Detroit

Kansas City, Denver, Minneapolis, and Coast to Coast

Moderators: Coyote, Omaha Cowboy, Brad, nebugeater, Candleshoe, the1wags

User avatar
RNcyanide
Planning Board
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Chalco

Postby RNcyanide » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:48 pm

At all risks of sounding stupid, but maybe I don't get how all these pension liabilities accrued in the first place. Wouldn't they have figured out that if they promised too many people too much money that this would have happened?
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.

The Bride

User avatar
guitarguy
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1292
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:39 am
Location: New York City..Soon To Be Omaha
Contact:

Postby guitarguy » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:49 pm

This is so dumb.. Where's NYC, LA, San Francisco, DC? These seems like revisionist journalism at its best conveniently omit the worst cities and write up a whole piece as a diversion It's staggering how much debt NYC is in.

User avatar
RNcyanide
Planning Board
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Chalco

Postby RNcyanide » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:52 pm

I think they are trying to point out the cities that people don't typically think about. Of course huge metropolises are going to have huge debt. But I don't think people would look at Buffett's stomping grounds and say, "Hey, I bet they have HUGE pension-related debts."
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.

The Bride

User avatar
guitarguy
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1292
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:39 am
Location: New York City..Soon To Be Omaha
Contact:

Postby guitarguy » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:53 pm

RNcyanide wrote:At all risks of sounding stupid, but maybe I don't get how all these pension liabilities accrued in the first place. Wouldn't they have figured out that if they promised too many people too much money that this would have happened?


This is due to the Unions.. They have strong armed themselves these pension contracts by threatening to shut down critical operations to a city. States that the Unions can collectively negotiate new pension contracts are loaded with cities that are being crushed by unfunded pension liability. In Omaha the lavish Police and Fire Fighter pensions is what is creating the debt burden here. Think about it.. every time a public sector union employee retires a large percentage of their finally salary is guaranteed for life but they still have to replace that position and pay good money for it as well. So it snow balls as more people retire and was never thought about as something that was unsustainable in any way.

User avatar
RNcyanide
Planning Board
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Chalco

Postby RNcyanide » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:57 pm

guitarguy wrote:
RNcyanide wrote:At all risks of sounding stupid, but maybe I don't get how all these pension liabilities accrued in the first place. Wouldn't they have figured out that if they promised too many people too much money that this would have happened?


This is due to the Unions.. They have strong armed themselves these pension contracts by threatening to shut down critical operations to a city. States that the Unions can collectively negotiate new pension contracts are loaded with cities that are being crushed by unfunded pension liability. In Omaha the lavish Police and Fire Fighter pensions is what is creating the debt burden here. Think about it.. every time a public sector union employee retires a large percentage of their finally salary is guaranteed for life but they still have to replace that position and pay good money for it as well. So it snow balls as more people retire and was never thought about as something that was unsustainable in any way.


That is what I thought, but I wanted to see if it wasn't something or someone else... This reminds me of how we had issues with officers retiring at 35 or 40 and then drawing a pension plus other benefits forever.
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.

The Bride

User avatar
RNcyanide
Planning Board
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Chalco

Postby RNcyanide » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:00 am

http://www.omaha.com/article/20130728/N ... tein-s-law

I keep hearing from several people I know personally and on TV that it was the Unions who led to the Detroit's fiscal demise, which does make sense to me. But because I don't want to live in an echo-chamber, I would like to see if there are other opinions out there...

So much city revenue had to be diverted to creditors and pensioners that there was practically nothing left to run the city. Forty percent of the streetlights don't work, two-thirds of the parks are closed and emergency police response time averages nearly an hour — if it comes at all.


Novak, is this true?
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.

The Bride

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Postby NovakOmaha » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:42 am

RNcyanide wrote:http://www.omaha.com/article/20130728/NEWS08/130729090/1677#charles-krauthammer-detroit-s-economy-joins-other-casualties-of-stein-s-law

I keep hearing from several people I know personally and on TV that it was the Unions who led to the Detroit's fiscal demise, which does make sense to me. But because I don't want to live in an echo-chamber, I would like to see if there are other opinions out there...

So much city revenue had to be diverted to creditors and pensioners that there was practically nothing left to run the city. Forty percent of the streetlights don't work, two-thirds of the parks are closed and emergency police response time averages nearly an hour — if it comes at all.


Novak, is this true?


There are so many sides to this story.  One thing that strikes me is that the city went from 1.8  million people to 700,000.  How can a city lose 61% of its population and have a tax base?  What would happen to Omaha if over half the population moved to Sarpy County?  There are many reasons why they left the city.  There is no one answer to this story.  

What I do know is that there will be a resolution to this.  I also know that the suburbs are in better shape and that there are many other cities in similar shape.

User avatar
RNcyanide
Planning Board
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Chalco

Postby RNcyanide » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:11 am

NovakOmaha wrote:
RNcyanide wrote:http://www.omaha.com/article/20130728/NEWS08/130729090/1677#charles-krauthammer-detroit-s-economy-joins-other-casualties-of-stein-s-law

I keep hearing from several people I know personally and on TV that it was the Unions who led to the Detroit's fiscal demise, which does make sense to me. But because I don't want to live in an echo-chamber, I would like to see if there are other opinions out there...

So much city revenue had to be diverted to creditors and pensioners that there was practically nothing left to run the city. Forty percent of the streetlights don't work, two-thirds of the parks are closed and emergency police response time averages nearly an hour — if it comes at all.


Novak, is this true?


There are so many sides to this story.  One thing that strikes me is that the city went from 1.8  million people to 700,000.  How can a city lose 61% of its population and have a tax base?  What would happen to Omaha if over half the population moved to Sarpy County?  There are many reasons why they left the city.  There is no one answer to this story.  

What I do know is that there will be a resolution to this.  I also know that the suburbs are in better shape and that there are many other cities in similar shape.


I don't want you to write a novel here, but what are some of the other sides? I really want to know lol.
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.

The Bride

User avatar
iamjacobm
City Council
Posts: 8847
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Midtown

Postby iamjacobm » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:19 am

http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/27/news/economy/detroit-federal-help/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

The White House said the money being announced Friday includes nearly $150 million that will go to help pay for demolition of blighted and abandoned properties, a major problem for a city that has lost a large percentage of its population and tax base in recent decades.

The next biggest chunk of money is nearly $140 million in transportation aid, including money to help renovate and rehabilitate city buses, adding security cameras to protect both drivers and passengers. There will also be support for a light-rail system now under construction and support of a new regional transit system.

Finally, there will be about $30 million in public safety assistance, with $25 million coming from the Federal Emergency Management Agency to hire 150 firefighters and buy equipment to help battle the problem of arson in the city, and $3 million in money from the Justice Department to beef up police, including establishing bike patrols.

Linkin5
County Board
Posts: 3818
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:59 pm

Postby Linkin5 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:35 am

Nice, lets send more money to Detroit and its corrupt officials.

User avatar
RNcyanide
Planning Board
Posts: 2748
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Chalco

Postby RNcyanide » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:42 am

:roll:
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.

The Bride

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Postby NovakOmaha » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:03 am

A lot of this is either happening now or will in the near future, the rest is proposed.  The downtown/Midtown area is going nuts with development.  The rest of the city not much.  Meijer, a Michigan version of Target/Walmart/Super KMart, just opened within the city limits of Detroit and there are a few other things going on outside of the Downtown/Midtown area.  I don't know the answer for the city and I doubt that anything short of shrinking the city will do.  Detroit did just elect a really good guy Mayor.  We'll see what he can do.

Here's the link to the Huffington Post article.  Yeah, I know, Huffington Post, but still...


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/26/detroit-in-20-years-2033_n_4269422.html

By the way, not all of it will take 20 years.

Enjoy your Thanksgivakah, those who celebrate such things.  The rest of you enjoy your turkey...

User avatar
S33
County Board
Posts: 4552
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 12:15 pm

Postby S33 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:05 pm

NovakOmaha wrote:
Enjoy your Thanksgivakah, those who celebrate such things.  The rest of you enjoy your turkey...
Just stuff a turkey with yaprak, make everyone happy.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill

User avatar
jessep28
Planning Board
Posts: 2360
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:10 pm
Location: Omaha Metro Area

Postby jessep28 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:18 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOtVa9uMivo[/youtube]
Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit

Postby NovakOmaha » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:44 pm

I just found this. Its cool.

My new hometown

[BBvideo 560,340]http://vimeo.com/88981135[/BBvideo]

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit New Hockey Arena District

Postby NovakOmaha » Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:28 pm

Mike Ilich, owner of the Red Wings and Little Caesars Pizza and other businesses, plans to build a new hockey arena downtown. He also envisions a "hockey arena district".

Here are some details.

Renderings

Story

There are a lot of links regarding this. I think the bottom line is that like Mutual, the Ilich family has the money & connections to get this done. Downtown already has relatively new stadiums for the Tigers & Lions and the Joe (Joe Louis Arena) is old, small and doesn't have the amenities necessary for the 21st century. Don't get me wrong, it's fun to go to a Red Wings game, but the Joe is sorely lacking. The location for the new arena is close to Comerica Park and Ford Field, as well as the rest of downtown. I have never felt unsafe going downtown, even at night.
By the way, they upped the seating from 18,000 to 20,000


Here is another story. Its from Channel 4, the NBC affiliate.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/ilitch-organization-announces-plans-for-dynamic-new-arena-district/27045944


Take a look and let me know your thoughts.

Greg S
County Board
Posts: 3607
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:46 am

Re: Detroit

Postby Greg S » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:16 pm

Another one:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2014 ... wait-hurt-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MadMartin8
Planning Board
Posts: 2134
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:48 pm
Location: Beyond Thunderdome

Re: Detroit

Postby MadMartin8 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:07 pm

That's a beautiful new Hockey Barn. I loved the Joe, but my Wings need something new.
No posts exist for this topic

User avatar
skinzfan23
County Board
Posts: 5193
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:26 am
Location: Omaha/Bellevue

Re: Detroit

Postby skinzfan23 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:17 pm

I think the new facility looks fantastic. I bought my car in Detroit and walked around downtown by myself about 6 years ago. The areas where I walked (Stadium, theater, GM HQ's and the riverfront) all looked pretty nice. I did think the current arena did look pretty dated, so the new one is a much needed replacement. Knowing it was built in 1979, I am sure the inside could be much nicer as well like the new proposed arena.

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit

Postby NovakOmaha » Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:58 pm

In the six years since you were here a lot has been done downtown & a lot more is on the way. Soon they are starting work on a streetcar line up Woodward (Detroit's Dodge St.) The guy who owns Quicken Loans moved the whole company downtown & he personally bought a ton of buildings & fixed them up. The city might be third world in places but downtown & midtown are going nuts.

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit

Postby NovakOmaha » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:39 pm

Downtown Detroit Booming

This is what happens when people with passion invest.

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit

Postby NovakOmaha » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:53 pm

Some of what is going on in Downtown and Midtown Detroit. I like the slider before & after pics. I read in the paper that over the past few years downtown Detroit has seen $7 billion in investment.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2015/03/what_could_detroit_look_like_i_1.html#0

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit (Arena District Preview Center)

Postby NovakOmaha » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:36 pm

This is a video of the preview center they've set up near The District, the 50 square block area around and including the new Red Wings arena. Construction of the arena is well underway. The difference between this preview center and the one for Omaha's Wall Street Tower is that in Detroit's case both the preview center AND the development are taking place.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/a-lo ... ure-arena/

User avatar
RockHarbor
Human Relations
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:42 am
Location: Omaha

Re: Detroit

Postby RockHarbor » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:49 am

I recently came to learn of this old book "Buildings of Detroit", and I'm so impressed by it, that I came here to possibly start a post on it. But, I scrolled through this section first, and I saw this "Detroit" thread, so I'll just put the link here.

I don't know about anybody else here, but I'm fascinated with the architecture of Detroit. If that city were fully restored, it would a gorgeous northern metropolis, imo, one of the finest examples of a city in North America with an abundance of fine, historic American architecture to view. I love the Motor City's historic buildings. Some are just unbelievably ornate. Thankfully, things are getting restored there. Anyways, this book has big, wonderful pictures of all the old buildings & skyscrapers, and plenty of text. I found it on Amazon. It appears it was first published in 1969 -- yet, the version I found was a revision of the first printing released in 1980, which has an entry for the Renaissance Center. If you scroll down, there's a newer 2012 version available. Really awesome book! Just wanted to mention it here...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Buildings-of- ... of+detroit
"Crossroads Village" down the street from "Aksarben Village?" Does "Crossroads" have any meaning to people 20 and under? "Dodge At 72nd" is a type name I like better, drawing from the excitement of the iconic, special Omaha intersection. My $.02.

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit

Postby NovakOmaha » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:57 pm

Want to know what Omaha needs to make downtown really grow? Someone like Dan Gilbert. He owns Quicken Loans, the Cleveland Cavs, & has spent over $2Billion buying 95 properties in downtown Detroit. One thing is for sure: He's not going to sell out & have his company move to Chicago.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20 ... n-20161031

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit (More from Dan Gilbert. This is big)

Postby NovakOmaha » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:16 pm

Dan Gilbert, the Quicken Loans & Cleveland Cavaliers (among lots of others) guy, is remaking Detroit.

http://hudsonssitedetroit.com/

buildomaha
Home Owners Association
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: Detroit

Postby buildomaha » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:25 pm

Wow.

If only Omaha had a super-rich dude who puts their cash into philanthropic projects...

Greg S
County Board
Posts: 3607
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:46 am

Re: Detroit

Postby Greg S » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:42 am

Initially I heard 60 stories, is it now 52?

Greg

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit

Postby NovakOmaha » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:47 am

Greg S wrote:Initially I heard 60 stories, is it now 52?

Greg


For now, Greg, yes. While Gilbert has pretty much done what he said he'd do in his other projects this is still fluid and I heard on the radio that he reserves the right to downsize the project if the legislature doesn't do what he wants with tax incentives.

Greg S
County Board
Posts: 3607
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:46 am

Re: Detroit

Postby Greg S » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:47 am

NovakOmaha wrote:
Greg S wrote:Initially I heard 60 stories, is it now 52?

Greg


For now, Greg, yes. While Gilbert has pretty much done what he said he'd do in his other projects this is still fluid and I heard on the radio that he reserves the right to downsize the project if the legislature doesn't do what he wants with tax incentives.



Hopefully they come through. Gilbert has been great, and so to the Illitch family.

User avatar
iamjacobm
City Council
Posts: 8847
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Midtown

Re: Detroit

Postby iamjacobm » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:32 am

Decent read about the progress that still needs to be made in the city. CityLab can get a little preachy in their articles, but usually provide good raw data.

https://www.citylab.com/housing/2017/02/detroits-recovery-the-lass-is-half-full-at-most/517194/#disqus_thread

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit

Postby NovakOmaha » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:15 pm

Yeah, it's got some truth to it. The job to do in the neighborhoods is nothing short of massive. They did redo the street lights & that had to be done. They are demolishing tens of thousands of abandoned homes. The thing is, what's happening in downtown & midtown & around them is amazing. Billions of dollars & thousands if not tens of thousands of jobs. Hopefully there will be some spillover to the nearby neighborhoods & there should. Apartments are about 100% full and office space is close to it. You could say that with all the new development downtown & in North Downtown, where is the help for north Omaha, which has been ignored for decades? There is a big difference between Omaha & Detroit that is annexation. Detroit ends at 8 mile & then you have a ton of suburbs that Detroit can't annex, or won't. There is so much blame for Detroit's woes that I won't even start. AND it doesn't matter. There is a new attitude now and it's working.

User avatar
PotatoeEatsFish
Library Board
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:59 pm

Re: Detroit

Postby PotatoeEatsFish » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:06 pm

NovakOmaha wrote:Yeah, it's got some truth to it. The job to do in the neighborhoods is nothing short of massive. They did redo the street lights & that had to be done. They are demolishing tens of thousands of abandoned homes. The thing is, what's happening in downtown & midtown & around them is amazing. Billions of dollars & thousands if not tens of thousands of jobs. Hopefully there will be some spillover to the nearby neighborhoods & there should. Apartments are about 100% full and office space is close to it. You could say that with all the new development downtown & in North Downtown, where is the help for north Omaha, which has been ignored for decades? There is a big difference between Omaha & Detroit that is annexation. Detroit ends at 8 mile & then you have a ton of suburbs that Detroit can't annex, or won't. There is so much blame for Detroit's woes that I won't even start. AND it doesn't matter. There is a new attitude now and it's working.


Benson which was very sketchy for a long time is now a hip neighborhood. Florence was run down until it was fixed up a couple of years ago and now it's a nice place. North Omaha is getting better, slowly but still.
I got that Milf $

Greg S
County Board
Posts: 3607
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:46 am

Re: Detroit

Postby Greg S » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:51 am

NovakOmaha wrote:Yeah, it's got some truth to it. The job to do in the neighborhoods is nothing short of massive. They did redo the street lights & that had to be done. They are demolishing tens of thousands of abandoned homes. The thing is, what's happening in downtown & midtown & around them is amazing. Billions of dollars & thousands if not tens of thousands of jobs. Hopefully there will be some spillover to the nearby neighborhoods & there should. Apartments are about 100% full and office space is close to it. You could say that with all the new development downtown & in North Downtown, where is the help for north Omaha, which has been ignored for decades? There is a big difference between Omaha & Detroit that is annexation. Detroit ends at 8 mile & then you have a ton of suburbs that Detroit can't annex, or won't. There is so much blame for Detroit's woes that I won't even start. AND it doesn't matter. There is a new attitude now and it's working.



So true on Omaha and annexation. Has really helped Omaha stay strong over the long haul.

Greg

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit

Postby NovakOmaha » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:41 pm

Dan Gilbert wasn't satisfied with his tower just being a few feet taller than the RenCen.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2017/09/13/detroit-gilbert-architecture-hudsons-development/663439001/

Greg S
County Board
Posts: 3607
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:46 am

Re: Detroit

Postby Greg S » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:54 am

Weird article. Under the pic of the soccer field it says it's tough to keep track of all the developments in downtown Dettroit, so here a sample. Then it only really talks about Gilbert's building.

Greg

User avatar
Garrett
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:29 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Detroit

Postby Garrett » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:20 am

Greg S wrote:Weird article. Under the pic of the soccer field it says it's tough to keep track of all the developments in downtown Dettroit, so here a sample. Then it only really talks about Gilbert's building.

Greg


That's because that picture is a video. The OWH does similar things all the time where it puts a semi-related video with an article.
From Omaha to Chicago
From Axel to Garrett

Still the same guy

NovakOmaha
Parks & Recreation
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

Re: Detroit

Postby NovakOmaha » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:42 am

That's what happens when an ink-dependent media tries to enter the 21st century. Both papers need to stick to ink & paper.


Return to “Elsewhere”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest