Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

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Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby lonnie » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:40 am

The OWH (POSTED: MONDAY, JUNE 1, 2015) provided a great overview of how Oak View Mall has fallen in the last few years, and what can be done to fix it.

Malls' fortunes flipped: How Westroads shot past Oak View, and what's next for each
http://www.omaha.com/money/malls-fortun ... d5efd.html

So, pretend you are with General Growth Properties, and it is your job to fix Oak View Mall, what would you do ?

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby lonnie » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:59 am

Redevelop to offer products from around the world, speciality foods and spices, fashion, furniture, etc., stuff you would not necessarily find at either Village Pointe or Westroads. Of course some of the existing stores would remain.

Replace either Sears or J.C. Penney with a large Cost Plus World Markets store.

Specifically, on the first level have several new restaurants keyed to specific cities, like Rome, Paris, Tokyo, Berlin, etc. with *live* video streams from landmark views in those cities projected on the walls or large displays. The food and ambiance would match.

Stepping into the mall should be like going on a mini-vacation.

Finally, change the name to "World View Mall".

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Greg S » Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:11 pm

It's going to be rough long term. The indoor malls heyday is past. I think Omaha has the need for one good one and that's it. Same as Des Moines.

I only go to a mall about every other month. I probably go to Westroads 6 times a year and Oak View maybe once. I honestly can't come up with anything that would reverse that, other than if they suddenly had major crime issues at Westroads.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Trips » Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:40 pm

How is Crossroads at 56% full if the numbers do not include stores larger than 10,000 ft? What is still in there beside the big box stores? I could not find a website for them.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Seth » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:12 pm

Trips wrote:How is Crossroads at 56% full if the numbers do not include stores larger than 10,000 ft? What is still in there beside the big box stores? I could not find a website for them.


No kidding. I didn't realize there were that many stores selling knock-off purses.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby RNcyanide » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:35 pm

There's a costume store, a knock-off Bath and Body Works, one of those Finishline-type stores, and I think one of the bays is being rented out for office space. Then there's Sears and Target and Barnes and Noble's. That's all that comes to mind from the last time I remember walking around in there.
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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby RNcyanide » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:36 pm

I've also heard that the Express in Oakview is moving out to NEX from people who work/used to work there. That'll be a major loss.
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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:30 pm

One of the quotes from the experts in that article was golden. It said that vacancies lead to more vacancies and it becomes a downward spiral. We all were wondering if the massive vacancies in the stores outside the mall were not going to hurt the malls image. I think we now have a clear answer that it did. Hyvee, Best Buy and many others pulled out even CiCis pizza shut down. Devastating closings along that outer road might of spooked the herd. Sure it did. The minds of those shopaholic women and their daughters can be fickle indeed. Crazy as it sounds the fix may be to do away with all those shells of former retail giants along that outer road so that the public does not have to see that massive failure as they drive into the mall.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby GetUrban » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:25 pm

It's strange how shopping malls all seem to die or need complete revamping eventually. It's happened to The Center, Southroads, Crossroads, Westroads, Oakview, and the first Nebraska Crossing. Oakview started dying long before the new NEX, but I can't help thinking NEX is sucking all of the life out of Oakview now. It's actually easier to get to NEX for most people. Maybe if they redeveloped Oakview into more of a mixed-use area, it would make a comeback...or maybe build an amusement park there on site, next to a new parking garage. Grandpasmucker is right though... people are fickle.
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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Seth » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:08 pm

GetUrban wrote:It's strange how shopping malls all seem to die or need complete revamping eventually.


They definitely are very fragile ecosystems. I think the image suffers a lot more than a more traditional street-fronted commercial area, since closed stores are much more of an eyesore, and give off he "run-down and vacant" vibe a lot more strongly.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby GetUrban » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:48 pm

In many ways, Shopping Malls are similar to neighborhoods, CBD's, etc. in that they all decay over time and are subject to individual components constantly changing/evolving, for better or worse. They have their highs and lows . It's nice when the high points can keep repeating over time. One minute you're hot, the next minute you're out...as Heidi Klum says on the show Project Runway.

It's best to not think of them as static things, but as things that are constantly changing and evolving and in need of fresh infusions of creativity or restoration occasionally, in addition to constant maintenance.
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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Greg S » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:35 am

Malls themselves are dying. They are not building new ones to replace old ones. Their prime is long gone.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby nativeomahan » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:23 pm

And 25 years ago absolutely nobody would have predicted the demise of the large enclosed mall. We recently visited Oak Park in Overland Park, Kansas. A huge mall similar to Westroads, and it is still packing them in, despite not being anywhere near as nice as Westroads in terms of appearance. But they have Nordstrom's and a large Macy's. And many other popular retail stores are located just outside the mall.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby bigredmed » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:34 pm

What is the organic reason to go there?

They need some clear reason to make someone who could more easily get to the westroads or NEX go to Oakview instead. Nothing comes to mind for me.

It's not a bad looking place, it is awkward to use and this is an issue.

I agree that you need to do something like a Nordstroms or some other quality store not seen in Omaha. I can't say that a Macy's would do it given how crappy that store has become.

Too bad you couldn't get some sporting goods store in there. The big empty spaces would make cool ranges or try it before you buy it test tracks.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:06 pm

Down thought times may be, the
Oak View Mall still does 5 times the business Nex does. Oak View will be around long after NEX craps out in 5 years. There I said it. Lets get real people! :mrgreen:

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby lonnie » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:14 pm

I think the demise of indoor malls has been overstated. Shoppers like new retail venues, and most recent new shopping centers are open, outdoor designs because they are less expensive to build. These outdoor centers will become old and stale as well.

Weather climates found in Omaha, Minneapolis or Dubai will remind people why indoor malls were built.

As for the Oak View Mall, it needs unique retail, not the same-old-stuff that is repeated with each General Growth property.

I recall Trenton Magid (KFAB Grow Omaha) suggesting several times that a "Fashion Mall" could be built on a piece of the Boys Town property near Dodge, should they be willing to sell. The Oak View Mall could be an alternative location for Trenton's idea, (whatever a "Fashion Mall" is).

I think the best first step is for General Growth to sell or long-term-lease the Oak View Mall, as such their hands would be clean if new Oak View retailers drew against the Westroads and angered their tenants.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Greg S » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:03 am

I'm not sure how you can overstate the death of the mall. They aren't building them anymore, and many are closed or dying.

I don't think we will see many built new going forward, if any. I don't know of any under construction anywhere right now. If there are, I bet it's less than 5 in the whole US.

Weather is why I think Westroads will be fine but it's not enough of a reason for a new mall to be built or to save Oak View. One thing that was interesting to watch when Village Pointe was built was to see how it does during winter and summer. It seems to do fine.

If we go to a mall in KC we go to Oak Park. I think it's the only mall that is thriving in all of KC. If we go shopping down there we go to Legends (though with NEX up here, there is less of a draw there) or Zona Rosa.

A Macy's or Nordstroms would definitely help Oak View. If it were Macy's, I'd go but not sure I'd go into the mall part. I still have luck at Macy's, they have great private label stuff. If Macy's were to start building stores again, I could see them going to more of a outdoor or lifestyle development here vs Oak View.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Joe_Sovereign » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:15 pm

You could build a parking garage and use the Mall surface lots to build apartment complexes and a hotel or two. You already have a Movie Theater and Bowling Entertainment business in the area. Focus on making the whole area walkable and improve traffic patterns, fill the food court with local food stalls instead of cheap national chains. Put some bars and sit down restaurants in the mall. Take the old Best Buy and Toys r Us and develop a office building or two.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby GetUrban » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:38 pm

Better yet, wipe the site clean and put in a grid of streets like Dundee or Benson, with storefronts of shops and restaurants/bars with residential/office above and parking garages behind. Add 2-3 Anchor department stores in the mix, along with a movie theater, library, and maybe another Metro Campus. Replace what the malls killed starting back in the 50-60-70s.
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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby cdub » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:04 pm

A fashion mall = regency fashion court. Thats what it was at that time anyway. Maybe they are even more focused now.

I think the enclosed malls will survive, but like everything, we build too much to sustain once things change a bit.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby lonnie » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:17 pm

It is interesting to look at the numbers (from public assessor records)

Oak View Mall:

400,000 sq. ft.

1999 - Real Estate Transaction for $ 112 M

2015 - Current assessment $ 72 M

So if someone offered General Growth $ 100 M, that is $ 250 / sq. ft.

What is new office construction today ? Would it make economic sense for a company to make this their corporate campus ? Example move California PayPal headquarters to Omaha.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Seth » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:23 pm

lonnie wrote:What is new office construction today ? Would it make economic sense for a company to make this their corporate campus ? Example move California PayPal headquarters to Omaha.


Except the type of construction used for indoor malls does not age particularly well, and requires regular costly maintenance. Once you factor in interior demo and construction, it's not much cheaper than build new cheap big-box construction.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby iamjacobm » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:30 pm

I've mentioned this theory before, but I really think the rise of social media has been a big reason that malls have past their peak. They used to be a place to socialize with friends as much as they were retail destinations, now there is little reason to mill about the mall b/c we can all catch up with friends every second of the day. That is one reason why outdoor malls have become popular, they let you get in and out of the store you want easier. They don't need indoor because people aren't using it as a gathering place. That means outdoor malls can't fill bays with the niche stores that indoor ones can because people aren't being forced to walk by that store to get to the actual place they wanted. Outdoor malls need to have good destination concepts in every bay.

Saying that, converting one wing of the structure into an outpatient medical center is an interesting idea. Basically the same concept as Think except in the mall. Could offer people in the waiting room things to do while they wait and get a different kind of use into the area.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby daveoma » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:31 pm

Joe_Sovereign wrote:You could build a parking garage and use the Mall surface lots to build apartment complexes and a hotel or two. You already have a Movie Theater and Bowling Entertainment business in the area. Focus on making the whole area walkable and improve traffic patterns, fill the food court with local food stalls instead of cheap national chains. Put some bars and sit down restaurants in the mall. Take the old Best Buy and Toys r Us and develop a office building or two.

I totally agree with this. You could basically create new mixed use districts.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:48 pm

Its the economy stupid. Malls are full of high priced stuff we don't really need. The economy is not really doing that great. When and if the economy get picks up we will see a lot of the malls doing just fine. Money is still tight out there.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby GetUrban » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:08 pm

Plus, people are buying a lot more things online. If you know what you want, why not just have it delivered right to your doorstep or desk at work? That has to be a factor. Most of the kids hanging out at the malls probably weren't buying much anyway. Selling products is what keeps these places open.
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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby nebugeater » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:17 am

GetUrban wrote:Plus, people are buying a lot more things online. If you know what you want, why not just have it delivered right to your doorstep or desk at work? That has to be a factor. Most of the kids hanging out at the malls probably weren't buying much anyway. Selling products is what keeps these places open.


I think you are underestimating the buying power of the teens that used to hang at the malls. I remember MANY reports of the disposable income of working teens with no fixed expenses over the years and how much of an impact it was / is.
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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Greg S » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:50 am

Yeah, kids at the mall were/are a retail force. Lots of dollars involved. They impacted so many facets as well, stores, food court, movies, etc.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Omaha_corn_burner » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:29 pm

Long time lurker, just signed up.

I live near Oakview but always go to Westroads. They should build an entertainment district that extends out from AMC. Bars, restaurants, brew pub. Ditch the trampoline idea at HyVee and make it into a karting place or paintball/laser tag. Kohl's is kinda stuck in there though. If money was no object, move Kohls to where HyVee is (tear down & rebuild).

I think they should have done this at Village Pointe also. I'm very disappointed with Village Pointe. Too small and just one row of retail.
Here are two such entertainment area implementations. Flat Iron Crossing in Broomfield CO and Westgate in Glendale AZ.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby skinzfan23 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:40 pm

Yeah I agree Village Pointe and Shadow Lake aren't the best design. At least at Village Pointe, you can walk down the strip and visit all the stores. At Shadow Lake the big box stores and most of the restaurants are on an outer strip which doesn't entice people to walk from one end to the other. Maybe someday they could fill in some of the parking lots with more stores, but last summer I was at the Verizon store and then needed to go to Best Buy, but it is nearly 1/2 mile with nothing between them but parking lot.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby iamjacobm » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:37 pm

What is funny(depressing?) is that most of these ideas being thrown around are more ambitious than what we have proposed for an actual indoor mall redevelopment at Crossroads.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Linkin5 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:36 pm

iamjacobm wrote:What is funny(depressing?) is that most of these ideas being thrown around are more ambitious than what we have proposed for an actual indoor mall redevelopment at Crossroads.


When StreetsofOmaha started going crazy he proposed building a moat around Oak View, sadly his vision never materialized.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Coyote » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Linkin5 wrote:When StreetsofOmaha started going crazy he proposed building a moat around Oak View, sadly his vision never materialized.


StreetsOfOmaha wrote:Tito's, I didn't mean to throw you under the bus.  I just didn't remember it being declared that we were only concerned with auto access in this discussion and I was trying to make a point about the assumptions people make about accessibility. Sorry to come down so hard.

I agree, especially in the event the moat is implemented, that we should improve ferry access to Oakview.  :;):
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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Linkin5 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:12 pm

Coyote wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:When StreetsofOmaha started going crazy he proposed building a moat around Oak View, sadly his vision never materialized.


StreetsOfOmaha wrote:Tito's, I didn't mean to throw you under the bus.  I just didn't remember it being declared that we were only concerned with auto access in this discussion and I was trying to make a point about the assumptions people make about accessibility. Sorry to come down so hard.

I agree, especially in the event the moat is implemented, that we should improve ferry access to Oakview.  :;):


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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Greg S » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:21 am

I had not realized we've not had a new mall since 2006. Jordan Creek must be one of the last built in the US.

I don't know when Oak View will die (probably will do well enough to survive but not thrive), but I don't ever see a true revival. I think they partly sealed their deal when they added JCPenney and Sears years ago. First they did not bring anyone new to the market, plus instead of adding additional space between those anchors and the food court, they just built them right on top of it. Kind of sealed the deal that they were always going to be second fiddle to Westroads. They dedicated way too much space to the retail on the outside of the mall vs the enclosed part.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby daveoma » Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:04 pm

I think Greg is right. By opening stores that already had a presence in Omaha they lost their competitive edge. Opening a Macy's could be Oak View Mall's coup de grace.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Joe_Sovereign » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:18 am

Greg S wrote:I had not realized we've not had a new mall since 2006. Jordan Creek must be one of the last built in the US.

I don't know when Oak View will die (probably will do well enough to survive but not thrive), but I don't ever see a true revival. I think they partly sealed their deal when they added JCPenney and Sears years ago. First they did not bring anyone new to the market, plus instead of adding additional space between those anchors and the food court, they just built them right on top of it. Kind of sealed the deal that they were always going to be second fiddle to Westroads. They dedicated way too much space to the retail on the outside of the mall vs the enclosed part.

Greg


The biggest problem will be when the anchors die. Sears particularly and also JCPenny may cease to exist in the next few years. Unless they are able to bring in unique new stores it could be big trouble for the mall.

The best idea would be to try to convert to a different model then the 100% retail traditional enclosed mall. I think the enclosed mall has appeal in the cold of the winter and the heat of the summer if you give people a reason to be there. Unique Bars, Unique Restaurants (both sit down and food court), Unique Retail, Entertainment options (Comedy Club, Live Music, Mini-Golf, Arcade, Driving Range, Water Park, Night Club, Pool Parties, Casino) would draw people especially if the weather outside is bad. Hotels and residential would add some permanent daily traffic and activity. You need new construction to show some commitment to the area not just desperate attempts to save a dying mall. An office complex could bring in daily lunch traffic and could use parking during the day that could be used by visitors at night and on weekends.

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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby HskrFanMike » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:36 pm

Demolishing Oak View makes no sense. The infrastructure is too valuable to justify throwing it away and building all new.

As Greg points out, it needs something unique to make it cool again. It does have the city's only DIllard's store, but frankly, Dillard's is much like Oak View was 20 years ago, except worse. Dillard's is just an expensive department store that isn't even novel or unique anymore. With Penney's, Sears, Younkers and Dillards, you have four anchors that don't carry the same cache that they did 20 years ago.

If Sears or Younkers would sell out to a Macy's or Nordstrom's, which could be the city's next Von Maur, that would help.

An overall refreshening would be good as well. Sad to see that they converted the old Champps Americana bar and restaurant into a eyewear place. What a waste in a prime location, essentially on the front door of the mall.

Westroads was looking long in the tooth after Oak View opened, and then they made changes. In about 10 years, Village Point will start looking a little dated, and Oak View can take advantage at that point.
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Re: Oak View Mall - Redevelopment Plan

Postby Garrett » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:38 am

What if they converted one of the wings into an entertainment wing? Bars, restaurants, etc. drinks can be carried from place to place, like a more adult food court so to speak.
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