DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Trains, Planes, and Automobiles (and Streetcars!).

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iamjacobm
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DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by iamjacobm »

Anyone interested in some light reading here is the summary version of the report:

http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/ ... aper_0.pdf

Here is the heavy duty report. 316 pages on the future of transportation in America.

http://www.dot.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/ ... mework.pdf
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by Turtle9160 »

Just saw an article about it online from the Washington Post, maybe its time to seriously look at the light rail and or beltway ideas again?
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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Turtle9160 wrote:Just saw an article about it online from the Washington Post, maybe its time to seriously look at the light rail and or beltway ideas again?
Yep, but let's make sure that the light rail starts in Lincoln with expansion capacity to the west toward Seward Co and to Beatrice, and to Blair with extension towards Mo Valley, and points north from Blair. Similarly in other directions.

The beltway should cross the Platte west of the mouth of the Elkhorn, and then cross the Elkhorn on Hwy 36, or at Nickerson in Wash Co. This way, we get a real loop around the city and can move cars efficiently around the urban core.

Frankly, we should start looking into the legalities of banning residential construction in the Elkhorn-Platte shared valley. The flood risk and the cost of evacuation make new construction problematic.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by GetUrban »

Here's an older Beltway study from 2009 I found from a search...

At first glance, the proposed Inner Beltway looks problematic being so close to the Elkhorn river. But the proposed Outer Beltway seems so far out there that you wonder how many people would really follow that route as a way to get into Omaha. It would need more spokes to actually help move traffic into the city.

If only Omaha Public Schools could improve upon people's perceptions of inadequacy. Then maybe people wouldn't be so dead set on locating families in other school districts. I think it's the boring cookie cutter form of sprawl I despise the most. If sprawl took the form of Traditional Neighborhood Development (TND) it wouldn't be so bad....Like the planned Leytham development with more commercial/office/multi-use mixed in. It would also be cool if we could see some new development with nodes like downtown Benson or Dundee included. Village Pointe was an attempt at that, but it's arguable how successful it was...since most people from the surrounding neighborhoods probably drive to get there.

2009 Beltway Study
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by Turtle9160 »

The 2009 study had me wondering about flood concerns in the Platte/Elkhorn valley, I would bet they made it out further in places due to how quick stuff is spreading out but I could be wrong.

This new report just makes the case even more that we need to look at a beltway/light rail/commuter rail system, and with the rail it could link out lying towns in the surrounding counties like bigred mentioned, that is how alot of the light rail and commuter rail systems are in much larger cities so it only makes sense
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by bigredmed »

OPS's problem is not perceptions of inadequacy, but actual inadequacy.

Frankly, we need to concentrate on getting kids ready for the adult world. We need to hire sufficient numbers of guidance counselors and separate psychosocial counselors. The kid who wants to be a tradesman has got to be just as important as the kid who wants to attend an Ivy. This is not the case. I could go on, but I will close with this: My greatest failure, when it comes to their education,was not getting my kids out of OPS.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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bigredmed wrote:OPS's problem is not perceptions of inadequacy, but actual inadequacy.

Frankly, we need to concentrate on getting kids ready for the adult world.  We need to hire sufficient numbers of guidance counselors and separate psychosocial counselors.  The kid who wants to be a tradesman has got to be just as important as the kid who wants to attend an Ivy.  This is not the case.  I could go on, but I will close with this:  My greatest failure, when it comes to their education,was not getting my kids out of OPS.
Perhaps there are too many people who think it's not really their problem, since their kids can just go to a school district more insulated or distant from such problems. I agree, the schools need to better help kids achieve their goals whatever they may be.

Sorry to veer off the "Transportation" topic, but where people choose to live is obviously a major factor effecting transportation needs.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by Seth »

bigredmed wrote:OPS's problem is not perceptions of inadequacy, but actual inadequacy.

Frankly, we need to concentrate on getting kids ready for the adult world.  We need to hire sufficient numbers of guidance counselors and separate psychosocial counselors.  The kid who wants to be a tradesman has got to be just as important as the kid who wants to attend an Ivy.  This is not the case.  I could go on, but I will close with this:  My greatest failure, when it comes to their education,was not getting my kids out of OPS.
Poor education and/or perception of it within Omaha is going to be, in my mind, the biggest impediment to a broad, diverse reinvestment and focus in established parts of the city. Without good schools that people recognize as good schools, it's very hard to attract young families, and difficult to keep residents after they have kids. That discourages a large swath of the population (middle-class families with school-age children). I know more than a few people who loved their places in otherwise good family neighborhoods in Midtown, but then moved out west only because they wanted to be in the Millard or Elkhorn school districts. Without good public schools, a large portion of the city will be limited to young professionals, empty nesters, and the few who either accept the current public schools, or can afford private schools.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by bigredmed »

Seth wrote:
bigredmed wrote:OPS's problem is not perceptions of inadequacy, but actual inadequacy.

Frankly, we need to concentrate on getting kids ready for the adult world.  We need to hire sufficient numbers of guidance counselors and separate psychosocial counselors.  The kid who wants to be a tradesman has got to be just as important as the kid who wants to attend an Ivy.  This is not the case.  I could go on, but I will close with this:  My greatest failure, when it comes to their education,was not getting my kids out of OPS.
Poor education and/or perception of it within Omaha is going to be, in my mind, the biggest impediment to a broad, diverse reinvestment and focus in established parts of the city.  Without good schools that people recognize as good schools, it's very hard to attract young families, and difficult to keep residents after they have kids.  That discourages a large swath of the population (middle-class families with school-age children).  I know more than a few people who loved their places in otherwise good family neighborhoods in Midtown, but then moved out west only because they wanted to be in the Millard or Elkhorn school districts.  Without good public schools, a large portion of the city will be limited to young professionals, empty nesters, and the few who either accept the current public schools, or can afford private schools.
Yep. The schools used to be OK, but OPS became autocratic in the 50's and 60's and schools were insulated from parents. Millard boomed due to new schools that were quality for neighborhoods designed for workers at factories and other blue collar and lower management people. I was in OPS till the 4th grade and at no point, did I get any help with left handed penmanship (but I did get bad grades) or artwork (but I did get bad grades). My brother got A's in reading, then moved to Millard where he was found to be nearly illiterate and had to have special ed to get back to reading at grade level (luckily this was in the 3rd grade, so he was able to fix the problem fast.)

My kids were at Burke (supposedly a good school). My youngest had academic problems in school and the counselor told my wife (too her face) that "it really isn't important that kids like your son graduate from high school." One of his friends was held back a year and supposed to graduate with him. Somehow, he didn't get the credit for a class he took recorded in time and they told his parents that, despite repeating a year, he wouldn't graduate. The morning of graduation, a random guidance counselor looked through the stack of non-grads' files and noted that he had the credits to graduate after all. The school called him and told him that if he could get to the cap and gown store and buy one, they would let him walk, but his diploma would not be there. Sorry, but the kid did the work and due to OPS clerical error, he got screwed out of graduation and his parents and he had a big fight (needlessly).

My son was nearly expelled in his sophomore year for doing homework in study hall. No joke. He had an assignment in his chemistry class to cut pictures of items made of a certain kind of plastic from ads in magazines the teacher gave him. She gave him a pair of scissors. He took them to study hall, checked in with the teacher, and explained the assignment. He was given permission to do it. He sat near a window that allowed him to be seen from the hallway. A third teacher reported him for having a weapon in school. Turns out there are two law firms that have made a nice business out of suing OPS (who knew?). They sued and we reported OPS to the enforcement office of the federal Department of Education in KC. Yes friends, if you need to squeeze the cajones of an OPS administrator, tell them you called the DOE. They will scoff that Washington doesn't take these calls, and then inform them that you didn't call DC, you called KC. Their lawyers couldn't have moved faster to erase this from his record and restore him to school.

There are simply too many stories of OPS failures going back generations. If Omaha is to restore the eastern half of the city to family life, we have to get real about OPS and then get real about gang and drug crime. Don't care about rich people villes all over east Omaha. Dundee is great if you are a millionaire. If you live in Dundee, but live east of 49th, its not nearly as cool as if you live west of 49th. We need to focus on the quality of life for regular people.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by GetUrban »

Well, it certainly sounds like you have good reason for your opinions about OPS. Luckily, my experience growing up in OPS was much more positive.

It was encouraging though, when you said "we have to get real about OPS and then get real about gang and drug crime" ....you used the word "We."

If more people would stick around in the district to help solve the problems, the situation would improve. I know it needs to improve very quickly if people are realistically going to be convinced to stay rather than switch districts.

From this recent OWH editorial there is hope...

http://www.omaha.com/opinion/world-hera ... 2d606.html
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by Garrett »

I certainly think the forced shakeups from the last few years have been encouraging.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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GetUrban wrote:
If more people would stick around in the district to help solve the problems, the situation would improve. I know it needs to improve very quickly if people are realistically going to be convinced to stay rather than switch districts.
If we are going to have realistic chances for durable urban infill, we need three things:
1. A no-nonsense approach to OPS. Meaning a focus on kids and their readiness for adulthood.
2. A coup in the urban planner set. Enough of the grand edifice, enough of the midtown crossings, give us housing for real people that include stable schools, safe parks, and a lifestyle that can compete with the burbs.
3. Absolute intolerance for criminality. Broken windows on steroids. If every blacktivist starts screaming civil rights, we will be doing about right. This situation in NE Omaha has to stop. Right now, a new family moves to Omaha, and looks at the news and writes off east Omaha. This has to stop. Not only will this not, but our current outflow of families from east to west Omaha will continue. Families with options will not tolerate life in an area where their kids can't play safely in their front yard.
4. Recycling open land inside the private sector. When a building closes, it needs to either get repurposed or replaced. UNMC can only expand so far. We had industry in east Omaha and it made sense to live there to have convenient commutes. There are now people who never go east of 132nd because they don't have to. We need people who never go west of Benson because they don't have to.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by iamjacobm »

This is obviously anecdotal, but on my street 3 young couples with children school aged have moved in to homes the past two years. They are all awesome neighbors and seem like exactly the kind of families that are doing what you are describing. We don't live on a sleepy side street either, one block north of Dodge on Davenport and we get a lot of traffic in front of our house. We all still have back yards, but the husband of the family next to my house rides his bike to work, the other family two down was on their front porch practically every day this summer. To be honest having those two so close to my house full of recent college grads really made us step up our game in terms of curb appeal and keeping everything in order. We weren't slobs before, but we do a lot better now.

I realize a lot more has to happen, but I bet there are stories like this all over the Aksarben area and the area around Leavenworth and Benson that were far more rare a decade ago.

As for transportation. Since sprawl is going to obviously continue that makes transportation even more of an issue. All kinds of transportation. I talked to someone that said the idea that Omaha traffic could be even remotely as bad as LA was a joke. I am not so sure about that, we don't have remotely the infrastructure on the way for the next 30 years to absorb even more of our continued growth rate. Our highway system is tiny compared to cities our size across the country, no rail transit(with none planned long term) and a bus service that covers half the city. Although I do think they do mostly a good job on that half.

Imagine a city that is completely built out to Springfield in the south and past Bennington in the north. Now picture all of those people getting onto either 204th, which should have been built as a limited access highway to be the western beltway, or onto 370, which should of been a limited access highway for the southern beltway. I-80 is basically at it's realistic width east of the 680 interchange. Even if they do widen it, that has been proven to lead to even more congestion.

Maybe by 2045 there is a streetcar, which does nothing to eliminate suburban traffic, but would help keep the core strong. With the way we dragged our feet on that project(10+ years of study after study) I can't imagine anything happening on rail to the suburbs in any shorter time span.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see commutes pushing an hour for a good chunk of the metro in 30 years without some major infrastructure investment. And widening 180th to 4 lanes is not what I mean as major.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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Fortunately, the ever shrinking percentage of families with kids will help. Unfortunately, the ever growing supply of better, newer housing on the fringe will not. OPS will definitely play a part in who chooses to live where going forward. Infill and redevelopment is going great but as long as there is a massive imbalanced incentive for building on the fringe, Omaha will be in a battle.

Back to the Interstate loop ideas - they are bad... all of them. very bad. One of the biggest helpers in driving attention back to a central city is when it gets ugly to get around in the burbs, or you can no longer conveniently get to work back in the core.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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The shrinking percentage of families with kids is not a good thing for any society.

Seriously, the need for social engineering focusing on quality of life for working,productive people is critical.

Urban planners love massive public structures, and tend to overlook the blue collar and lower level white collar people. Possibly a side effect of the tribalization of our society, but this has to change.

OPS has to paradigmatically change. It should focus on the mastery of skills necessary to be a productive member of society without 1 more day of school beyond the HS diploma. College and trade schools are great, but kicking the can down the road is fun, till you run out of road. Then you have kids who can't find jobs. We need the rebirth of Tech High. We need the rebirth of mandatory shop class in Jr. High. We need mastery approaches to fundamental skills in all levels. The kids who either are not smart enough to go to college, or who are not financially able to go need to be able to hit the ground running.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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Turtle9160 wrote:The 2009 study had me wondering about flood concerns in the Platte/Elkhorn valley, I would bet they made it out further in places due to how quick stuff is spreading out but I could be wrong.

This new report just makes the case even more that we need to look at a beltway/light rail/commuter rail system, and with the rail it could link out lying towns in the surrounding counties like bigred mentioned, that is how alot of the light rail and commuter rail systems are in much larger cities so it only makes sense
I tend to agree with opinion of some that big engineering projects like rail just benefits engineering and construction firms, and are not feasible without Federal funds. Street cars and light rail operate under the premise of transporting people from densely populated areas to urban work centers. That simply isn't the case with the Omaha metro area at the moment.

If Omaha could get a bus system that people in the suburbs felt comfortable using, that would be substantially cheaper to implement.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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jessep28 wrote:
Turtle9160 wrote:The 2009 study had me wondering about flood concerns in the Platte/Elkhorn valley, I would bet they made it out further in places due to how quick stuff is spreading out but I could be wrong.

This new report just makes the case even more that we need to look at a beltway/light rail/commuter rail system, and with the rail it could link out lying towns in the surrounding counties like bigred mentioned, that is how alot of the light rail and commuter rail systems are in much larger cities so it only makes sense
I tend to agree with opinion of some that big engineering projects like rail just benefits engineering and construction firms, and are not feasible without Federal funds. Street cars and light rail operate under the premise of transporting people from densely populated areas to urban work centers. That simply isn't the case with the Omaha metro area at the moment.

If Omaha could get a bus system that people in the suburbs felt comfortable using, that would be substantially cheaper to implement.
A spoke and wheel system of express buses and an interlocking system of looping penetrator buses for the neighborhoods would go a long way for not as much as the current streetcar system.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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I see a lot of outdated ideas and old perceptions of certain neighborhoods in Omaha. In my opinion the young people in Omaha are not only its future but also its salvation. Young entrepreneurs should be encouraged to start new businesses, so they can hire more workers and grow the economy. These folks will then invest in their communities and provide new tax inflows which will help to make OPS better. Also young people are much more interested in environmental sustainability by using public transportation. Hopefully over the long term if there is enough demand this will lead to more political courage to support things like a light rail or streetcar. You can't just say one thing in a community needs to change like the school district. Changing neighborhoods is complicated and takes an entire generation to accomplish. It's already happened in South Omaha and downtown, and it's happening in midtown and Benson.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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I agree that a quality bus system would be significantly cheaper than rail but realistically the longer a bus route the less competitive it is with cars. As the bus route goes longer out to the suburbs the land gets cheaper, the need for a car to access most essentials increases and the transit time becomes unacceptable to most commuters. A cohesive system pairing a light rail backbone with a quality bus system would address this but there isn't the political will for that. State funds could cover the expense of rail as well, our state spends hundreds of millions of dollars in road construction every year.

FY 2015 State Funds w/o Federal (source)
Highway: $228,000,000
Local Streets: $250,000,000

I don't understand the desire for a street car. They are not mass transit they are mainly for tourists with little use for average citizens.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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I like the idea of light rail. I feel that there's a stigma with the bus system in this city. I personally would love to take the bus to work if I could get it to work with when I need to be to work.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by mchine73 »

Here's an article from a few weeks ago. Good examples of well designed BRT stations. Looking at these vs. the MAXX down in KC it's like night and day. I made my first impression of BRT off the system in KC but if they funded anything remotely like these stations I think it would go along way in fightin the "bus" stereotype.

http://www.citylab.com/design/2015/01/7 ... ns/384773/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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I've been on the BRT in Bogota, Medellin, Mexico City, and Guadalajara. I agree with this article that the center lane is way better for BRT but it's also not something that is likely ever going to happen in Omaha. The reality of these center stations is that they greatly sacrifice car carrying capacity for bus efficiency. In a country where a large % of voters already take buses and can't afford cars that makes sense.

The majority of avenues these are implemented on were 6-8 lane roads before the conversion and now they have used 2-5 lanes for the BRT. The only roads in to downtown that have that kind of capacity are NW Radial -> Cuming, Dodge, Center -> Leavenworth, and 24th street.

24th Street is the most promising option in my opinion but it would require a 2 county agreement to reach its full potential and might encourage a net loss in tax base to Omaha if Bellevue became a more attractive area for housing growth than future annexation space in Douglas County.

With Dodge the only feasible way would be to drop the lanes to 10 ft from 12 if they are currently 12, which gives you the space to you need to play with for buses but not for the stations ideally at 72nd, UNO, 50th, 40th, Turner Blvd. But even then you're talking about dropping Dodge's carrying capacity during rush hour which is probably a non-starter.

In some parts they took a 4 lane street and turned it into 2 lanes for cars and 2 lanes for buses. That might work for downtown to midtown but there's not a lot of streets from Turner Blvd to 72nd street that really work for that.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by iamjacobm »

The plan for Omaha's BRT is to have a shared lane along Dodge from Westroads till around 42nd and Farnam. Plan from there is to have a transit only lane from there to downtown. Not sure if that is still the case considering the conversion of Farnam though.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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I just talked with Hal Daub. He said that the Streetcar line down Farnam to UNMC is almost a done deal, that it is further along than anybody knows right now.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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Coyote wrote:I just talked with Hal Daub. He said that the Streetcar line down Farnam to UNMC is almost a done deal, that it is further along than anybody knows right now.
Funding sources will be interesting here. I wonder if we can go back to the donor well after a decade with CLC, TDAP and Holland. Lots of names on plaques already. If it is already that far I don't see a special tax district in the cards at least.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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iamjacobm wrote:
Coyote wrote:I just talked with Hal Daub. He said that the Streetcar line down Farnam to UNMC is almost a done deal, that it is further along than anybody knows right now.
Funding sources will be interesting here.  I wonder if we can go back to the donor well after a decade with CLC, TDAP and Holland.  Lots of names on plaques already.  If it is already that far I don't see a special tax district in the cards at least.
The way he lit up after I asked him, it sounded like funding was already taken care of, but that is just my read.
By the way, Daub looked a lot older than the last time I met him, I mean he has aged to the point I almost didn't recognize him.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by iamjacobm »

The streetcar really probably could be Daub's legacy. The push really started during his tenure.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by GetUrban »

iamjacobm wrote:The streetcar really probably could be Daub's legacy. The push really started during his tenure.
I hope he gets to be the first rider!
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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Coyote wrote:I just talked with Hal Daub. He said that the Streetcar line down Farnam to UNMC is almost a done deal, that it is further along than anybody knows right now.
You're being sarcastic, right?
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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Seth wrote:
Coyote wrote:I just talked with Hal Daub. He said that the Streetcar line down Farnam to UNMC is almost a done deal, that it is further along than anybody knows right now.
You're being sarcastic, right?
No. Saw him at a Republican Fundraiser and talked to him as he was leaving.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by S33 »

A couple years back, I was lucky enough to be at a function where Daub was present, very casual, and basically everyone was just BS'ing back and fourth. I tried to listen whenever Daub spoke, and he would surprise a lot of people. He always came off as a sort of goon when he was in the mayors office, but if you get him away from the cameras, he is about as well spoken, genuine and intelligent as anyone I've ever met.

I was expecting Rick Perry, and I was way off.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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Daub has done more good for Omaha than almost anybody in the last 20 years. Always didn't understand why Fahey got a street named after him when it was Daub that got the ball rolling on everything downtown.
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

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I first met Daub when I drew the short straw and had to lobby him on Capital Hill back in '81. Even though I hated his conservative Reaganomics, he was well versed in the issue and easily held his own. But as mayor of Omaha I appreciated his stances on 85% of our issues. We had a forum meet (?) at Spaghetti Works years ago when he spoke on the Streetcar issue and he could articulate a vision like a pro. I would never vote for him for a US Senate seat, but I would go work for him if he ever pushed for progressive
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Re: DOT: Beyond Traffic Report

Post by Seth »

I'm just very surprised to hear there's any current momentum on the streetcar project. I had pretty much written off anything but meaningless studies for at least a decade.
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