MadMartin8 wrote:So many things to dislike about this. There is another "business park" like this with First National down the road. There is another shopping center with Village Pointe even closer. To top that, this could lower demand for downtown development.
Plus, I liked being able to drive past some green fields on my way home on 192nd.
Just another lame suburban sprawl deal, but whatever floats their boat.
The business park across from Boy's Town is almost entirely leased and is getting one of it's last major plot filled as we speak. Plus as the article noted we are painfully short on Class A space in the city. I also don't think there are many companies that would consider space on 192nd if they were really interested in downtown space.
This is also big because it will keep ALOT of business in the city limits and on the city tax rolls. As much as we see Sarpy growing like crazy we still don't see anything close to this office wise in Papillion or La Vista. This even more solidifies Omaha as king on the metro. If you go look at places like KC and Des Moines they have some major office space in their suburbs and in the case of KC, the Kansas side has pulled a number of MO side businesses with major incentives. Omaha still houses almost every major office employer in the metro, PayPal being the major exception.
I am never a complete fan of furthering sprawl, but this is positive growth for the city and we already have developed well past this intersection. Obviously I would prefer 540K in spec space downtown, but in reality the suburban market is still on fire. This fills a need.
And the apartment/retail side is whatever. Apartments will always fill up and I don't think they will get destination retail. Probably a drug store and a few strip malls.
Curse your well thought out and reasonable response! Â :P
MadMartin8 wrote:So many things to dislike about this. There is another "business park" like this with First National down the road. There is another shopping center with Village Pointe even closer. To top that, this could lower demand for downtown development.
Plus, I liked being able to drive past some green fields on my way home on 192nd.
Just another lame suburban sprawl deal, but whatever floats their boat.
The business park across from Boy's Town is almost entirely leased and is getting one of it's last major plot filled as we speak. Plus as the article noted we are painfully short on Class A space in the city. I also don't think there are many companies that would consider space on 192nd if they were really interested in downtown space.
This is also big because it will keep ALOT of business in the city limits and on the city tax rolls. As much as we see Sarpy growing like crazy we still don't see anything close to this office wise in Papillion or La Vista. This even more solidifies Omaha as king on the metro. If you go look at places like KC and Des Moines they have some major office space in their suburbs and in the case of KC, the Kansas side has pulled a number of MO side businesses with major incentives. Omaha still houses almost every major office employer in the metro, PayPal being the major exception.
I am never a complete fan of furthering sprawl, but this is positive growth for the city and we already have developed well past this intersection. Obviously I would prefer 540K in spec space downtown, but in reality the suburban market is still on fire. This fills a need.
And the apartment/retail side is whatever. Apartments will always fill up and I don't think they will get destination retail. Probably a drug store and a few strip malls.
Curse your well thought out and reasonable response! :P
Don't get me wrong I would much rather see 540K sq ft of office space, 500 apartments and 14 retail spaces go in at the Civic location than out west. Â Omaha just isn't that kind of city right now.
R and R rarely does class A. Â The plans look mostly like the B grade single story flex office stuff. Â I wish we didn't have to have 30 acres of the same exact thing.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill
MadMartin8 wrote:So many things to dislike about this. There is another "business park" like this with First National down the road. There is another shopping center with Village Pointe even closer. To top that, this could lower demand for downtown development.
Plus, I liked being able to drive past some green fields on my way home on 192nd.
Just another lame suburban sprawl deal, but whatever floats their boat.
The business park across from Boy's Town is almost entirely leased and is getting one of it's last major plot filled as we speak. Plus as the article noted we are painfully short on Class A space in the city. I also don't think there are many companies that would consider space on 192nd if they were really interested in downtown space.
This is also big because it will keep ALOT of business in the city limits and on the city tax rolls. As much as we see Sarpy growing like crazy we still don't see anything close to this office wise in Papillion or La Vista. This even more solidifies Omaha as king on the metro. If you go look at places like KC and Des Moines they have some major office space in their suburbs and in the case of KC, the Kansas side has pulled a number of MO side businesses with major incentives. Omaha still houses almost every major office employer in the metro, PayPal being the major exception.
I am never a complete fan of furthering sprawl, but this is positive growth for the city and we already have developed well past this intersection. Obviously I would prefer 540K in spec space downtown, but in reality the suburban market is still on fire. This fills a need.
And the apartment/retail side is whatever. Apartments will always fill up and I don't think they will get destination retail. Probably a drug store and a few strip malls.
Curse your well thought out and reasonable response! :P
Don't get me wrong I would much rather see 540K sq ft of office space, 500 apartments and 14 retail spaces go in at the Civic location than out west. Omaha just isn't that kind of city right now.
I think we are getting very close to that, though. All it takes is commitment at the willingness to go out at lure those kinds of developments here. I really do believe that all the apartments downtown that are coming online soon will help.
To me this "development" just screams, as S33 said, Cheap land, cheap development. It's why I am disappointed.
But in the day where every dollar counts what do you expect? If its a quarter the price to build out west vs downtown of course they are going to go the suburban route. Not only price but time also.. its way faster to build a bunch of 2-4 story office buildings than a 15 story tower downtown. Once all of the undeveloped land is filled up things will get better with towers and such but until then you can't expect a development company to choose a massive downtown project over a cheap and easy suburban project.
guitarguy wrote:But in the day where every dollar counts what do you expect? If its a quarter the price to build out west vs downtown of course they are going to go the suburban route. Not only price but time also.. its way faster to build a bunch of 2-4 story office buildings than a 15 story tower downtown. Once all of the undeveloped land is filled up things will get better with towers and such but until then you can't expect a development company to choose a massive downtown project over a cheap and easy suburban project.
If I were a developer, I would spring for the cheap land and ease of access, too. I guess that is why many think the "system" (for lack of a better term), is failing American cities.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill
Our culture of more fuel efficient cars is another factor leading to more suburban sprawl.. ever since probably the 50's when the car became what it is the notion of building cities like they did before the car culture came about has slowly been changing to cities built around easy access to interstates/freeways instead of trying to cram everyone into a downtown area because its hard to get people to commute.
guitarguy wrote:But in the day where every dollar counts what do you expect? If its a quarter the price to build out west vs downtown of course they are going to go the suburban route. Not only price but time also.. its way faster to build a bunch of 2-4 story office buildings than a 15 story tower downtown. Once all of the undeveloped land is filled up things will get better with towers and such but until then you can't expect a development company to choose a massive downtown project over a cheap and easy suburban project.
I expect things like this to happen, yes. I've never said different, I'm just sad that this is the reality. These large sprawling business parks are just depressing because they lack any form of character whatsoever. I'd rather have the open fields than this |expletive|, but yes, again, I realize the reality of the matter is far different than my ideal.
We've got a LOT of undeveloped land in Nebraska, so running out anytime soon it's happening. Building a stronger urban core is the key to changing the sprawl, and it's only now happening in Omaha. Aksarben and Shamrock are large projects that are going urban/downtown (respectively) rather than the suburbs, so there is certainly some movement in the east rather than the sprawl out here where I live.
guitarguy wrote:Our culture of more fuel efficient cars is another factor leading to more suburban sprawl.. ever since probably the 50's when the car became what it is the notion of building cities like they did before the car culture came about has slowly been changing to cities built around easy access to interstates/freeways instead of trying to cram everyone into a downtown area because its hard to get people to commute.
Combine that with what apparenty would seem that oil may be in abundance in North America for the foreseeable future. Â
Don't worry, though, the EPA will continue to push for ever-increasing emissions control, which will limit just how good of MPG our cars get. heck, most poeple don't realize how many quality cars are sold in Europe, instead of the US, because of the EPA.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill
As long as these places stay full for the foreseeable future bring on the construction. Â Dodge Street was always going to be a major corridor and this land was always destined to be built on. Â It will certainly be more interesting than the car dealership heck north of Dodge and it will help the office shortage. Â It was about a month ago that an OWH quoted someone saying that there are 30 firms looking for 850K sq ft of space in Omaha. Â That is a lot and it was going to have to include some new construction, since we have basically built up every block east of 192nd this lot makes sense.
The suburbs have cost and ease of development on their side. Â That is why it has been so important to see downtown/midtown turn into the entertainment center of the city to keep it viable. Â It is worth building downtown at a higher cost because of the amenities, but some people just want a floor with cubicles with parking right at the door for a low rent. Â You get that in the suburbs not downtown.
This isn't perfect, far from it, but it is a major investment.
A side note.. I was at Scheels today looking at firearms and I couldn't believe how much more is out that way vs when I moved in early 2010.. Very Impressive indeed!
True, but cheap for the developer and lease holder, that is.
The "real" costs such as extended infrastructure, flood control, fire & police protection, water use. trash & snow removal, etc. should also be factored in, plus added energy used for transportation. But I'm all for people living close to where they work, just near higher density commercial/office developments, maybe even "walkable" ones. The density in Old Mill has actually increased with the TD Ameritrade development, for example. It's the "Edge City" concept, or "commercial node" concept.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings" ...and then they were gone.
Cindy Gonzalez OWH wrote:Construction could begin on a 75,000-square-foot office building at Fountain West office park announced in 2013 by West Des Moines-based R&R Realty Group. The 40-acre site, southeast of the West Dodge Road and 192nd Street intersection, has been held up by discussions about the entry road configuration.
Louie wrote:Those parking lots are absolutely massive. How can that be necessary?
Because the private car is the only viable transportation option!
As of right now, it is. What would you have done differently as a developer?
The city chose to dismantle and defund mass transit for decades, your beef is with them.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill
The buildings are ugly. As for parking, forget density or decent design, wouldn't your employees rather park in an attached parking garage than 500ft away across a surface lot? Plus in a garage their cars are covered and protected from weather. Just from a practical perspective as a developer wouldn't you attract better retail and higher end office clients by doing a denser more advanced design and therefor make more money from the same amount of land?
Joe_Sovereign wrote:The buildings are ugly. As for parking, forget density or decent design, wouldn't your employees rather park in an attached parking garage than 500ft away across a surface lot? Plus in a garage their cars are covered and protected from weather. Just from a practical perspective as a developer wouldn't you attract better retail and higher end office clients by doing a denser more advanced design and therefor make more money from the same amount of land?
Now that's crazy talk.
I'm optimistically assuming that parking options would chime with the retail development.
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.
Brad wrote:Anyone know the price difference between Parking Garage and Surface Parking (including the cost to acquire the land)?
150K sqft parking structure could cost between 10-12 million to build, and this is more of a guess, but 1-2 million for the surface parking land (which is probably included in the purchase, anyway.
If I'm a developer, there's going to be acres of beautiful pavement.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill
Brad wrote:Anyone know the price difference between Parking Garage and Surface Parking (including the cost to acquire the land)?
150K sqft parking structure could cost between 10-12 million to build, and this is more of a guess, but 1-2 million for the surface parking land (which is probably included in the purchase, anyway.
If I'm a developer, there's going to be acres of beautiful pavement.
What if instead of acres of pavement you could be leasing out space in an additional office, retail, or residential building? You could build the parking structure in phase two or three as you remove the surface lots to build more office or multi-use buildings.
Joe_Sovereign wrote:
What if instead of acres of pavement you could be leasing out space in an additional office, retail, or residential building? You could build the parking structure in phase two or three as you remove the surface lots to build more office or multi-use buildings.
There's just too much cheap and available land to force them into efficiency. Add in the lack of retail demand, and you end up with that.
It's just surface parking. If down the road the area justifies greater need for density, it can be developed then.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill
Joe_Sovereign wrote:
What if instead of acres of pavement you could be leasing out space in an additional office, retail, or residential building? You could build the parking structure in phase two or three as you remove the surface lots to build more office or multi-use buildings.
There's just too much cheap and available land to force them into efficiency. Add in the lack of retail demand, and you end up with that.
It's just surface parking. If down the road the area justifies greater need for density, it can be developed then.
True but Aksarben Villiage is popular because of it's density not because land is so expensive in the area. Would love to see a developer try to duplicate Aksarben Villiage (or better) you can tell by the look of this project that the idea never crossed this developers mind.