Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Trains, Planes, and Automobiles (and Streetcars!).

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Dundeemaha
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Post by Dundeemaha »

S33 wrote:AA? What kind of junkies we got heading these studies?
Keep these up and you're a shoe in for this group: http://screen.yahoo.com/sketchy/origina ... 00640.html

:lol:
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S33
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Post by S33 »

Dundeemaha wrote:
S33 wrote:AA? What kind of junkies we got heading these studies?
Keep these up and you're a shoe in for this group: http://screen.yahoo.com/sketchy/origina ... 00640.html

:lol:
looks good to me! I will stop at nothing to embarrass my children.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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[BBvideo 560,340][/BBvideo]
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by drsunu1994 »

It would be nice to see plans becoming official for transportation here real soon. Because the tremendous amount of development happening in Omaha, needs a public transportation back-up. I for one, would love to use a street car to go from Capitol District to Midtown Crossing, I think that is a swell idea and should be rushed process especially because the study for it has already been conducted and proves that the city can use a more efficient and agile public transportation. Then again, I'm also open to the idea of creating larger roads to 84th & Dodge, to clear traffic.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by guitarguy »

There is a ton of topics on this in older posts.. I think just going from Capital to MTC would allow people going to a Creighton game the ability to park at MTC and be able to walk the last little bit to the Clink. I doubt you see Dodge widening anytime soon.. would put even more stress on the expressway and would lead to crazy congestion further west. Also I don't know how much wider it can get?
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by drsunu1994 »

guitarguy wrote:There is a ton of topics on this in older posts.. I think just going from Capital to MTC would allow people going to a Creighton game the ability to park at MTC and be able to walk the last little bit to the Clink. I doubt you see Dodge widening anytime soon.. would put even more stress on the expressway and would lead to crazy congestion further west. Also I don't know how much wider it can get?
Yeah. I just feel that once three or four of these large residential and mixed-use development projects are done, there is going to be one of two things:
A) either Omaha establishes an efficient transportation system for the dense urban downtown to outer streets
or
B) the city needs to develop a way to de-congest streets that will become congested with the heavy amount of population that plans on moving to urban Omaha.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by Busguy2010 »

I don't think there's any other option than transit for Omaha's future. It's clear that east Omaha is vital to the health of Omaha in the future, and with the neighborhood layout of east Omaha, we have to adapt and implement effective transit routes, or die as a city.
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S33
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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drsunu1994 wrote:It would be nice to see plans becoming official for transportation here real soon. Because the tremendous amount of development happening in Omaha, needs a public transportation back-up. I for one, would love to use a street car to go from Capitol District to Midtown Crossing, I think that is a swell idea and should be rushed process especially because the study for it has already been conducted and proves that the city can use a more efficient and agile public transportation. Then again, I'm also open to the idea of creating larger roads to 84th & Dodge, to clear traffic.
Not sure what you are using as a comparison or basis for your statement, but there hasn't been a "tremendous" amount of development in Omaha for at least 7 years. I don't think there is much of a hurry for much else than improving our lousy bus system.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by GetUrban »

S33 wrote:
drsunu1994 wrote:It would be nice to see plans becoming official for transportation here real soon. Because the tremendous amount of development happening in Omaha, needs a public transportation back-up. I for one, would love to use a street car to go from Capitol District to Midtown Crossing, I think that is a swell idea and should be rushed process especially because the study for it has already been conducted and proves that the city can use a more efficient and agile public transportation. Then again, I'm also open to the idea of creating larger roads to 84th & Dodge, to clear traffic.
Not sure what you are using as a comparison or basis for your statement, but there hasn't been a "tremendous" amount of development in Omaha for at least 7 years. I don't think there is much of a hurry for much else than improving our lousy bus system.
I'm all for improving mass transit and possibly adding new types, but I have to agree with S33 that the amount of development in Omaha has not exactly been "tremendous". Plus, drsunu1994, I don't think "creating larger roads to 84th & Dodge, to clear traffic." is a good idea. Would you seriously propose widening Dodge from downtown to 84th? That idea will never fly....especially east of Happy Hollow. Don't even try.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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S33 wrote:
drsunu1994 wrote:It would be nice to see plans becoming official for transportation here real soon. Because the tremendous amount of development happening in Omaha, needs a public transportation back-up. I for one, would love to use a street car to go from Capitol District to Midtown Crossing, I think that is a swell idea and should be rushed process especially because the study for it has already been conducted and proves that the city can use a more efficient and agile public transportation. Then again, I'm also open to the idea of creating larger roads to 84th & Dodge, to clear traffic.
Not sure what you are using as a comparison or basis for your statement, but there hasn't been a "tremendous" amount of development in Omaha for at least 7 years. I don't think there is much of a hurry for much else than improving our lousy bus system.
This is what puts salt into my urban planning wound. They always propose some pipe dream that is too expensive for private money and therefore will need a "public-private partnership" which always reads "the public gets the bill and the private gets the profit". When you oppose it, you are a Luddite, or (heaven for-fend,) an "anti-progressive".

There is never just a "ground-truth only" discussion about the real problems. Want to get us to support your pipe dreams? Get us a bus service that works. For Pete's sake, I live in the middle of the city and there are no bus routes within 2 miles of my house. Want to get people to use mass transit? Make a system that works at a price that we can afford without fancy names for sticking your fingers in other people's pockets to fund your fantasy of a grand urban worker's paradise vision of tomorrow.

Fix the bus routes and people will use them. Fix them so that it may take me an hour to get from 120th and Pacific to 42nd and Leavenworth, but not longer (afterall, that is 4 times the time it takes me to go there now by car, want me to shift, got to make it at least somewhat close.) Fix them in a way that makes ALL of the city feel that they are being included in the plan (and not just the cool kid clubs in downtown and Dundee.)
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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bigredmed wrote:This is what puts salt into my urban planning wound.  They always propose some pipe dream that is too expensive for private money and therefore will need a "public-private partnership" which always reads "the public gets the bill and the private gets the profit".   When you oppose it, you are a Luddite, or (heaven for-fend,) an "anti-progressive".  

There is never just a "ground-truth only" discussion about the real problems.  Want to get us to support your pipe dreams? Get us a bus service that works.  For Pete's sake, I live in the middle of the city and there are no bus routes within 2 miles of my house.  Want to get people to use mass transit?  Make a system that works at a price that we can afford without fancy names for sticking your fingers in other people's pockets to fund your fantasy of a grand urban worker's paradise vision of tomorrow.  

Fix the bus routes and people will use them.  Fix them so that it may take me an hour to get from 120th and Pacific to 42nd and Leavenworth, but not longer (afterall, that is 4 times the time it takes me to go there now by car, want me to shift, got to make it at least somewhat close.)   Fix them in a way that makes ALL of the city feel that they are being included in the plan (and not just the cool kid clubs in downtown and Dundee.)
Erg, this post really frustrates me.

You do live in the middle of the city geographically, but the truth is that the middle of the city is suburban. It is very inefficient at this point in time for the bus to serve the suburbs. Compare any given mile of east Omaha to 3 miles in the suburbs and you will find the bus will pick up about 3 times as many people in one mile than it would in 3 miles in the suburbs. That all has to do with the density of housing.

It would cost the taxpayers out there more for a bus to serve then than it would to not have service at all. And that's just the way it is going to stay unless theres a drastic change.

The main point of them considering a streetcar or BRT is that it will increase the density of housing, and thus will increase the density of transit. When you increase the density of both those factors in the dense part of the city, the demand for transit in other parts of the city rises. Not to mention, the bus becomes more attractive and less of a stigma. Eventually those 3 miles in the suburbs will pick up as many people as in east Omaha today. For the people who are frustrated by not having service, its all a matter of understanding this.

Tomorrow won't be different unless there is a break in the way things are done today. Nothings going to change unless we make a substantial investment toward changing the way we do things right now, because obviously its not working. Right?
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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Street cars and BRT that are paid by taxes in my neighborhood, but destined to work against the long term value of my neighborhood. So, we get to pay for our screw job? This is a real problem for Omaha and cities like it. The bulk of the city gets to pay for the privileged few who can afford to live in Midtown Crossing, or one of the massively expensive places downtown.

If you want to take out a line of credit and pay for streetcars on your nickel, fine. Have at it. The last time we had them, they were run by a private company. Leave my taxes alone if my neighborhood doesn't get to participate.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by S33 »

You can toss me into the "build a successful and efficient bus system before you build anything else" crowd. But I do think the city should take this more seriously, or show more urgency. And by seriously, use comparable cities across the world as a basis for proof-of-concept, instead of paying for more grass-root studies.

Fact is, a little bit of trouble in the Suez Canal, Omaha is shutdown.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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bigredmed wrote:Street cars and BRT that are paid by taxes in my neighborhood, but destined to work against the long term value of my neighborhood.  So, we get to pay for our screw job?  This is a real problem for Omaha and cities like it.  The bulk of the city gets to pay for the privileged few who can afford to live in Midtown Crossing, or one of the massively expensive places downtown.  

If you want to take out a line of credit and pay for streetcars on your nickel, fine.  Have at it.  The last time we had them, they were run by a private company.  Leave my taxes alone if my neighborhood doesn't get to participate.
What about all of the highways that Eastern Omaha has had to pay for that you benefit from but they don't? Part of living in a society is accepting the fact that sometimes you pay for things you may not directly benefit from, but rather benefit the big picture.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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bigredmed wrote:Street cars and BRT that are paid by taxes in my neighborhood, but destined to work against the long term value of my neighborhood.  So, we get to pay for our screw job?  This is a real problem for Omaha and cities like it.  The bulk of the city gets to pay for the privileged few who can afford to live in Midtown Crossing, or one of the massively expensive places downtown.
Switch out just a couple of words and you probably have the exact thoughts of someone who lived in North Omaha, South Omaha, Downtown or Midtown in the post WWII era; except in regard to roads and highways... In some cases even today for that matter.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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Roads and sewers are part of a system like libraries and parks. One set of roads may be used more by one set of citizens, but that can be said of all the city. Parks were often paid for by the developments and then taken over by the city. Same with roads. This is a thing that will only benefit a few people ever and these people will want everyone to pay for it. Simply tired of this kind of urban planning. Pool your money, find some angel investors, and buy yourself a BRT. Leave the 97% of us who will never benefit alone.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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bigredmed wrote:Roads and sewers are part of a system like libraries and parks.  One set of roads may be used more by one set of citizens, but that can be said of all the city.  Parks were often paid for by the developments and then taken over by the city.  Same with roads.   This is a thing that will only benefit a few people ever and these people will want everyone to pay for it.  Simply tired of this kind of urban planning.  Pool your money, find some angel investors, and buy yourself a BRT.  Leave the 97% of us who will never benefit alone.
You are trying to separate transit from the rest of the transportation infrastructure of a successful city and thats erroneous. Its a part of a system just like the libraries. Doing nothing will result in a lesser Omaha than can be possible, and likely worse traffic than we need to accept. Truth is, if we take a small portion of other funding methods, and utilize development districts to pay off bonds, it can be done. Nobody will have to get into your pocket any more than they already are.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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Oh, how I miss the days of us arguing about transportation
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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bigredmed wrote:This is a thing that will only benefit a few people ever and these people will want everyone to pay for it.  Simply tired of this kind of urban planning.  Pool your money, find some angel investors, and buy yourself a BRT.  Leave the 97% of us who will never benefit alone.
To be fair, that's how many city services work. The last time I utilized the services of the fire department was never, yet those who do use it still want me to help pay for it. I haven't checked a book out from the library for at least a decade, yet those who do use the library still want me to help pay for it. I don't utilize the local school system or community college in any capacity, yet those who do still want me to help pay for it. I think you get the idea.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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TitosBuritoBarn wrote:
bigredmed wrote:This is a thing that will only benefit a few people ever and these people will want everyone to pay for it.  Simply tired of this kind of urban planning.  Pool your money, find some angel investors, and buy yourself a BRT.  Leave the 97% of us who will never benefit alone.
To be fair, that's how many city services work. The last time I utilized the services of the fire department was never, yet those who do use it still want me to help pay for it. I haven't checked a book out from the library for at least a decade, yet those who do use the library still want me to help pay for it. I don't utilize the local school system or community college in any capacity, yet those who do still want me to help pay for it. I think you get the idea.
No, you are not understanding.

The examples you cite are intentionally not used (fire and rescue) as God-willing, we will never need them. We pool our resources to insure against that time when we might.
Or are examples where by design the whole city can, but some choose not to participate. You may never use the library. Your choice, but you COULD.

The example of the confined permanent structure that only goes from one "Cool Kid Club" to another, but yet requires everyone to pay, is BY DESIGN, exclusive. It's not that I don't want to use mass transit, its that I will never get the chance to even make the choice. It would be like a saying that we will build a library, but by law forbid you from using it. You will however, get to pay for the entire reference section, and I get to pick out the references that you get to pay for. Oh, and when you complain about it, I get to call you names for doing so.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by S33 »

I'm not seeing the difference...

A city should be expected to make its best effort to provide a transportation infrastructure that is accessible to each and every resident of the city, unless the private market beats them to it. (which clearly is not going to happen in Omaha)

Transportation is only one fundamental responsibility of a municipality, along with other things such as police and fire, public education and libraries, niceties such as public parks and landmarks with expendable revenues, and etc.

Light rail/streetcar, whatever it may be, is not simply a pet project to carry a bunch of uncouth, drunken college retards from Midtown Crossing to the Old Market, however, it should be designed to allow lower-income individuals and those who CHOOSE to forgo purchasing a vehicle, an alternative option to navigate other parts of the city, not to replace the bus system, but to augment what we already have.

It's not about who uses the rail, or who doesn't use it but is paying for it, it's about a collective effort to keep the entire city moving without gridlock. If that means multiple modes of transportation, then pony up the dough and make it happen, because, and I would bet money these high-priced studies would prove me right, a grid-locked city is a heck of a lot more expensive than investment in alternative forms of transportation and the development it creates along the way.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by S33 »

And that wasn't me arguing that Omaha should build a rail system, I'm simply arguing the general concept of it. I've got no idea what Omaha needs besides fewer women commuters who text while driving. so that might be an argument for rail...
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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bigredmed wrote: The example of the confined permanent structure that only goes from one "Cool Kid Club" to another, but yet requires everyone to pay, is BY DESIGN, exclusive.  It's not that I don't want to use mass transit, its that I will never get the chance to even make the choice.   It would be like a saying that we will build a library, but by law forbid you from using it.  You will however, get to pay for the entire reference section, and I get to pick out the references that you get to pay for.  Oh, and when you complain about it, I get to call you names for doing so.
Do you use the Florence library? What about the downtown one? Or what about the public schools in your district that your kids didn't attend? Do you pay for those too?

Comparing a rail line that doesn't run by your house to you being forbidden by law to use it is not true. There are plenty of situations you could make use of it. You could park at MTC for free and ride to countless destinations downtown, or the the CWS without having to worry about paying for the parking. You'll also benefit from the jobs that this could create, from the cars it takes off the road, and from the entertainment destinations it could create. No one is going to prevent you from using it or the things it creates.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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Garrett wrote:
bigredmed wrote: The example of the confined permanent structure that only goes from one "Cool Kid Club" to another, but yet requires everyone to pay, is BY DESIGN, exclusive.  It's not that I don't want to use mass transit, its that I will never get the chance to even make the choice.   It would be like a saying that we will build a library, but by law forbid you from using it.  You will however, get to pay for the entire reference section, and I get to pick out the references that you get to pay for.  Oh, and when you complain about it, I get to call you names for doing so.
Do you use the Florence library? What about the downtown one? Or what about the public schools in your district that your kids didn't attend? Do you pay for those too?

Comparing a rail line that doesn't run by your house to you being forbidden by law to use it is not true. There are plenty of situations you could make use of it. You could park at MTC for free and ride to countless destinations downtown, or the the CWS without having to worry about paying for the parking. You'll also benefit from the jobs that this could create, from the cars it takes off the road, and from the entertainment destinations it could create. No one is going to prevent you from using it or the things it creates.
1. I don't use the Florence Library, but I could if I wanted to. The people in Florence don't use the library in my part of the city, but they could if they wanted to. Building something that goes from the MTC to some discrete point in downtown benefits only those two areas. When you deal with a city wide system (schools, etc), you will always have one element that you will use more than others. But everyone gets to participate in the overall system. This is not the case here.

2. While there will be no legal prohibition for other Omahan's to use it, it will be pretty useless and therefore not be used. Parking will not be free. Currently, you only get 3 hours of free parking at MTC to shop, eat, or see a movie. This will stop cold if the people who live there and the businesses who lease there can't find parking due to the people going downtown. I could just as easily drive the extra three miles to park downtown. Which is what appears to happen in most cities (like Jacksonville, Florida) who have these things. They are seen as novelties. Once no longer novel, they fade in use like our bus system.

3. The economic impact argument is thrown out like an old sock every time we get a group that wants the tax payers to bend over again. I don't think I have seen any personal income gain due to the TD Ameritrade park, MECA, or frankly any of them. When do I get my check? How will a glorified shuttle bus between two "Cool Kid Clubs" really help the city economically? Just show me the numbers of new dollars that enter the economy and then make their way back to me. Cause I am a profit motivated guy. Investments have to earn their keep, and we are always told that this (fill in the blank project) isn't ripping off the taxpayers for some new toy, this one is an investment! I am all in if I can get some taste of the income. I am sure that Buffett would be too. Why aren't the billionaires building one of these? Why doesn't Mutual pony up? Could it be that their bean counters know something we don't about these? Could it be that they would rather get people like you to be useful idiots in an effort to leverage the city into paying for it? Not to be a cynic, but really, if this was a good investment, why is the private sector not all over this?
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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To manage and govern a town/city was never intended to be profitable. It's about creating a livable environment for its people, so they can prosper and profit through private enterprise.

It's not socialism to depend on the government for certain things, it's socialism to be incapable of living without the government.

But since you brought it up, Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo, all of them have some very successful, privately-owned rail transit systems, some of the largest in the world.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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You know, you can |expletive| and whine about taxpayer funded things all you want, but that is part of a society that you choose to live in. It's about improving the quality of life for everyone and not making a profit. Just because you don't like a certain project and think you'll never benefit from it is not a reason not to do it. You're not the only one that lives in this city. There's some things my tax dollars pay for that I will never use and some I will. But regardless, someone will or else studies wouldn't show the need for these type of things. How many people said the W Dodge Expressway wasn't needed and wasn't going to be used (remember how they said people would still just take the lower section anyways)? Well the proof is now there showing that they were wrong. This particularly is not something I will benefit from in the near future, but is something I look forward to having the option of and would certainly influence my decision about where I should move next. We've talked about the problem with urban sprawl many times in the past on this site. Well one way to help slow that trend down is good mass transportation that will in turn help build density. Yet again, this is not solely about economic impact, but is about making Omaha a more livable city. Just like bike paths/trails that people love to whine about because they don't see the need for them. Also, what about all the streets way out west? I don't need them, so why did they even pave them?

People who think about profits above the needs of others are simply selfish. No ifs, ands or buts. Despite what many people think, this world isn't just about money and how you can benefit.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by bigredmed »

If we keep letting little groups of people force everyone to pay for things that are de facto unusable by the majority, we will run out of bonding authority and be like large cities elsewhere that are like sewers because there is no money to pay for simple repairs. Thanks for this great debate, but I am not going to support this.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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“Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.” - Oscar Wilde
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by Slbg91 »

One thing that is not being addressed with the street rail prospect is that even if you never use it, you still benefit. The growth along such a line will attract more tourists and make getting around Omaha easier for out of towners. People feel more confident using a streetcar than a bus simply because they know EXACTLY where it is going, it is a finite route. When the city can sell conventions and meetings on ease of getting around to popular destinations, that means more money coming from the pockets of out of towers, this in turn lessens everyone's tax burden. For example, look at states that don't have an income tax. They draw in money from outside the state with tourism and corporate spending that allows for the locals to pay less. Omaha is in transition from being out of the way to becoming a destination. Mass transit is coming sooner or later and I would argue that the sooner it gets here, the faster this city will become a major destination and we will all benefit financially for that. :clap:
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by Coyote »

Thanks for your input, and welcome Slbg91 !
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

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Slbg91 wrote:Mass transit is coming sooner or later and I would argue that the sooner it gets here, the faster this city will become a major destination and we will all benefit financially for that. :clap:
That's exactly the way I've always felt. It doesn't make sense to delay the benefits of something that is inevitable.
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by iamjacobm »

The released their final preferred transit alternative. BRT from 10th to Westroads in union with Streetcar from 12th and Fahey, to 10th and Harney and out to 42nd street.

http://omahaalternativesanalysis.org/do ... 041814.pdf

http://omahaalternativesanalysis.org/next-steps/
Next Steps
Metro Transit and the City of Omaha conclude the Central Omaha Transit Alternatives Analysis study with the announcement of the Preferred Transit Alternative, a combination of a bus rapid transit (BRT) and urban circulator (modern streetcar) to serve the central Omaha area. The Preferred Transit Alternative will move forward to Phase 2, where route alignments will be further evaluated for environmental impacts, completion of the conceptual engineering and development of a full finance plan.
Estimated that to implement this project it would cost $170 million for the 7.98 BRT and 3.22 mile streetcar lines. Also mentioned that we are applying for a $33 milling TIGER grant.
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drsunu1994
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by drsunu1994 »

HOORAY!!! STREETCARS
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RNcyanide
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by RNcyanide »

:thumb:
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Coyote
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by Coyote »

So, the question us, how long before the City Council appoints a committee to evaluate this study and make recommendations on how to implement certain phases of said study?
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iamjacobm
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by iamjacobm »

Yeah the fire step of many. The information is out there now and we know exactly what we would get if we decided to pursue mass transit improvements. That TIGER grant would be a huge step in the right direction.
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S33
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by S33 »

Everyone calm down. Let's push for a study to study the validity of that study, then we can better decide if more studies are needed.
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S33
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by S33 »

In all seriousness, this is a really good start. I'd still like to see a line from the Airport straight south to the Zoo, but this is a start.
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sincitybaby
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by sincitybaby »

I like the concept as it will provide excellent connectivity to the city. Once Metro implements a few north-south express routes, this could greatly benefit commuters. As you could park and ride or drive into the center of the city. The Plan connects all major commercial areas of Downtown, Midtown, UNMC, Crossroads and Westroads with high speed commuter options. It also provides for Streetcars in the old part of Omaha, something that has been missing for fifty some years long. Hope this project gets going
bigredmed
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Re: Omaha Alternatives Analysis

Post by bigredmed »

So what are people who have committed the dasdardly deed of living west of the westroads going to get out of this? Tax bills? The soothing sensation that services in west Omaha are getting cut left and right, but we are going to drop $180M on east Omaha's new fancy busses and streetcars.

What are the people in north or south Omaha going to do for transport? What are the businesses on Vinton going to get from this?
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