16th Street Master Plan

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Yeah the "logic" was that if streetcars were put on 16th, people would avoid driving there because it would create congestion like the buses to now.  :banghead: Don't worry though, I corrected their thinking.

Good.  But the thing that scares the |expletive| out of me in regards to that thinking is there are still a ton of people that feel that way.

Correction: It should scare you that there are people who live Downtown on 16th st who feel that way.

The other thing in that meeting that made me want to pull my hair out was this guy in our group who said in a couple years we should look at demolishing every building between 15th and 17th and Douglas and Harney. He said they were old and wouldn't be viable much longer. Well this dumbass is on the DT Improvement District Board.

Whawhawhaaaat!!!!

[Brad]

Why can't we educate these people before we let them submit ideas on the cities future.

[cdub]

Or just shoot them.  Wow, that guy is spectacularly retarded.

[RegisResident]

Yeah the "logic" was that if streetcars were put on 16th, people would avoid driving there because it would create congestion like the buses to now.  :banghead: Don't worry though, I corrected their thinking.

Good.  But the thing that scares the |expletive| out of me in regards to that thinking is there are still a ton of people that feel that way.

Correction: It should scare you that there are people who live Downtown on 16th st who feel that way.

The other thing in that meeting that made me want to pull my hair out was this guy in our group who said in a couple years we should look at demolishing every building between 15th and 17th and Douglas and Harney. He said they were old and wouldn't be viable much longer. Well this dumbass is on the DT Improvement District Board.

Any idea what the guys name was? I'm curious who on the DID thinks we should do something like that. I wonder if it was the same guy on WOWT who said he was on the DID board but isn't actually on it.

[DTO Luv]

The one guy who said to demolish everything was named Kevin. There was another guy named Joe something.

[cdub]

Joe Gudenrath is the executive director.  I'd be surprised if he ever put his foot in his mouth.  Hes pretty astute.  This Kevin guy scares me.

[DTO Luv]

I know who Joe Gudenrath is. This was a different Joe in my group.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

The only Kevin on the board is Kevin Merritt - Vice President, Large Property Representative of First National Bank. Here's his e-mail kmerritt@fnni.com  :)

[DTO Luv]

That would be him.

[2Adam29]

well as much as we all love those buildings, its possible some more modern options downtown could help sell space. IF the buildings are becoming to costly to maintain, by all means, if First National wants to pull a Midtown Crossing style development on us, I'm fair game.

Or he could be a nut. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'd love to keep the buildings, but I'd like to know what all options are.

[RegisResident]

Hmm... I don't think Kevin would say something like that- much like Joe G., Kevin is also very careful about his comments.

Did they talk about all the blank walls/garage entrances from douglas to farnam on 16th? Were any ideas discussed on how to connect the area near brandeis/FNB to the area near the orpheum? I'm surprised the city let brandeis add a parking garage entrance on 16th St. when they already have a huge parking garage behind the building on 17th.

[DTO Luv]

Did they talk about all the blank walls/garage entrances from douglas to farnam on 16th?  

I brought this up in my group and I was met with blank stares. No one seemed to have any idea what I was talking about. I and Josh mentioned in our groups about replacing or retrofitting existing garages on the street with new mixed use parking structures and NO ONE could wrap their heads around it. They kept saying "Well where will people park then?" It was also like none of those people (especially the ones on the DID) had ever heard the term mixed use and had no idea how a parking garage could be anything other than a parking garage.

[Brad]

Probably because we don't have anything that cool around here for people to see... you should arm yourself with a photo album with all your ideas next time you go.   Its much easier to understand photos than words.

[DTO Luv]

I even told them Lincoln had perfect examples of what I was talking about and still, deer in headlights.

[Brad]

The one with the Applebee's in it.

Even so, most average people don't notice things like that.  I think a bunch of pics would help.

[DTO Luv]

Even so, most average people don't notice things like that.  

Normally I would agree with you but if you're going to set up a special taxing district to help make a better Downtown and you run for board position on this group then you better not be an average person. These people should know what the f*ck I'm talking about. This is completely unacceptable that this group is sound resoundingly* inept just like that stupid bi+ch who was in charge last year that made $75,000 a year sitting on her |expletive| cutting out paper dolls and buying pocket size ash trays.  :banghead:

[Brad]

On an "experience level", your know more experienced than they were.  Your hobby just happens to be city development.  They invited residents not experts.

[DTO Luv]

On an "experience level", your know more experienced than they were.  Your hobby just happens to be city development.  They invited residents not experts.

These guys aren't just residents. They are elected people who's singular task is to guide/foster DT development. If they have no idea how to achieve those goals or what the goals should even be then they shouldn't be there.

[Big E]

Also keep in mind that this DID was originally going to have ZERO input from elected reps.  It was originally 100% made up of people that represented the biggest business interests until the residents (who were also being taxed) went rightfully apesh!t*.

It has reeked of redundancy, incompetence and cronyism from its conception. Honestly, I don't think it was ever intended to be anything other than a way to bilk some people with relatively high property taxes per foot out of some extra money.

* - That's not to say the businesses can't have their own DID, but don't tax the residents for it.  Something about taxation without representation...  I'm pretty sure it's in the Bible, but I took my kid out of class that day because the President was going to tell him to stay in school.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

DTO, I'm with you 100% on this. If these were actually elected members of the DID board, then this reprehensible and completely unacceptable.

Oh, believe me, I DEFINITELY know the deer in the headlight look you are talking about. Sometimes when trying to explain a concept in urban planning/design to "average folk", concepts which any reasonably logical person should be able to grasp, it's like talking to a pincushion.

[Brad]

Well whoever they are, elected, residents, homeless from the bus stop on 16th street, it doesn't matter, because every Street Car, Master Plan, 16th street, whatever, that I have ever seen has idiots at it.  You should plan on stupid people being there and prepare accordingly aka visual aids.  I would do more than complaining on here after the fact.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

I totally agree that it would be great to have a "portfolio" of sorts to show people examples of these concepts done right in other cities.

[DTO Luv]

Brad, this is like if I became somehow in charge of NASCAR. I would be just as clueless as these people if I was in charge of NASCAR. THe only thing I could think to tell anyone is "drive fast". That's about as much as these people knew. Maybe Sarah Palin as President is a more apt comparison.

I also don't know if you get that these were not lay people. The group I ended up in was actually people who work for the city in some capacity and also are on the DID board. Josh's group had mostly lay people and there wasn't a difference in what the paid, elected people said vs what Grandma Condo owner and Sharonda the Bus Rider said. There should be.

[Brad]

First off I am not defending idiots at these meetings.

Just because they work for the city doesn't mean they know how to "do things right".   Omaha is really bad at "This is the way its always been".  Its your job as a progressive young citizen to go to these meetings and inform them that there are better ways of doing things.   That's what happens when you use "The good ol boy" system(example, Suttle hiring a friend that was not even qualified).  Its great that the guy from HDR is in charge of these meetings, as proof with the downtown masterplan, he filters out all the garbage.

[DTO Luv]

Just because they work for the city doesn't mean they know how to "do things right".    

Exactly

[Brad]

David Brown discussed 16th street on Grow Omaha.  Talked about the need for diagonal parking.  Also a need to make people want to walk down 16th to get a bite to eat or a drink.

[DTO Luv]

Well there's got to be places for them to eat and drink at first.

[Brad]

Well there's got to be places for them to eat and drink at first.

I think that's what was meant by "need"....

[RegisResident]

There are places to eat- Doozy's (although it would be nice if they were open past 2), King Fong, Panda House, and soon Signatures Lounge.

Anyone see the story on 16th St. tonight on WOWT (http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/62759022.html)? The group they interviewed is the group that is constantly causing problems on the street. I personally have called the cops on the group at least half a dozen times. The story makes 16th sound like you're going to get shot if you walk down it after 5, which isn't the case at all. After seeing the story, I walked out and talked to Justin Joseph and told him that they had the wrong business in the video (they showed Doozy's instead of Signatures) and that he interviewed the group that causes the problems, not the people that are trying to make the street better.

I should have also mentioned that the city owns the boarded up Lerner Building that is falling apart- maybe he could do a story on it and actually get the city to do something with it.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Wow, what sloppy, superficial, bush-league reporting.

Not only do they paint a horribly inaccurate picture of Downtown which "coincidentally" plays right into the stereotypes that people from the suburbs or rural areas have about Downtown, but look at these grammatical errors and typos!

A new restaurant and lounge will open in a what can be a rough part of downtown Omaha.

Those we spoke with downtown says you'll also find guns, drugs and violence.

At city council, Kellogg eventually got his liquor license.

THREE glaring examples from a very short little write-up.

[thenewguy]

i wonder how successful another newspaper in Omaha would be.  Before joining the forum, I never realized how mixed up the world herald gets.  Then again, i don't read the world herald regularly, so that could be part of it.

Anyway...

Why doesn't the city push to have it developed with legitimate retail?  Nordstroms, Target, Saks, etc, would be good fits downtown.  We've all mentioned this like a million times before.  Instead, there are many efforts to push for new developments outside of downtown like MTC.  I know that Mutual is footing the bill, and i love the project, but why doesn't the city work something out with businesses to make the area more attractive to developers?  If there are new projects going up for hundreds of millions of dollars and starting from scratch, there should surely be someone out there that would gather up the gusto to do something in the core of the city.  Until they add more shopping, living essentials (drug store, laundry, etc), and dining outside of the old market, most people will be generally reluctant to move downtown, and downtown will never see the full revival we're all hoping for.

[RegisResident]

This afternoon I noticed a bunch of construction looking guys around the Lerner building- it looks like they might be inspecting it. I saw them in front, on the roof, walking around it. Maybe the city is finally going to do something with this property.

[GetUrban]

i wonder how successful another newspaper in Omaha would be.  Before joining the forum, I never realized how mixed up the world herald gets.  Then again, i don't read the world herald regularly, so that could be part of it.

Anyway...

Why doesn't the city push to have it developed with legitimate retail?  Nordstroms, Target, Saks, etc, would be good fits downtown.  We've all mentioned this like a million times before.  Instead, there are many efforts to push for new developments outside of downtown like MTC.  I know that Mutual is footing the bill, and i love the project, but why doesn't the city work something out with businesses to make the area more attractive to developers?  If there are new projects going up for hundreds of millions of dollars and starting from scratch, there should surely be someone out there that would gather up the gusto to do something in the core of the city.  Until they add more shopping, living essentials (drug store, laundry, etc), and dining outside of the old market, most people will be generally reluctant to move downtown, and downtown will never see the full revival we're all hoping for.

Those major retailers WOULD likely want to locate downtown if they felt there was a customer base large and willing enough to support a downtown location. Another factor is I'm sure there would be serious resistance if a major retailer wanted to come in and clear historic buildings (along 16th st.) to make room for their typical current prototype department store configuration. Target, on the other hand, does have a two-story store on Nicolette Mall in Minneapolis. Maybe something like that could fit into one of the existing structures along 16th. At the current pace of development, I don't think you'll see large scale retail back downtown for another 10 years, at least. It would be great if it could happen sooner though....in small steps. It's more likely to happen as part of a large-scale mixed used development in a location such as the Wall Street or Pinacle sites. Hotel-Condo-Office-Theater-street oriented Retail-Dining-Parking in one block.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Thenewguy, I'm not trying to defend the OWH, but those quotes were from WOWT's web site.

My girlfriend and I have been remarking SO much lately how utterly absurd it is that there is no Target east of 72nd St. in Omaha, let alone Downtown on in west CB.

Seriously, Target would do SO WELL Downtown, and it's just the type of retail that will open the floodgates to both new residents, and additional retailers.

Look at how ridiculous this map is:


There is no Target store anywhere near the most densely populated districts of the metro area. And I'm just using Target as ONE example of the type of retail that is inexplicably absent from Omaha's core.

[S33]

Thenewguy, I'm not trying to defend the OWH, but those quotes were from WOWT's web site.

My girlfriend and I have been remarking SO much lately how utterly absurd it is that there is no Target east of 72nd St. in Omaha, let alone Downtown.

Seriously, Target would do SO WELL Downtown, and it's just the type of retail that will open the floodgates to both new residents, and additional retailers.

Look at how ridiculous this map is:


There is no Target store anywhere near the most densely populated districts of the metro area. And I'm just using Target as ONE example of the type of retail that is inexplicably absent from Omaha's core.

There was, and it closed.

[OmahaJaysCU]

i wonder how successful another newspaper in Omaha would be.  Before joining the forum, I never realized how mixed up the world herald gets.  Then again, i don't read the world herald regularly, so that could be part of it.

Anyway...

Why doesn't the city push to have it developed with legitimate retail?  Nordstroms, Target, Saks, etc, would be good fits downtown.  We've all mentioned this like a million times before.  Instead, there are many efforts to push for new developments outside of downtown like MTC.  I know that Mutual is footing the bill, and i love the project, but why doesn't the city work something out with businesses to make the area more attractive to developers?  If there are new projects going up for hundreds of millions of dollars and starting from scratch, there should surely be someone out there that would gather up the gusto to do something in the core of the city.  Until they add more shopping, living essentials (drug store, laundry, etc), and dining outside of the old market, most people will be generally reluctant to move downtown, and downtown will never see the full revival we're all hoping for.

Not to be a debbie downer here, but there is absolutely no chance a major retailer will locate in downtown Omaha in the near future.  First off, the retail market has been absolutely killed by the current economic downturn.  It will likely be years before it recovers.  Second, look at all the new retail space that has been added to the Omaha market in general in the past 5-10 years: Village Pointe, Shadow Lake, Aksarben Village, Midtown Crossing, that one over in CB, and those are just the big ones.  The fact is that there are thousands of square feet of vacant retail space not only in downtown, but through out the city in general.  You can say all you want about the growth potential of 16th street, North Downtown, yada yada but it just isn't going to happen.  If any retailers are looking to expand in the next few years, it won't be in the "take a risk" locations like 16th street, but the areas with lots of land, parking, visibility, you know, the really ugly |expletive| we all love to hate.  

Don't get me wrong, seeing 16th street turn back in to a major retail corridor would be amazing, but I just don't think it is likely.

[thenewguy]

Thenewguy, I'm not trying to defend the OWH, but those quotes were from WOWT's web site.

My girlfriend and I have been remarking SO much lately how utterly absurd it is that there is no Target east of 72nd St. in Omaha, let alone Downtown.

Seriously, Target would do SO WELL Downtown, and it's just the type of retail that will open the floodgates to both new residents, and additional retailers.

Look at how ridiculous this map is:


There is no Target store anywhere near the most densely populated districts of the metro area. And I'm just using Target as ONE example of the type of retail that is inexplicably absent from Omaha's core.

Well |expletive| then.  I missed that, i should read more closely.  I guess it's a bad thing that they f-up so much that one automatically assumes they did it again.  Sorry this time, OWH.  WOWT: get your |expletive| together.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

There was, and it closed.

No |expletive|?  :roll:

That's a huge part of the point I'm making. It was complete ignorance on Target's part to think that opening the store at 72nd and Dodge would suffice for ALL OF EASTERN OMAHA, and to close the Saddle Creek location.

Not only should they have kept that store open and UPDATED it, they should have been looking ahead to opening ANOTHER store near Midtown Crossing or Downtown. IF THAT were the case, then and only then would they have had grounds for closing the Saddle Creek location (which still could have stayed open).

OmahaJaysCU, I disagree. Yes, I understand what you're saying about the retail market in the economy, but retailers will soon realize that Downtown Omaha is NOT a risk, and in deed, if they want to be successful in the Omaha market, they'll have to think about re-investing in urban Omaha.

[S33]

There was, and it closed.

No |expletive|?  :roll:

That's a huge part of the point I'm making. It was complete ignorance on Target's part to think that opening the store at 72nd and Dodge would suffice for ALL OF EASTERN OMAHA, and to close the Saddle Creek location.

Not only should they have kept that store open and UPDATED it, they should have been looking ahead to opening ANOTHER store near Midtown Crossing or Downtown. IF THAT were the case, then and only then would they have had grounds for closing the Saddle Creek location (which still could have stayed open).

Haha, you don't think Target knows what's best for themselves? There aren't an NPO, they do what they have to do to generate the most profit and they aren't here to serve the people.

If you really know as much as you think you do, perhaps you should propose to Target that you head their expansion board.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

I think retailers OFTEN miss their mark in choosing locations because they don't fully understand local markets but on a very superficial level. If they're concerned about their bottom line, or even just their integrity, then their goal SHOULD be to serve the people.