Generations (126 & Highway 370)

West Omaha, Sarpy and Nebraska metro counties.

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skinzfan23
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by skinzfan23 »

Thought we had this map here before.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Trips »

The North Shore Commercial (Schewe Farms) will now have 110 apartments + Commercial. They have been doing a lot of dirt work there. With apartments on the east and west ends of Pennant Place maybe we will finally some businesses in the middle.

http://www.egovlink.com/public_document ... Report.pdf
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Greg S
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Greg S »

It's been great seeing all of the development follow the stadium. Quite a change from just a few years ago.

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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Brad »

Greg S wrote:It's been great seeing all of the development follow the stadium. Quite a change from just a few years ago.
When that next lake, WP-6, gets going (if it already hasn't) at 114th and Cornhusker, you should see even more development fill in around here.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Al Buterol »

Brad wrote:
Greg S wrote:It's been great seeing all of the development follow the stadium. Quite a change from just a few years ago.
When that next lake, WP-6, gets going (if it already hasn't) at 114th and Cornhusker, you should see even more development fill in around here.
They seem to have started dirt work this week on the 114th and cornhusker lake (or at least on the east side of 114th that is)
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by WBR_Tom »

Al Buterol wrote:
Brad wrote:
Greg S wrote:It's been great seeing all of the development follow the stadium. Quite a change from just a few years ago.
When that next lake, WP-6, gets going (if it already hasn't) at 114th and Cornhusker, you should see even more development fill in around here.
They seem to have started dirt work this week on the 114th and cornhusker lake (or at least on the east side of 114th that is)
The dirt work is for the Granite Falls North residential subdivision, which will have 178 single-family homes. The lots in the Granite Falls development to the east that they began building out this spring are almost all sold already -- 15 or 20 new homes sprung up super-quick next to the new middle school -- so they're moving to the north end of the development ahead of schedule. My understanding from the zoning meeting two weeks ago is that Lincoln Road will connect all the way from the ballpark to 90th St. once it's complete.

Dirt work has also begun on the Granite Falls commercial development at 114th and 370; Mayor Black said on the city Facebook page a few months back that a mid-size "organic" grocer along the lines of a Whole Foods (but not Whole Foods) was slated to anchor that development, but wouldn't confirm which one. Rumor I'm hearing is Fresh Thyme, but that's just a rumor. Curious to see what actually ends up there.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Brad »

WBR_Tom wrote:My understanding from the zoning meeting two weeks ago is that Lincoln Road will connect all the way from the ballpark to 90th St. once it's complete.
I was talking to Mayor Black about it at Werner park a couple months ago its all done, it will go from Halleck to 132nd Street, with a bike trail the whole way west of 96th, ease of 96 the trail cuts over to the creek. He said I would be able to ride my bike from Hallek Park to Paririe Queen once its done.
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Greg S
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Greg S »

WBR_Tom wrote:
Al Buterol wrote:
Brad wrote:
Greg S wrote:It's been great seeing all of the development follow the stadium. Quite a change from just a few years ago.
When that next lake, WP-6, gets going (if it already hasn't) at 114th and Cornhusker, you should see even more development fill in around here.
They seem to have started dirt work this week on the 114th and cornhusker lake (or at least on the east side of 114th that is)
The dirt work is for the Granite Falls North residential subdivision, which will have 178 single-family homes. The lots in the Granite Falls development to the east that they began building out this spring are almost all sold already -- 15 or 20 new homes sprung up super-quick next to the new middle school -- so they're moving to the north end of the development ahead of schedule. My understanding from the zoning meeting two weeks ago is that Lincoln Road will connect all the way from the ballpark to 90th St. once it's complete.

Dirt work has also begun on the Granite Falls commercial development at 114th and 370; Mayor Black said on the city Facebook page a few months back that a mid-size "organic" grocer along the lines of a Whole Foods (but not Whole Foods) was slated to anchor that development, but wouldn't confirm which one. Rumor I'm hearing is Fresh Thyme, but that's just a rumor. Curious to see what actually ends up there.

Fresh Thyme would definitely fit that bill.

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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Al Buterol »

I wonder if Bakers will ever build on the commercial lot they bought in front of the Ashbury farm subdivision.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Zombieno »

Some developers announced a big project at Werner Park and rumors of developers taking interest at Pennant Place are out there. This could shape up very nicely in 2017.

http://www.egovlink.com/public_document ... ations.pdf
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Brad »

Zombieno wrote:Some developers announced a big project at Werner Park and rumors of developers taking interest at Pennant Place are out there. This could shape up very nicely in 2017.

http://www.egovlink.com/public_document ... ations.pdf
Interesting. This would be over on the east end of Pennant Place, backed up to the Papio-Missouri NRD Property.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by GRANDPASMUCKER »


That was a darn good article. Trenton from NP Dodge said there aint no businesses going to be opening anytime soon in this area until they get some houses built and that could take awhile. Makes perfectly good sense. I bet hes right. Its going to be a hot area with those lakes and that ball park but its 10 years down the road at least.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by omaha79 »

I'm a huge Storm Chasers supporter, but I do have to question the article suggesting that the lack of development out there has not hurt the team. Maybe it's right that this hasn't hurt Sarpy County and that they are doing fine on the debt servicing of the ballpark itself (likely due to overall county growth more than anything), but I do wonder if they are painting a too rosy picture of the team itself?

The article states...
For the Storm Chasers, the ballpark has been a big success: sponsor support and ticket sales have been strong — although attendance is down slightly this year — and the team has mostly been a winner in its new home.
Still, looking between the lines, I've noticed that per the PCL's website that attendance has gone down every season since 2011 when the team moved to Werner Park. Some of that is to be expected. No franchise can sustain the buzz that surrounds the opening of a new ballpark...but at what point is 5 straight years of lower attendance start to become an issue? It seems like the Chasers have tried to make up for this by increasing ticket prices. I don't have all the specifics, but it feels like ticket prices have gone up quite a bit on a single game basis since 2011. That could be part of the reason that attendance has gone down every year as well.

The Royals great play in 2014 and 2015 didn't really lead to a bump in ticket sales even though interest has been high in Omaha towards the parent club.

The quote says the ballpark has been a big success, but Omaha is still 10/16 in attendance. They will likely always lag behind many cities in the PCL due to the brutal cold weather games we are asked to endure in April and May; however, it's hard to accept that argument when Iowa can average 2k more fans a game in the same climate.

Attendance is a concern to me as we see more and more of the teams in the bottom 1/3 relocating to warm weather climates. By attrition alone, Omaha could find itself near the bottom in PCL attendance if this doesn't turn around. Colorado Springs is likely relocating soon. Las Vegas could end up getting a new stadium and they are only about 500 behind Omaha right now in average attendance.

I want nothing but success for the Storm Chasers and I think that with more homes in the area and some development at Pennant Place things may still get better, but I hesitate to call the teams fortunes in Sarpy an unmitigated success overall.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by MadMartin8 »

omaha79 wrote:I'm a huge Storm Chasers supporter, but I do have to question the article suggesting that the lack of development out there has not hurt the team. Maybe it's right that this hasn't hurt Sarpy County and that they are doing fine on the debt servicing of the ballpark itself (likely due to overall county growth more than anything), but I do wonder if they are painting a too rosy picture of the team itself?

The article states...
For the Storm Chasers, the ballpark has been a big success: sponsor support and ticket sales have been strong — although attendance is down slightly this year — and the team has mostly been a winner in its new home.
Still, looking between the lines, I've noticed that per the PCL's website that attendance has gone down every season since 2011 when the team moved to Werner Park. Some of that is to be expected. No franchise can sustain the buzz that surrounds the opening of a new ballpark...but at what point is 5 straight years of lower attendance start to become an issue? It seems like the Chasers have tried to make up for this by increasing ticket prices. I don't have all the specifics, but it feels like ticket prices have gone up quite a bit on a single game basis since 2011. That could be part of the reason that attendance has gone down every year as well.

.....

What's happening is exactly what I thought was going to happen when they moved; once the newness wears off the crowds will dwindle. The fact that they have been winning at the clip they have has slowed the decline, but it's still there. Werner Park isn't the place "to be seen" anymore.
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Greg S
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Greg S »

The Chasers will be fine. They established a beach head out there (as the article states) in front of the roof tops. The large commercial development has not started but there is definitely action with all of the homes built, under construction and what is coming. That will add thousands of families within in minutes of the park.

Has anybody noticed the attendance decline with Creighton baseball?

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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by omaha79 »

Greg S wrote:The Chasers will be fine. They established a beach head out there (as the article states) in front of the roof tops. The large commercial development has not started but there is definitely action with all of the homes built, under construction and what is coming. That will add thousands of families within in minutes of the park.

Has anybody noticed the attendance decline with Creighton baseball?

Greg
I hope you are right. When I envisioned this project, I assumed (incorrectly) that there would be some type of complementary commercial development at Pennant Place by the 5 year mark at the latest. That was a gross overestimation. I still think some of it is partly based on incompetence from the developers. All the rumors I heard were that Alamo was all set to move in out there, but the asking price for land was extremely high...so, they went with the better deal at Southport. That was a huge blow. I figured with the increase in homes out there combined with some commercial bars and restaurants it would help keep the momentum going from the ballpark and ensure that we wouldn't see what we've seen in terms of 5 straight years of smaller average attendance. The Chasers are averaging 5,398 out there this season. Typically, August/September is not a month where that number goes up. If anything, it can go down because kids are back in school and people are out of baseball mode as high school football, college football, and college soccer starts. If the Chasers finish at 5,375 or less, this would represent their lowest attendance in a season since 2007...or, before the new ballpark was even announced.

The bottom line is that I'm certainly not seeing any forward momentum at that point. If anything, we are just going back to the averages of the mid 00's and that's not a good thing. Granted, there was a fireworks night rained out this year if I recall and the Chasers can't count on a couple of huge Rosenblatt crowds of 15k to up their attendance. Overall attendance would still be more solid than the mid to late 00's, but it still seems like a warning sign to me.

Creighton baseball downtown is a completely different topic. I don't know that it really matters what they do there at this point. If the goal is having decent crowds and a good atmosphere in TDA, CU baseball has failed miserably. It's probably beyond repair at this point. They either stay there and play in front of friends and family, or they start their own on campus facility. There aren't really any other decent options for them.

Not sure that it matters either way though. The city is content having them there to make it look like an extra 20+ dates are "filled" each year. It just comes down to whether or not CU still sees an advantage of simply having top notch facilities for their players and can still recruit on "playing where the CWS is played" along with what kind of contract they can get to stay there.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

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I heard Alamo was all set to go then got a sweetheart deal to go out to Cabela's (because development out there had stalled, and they lost the Cordish planned development when Gretna won the outlet war).

The commercial part has been slow (though we were still recovering from the recession 5 years ago). Now that the rooftops are going up the commercial should follow. I am glad they are not letting just anything go in on that site (as they mentioned with the convenient store in the article).

I mentioned CU because the cookie cutter stadium downtown and Werner Park opened up at the same time. I'm not sure the cookie cutter ever was the place "to be seen" but based on CU's attendance it's not now. With the high rent, CU has to be losing thousands down there. You now just have CU and the series. No independent baseball has come, minor league football came and went twice, the concert option failed, etc.

With Werner, the Chasers have control of the stadium. They host UNO games, some Bellevue, high school games and the state tournament, concerts (most recently Big and Rich), Centris Movie night, and other several other special events. Plus they don't have to vacate the stadium for several prime weeks each summer. They are in a much better situation than they were at the 'blatt or even worse downtown under MECA's control.

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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by omaha79 »

Greg S wrote:I heard Alamo was all set to go then got a sweetheart deal to go out to Cabela's (because development out there had stalled, and they lost the Cordish planned development when Gretna won the outlet war).

The commercial part has been slow (though we were still recovering from the recession 5 years ago). Now that the rooftops are going up the commercial should follow. I am glad they are not letting just anything go in on that site (as they mentioned with the convenient store in the article).

I mentioned CU because the cookie cutter stadium downtown and Werner Park opened up at the same time. I'm not sure the cookie cutter ever was the place "to be seen" but based on CU's attendance it's not now. With the high rent, CU has to be losing thousands down there. You now just have CU and the series. No independent baseball has come, minor league football came and went twice, the concert option failed, etc.

With Werner, the Chasers have control of the stadium. They host UNO games, some Bellevue, high school games and the state tournament, concerts (most recently Big and Rich), Centris Movie night, and other several other special events. Plus they don't have to vacate the stadium for several prime weeks each summer. They are in a much better situation than they were at the 'blatt or even worse downtown under MECA's control.

Greg
and you'll never find me arguing any of that. Certainly, it's better for the Chasers logistically. It's a great home and a nice minor league venue. It's also been a true community asset for Papillion/Sarpy County. Because of all of those things, I see it as a worthwhile project.

I just don't like seeing the Chasers attendance backslide to mid 00's levels. That just kind of has a canary in the coal mine feel when it comes to the overall health of minor league baseball in this market. Sarpy and the Storm Chasers have too much invested in this to become complacent. Without healthy attendance on 70+ dates from the Storm Chasers, it doesn't matter how many other uses Sarpy can find for the ballpark.

I'm just disappointed we haven't found away to sustain an attendance average at 6k. That was my ultimate hope for this. An average of 6k+ every year. We are backsliding closer to 5k every year...and that's just not really acceptable.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Greg S »

I think they'll have no problems hitting 6k in the coming years. They are in about the hottest spot in the metro growth-wise. Both with the immediate vicinity, and sitting between Gretna and Papillion La Vista. Sarpy was one of the top one 100 counties for growth from 2010-2015. When the Chasers first planted stakes out there, they were accused of building out in the middle of nowhere. Most people would say you can't say that now, and in 5 years, you'd be an idiot to say that based on what's happening now.

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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by MadMartin8 »

What was ignored is that, again, the Storm Chasers aren't too far separated from their titles. Creighton baseball is...well, Creighton baseball. As per my initial point, winning matters in stemming the tide against diminishing attendance. The Storm Chasers at Werner was most certainly the place "to be seen" amongst the suburban crowd. Creighton baseball has never been that, nor will it ever be.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by HskrFanMike »

omaha79 wrote: I'm just disappointed we haven't found away to sustain an attendance average at 6k. That was my ultimate hope for this. An average of 6k+ every year. We are backsliding closer to 5k every year...and that's just not really acceptable.
That's going to be extremely difficult to do without expanding the stadium. The fire marshall won't let more than about 9,000 on good weekend night, which are going to be needed to offset those April weeknights when it's 42 degrees or those July days when the heat index is trying to break 110.

I don't think Martie and his team are primarily concerned with attendance numbers so much as the revenue they are generating.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

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Holy |expletive|...
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

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It's been a while...
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

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Has to be a bourbon post. :yes:
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Greg S »

MadMartin8 wrote:What was ignored is that, again, the Storm Chasers aren't too far separated from their titles. Creighton baseball is...well, Creighton baseball. As per my initial point, winning matters in stemming the tide against diminishing attendance. The Storm Chasers at Werner was most certainly the place "to be seen" amongst the suburban crowd. Creighton baseball has never been that, nor will it ever be.

The thing is, winning has been shown not to be a huge factor in minor league attendance. All of the polls done have confirmed that.

I think CU was banking on playing at TD in downtown would be a draw, it hasn't, and never became the place "to be seen."

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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Greg S »

HskrFanMike wrote:
omaha79 wrote: I'm just disappointed we haven't found away to sustain an attendance average at 6k. That was my ultimate hope for this. An average of 6k+ every year. We are backsliding closer to 5k every year...and that's just not really acceptable.
That's going to be extremely difficult to do without expanding the stadium. The fire marshall won't let more than about 9,000 on good weekend night, which are going to be needed to offset those April weeknights when it's 42 degrees or those July days when the heat index is trying to break 110.

I don't think Martie and his team are primarily concerned with attendance numbers so much as the revenue they are generating.

This is true. Stadiums are getting smaller not larger. Teams want more amenities and ways to maximize revenue. With few exceptions, most teams that open new stadiums, have them smaller, but come out way ahead because of the bars, suites and stores that go in. Werner is perfectly set up as a minor league stadium. Between the corporate hospitality tents around the concourse, the party areas on the upper deck that can be rented and all of the activity areas, it just works for them. Plus at it's current size you can host smaller events and it makes sense.

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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

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Greg S wrote: This is true. Stadiums are getting smaller not larger. Teams want more amenities and ways to maximize revenue. With few exceptions, most teams that open new stadiums, have them smaller, but come out way ahead because of the bars, suites and stores that go in.
The Colorado Rockies ripped out the whole right field upper deck at Coors Field a few years ago and turned it in to a giant bar (party deck). It was about 9 full sections of seating.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Greg S »

Brad wrote:
Greg S wrote: This is true. Stadiums are getting smaller not larger. Teams want more amenities and ways to maximize revenue. With few exceptions, most teams that open new stadiums, have them smaller, but come out way ahead because of the bars, suites and stores that go in.
The Colorado Rockies ripped out the whole right field upper deck at Coors Field a few years ago and turned it in to a giant bar (party deck). It was about 9 full sections of seating.
Exactly the type of move I was referring to. The Miami Dolphins did a bunch of that too. The Royals when they redid their stadium shrunk the capacity a bit to improve the amenities and premium seats. In the minors it's happening too. In the last couple years they did some renovations for the Memphis Redbirds and shrunk their fixed seats by 3,100.


Greg
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by GetUrban »

Greg S wrote:
Brad wrote:
Greg S wrote: This is true. Stadiums are getting smaller not larger. Teams want more amenities and ways to maximize revenue. With few exceptions, most teams that open new stadiums, have them smaller, but come out way ahead because of the bars, suites and stores that go in.
The Colorado Rockies ripped out the whole right field upper deck at Coors Field a few years ago and turned it in to a giant bar (party deck). It was about 9 full sections of seating.
Exactly the type of move I was referring to. The Miami Dolphins did a bunch of that too. The Royals when they redid their stadium shrunk the capacity a bit to improve the amenities and premium seats. In the minors it's happening too. In the last couple years they did some renovations for the Memphis Redbirds and shrunk their fixed seats by 3,100.


Greg
This trend makes me wonder if people are losing interest or becoming bored with these sports in general. Could it be that attention spans are getting shorter? ...Or maybe people prefer to multi-task and do more things at once now, to put a positive spin on it.

I'm not criticizing the trend, just speculating on the cause.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by nebugeater »

at the major league level and others to some point cost has to be a factor.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by MadMartin8 »

Greg S wrote:
MadMartin8 wrote:What was ignored is that, again, the Storm Chasers aren't too far separated from their titles. Creighton baseball is...well, Creighton baseball. As per my initial point, winning matters in stemming the tide against diminishing attendance. The Storm Chasers at Werner was most certainly the place "to be seen" amongst the suburban crowd. Creighton baseball has never been that, nor will it ever be.

The thing is, winning has been shown not to be a huge factor in minor league attendance. All of the polls done have confirmed that.

I think CU was banking on playing at TD in downtown would be a draw, it hasn't, and never became the place "to be seen."

Greg

Could you provide me with the polls that show winning doesn't impact attendance? I mean, I get it that it is moreso a "family night out" than anything else, but once that newness wears off I am thinking that you'll see decreasing returns (which, so far the numbers seem to show for the Stormchasers, and a few other teams..heck, once UNO Hockey's newness wore off the folks that remained were largely just Hockey nuts...which was fine by me). Combine that with what you and others have already stated with decreasing interest, I can't help but wonder if those other revenue streams will start drying up...you need fan support (even if it isn't in the seats) to drive the brand.

Also can't help but wonder if we're seeing this finally in Nebraska Football.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by omaha79 »

Greg S wrote:
Brad wrote:
Greg S wrote: This is true. Stadiums are getting smaller not larger. Teams want more amenities and ways to maximize revenue. With few exceptions, most teams that open new stadiums, have them smaller, but come out way ahead because of the bars, suites and stores that go in.
The Colorado Rockies ripped out the whole right field upper deck at Coors Field a few years ago and turned it in to a giant bar (party deck). It was about 9 full sections of seating.
Exactly the type of move I was referring to. The Miami Dolphins did a bunch of that too. The Royals when they redid their stadium shrunk the capacity a bit to improve the amenities and premium seats. In the minors it's happening too. In the last couple years they did some renovations for the Memphis Redbirds and shrunk their fixed seats by 3,100.


Greg
Heck, even at the minor league level, the Memphis Redbirds have taken seats out. The Oklahoma City Dodgers have been tarping off seats for years. They probably regret building as big as they did. Even in Nashville, the new ballpark was only built with a 10k capacity...not far off from Werner. Charlotte is at 10,200. El Paso is at 9k fixed seats with berm seating to roughly 10k.

The size of Werner Park is quickly becoming the industry standard for AAA. You won't see another 15-20k stadium built. The old business model of build a huge AAA park and hope you draw well enough to one day convert it to a MLB ballpark is gone. Cities like Buffalo, Memphis, and OKC were burned by that model and left with white elephant stadiums that they can never hope to fill on a regular basis.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by omaha79 »

GetUrban wrote:
Greg S wrote:
Brad wrote:
Greg S wrote: This is true. Stadiums are getting smaller not larger. Teams want more amenities and ways to maximize revenue. With few exceptions, most teams that open new stadiums, have them smaller, but come out way ahead because of the bars, suites and stores that go in.
The Colorado Rockies ripped out the whole right field upper deck at Coors Field a few years ago and turned it in to a giant bar (party deck). It was about 9 full sections of seating.
Exactly the type of move I was referring to. The Miami Dolphins did a bunch of that too. The Royals when they redid their stadium shrunk the capacity a bit to improve the amenities and premium seats. In the minors it's happening too. In the last couple years they did some renovations for the Memphis Redbirds and shrunk their fixed seats by 3,100.


Greg
This trend makes me wonder if people are losing interest or becoming bored with these sports in general. Could it be that attention spans are getting shorter? ...Or maybe people prefer to multi-task and do more things at once now, to put a positive spin on it.

I'm not criticizing the trend, just speculating on the cause.
It's a combination of factors.

There is more competition for the entertainment dollar today with more choices in the local sports scene. This isn't just something going on in Omaha. There are more college football, basketball, and other minor league sports being marketed to people nationwide. They all have nice arenas and amenities. The entertainment dollar only stretches so far.

There is also slightly less interest in the minor league product as a true sporting event as the average fan not in a MLB city has more access to the MLB than ever before. 20 years ago, a minor league team was one of your main windows into the MLB product. You might not live in a MLB city, but you could latch onto the minor league product and feel connected by watching the young prospects come up. Living outside a MLB market, you didn't often get to see your team. You were dependent on whatever games were fed to you by ESPN and the Fox game of the week. Now, you never have to miss a single inning of your MLB teams games with things like MLB Extra Innings or MLB.tv. For $100-$200 a year (depending on platform/provider) one can watch a full seasons worth of games from home. Even at the minor league level, we're reaching a point where that's roughly 3-4 trips to the ballpark per year. So, for the true baseball die hard, the buy in at the minor league level is a tougher sell. It now has to be marketed as an event with on field promotions, playgrounds, suites, and restaurants. This is a fundamental paradigm shift from a generation ago.

And to the other poster, it's a well known fact in minor league baseball circles that on field success isn't really a driver for attendance. The Storm Chasers had some of their lowest attended games during the playoffs in 2011-2014. That's because those games weren't part of all season ticket packages and the mind of the average sports fan had moved on to things like college football, the NFL, and their kids high school sports. It's also part of the double edged sword of marketing minor league baseball as a social event vs. a true sporting competition. You just don't get the buy in based on wins and losses. It's more to do with how much fun you had and how entertained you were.
MadMartin8
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by MadMartin8 »

omaha79 wrote:
And to the other poster, it's a well known fact in minor league baseball circles that on field success isn't really a driver for attendance. The Storm Chasers had some of their lowest attended games during the playoffs in 2011-2014. That's because those games weren't part of all season ticket packages and the mind of the average sports fan had moved on to things like college football, the NFL, and their kids high school sports. It's also part of the double edged sword of marketing minor league baseball as a social event vs. a true sporting competition. You just don't get the buy in based on wins and losses. It's more to do with how much fun you had and how entertained you were.
So, wherein the declines you are seeing and concerned about, you don't believe that the fact they are winning has any impact on slowing the declines, or any impact at all? I suppose I'll ask you the same question I asked Greg, could you provide the surveys/studies that show this? I'm thoroughly curious as to many other sports the adage "everyone likes winner" rings quite true.

Edit: I am not sure...er.. legality of putting the full document on here, but you can access it here if you go through your university's login (for those who have one): http://jse.sagepub.com/content/11/6/614.abstract
The abstract:

Like Major League Baseball (MLB), minor league baseball attendance may be influenced by the quality of the team. We use a data set encompassing all A, AA, and AAA minor league teams from 1992 to 2006 and find a positive relationship between a minor league team’s winning percentage and attendance. We also find evidence that minor and MLB are substitutes as increased ticket prices for the nearest MLB team lead to higher minor league attendance if that team is within 100 miles. Similarly, we find that during the MLB strike, minor league attendance increased. Finally, we find that a local or regional MLB team’s winning percentage only has a positive impact on minor league attendance when they are affiliated clubs.
There is also a full article that you can access for free (and interesting read if you even care): http://sabr.org/research/prospects-prom ... ague-games
In earlier research, Gitter and Rhoads found that quality of play also affects attendance at the single-A minor league level. They found that a 10 percent increase in winning percentage translates to a two percent increase in attendance.23 Those findings support the research of Cebula and colleagues. Their research on teams in the Carolina League (single-A) found that ticket sales and attendance was “positively impacted by runs scored by the home team. Team performance counts!”24

However, there seems to be some debate over how much attention minor league spectators give to the play on the field. Some officials in minor league sports believe that quality of play takes a backseat to promotions and off-field entertainment. Craig Bommert, a vice-president of a minor league sports team, reflects the opinions of many minor league executives when he says that minor league sports are strictly about entertainment and minor league organizations are more likely competing with restaurants and movies than other sporting venues. Said Bommert: “Most of your crowd will not even know what the score is when they leave the building. Don’t make it about the game. If you lose you still want them to leave with a smile.”25 The results of this study state otherwise.
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omaha79
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by omaha79 »

so, a 10% bump in winning percentage equals a 2% bump in attendance. I'd buy that. That would be roughly 100 fans per game for the Storm Chasers. I'd buy that, but I'd also consider it insignificant in the overall attendance discussion compared to other factors that drive attendance at minor league ballparks.

Without having time to do any in depth research at the moment, why are the playoff games at Werner some of the lowest attended of the season...even when they are on the normally well attended Thu-Sat slots? I went to the game in 2014 when the Chasers won the PCL at home. It was a beautiful 75 degree sunny Sunday afternoon...and the announced attendance was 3,600. Actual was probably less. Everyone loves a winner. So, if winning the PCL truly moved the needle here, why wasn't there 7k in attendance that day? This is typical for all of the playoff games Werner Park has hosted and typical for MILB as a whole (some teams do better than others though). Look up the box scores. They are available on the Chasers website. Those games were all terrible for attendance.

Yes, this is anecdotal, but discuss the play on the field and how it affects attendance with someone like Martie Cordaro and he would probably say that 2% is just about right.

If anything, I'm more shocked that the KC Royals success from 2014-2015 didn't boost attendance a bit. I would see that as more of a motivator for people to come out to Chasers games vs. the Chasers actual season success.

Overall though, I would say things like ballpark amenities and things to do around the ballpark have a higher ability to affect attendance going forward than anything the Storm Chasers or Royals are doing on the field at any given time.
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by MadMartin8 »

omaha79 wrote: Without having time to do any in depth research at the moment, why are the playoff games at Werner some of the lowest attended of the season...even when they are on the normally well attended Thu-Sat slots? I went to the game in 2014 when the Chasers won the PCL at home. It was a beautiful 75 degree sunny Sunday afternoon...and the announced attendance was 3,600. Actual was probably less. Everyone loves a winner. So, if winning the PCL truly moved the needle here, why wasn't there 7k in attendance that day? This is typical for all of the playoff games Werner Park has hosted and typical for MILB as a whole (some teams do better than others though). Look up the box scores. They are available on the Chasers website. Those games were all terrible for attendance.
If they weren't winning, do you think those (granted not the playoff, but overall) numbers would be lower? Greater? Unimpacted? That's my question.
Yes, this is anecdotal, but discuss the play on the field and how it affects attendance with someone like Martie Cordaro and he would probably say that 2% is just about right.
A 10% increase in win total 2% bump in attendance, so it compounds.
If anything, I'm more shocked that the KC Royals success from 2014-2015 didn't boost attendance a bit. I would see that as more of a motivator for people to come out to Chasers games vs. the Chasers actual season success.

Overall though, I would say things like ballpark amenities and things to do around the ballpark have a higher ability to affect attendance going forward than anything the Storm Chasers or Royals are doing on the field at any given time.
I won't argue (and am not really arguing) that park amenities and the festival atmosphere plays the primary role especially in a family atmosphere. I'm just saying, and rightfully so, that winning also impacts overall numbers, and can act to stem tides in rapid declines in attendance as seen with some other teams in this area.
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Greg S
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Greg S »

MadMartin8 wrote:
Greg S wrote:
MadMartin8 wrote:What was ignored is that, again, the Storm Chasers aren't too far separated from their titles. Creighton baseball is...well, Creighton baseball. As per my initial point, winning matters in stemming the tide against diminishing attendance. The Storm Chasers at Werner was most certainly the place "to be seen" amongst the suburban crowd. Creighton baseball has never been that, nor will it ever be.

The thing is, winning has been shown not to be a huge factor in minor league attendance. All of the polls done have confirmed that.

I think CU was banking on playing at TD in downtown would be a draw, it hasn't, and never became the place "to be seen."

Greg

Could you provide me with the polls that show winning doesn't impact attendance? I mean, I get it that it is moreso a "family night out" than anything else, but once that newness wears off I am thinking that you'll see decreasing returns (which, so far the numbers seem to show for the Stormchasers, and a few other teams..heck, once UNO Hockey's newness wore off the folks that remained were largely just Hockey nuts...which was fine by me). Combine that with what you and others have already stated with decreasing interest, I can't help but wonder if those other revenue streams will start drying up...you need fan support (even if it isn't in the seats) to drive the brand.

Also can't help but wonder if we're seeing this finally in Nebraska Football.

They talked about it in the OWH when the stadiums were being built. Winning was not even a top five factor in why people attend minor league baseball. There were all kinds of things in front of it, promotions, company outings, weather, etc. They even said half the people exiting the stadiums did not know the score or who won that day.

I'll be honest I'm the same way. My main reason to go is to see prospects. It's great when the win but I'm more there to see Hosmer and Moose than I am to see the Chasers win the PCL. My kids want to go and play in the outfield stuff. My 11 year olds biggest factor is he now wants to go to every Bark in the Park promotion they have. He loves going with his dog.

Greg
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Greg S
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Re: Pennant Place (126 & Highway 370)

Post by Greg S »

MadMartin8 wrote:
omaha79 wrote: Without having time to do any in depth research at the moment, why are the playoff games at Werner some of the lowest attended of the season...even when they are on the normally well attended Thu-Sat slots? I went to the game in 2014 when the Chasers won the PCL at home. It was a beautiful 75 degree sunny Sunday afternoon...and the announced attendance was 3,600. Actual was probably less. Everyone loves a winner. So, if winning the PCL truly moved the needle here, why wasn't there 7k in attendance that day? This is typical for all of the playoff games Werner Park has hosted and typical for MILB as a whole (some teams do better than others though). Look up the box scores. They are available on the Chasers website. Those games were all terrible for attendance.
If they weren't winning, do you think those (granted not the playoff, but overall) numbers would be lower? Greater? Unimpacted? That's my question.
Yes, this is anecdotal, but discuss the play on the field and how it affects attendance with someone like Martie Cordaro and he would probably say that 2% is just about right.
A 10% increase in win total 2% bump in attendance, so it compounds.
If anything, I'm more shocked that the KC Royals success from 2014-2015 didn't boost attendance a bit. I would see that as more of a motivator for people to come out to Chasers games vs. the Chasers actual season success.

Overall though, I would say things like ballpark amenities and things to do around the ballpark have a higher ability to affect attendance going forward than anything the Storm Chasers or Royals are doing on the field at any given time.
I won't argue (and am not really arguing) that park amenities and the festival atmosphere plays the primary role especially in a family atmosphere. I'm just saying, and rightfully so, that winning also impacts overall numbers, and can act to stem tides in rapid declines in attendance as seen with some other teams in this area.

I would bet the weather this summer had a far far greater impact than the winning. We did not go at all anytime in July because it was so freakin' hot. We'd normally hit 5 or 6 games in that time span. I'd ask the family if anyone wanted to go, the responses I got were always about the heat.

Greg
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