its place that didn't block the twins, I still think I would be nervous. The existing downtown library building, a block with the horizontal windows, we are used to. It goes just fine with the twin buildings and the Woodmen beyond it (and the dark horizontal stripes echo the phone building). Would a new building go better?

I've been kinda "barky" on this issue involving the twin buildings. But, I'm not sure people are seeing the value of them, like I do.

[RockHarbor]

Here's a photo of Omaha when the park and those twins were new. Seeing it all new, I think, helps remind us of the architectural statement they were designed to make. Since special care and thought was put into that, and it turned out well, I don't think Omaha should just "throw all that out the window" because we've decided to move books down the street.

[RockHarbor]

Here's two more shots from the early/mid 80's.

[bigredmed]

Could someone remind me of why we are going to tear down the library?

[RNcyanide]

Could someone remind me of why we are going to tear down the library?

Because a puff-piece article from the OWH told us to.

[MadMartin8]

Could someone remind me of why we are going to tear down the library?

Because it offends the architectural sensibilities of the crowd, of course. Or something.