Sioux City

Post by **Coyote** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:50 pm

Here are a few photos from our neighbor Sioux City (founded 1854) more at: http://necoyote.com/places/sioux.html

Krummann Block (1889) and Bay State Block (1890)

Lee Block (1910) Major Block (1889) Levich/Nelson Building (1908)

The Badgerow Building (1933) the "Monarch of the City" Sioux City's tallest (12 floors)

City Hall

Sioux City High School (1893) "The Castle on the Hill" renovated by NuStyle into apartments

Pierce Mansion (1893) now Sioux City Public Museum

DMRyan · Post by **DMRyan** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:57 pm

That's funny, I got many of the same photos when I was there last week for a convention. Quite the hilly and industrial place with a nice riverfront.

projectman · Post by **projectman** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:02 pm

Sioux City has some nice architectural treasures. Nice shots Coyote.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:37 pm

It looks like there's some great old buildings there.

Does anyone know if SC has been doing any 150th birthday celebration stuff like Omaha, since they were both founded in 1854?

Post by **Coyote** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:01 pm

Thanks projectman.
Streets - I just looked through their 2004-2005 visitors guide
which highlights Lewis and Clark, but on the back page
the city of Sergeant Bluff advertises their 150th celebration
which was from August 13-20.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:11 pm

Sioux City is a nice little place. I have a cousin who lives there on the south side near the airport. I would like to see CB become more like Sioux City.

projectman · Post by **projectman** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:55 pm

Except for the smell. It's something I can't get past when driving in through I-29.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:03 pm

I've only been up there a couple of times, but each time there was definitely a "bad smell" lingering in the air.

Post by **Coyote** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:56 pm

It wasn't too long ago that South Omaha had that smell.
"It's the smell of Money"

DMRyan · Post by **DMRyan** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:42 pm

I've certainly seen downtowns in much worse shape than Sioux City's. Parts of it are a little rough, but I'm impressed with how much renovation has gone on in a city that's really not doing too hot.

This could be the reason for the smell. There are still operable meat packing plants in Sioux City and entire metro is chock full of industry.

The LA Basin? No, the Sioux City basin

KD Station (former packing plant and failed entertainment complex)

Here's a couple of photos from my recent trip there.
Badgerow Building and Terra Center

4th Street Entertainment District

City Hall

Finance Building

Tyson Events Center

Anderson Pavillion

Sioux Hotel

Veteran's Bridge @ night

Skyline Shots

DMRyan · Post by **DMRyan** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:45 pm

And if by small town mentality you mean an area with plenty of conservatives, I agree with you.

sokkerdewd · Post by **sokkerdewd** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:27 pm

While Sioux City is making strides, it's definately not thriving like its neighbor to the north, Sioux Falls...which actually used to be much smaller than Sioux City. But then again, it's done a heck of a lot better than St. Joseph. Hopefully the I-29 corridor can be consistent in its progress, rather than limiting it to Omaha, KC, Sioux Falls and Fargo...the rest of it seems to be rather stagnant or in decline.

projectman · Post by **projectman** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:02 pm

Is Fargo on the move? I didn't think anything in North Dakota was growing.

DMRyan · Post by **DMRyan** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:17 pm

Fargo is growing at a pretty good clip too.

It's funny the anamosity that Sioux Falls and Sioux City (outsiders probably wouldn't be able to distinguish the two) share for each other. I toured the Tyson Events Center and several of the local leaders kept on taking snipes at Sioux Falls. Apparently, Sioux Falls has been leading the development game for so long now that they're quickly scrambling to put together an arena that rivals or beats the very successful Tyson Center. Apparently, it's the #8 sales grossing arena in the world in the 5,000-10,000 people seating bracket.

About the downtown retail, I was surprised they were able to keep a JCPenny's and a Younker's downtown for as long as they did. Try visiting a mid-sized or smaller Texas city if you really want to see what a dead downtown looks like. Fourth Street is actually pretty cool, all things considered. There's some pretty good-sized bars/clubs, a nudie book store, a strip club and several good restaurants. It's no Old Market, but a very impressive start.

And what is all this buzz of South Dakota and Dakota Dunes? I crusied around this portion of the metro for a while but left quite dissapointed. It may be the happening upscale master-planned community in the region, but it's a tiny little area with an office park, a smattering of retail and a golfcourse. I was expecting more of a real suburban city, but what I got was nothing more than a suburban neighborhood.

projectman · Post by **projectman** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:31 pm

I have always thought that Sioux Falls was way out of Sioux City's league. South Dakota's largest city just seemed to be more progressive than it's neighbor to the south.

Sioux Falls 2003 estimated population : 133, 834 - Ranked 169th largest city in USA. Up from 174th largest in 2000(123,975). It's moving right up.

Sioux City 2003: 98,000 falling below the 100,000 mark and not ranked by the Census Bureau.

DMRyan · Post by **DMRyan** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:50 pm

I have always thought that Sioux Falls was way out of Sioux City's league. South Dakota's largest city just seemed to be more progressive than it's neighbor to the south.

Sioux Falls 2003 estimated population : 133, 834 - Ranked 169th largest city in USA. Up from 174th largest in 2000(123,975). It's moving right up.

Sioux City 2003: 98,000 falling below the 100,000 mark and not ranked by the Census Bureau

Huh? Sioux City's 2003 estimated population is only 83,000 people with a metro of 124,000.

About the arena, at least Sioux City will get a couple of years in the limelight before/if Sioux Falls puts their arena up. I've never been to Sioux Falls. By the pictures it looks like it has a horribly undersized downtown, even with the city's growth. Anyone have any comments about Sioux Falls?

projectman · Post by **projectman** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:33 pm

My bad. I thought Sioux City was closer to 100,000. Couldn't find the exact figures.

PistolPete · Post by **PistolPete** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:19 am

Re: Sioux Falls vs. Sioux City

Sioux Falls has boomed throughout the 80s and 90s up until today. Sioux City has fallen down and stumbled ever since the 70s. Sioux City has only recently taken on a new face and attempted to compete with Sioux Falls-- and they've done it mostly using their downtown area. To put things in perspective, I don't believe there is even a parking garage in Downtown Sioux Falls that goes above 2 floors. Sioux Falls' growth and development has been completely suburban. Imagine a less upscale version of Omaha's western 'burbs and you'd get a good impression of the entire city of Sioux Falls-- I've never really seen anything like it anywhere. Their current crappy arena is out in the 'burbs near the airport. It's like one big suburb with no city or core.

Sioux Falls continues to blow Sioux City away when it comes to retail and restaurants as it acts as something of a regional trading post for all of South Dakota. But Sioux City is slowly adding its own suburban retail and restaurants(Cormac Company is putting together two HUGE retail projects), but just at a slower pace than Sioux Falls. Sioux City is very gritty and multicultural. South Sioux City, Nebraska schools are over 50% non-English speaking. Go to the mall or Wal-Marts and you cannot avoid hearing the many different dialects that make up the city. It is a pretty conservative town, but is definitely a place you can let loose and let your hair down-- I think there's a gay bar right behind the convention center. But TONS of old people complaining about things and trying to keep the area stagnant, but people mostly mind their own business.

I like Sioux City and don't care much for Sioux Falls. In three words I would classify Sioux Falls as boring, white, and clean.

omahaopinions.com · Post by **omahaopinions.com** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:54 am

DMRyan wrote: This could be the reason for the smell. There are still operable meat packing plants in Sioux City and entire metro is chock full of industry.

You've also got the stockyards and the sewers near the water treatment plant that are both along I-29 as you're driving through there. I have family that live in Sioux City, and it does not smell like that throughout the entire city. But it is a bad way to welcome travelers as they're driving through.

Downtown is pretty much dead except for the nightlife on the historic fourth street.

RyaninOrangeCounty · Post by **RyaninOrangeCounty** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:13 pm

My dad grew up in Sioux City and my grandparents still live there. I spent a lot of time going up there to visit throughout my childhood, so I guess I'll chime in on the subject.

The smell - Despite the posts, I believe that, just like South Omaha, the famous smell has subsided somewhat as more and more of the processing industry leaves the city and moves to places like Storm Lake, Norfolk, and Columbus. My dad has told me that the smell that lingers is related to fertilizer production and storage.

Architecture - Absolutely Sioux City is a very "old" place. Its heyday was well before the 1960s. As a result of this, much of the great architecture remains. My dad was one of the last classes to graduate from Central High in before its closure around 1970. He always said they called it "the castle on the hill." Others called it "the dump on the hump." Either way, hearing about its recent conversion to apartments is great news. Most of the other architectural highlights are pretty visible in DMRyan's photos. Thanks for sharing those.

Largely Unknown Factoid - One thing that I can share with you is that every year Sioux City puts on a FREE world class Blues Festival around the 4th of July in Grandview Park. I mean really world class. I saw Rita Marley, Big Head Todd, and Indigenous- all in 1997. Definitely a highlight.

omahaopinions.com · Post by **omahaopinions.com** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:35 pm

RyaninOrangeCounty wrote:Largely Unknown Factoid - One thing that I can share with you is that every year Sioux City puts on a FREE world class Blues Festival around the 4th of July in Grandview Park. I mean really world class. I saw Rita Marley, Big Head Todd, and Indigenous- all in 1997. Definitely a highlight.

Yep, it's called Saturday in the Park. I go there almost every year.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:30 pm

DMRyan wrote: (outsiders probably wouldn't be able to distinguish the two)

I couldn't. I thought I was going to a concert in Sioux City, Iowa and then realized I had to drive another 2-3 hours to South Dakota. Sioux Falls kind of remided me of Lincoln because they had a big college presence.

I would pick Sioux City out of the two of them. Their river area and DT are pretty. Not like Omaha but it's great for a city their size.

PistolPete · Post by **PistolPete** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:42 pm

DTO Luv wrote:
DMRyan wrote: (outsiders probably wouldn't be able to distinguish the two)
I couldn't. I thought I was going to a concert in Sioux City, Iowa and then realized I had to drive another 2-3 hours to South Dakota. Sioux Falls kind of remided me of Lincoln because they had a big college presence.

I would pick Sioux City out of the two of them. Their river area and DT are pretty. Not like Omaha but it's great for a city their size.

Sioux Falls is less than 90 miles from Sioux City and doesn't have any large college presence to speak of. There's a few very small colleges, but I'd estimate combined college population under 5,000.

omahaopinions.com · Post by **omahaopinions.com** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:27 am

DMRyan wrote:
Huh? Sioux City's 2003 estimated population is only 83,000 people with a metro of 124,000.
About the arena, at least Sioux City will get a couple of years in the limelight before/if Sioux Falls puts their arena up. I've never been to Sioux Falls. By the pictures it looks like it has a horribly undersized downtown, even with the city's growth. Anyone have any comments about Sioux Falls?

I've been downtown once in Sioux Falls, and if I can remember correctly...there really isn't much to it especially for a city of their size.

Sodak · Post by **Sodak** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:26 pm

I went to college in Sioux Falls (Augustana) and there isn't much to the downtown except for a financial presence (Wells Fargo, US Bank, Security National Bank, First National Bank of Sioux Falls). As far as taller buildings, the tallest building in Sioux Falls is an abandoned feed mill at something like 220 feet or so. The other taller buildings downtown:

Qwest Tower--11 stories
Riverview Apartments--12 stories
Holiday Inn City Centre--10 stories
US Bank Tower--10 stories
Security National Bank building--9 stories

Overall, though, Sioux Falls has really leapfrogged Sioux City in terms of economic growth and population growth. The Sioux Falls metro area is now around 200,000.

PistolPete · Post by **PistolPete** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:03 pm

Another sign of how suburban and backwards Sioux Falls is...SF is basically the equivalent of Papilion-Lavista with over 100,000 people.

Events center, yes, but not downtown

Denise D. Tucker
dtucker@argusleader.com

published: 10/1/2004

Poll suggests support for specific site

A new events center should be built in Sioux Falls but not downtown, according to a new poll sponsored by the Argus Leader and KELO-TV in Sioux Falls.

Of those polled, 53 percent were in favor of replacing the Arena with an events center with up to 12,000 seats, and 40 percent opposed the new facility. Seven percent were undecided.

"It's kind of an encouraging poll for the events center," said Mayor Dave Munson.

As for the location of a new facility, 47 percent polled did not want the events center downtown, 26 percent favored a downtown facility and 27 percent weren't sure.

The poll was conducted by Mason-Dixon Polling & Research in Washington, D.C. The firm phoned 180 likely voters in the Sioux Falls metropolitan area from Sept. 20-22.

The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 7 percentage points.

"It's paramount to start thinking of the events center. By the time you get from step A to step B, it's going to take a few years," said Sioux Falls resident Dan Sahr, 44, who was polled.

A 20-member task force appointed by Munson has been studying the prospect of an events center since May and settled on two locations: the current site of the Zip Feed mill along the Big Sioux River in north downtown or near the current Arena and Convention Center.

Out-of-town fears

Sahr said downtown would not be a good place because people from out of town might be afraid to drive there and would rather reach their destination just off the interstate.

"They don't want to drive in Sioux Falls," he said, and promoters want crowds from around the region.

Ray Reker, 79, of Sioux Falls said a new events center is unnecessary. He suggested that the Arena is plenty big, with a 6,800-seat capacity for many events.

"I think we've got enough room where we're at. We don't need to spend the taxpayers' money," Reker said. "The Washington Pavilion isn't making its way; why would we put up a unit that wouldn't benefit the people? It wouldn't benefit me."

However, if an events center is to be built, he said he'd prefer it downtown.

"It should be downtown," Reker said. "We should try to revitalize our downtown and make it more active than it is."

Filling in the details

Linda Barker, co-chairwoman of the Public Facilities Task Force, said people will be able to visualize the downtown location better after the the Zip Feed mill is down and the railroad tracks are removed.

"All the exciting possibilities have not been fully explained to the public," Barker said.

Eventually, computer drawings will help residents to have a better understanding of the size and scope of the facility, she said.

"It will help people to realize these are two equal sites," Barker said.

Munson said the city needs to have a conversation with the public to assess the preferred location if it's not downtown.

Barker said she is pleased with the initial poll results, considering that the public hasn't been educated about the events center.

"We really haven't gone to a full-scale educational process for the public," she said.

"When we get the finished product, we'll be able to present a final report."

The task force will give the mayor a formal recommendation on the events center by February.

"People that settle in Sioux Falls are looking for a quality of life," Barker said.

"This fits into a community progressive attitude that makes the city what it is."

Reach reporter Denise D. Tucker at 331-2335.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:46 pm

PistolPete wrote: Sahr said downtown would not be a good place because people from out of town might be afraid to drive there and would rather reach their destination just off the interstate.

"They don't want to drive in Sioux Falls," he said, and promoters want crowds from around the region.

Ooh. Don't go to big, bad DT Sioux Falls.

Wow. Now I've heard everything.

About the SF collage prescence... The concert I went to was at the collage and even when we went out to eat it seemed like lots of people had that colleges gear on (not sure of the name though). Having never been to SF before I figured that that school must be pretty popular.

Sodak · Post by **Sodak** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:21 am

Sioux Falls has two private colleges, Augustana and University of Sioux Falls that enroll about 3500 students combined and various other smaller colleges and technical schools. However, South Dakota State University, the University of South Dakota and Dakota State University are within 50 miles of Sioux Falls and a good chunk of those students shop and work in Sioux Falls. The combined enrollment of these universities is around 21,000 students.

As far as the location of the events center goes, Sioux Falls made a big mistake 10 years ago when a bond issue was passed to build the convention center adjacent to the old Sioux Falls arena north of downtown near the airport and to refurbish old Washington High School in downtown Sioux Falls into a performing arts center, imax and science museum.

It does make some sense to have the new events center near the convention center instead of splitting the locations up. Also, John Q Hammons built a Sheraton Hotel next to the convention center that would also serve a new events center well.

As far a Sioux Falls being backwards, there is no doubt that it is not Omaha or Des Moines, but the city has essentially doubled in size since 1970, when the city was only 72,000 people. The heighth of its development has been during the 80's and 90's, hardly a new urbanist period. Its sprawl is directly related to the opening of the Empire Mall in southwest Sioux Falls in 1975 and the subsequent location of every franchise restaurant and retailer in that area.

I love Omaha, but Sioux Falls isn't a bad place to live. It has a high quality of life and a low crime rate. Its a lot colder than Omaha, for sure.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't move back, now that I live here. But, its probably not fair to compare Sioux Falls to Omaha or Des Moines as far as downtowns go.

Kristi · Post by **Kristi** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:48 pm

My sister and brother inlaw live in Sioux City. He has a new vet clinic on Singing Hills Drive which is one of the first exits as you come into Sioux City. Then along came Dr. John's. Isn't he in jail? Souix City was less than thrilled about that one. My BIL is from there, that is how they ended up living there.

One thing I couldn't believe is how expensive houses are compared to Omaha. It is almost double what you would pay in Omaha. Why is that?

Singing Hills does have a nice little shopping mall. Nothing like what we have, but still nice. And the Cormac development looks to be an exciting addition to Sioux City.

My sister works at Gateway which is in Sioux Falls I believe. Other than Gateway letting go of employees, that is all I know about Sioux Falls.

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:57 pm

One thing I couldn't believe is how expensive houses are compared to Omaha. It is almost double what you would pay in Omaha. Why is that?

Volume... volume... volume.

Omaha has a very active... and competitive home construction market. The buyer wins.

I believe Lincoln's new homes are higher in price than Omaha's now as well.

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:47 pm

jhuston wrote: I believe Lincoln's new homes are higher in price than Omaha's now as well.

They have been for a long time. And its not just the new ones either. But you can blame the high price on new homes in Lincoln on lack of available land more than anything else.

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:27 pm

I'm confused. Lack of available land??? I didn't realize there was any place in the midwest lacking in available land for development. That is part of our problem.

projectman · Post by **projectman** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:53 am

Did Lincoln completely consume Lancaster county? Nowhere else to grow but up?

Sodak · Post by **Sodak** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:21 am

Lincoln does have a lack of developable land due to that fact that developers in Lincoln have traditionally not utilized Sanitary and Improvement Districts to help finance new subdivision public improvements outside the city limits. Generally, Lincoln taxpayers have been asked to pass bonds to extend sewers and other public utilities to new areas, essentially opening up the land for development.

In Omaha, developers utilize SIDS to publicly finance the public improvements (streets, sewers, etc.) by issuing bonds and assessing the lot owners. While the improvements generally must be approved by the City (if the SID is located within Omaha's 3-mile extraterritorial zoning jurisdiction) and meet its standards and specifications, the taxpayers of Omaha do not pay for the improvements, the residents of the SID do. Of course, we all pay when we have to widen streets due to increased traffic and to maintain the streets and other improvements when Omaha annexes the SID.

Lincoln recently passed developer impact fees which have been very unpopular. These fees were meant to pass on some of the public infrastructure costs to the developer, in lieu of the taxpayers. Because it is difficult to get bonds passed to pay for public improvements in growing areas, Lincoln has not opened up as much developable land as is needed.

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:08 pm

Thanks Sodak, you saved me a bunch of typing! I also believe that the planned growth in their Comprehensive Plan doesn't provide for enough expansion. This problem of land shortage will likely continue for a long time unless there is a major change in leadership and thought.

projectman · Post by **projectman** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:11 pm

That's interesting. I thought Lincoln used SIDs but I was wrong. It seems to be another stumbling block for Lincoln to grow into the next tier of cities.