Generations (126 & Highway 370)

[MadMartin8]

Yeah the weather absolutely plays a factor (it was god awful this summer for sure) but I am mostly curious about empirical evidence of all of this rather than anecdotal. What people say and what actual trends are, can sometimes be different. That said I will see if I can find that survey.

[omaha79]

I read the 2% increase to be to the total for the season. If that's not correct and it's more than that, I wouldn't really buy that.

I agree that there are many, many other things that factor into attendance way more than winning or losing including the weather. Weather is the primary factor, I'd say. Gameday promotions like concerts, fireworks, bobbleheads, and other giveaways are a bigger factor, IMO.

And, just my best guess, but having attended similar late August/Early September games, I'd say the fact that they are playoff games might have an extremely minimal impact to the attendance vs. other regular season games during that time of the year. It's hard to quantify if that's a positive or negative though. You'll have a few diehards, like myself, that will seek out playoff games because...it's playoff baseball; however, I'm not the norm in terms of what motivates the public to go to a game. I will go based on record, playoff games, and who's on the other team. Most aren't motivated like that.

Martie has said that playoff games are a tough sell because they aren't included in any ticket package. So, you're asking your fanbase, on short notice, to buy more tickets for a game they didn't see on the calendar...at a time of a year when they are more focused on football and kids athletic events.

So, I'd say you get a slight bump from the diehards, but a little bigger negative effect from the average fan not knowing/caring and staying home. My gut says the average playoff game would be a little lower attended overall because of this.

Again, that's just me using my own eyes after having attended almost every playoff game between 2011-2014.

[MadMartin8]

I read the 2% increase to be to the total for the season. If that's not correct and it's more than that, I wouldn't really buy that.

For every 10% increase games won, there was a 2% increase(so it could be 20 - 4, etc).

I agree that there are many, many other things that factor into attendance way more than winning or losing including the weather. Weather is the primary factor, I'd say. Gameday promotions like concerts, fireworks, bobbleheads, and other giveaways are a bigger factor, IMO.

And, just my best guess, but having attended similar late August/Early September games, I'd say the fact that they are playoff games might have an extremely minimal impact to the attendance vs. other regular season games during that time of the year. It's hard to quantify if that's a positive or negative though. You'll have a few diehards, like myself, that will seek out playoff games because...it's playoff baseball; however, I'm not the norm in terms of what motivates the public to go to a game. I will go based on record, playoff games, and who's on the other team. Most aren't motivated like that.

Martie has said that playoff games are a tough sell because they aren't included in any ticket package. So, you're asking your fanbase, on short notice, to buy more tickets for a game they didn't see on the calendar...at a time of a year when they are more focused on football and kids athletic events.

So, I'd say you get a slight bump from the diehards, but a little bigger negative effect from the average fan not knowing/caring and staying home. My gut says the average playoff game would be a little lower attended overall because of this.

Again, that's just me using my own eyes after having attended almost every playoff game between 2011-2014.

My point isn't that winning or losing is the sole factor, merely that it can help stave off large declines in attendance that you see after something loses it's...well.. "new" and "awe" factor, and the natural decay of that novelty. How much is that prevention of decay? Well, 2-10%? Still matters game over game. Winning does impact attendance, whether you recognize that or not, empirically. The larger trend has already been discussed in that there seems to be an overall decline in sporting event attendance due to various factors (TV packages, apathy, etc.).

[omaha79]

Yes, winning is a factor, but my point is that whether it's 2% or 10% it's still a secondary factor compared to everything else that affects minor league baseball attendance and it's certainly not enough of a factor to stave off the end of the new ballpark honeymoon.

I once thought that the Royals/Storm Chasers having a few successful seasons combined with the KC Royals becoming a competent franchise and making the playoffs a couple of times would be exactly what the franchise needed to increase/maintain attendance. Martie Cordaro himself flat out said that it didn't work that way. I was wrong. He was right. That's why he's a minor league GM. He knows his stuff.

The Chasers average attendance went down every year after the opening of the new ballpark and that included 4 straight division titles, 3 PCL Titles, and back to back AAA National Championships. All of this was framed around the KC Royals renaissance with 2 straight A.L. Titles and a World Series win. One would think that if success really did contribute to higher interest than sometime around 2014 or 2015 the Chasers would have had a higher season attendance. Instead, it was another year on an overall downward trajectory.

Maybe the success lessened the attendance losses within those years, but overall, it certainly wasn't enough of a factor to change the bottom line trend that's been occurring.

[omaha79]

I found this interesting. Last year, Columbus only got 3,100 and 2400 for their first two playoff games...but then made the rest of them free admission and drew over 10k for all of them. So, again it's anecdotal, but this is an example outside of Omaha where people aren't valuing playoff games and franchises taking extreme lengths to push attendance...

The 155 playoff games for U.S./Canadian teams in 2015 averaged 2,597 per game, with a top league playoff
crowd of 11,894 at Columbus. The AAA Championship game in El Paso drew 9,332. There were 22 games that
drew at least 5,000 in 2015, but that was up from only 13 playoff games reaching 5,000 in 2014. The first 2 playoff
games at Columbus drew 3,131 and 2,468. The Clippers then allowed free admission to their 3 remaining playoff
games, and they drew 10,734, 11,408, and 11,894. Attendance was below 1,000 at 22 games.

http://numbertamer.com/files/2015_Minor ... alysis.pdf

[omaha79]

I found this interesting. Last year, Columbus only got 3,100 and 2400 for their first two playoff games...but then made the rest of them free admission and drew over 10k for all of them. So, again it's anecdotal, but this is an example outside of Omaha where people aren't valuing playoff games and franchises taking extreme lengths to push attendance...

The 155 playoff games for U.S./Canadian teams in 2015 averaged 2,597 per game, with a top league playoff
crowd of 11,894 at Columbus. The AAA Championship game in El Paso drew 9,332. There were 22 games that
drew at least 5,000 in 2015, but that was up from only 13 playoff games reaching 5,000 in 2014. The first 2 playoff
games at Columbus drew 3,131 and 2,468. The Clippers then allowed free admission to their 3 remaining playoff
games, and they drew 10,734, 11,408, and 11,894. Attendance was below 1,000 at 22 games.

http://numbertamer.com/files/2015_Minor ... alysis.pdf

and, while I just found this information...I'd say their talking points are on the same wavelength as mine...but this is standard MILB rationale within the industry...

There are several reasons why, with the exception of the Mexican League, Minor League playoff games often
don’t draw well. Some leagues play split-seasons, with playoff teams for each half of the season, so at least one or
two playoff teams are known well ahead of time. But there is often little time for advance ticket sales to these games.
Group ticket sales, and promotions and giveaways, which are major components of Minor League attendance,
are difficult to plan on short notice. Mexican League playoff games are in August. But playoffs in all other leagues
take place in September, when school is open, and the NFL and college and high school football seasons have begun.
Minor league teams often provide free playoff tickets to season ticketholders, or may have a ‘Buy a ticket to the first
playoff game, and get a free ticket to all other playoff games’ promotion. Other teams allow fans who have leftover
unused regular season tickets to trade them in for playoff tickets. So attendance listed for Minor League playoff
games often includes a large number of free tickets

[MadMartin8]

Maybe the success lessened the attendance losses within those years, but overall, it certainly wasn't enough of a factor to change the bottom line trend that's been occurring.

Nothing will, save for a remodel of the park or something else incredibly out of the ordinary. Not saying that winning prevents this, merely lessens the impact, which we've just agreed on. Not sure why we need to mention that attendance is decreasing, we already knew this?

And if attendance isn't being pushed...what really builds the brand?

[Erik]

Brutal cold april and may, brutal hot in july?

Average highs in april is 65, may is 75 and july is 85.

In the summer Omaha's average heat index is relatively average in the US. We average 5 -10 less degrees than Dallas in april and may.

So by all accounts, dallas is near brutal cold in april an may too?

[Big E]

Has to be a bourbon post.

100% sober. 10,000% told ya so.

And you know I'm a scotch guy.

[Erik]

Has to be a bourbon post.

100% sober. 10,000% told ya so.

And you know I'm a scotch guy.

No way! Is it really you? The Big E?

[Big E]

Yup. See you again in 3.5 years or so.

[Erik]

Yup. See you again in 3.5 years or so.

Why?

You still in Omaha?

[WBR_Tom]

Not exactly Pennant Place, but very close to it (wasn't sure where to stick this, so if the Mods want to move it, please do!)

The owners of Phoenix Food & Spirits announced on the Papillion Facebook page today that they're opening a second location in Papillion (11212 Richland Drive -- which is the southwest corner of 132nd and 370). Sounds like they're hiring right now and plan to open in two weeks.

[RockHarbor]

MODS: There are possible viruses in those links according to this Google Search: https://www.google.com/search?source=hp ... wDoAUqi0uA

[Louie]

MODS: There are possible viruses in those links according to this Google Search: https://www.google.com/search?source=hp ... wDoAUqi0uA

Good catch

[RockHarbor]

MODS: There are possible viruses in those links according to this Google Search: https://www.google.com/search?source=hp ... wDoAUqi0uA

Good catch

Thanks. That kind of "off the wall" intrusion just cannot be tolerated in our "happy home" here. I just had to do/say something -- because all the mods were asleep then, I think.

[Louie]

MODS: There are possible viruses in those links according to this Google Search: https://www.google.com/search?source=hp ... wDoAUqi0uA

Good catch

Thanks. That kind of "off the wall" intrusion just cannot be tolerated in our "happy home" here. I just had to do/say something -- because all the mods were asleep then, I think.

Agreed.

[iamjacobm]

The 540 unit apartment complex called "The Venue" secured a HUD 221(d)(4) loan to move forward. Looks like it will be done in a 300 unit phase 1 and a 240 unit phase 2.

https://www.egovlink.com/public_documen ... Report.pdf

[ita]

The 540 unit apartment complex called "The Venue" secured a HUD 221(d)(4) loan to move forward. Looks like it will be done in a 300 unit phase 1 and a 240 unit phase 2.

https://www.egovlink.com/public_documen ... Report.pdf

It is to bad they are just 2-3 story buildings and that retail or commercial space is not incorporated, but it is fitting with the North Shore subdivision. Hopefully this goes all the way with some financing secured. That will be a nice little enclave of development if the Prairie Queen thing ever gets off the ground.

[jsheets]

The 540 unit apartment complex called "The Venue" secured a HUD 221(d)(4) loan to move forward. Looks like it will be done in a 300 unit phase 1 and a 240 unit phase 2.

https://www.egovlink.com/public_documen ... Report.pdf

It is to bad they are just 2-3 story buildings and that retail or commercial space is not incorporated, but it is fitting with the North Shore subdivision. Hopefully this goes all the way with some financing secured. That will be a nice little enclave of development if the Prairie Queen thing ever gets off the ground.

grading has started for the apartments, so i assume financing was already secured

[ita]

The 540 unit apartment complex called "The Venue" secured a HUD 221(d)(4) loan to move forward. Looks like it will be done in a 300 unit phase 1 and a 240 unit phase 2.

https://www.egovlink.com/public_documen ... Report.pdf

It is to bad they are just 2-3 story buildings and that retail or commercial space is not incorporated, but it is fitting with the North Shore subdivision. Hopefully this goes all the way with some financing secured. That will be a nice little enclave of development if the Prairie Queen thing ever gets off the ground.

grading has started for the apartments, so i assume financing was already secured

Are you referring to the apartments that are referenced in the pdf? If so, that's great news.

[jsheets]

Yep!

[WBR_Tom]

Exciting news. We took a drive over there last night and it does indeed look like there's some preliminary dirt work taking place. I found a website with renderings of the new apartments (apologies if this has been linked before; I didn't see it in the thread but may have missed it):

https://mepdeltadesign.com/project/the- ... rner-park/



And here's a press release from a month or so ago after they secured the financing:

https://www.multihousingnews.com/post/m ... financing/

With 540 units this could be the spark that's needed to ignite commercial development along 370 between 114th and 132nd -- we've lived in that stretch of Papillion for a few years and it's seemed to be near the tipping point for the last year or so, where once someone took the first plunge a bunch of commercial construction would follow. There's enough rooftops to support a restaurant or two, at a minimum, IMHO; The Good Life Lounge South opened last week on 90th and 370 and was packed every time I drove past (there were people waiting 20-30 minutes for a table on Sunday when we were there to try it out).

[RockHarbor]

Love the ball stadum, but will that area just DEVELOP?! It is taking forever.... (I'm talking more retail, gas stations, ect.) Google sure doesn't need to point their satellite camera to that area, and zoom in, because nothing hardly changes.

That area of town is kinda strange, imo. And, people sense it, and it now is taking forever to develop. I think they need an exit off I-80 at 132nd Street, or something.

[Brad]

Love the ball stadum, but will that area just DEVELOP?! It is taking forever.... (I'm talking more retail, gas stations, ect.) Google sure doesn't need to point their satellite camera to that area, and zoom in, because nothing hardly changes.

There is a decent sized apartment complex under construction on the SW corner of this development. With that and all the residential construction currently going on in that area, its only a matter of time.

That area of town is kinda strange, imo. And, people sense it, and it now is taking forever to develop. I think they need an exit off I-80 at 132nd Street, or something.

There are residential subdivisions going up everywhere out there. The area around Werner Park is probably the fastest growing area in the metro the past few years.

[omaha79]

Also, with the increase in housing in the area, this helps make the soccer team more viable. I listened tot he podcast. Gary Green said that development around Werner in Penant Place is imminent. He said he knows more than he can talk about. I think this is finally reaching the bedroom base in the area to make development viable. I wouldn't be shocked if there were major announcements this summer which can also only help both the Storm Chasers and the yet to be named soccer team.

[Coyote]

image.jpeg (123.89 KiB) Viewed 3752 times

[Greg S]

Very interesting. I assume what you just posted is what Gary Green was alluding to.

Greg

[omaha79]

wow. how many churches does this development need? I get that can draw people to locate their homes in a certain area, but I'm kind of surprised to see that much space, some of it was originally considered to be commercial or maybe residential taken up by churches.

What is "Rampant Conclusions Western Springs" and "BHI Development"?

[Louie]

wow. how many churches does this development need? I get that can draw people to locate their homes in a certain area, but I'm kind of surprised to see that much space, some of it was originally considered to be commercial or maybe residential taken up by churches.

What is "Rampant Conclusions Western Springs" and "BHI Development"?

BHI is a development company. They probably own the parcel and don't have plans finalized for what they will do. And yeah that's a lot of churches.

[Coyote]

I made that map based on what Sarpy County's map says is there. Lutheran Church from Sioux Falls owns the two plots in the NE, one I think was going to be an assisted living space. Haven't researched to know what Rampant Coclusions is yet, and western springs has all of those plots on the East side.

[Uffda]

I made that map based on what Sarpy County's map says is there. Lutheran Church from Sioux Falls owns the two plots in the NE, one I think was going to be an assisted living space. Haven't researched to know what Rampant Coclusions is yet, and western springs has all of those plots on the East side.

What church?

[Coyote]

Evangelical Lutheran
4800 W 57th St. POB 5038
SIoux Falls, SD 57117

Looks like the Good Samaritan Society - National Campus
Uffda, Is this the ELCA?

[Coyote]

The Venue at Werner Park is out of Austin, TX
Rampant Conclusions is out of Washington, TX
Western Springs Land Corp is 11205 S 150th St. Suite 100

[Uffda]

Evangelical Lutheran
4800 W 57th St. POB 5038
SIoux Falls, SD 57117

Looks like the Good Samaritan Society - National Campus
Uffda, Is this the ELCA?

I think it is more of an affiliation with the ELCA and Missouri synod based on their website ----- the Society continues to strengthen its commitment to its mission and reaffirm a church relationship through its Affiliation Agreement with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and its Recognized Service Organization status with the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod (LCMS).

Also I remember reading about this merger - it was completed in January of this year --
Sanford Health to acquire Good Sam in merger, uniting two of Sioux Falls' biggest employers https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/ ... 732218002/

The Evangelical Lutheran Good Samaritan Society and Sanford Health have officially combined.

As a combined organization, Sanford Health now employs nearly 50,000 people, offering health services spanning the continuum of life, including clinics, hospitals, health insurance and senior care services, in 26 states.

[Brad]

The "Venue at Werner Park" Photo Update. Currently 4 buildings and a clubhouse that have gone vertical.

1.


2.


3.


4.

[Greg S]

Was driving by today. Some construction equipment moving dirt on the land between Werner Park and 370. Anyone know what’s going on?




Greg

[U R my Helix]

Was driving by today. Some construction equipment moving dirt on the land between Werner Park and 370. Anyone know what’s going on?




Greg

There is a lot of dirt moving in that area. Could it be this?
2019 Proposed 144 Units North Shore Development. 126th St Lincoln Rd to Hwy 370. "Generations" see LINK

[Greg S]

On Grow Omaha they announced the 60 acres in front of the park (where they have been moving dirt this year) will be a mixed use development. BHI is behind the project. Sounds like 400 apartments, 1-2 parking garages,office along with retail. Sounds like it's going to be called Generations.

They also mentioned the site plans shows 2 hotels.

Greg

[skinzfan23]

It will be great to finally have that plot developed.