Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[S33]

Again, i think the experts conducting the study will answer a lot of these questions for us. It must be somewhat viable seeing as how Omaha and the federal government have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars "studying" the idea of streetcar.

I just find it hard to believe that a corridor stretching from downtown to UNO, with a steady population density of 5-7 thousand people per square mile, and with varied household income ranges, add thousands of students and 3 universities, the largest concentration of jobs in the metro, can't support an initial phase of streetcar.

Mix in downtown as Omaha's primary entertainment destination, midtown crossing and the areas expanding density via multi-tenant development, and the upcoming construction of University Village... I'm not sure if you're out of touch with my demographic, but I know, without a doubt, that the majority of people my age would regularly use this thing. Heck, the universities may even bulk-purchase yearly passes for each student. (and we're only talking about local students)

I'm not saying people will give up their cars, but as this area is able to support everyone's needs for basic goods, shopping, dining and entertainment, cars become increasingly obsolete, in most cases.

[ShawJ]

Again, i think the experts conducting the study will answer a lot of these questions for us. It must be somewhat viable seeing as how Omaha and the federal government have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars "studying" the idea of streetcar.

I just find it hard to believe that a corridor stretching from downtown to UNO, with a steady population density of 5-7 thousand people per square mile, and with varied household income ranges, add thousands of students and 3 universities, the largest concentration of jobs in the metro, can't support an initial phase of streetcar.

Mix in downtown as Omaha's primary entertainment destination, midtown crossing and the areas expanding density via multi-tenant development, and the upcoming construction of University Village... I'm not sure if you're out of touch with my demographic, but I know, without a doubt, that the majority of people my age would regularly use this thing. Heck, the universities may even bulk-purchase yearly passes for each student. (and we're only talking about local students)

I'm not saying people will give up their cars, but as this area is able to support everyone's needs for basic goods, shopping, dining and entertainment, cars become increasingly obsolete, in most cases.

That's basically how I feel as well.

I think that this study will also look at what is best long term. Omaha might not be as congested as other large cities that utilize other forms of public transformation, but that might change. With all of the developments happening around downtown and midtown over the years, as well as increased population, traffic and congestion has increased. It appears that it's going to continue to increase as well. Will it be enough to warrant streetcars, light rail, or BRT? I have no idea, but I'm hopeful the study will tell us.

[Globochem]

You're definitely right about the density part.  Studies clearly show that communities that have 7 or fewer dwellings/acre are going to struggle to fill railcars.  Omaha, when it was crisscrossed with streetcar lines had an urban density of 9/acre.  It has since declined to between 5 and 6.  What rail proponents are arguing for is that the rail be built along corridors that are already at or around that density and that the infill that happens along rail lines will push the density higher.  

I believe that it is important that the streetcar be a useable urban transit alternative, no just a visitor showpiece.  I also, having seen MUNI in San Fransisco and the T in Boston, believe that streetcars are a perfectly useful, updated and pleasant rail option.  It is infinitely less expensive than light rail and helps to keep people where they belong, namely on the street.  I've also seen how streetcars use can be expanded to suburban rail in Portland or Baltimore.  

If the study recommends rail, I certainly hope that the city can move forward quickly to implement it.  Speculative rail lines do help encourage development, but when the lines are finalized, infill can happen rapidly.  

This is a FAR cry from bus transit.  Whereas BRT may help alleviate some congestion at peak hours, it will have zero impact on development and the accompanying density.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

You have an ignorant, knee-jerk response to almost everything I say. What has that got to do with how much OUR system is |expletive| up?

But since you went there, chew on this a little.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-g ... full.story

Oh and all of your statements aren't ignorant streets? Not only that, they are incredibly arrogant. All you do is complain nowadays. You used to have legit thoughts on some issues, but now all it is is "Ohh America sucks |expletive|... boo America.... you're a stupid |expletive| lazy American.... There should be more bikes in America... Why does anyone live here?" You have forgotten that this country is populated by people, not drones. And people take time to change. And in order for change to even start, there needs to be patience. Telling us how awful you think we all are is the least effective option. What happened to the old you Streets? You were one of the people who made me want to live downtown because of how excited and hopeful you were about Omaha and our future. But what you are doing now would turn lots of other people my age off to that idea.... its really concerning Streets. It really is.

My statements about the United States are precisely the opposite of ignorant, that is, I am choosing not to ignore the reality of what I see around me.

Nothing I say is a complaint. A complaint implies that you expect something to change. What I say is merely commentary on the American situation.

What happened to the old Streets? Well, I invite you to give up your car for a couple of years and then report back to me about how you feel about your fellow citizens, your country, and your government. Better yet, give up your car and move to Albany, New York (or any of the countless other cities like Albany) if you want to fully understand the pure he11 on earth we have made of our cities and our landscapes. I guess what happened to the old Streets is that he grew up and had the American fantasy wiped from his eyes.

In any case, you are right to be concerned.

[mrdwhsr]

Again, i think the experts conducting the study will answer a lot of these questions for us. It must be somewhat viable seeing as how Omaha and the federal government have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars "studying" the idea of streetcar.

I just find it hard to believe that a corridor stretching from downtown to UNO, with a steady population density of 5-7 thousand people per square mile, and with varied household income ranges, add thousands of students and 3 universities, the largest concentration of jobs in the metro, can't support an initial phase of streetcar.

Mix in downtown as Omaha's primary entertainment destination, midtown crossing and the areas expanding density via multi-tenant development, and the upcoming construction of University Village... I'm not sure if you're out of touch with my demographic, but I know, without a doubt, that the majority of people my age would regularly use this thing. Heck, the universities may even bulk-purchase yearly passes for each student. (and we're only talking about local students)

I'm not saying people will give up their cars, but as this area is able to support everyone's needs for basic goods, shopping, dining and entertainment, cars become increasingly obsolete, in most cases.

Oh no. We agree on something. Quick - let's find something to disagree about  :argue: (Just kidding). I look forward to the results of the study.

[mchine73]

[edit]

[Brad]

That's a nice looking house!

[Omababe]

Here's a link to a map I found.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38677544@N00/3050910020/

Uh, huh, that was quite a system they had back then.

Too bad the Powers That Be threw it in the dumpster!

[Brad]

I agree, people would be ecstatic if we had one loop, imagine having all this!

Florence, Benson, Dundde, Aksarben, Papillion/Ralston, Bellevue, Council Bluffs!

[S33]

Viable in 1944, yet not viable in 2012? I don't buy it. Something as comprehensive as that would have thousands of commuters every single day. That setup would actually give many area residents an excuse not to have all the expenses associated with owning a vehicle. A single line along Dodge probably wouldn't accomplish that so much.

[Brad]

Wonder how many of those lines are still buried in the street?  Two summers ago, part of 16th street caved in and the street car lines were still there.  Probably the only part of the street that didn't fall in the hole.

[S33]

I'll bet most all of it remains. You figure that most of these lines were disappearing in the mid-20th century, at about the same time tar, and later, asphalt roads were overlaying the brick - and probably the tracks while they were at it. (not that it would be reusable)

[ShawJ]

I remember seeing them around 54th and Leavenworth and 50th(ish) and Dodge a few years ago when the potholes got really bad.

[l-dude]

They were also exposed and removed on Farnum in Midtown and West Broadway in downtown C.B. recently when those roads were rebuilt.  I somewhat fondly remember as a kid having to avoid the abandoned tracks on 30th, Fort, and 24th streets in the Fort Omaha and Miller Park neighborhoods when riding my bike. They hadn't been covered yet in the mid 50's, but I don't remember any overhead cable.

[Seth]

And we're roughly three blocks from the trail system as my wife likes to ride her bike to work at the tower. However, she sometimes cheats and takes her bike on the bus and just rides home. (Wow, we sound like a bunch of hipster kooks!) Does anyone have any perspectives of our neighborhood?  (Definitely trying not to bait, just genuinely curious to what others think and the question of are we doing this right?)[/url]

I'm not very familiar with the area you live (we only moved to Omaha a year-and-a-half ago) , but we have pretty much the same philosophy  about the house we bought in the Ford Birthsite neighborhood.  It was solid old house that needed some work, but we bought it out of forclosure, and even after spending quite a bit on renovations, it's still appraised for more than we have in it.  The neighborhood is still a little sketchy at times, but not what I would call unsafe.  There is steady redevelopment (mostly thanks to Urban Village), so the long-term trend is promising.  Once the right external forces and incentives are in effect (although maybe just as often, the disincentives are removed), all it takes is people like us moving in to reach a critical mass.  Projects like a streetcar can be a huge driving force for urban redevelopment, but it isn't the only means of encouraging reinvestment in established areas.

I don't ever expect a streetcar within three blocks (the closest would be Harney for Farnam, which is about a 10-minute walk), but I bike to work every day at Kiewit Plaza and my wife and I often ride our tandem to Midtown Crossing, Old Market, Downtown, or North Downtown.  It's also nice being in the dense part of the city even when driving; the only time we really go west of 72nd is to Menards!

Of course, I can only fantasize about the streetcar network we once had (and the time when our neighborhood was one of the most exclusive new areas in Omaha, before the elegant Victorian mansions were cut up into slum apartments).  That map shows TWO lines within a block of our house!

[mchine73]

Thanks Brad, the previous owner's (a recalled mayor's son), did a great job of keeping the house fairly up to date, especially for having six kids grow up in it.

We looked at a house in Fieldclub, however the only one in our range didn't have a driveway or off street parking. Kind of  a deal killer.  

Having a system like that would be great.  If I had the skill/know how, I would like to see this map superimposed on a density map just to see what kind of coverage it would provide.  I would say even today, this map would probably be able to adequately serve roughly 25-30% of Omaha Citizens in some capacity. Nah, probably a little lower but that would have been a heck of a starter had it been maintained and not sold off to the likes of Goodyear.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Viable in 1944, yet not viable in 2012? I don't buy it.

Exactly. People seem to have such short memories, as if Omaha is only just now beginning to be enough of a "big city" to have some of these "big city amenities."

The reality is that we had many of the things we desire for our city presently, but we trashed them during the middle of the 20th Century.

[Bomaha]

That map looks so similar to the one I made on some scratch paper awhile ago. Granted I expanded it quite a bit. :-) I had no time on my hands and even created timetables, mileage, and dream ridership stats. :-) I will have to scan and upload it here. I think I had about 50 miles of streetcar lines. It contained a total of 10 lines that stretch to various parts of the city and as far west as 108th street.

[Busguy2010]

I'm pretty giddy about rail transit.  I'd especially love it to come to Omaha.  Maybe some of you have seen this, but here is what I'd like to see in Omaha some day, with the red, purple and aqua lines being the most viable.  Just to stimulate some day dreaming...

http://g.co/maps/rv643

[byrdrules]

That looks gorgeous to me...

[Brad]

They are installing a new Sewer in 60th Street between Leavenworth and Pacific.  When they started removing the street, the found the old streetcar lines...  SIXTIETH STREET!  Can you imagine if all the old lines were still in use!

[derog]

I'm pretty giddy about rail transit.  I'd especially love it to come to Omaha.  Maybe some of you have seen this, but here is what I'd like to see in Omaha some day, with the red, purple and aqua lines being the most viable.  Just to stimulate some day dreaming...

http://g.co/maps/rv643

I think there should be a line from the airport to downtown also.

The map you have would be great, but it would require a lot of infrastructure and $$$$. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be great, but I think we could look at Minneapolis as a realistic thing to look toward. http://www.visitingdc.com/airports/minn ... il-map.asp

In the case of MSP, it's a single line with extensive bus lines as well as bike rental stations throughout the town. It works great because if you're going to ride the light rail, you're going to walk (or bike) or ride the bus when you reach your destination(s).

For Omaha, a light rail could start at the airport in the east, run in toward downtown, go south on 10th street and then west on dodge all the way out to Elkhorn.

Just a thought.

[iamjacobm]

Cool timeline of the former streetcar lines from Omaha to CB.

http://journalstar.com/news/local/jim-m ... 7c75c.html

[Brad]

Who said Omaha doesn't have a streetcar line...

[davekcmo]

greetings from KC!

in searching for information about the omaha streetcar project, and the funded alternatives analysis, i found these sites:

http://omahaalternativesanalysis.org/
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Central- ... 8112873004
http://www.omahatalkstransit.com/

i called the herald reporter who wrote that story in january and he didn't have any information on the status of the AA. looks like it has officially started! anyone going to these meetings?

it's worth noting that the recently passed transportation bill (MAP-21) eliminated the AA requirement for New Starts projects.

[2Adam29]

Hope I'm not reviving the wrong thread here...

http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/decades ... l?mode=jqm

[daveoma]

Hopefully politicians and the people of Omaha will share the same vision for a city less sprawling and more vibrant than it is today. I know it's expensive but I still think it's better to build transportation projects that encourage dense development as opposed to building a freeway to a suburban neighborhood. This would really rake take to the next level.

[Midwestern]

Well that would be a good start at least. Would probably be smarter to wait for some federal funding even though it would delay it a few years.

It would be nice to have a north-south route added on. And Aksarben Village although I can't really think of a good way for the streetcar to get there.

[iamjacobm]

Well that would be a good start at least. Would probably be smarter to wait for some federal funding even though it would delay it a few years.

It would be nice to have a north-south route added on. And Aksarben Village although I can't really think of a good way for the streetcar to get there.

I've got a new ideal route. I will explain it when I get to my laptop.

[jessep28]

Why don't we spend the money on building a mass transit system which people in the suburbs will actually use?

[Professor Woland]

Why don't we spend the money on building a mass transit system which people in the suburbs will actually use?

We should have a big gathering outside of Warren Buffett's house with a candle light vigil, a drum circle and some acoustic folk music where we encourage him to throw his money at a subway system that connects the whole city.

[NEDodger]

I'll bite and be the contrarian (and probably take a lot of arrows for this in the process). I think streetcars would be a financial mistake for Omaha:

- the city, not even in this area, comes close to fully utilizing the bus system. I know the typical arguments - "the bus system sucks!" Well, then maybe our attention needs to be focused on that before we release Bus System 2.0.. I've rode on streetcars before - they're no different than buses and if people aren't riding buses, they won't be riding streetcars.

- I don't buy the argument that there will be increased, more dense development because of this line. No one is turning away from a profit-making enterprise because Omaha doesn't have a streetcar line along Dodge street. Although it's true that a public transportation line will assist in more dense development.....that already exists with the bus lines that are there, so it's not adding anything to the equation.

If we're hoping that a novelty of a streetcar system will sustain and turn people on to mass transit....man, that novelty feeling is short-lived. It will cut bus ridership while we have a 2/3 empty streetcar running between UNMC and downtown. BRT makes a LOT more sense for this city....

[MTO]

Yeah realistically I'm very sceptic all this will be used enough to make sense. As long as it's going to be kept as a critical part of the entire transistor system even through the slow periods. If so it will pay dividends as the city evolves around it but I just hope they never give up on it.

[jessep28]

In addition, most cities that build these expensive transportation projects don't budget to replace major system components when they wear out in 30 years. Also, I suspect that the $140 million projection is an extreme lowball number. If Omaha commits, I can see costs at least doubling.

In my opinion, the principal benefactors of streetcar systems are design and construction companies like HDR and Kiewit.

[iamjacobm]

Well that would be a good start at least. Would probably be smarter to wait for some federal funding even though it would delay it a few years.

It would be nice to have a north-south route added on. And Aksarben Village although I can't really think of a good way for the streetcar to get there.

My ideal Phase II for the streetcar. Includes the VA moving to the current Creighton hospital.

The line would cut south from Phase I at 40th and cut through UNMC campus, cross Leavenworth and run right near the Field Club Trail south to Center then it follows that to where ever you wanted to make the terminus. Maybe put a big station at the current Amato's site.

The biggest benefit would be to completely redevelop the VA property into a huge Mixed Use development with a concentration on medical companies office and housing for students and employees. Other benefits would be a huge shot in the arm to Center Mall, the odd industrial stretch along Center could be TOD the terminus at A/V would connect UNO and major employers to the core. It would even perhaps be close enough to the new CUMC to get a benefit there.

[GRANDPASMUCKER]

"In my opinion, the principal benefactors of streetcar systems are design and construction companies like HDR and Kiewit"


Exactly

[iamjacobm]

I'll bite and be the contrarian (and probably take a lot of arrows for this in the process). I think streetcars would be a financial mistake for Omaha:

- the city, not even in this area, comes close to fully utilizing the bus system. I know the typical arguments - "the bus system sucks!" Well, then maybe our attention needs to be focused on that before we release Bus System 2.0.. I've rode on streetcars before - they're no different than buses and if people aren't riding buses, they won't be riding streetcars.

- I don't buy the argument that there will be increased, more dense development because of this line. No one is turning away from a profit-making enterprise because Omaha doesn't have a streetcar line along Dodge street. Although it's true that a public transportation line will assist in more dense development.....that already exists with the bus lines that are there, so it's not adding anything to the equation.

If we're hoping that a novelty of a streetcar system will sustain and turn people on to mass transit....man, that novelty feeling is short-lived. It will cut bus ridership while we have a 2/3 empty streetcar running between UNMC and downtown. BRT makes a LOT more sense for this city....

Don't take these as arrows ! I think we need to be smart about it, but I think there are a number of benefits.

We have had a Bus System 2.0 for less than a month. We will see if Metro reaches their projections, but they are expecting to get to ~4.5 million rides a year or a 300K increase from the changes.

Sure no one is turning away from profitable projects now, but it has been proven in a number of cities that streetcars drive more projects, bigger projects and often projects that can devote more space to profit producing things like units and commercial space instead of parking when the line goes in. Just because projects are happening doesn't mean they can't happen faster and larger than we are seeing now, MTO can back me up here . It also has been shown that investing in a streetcar line produces greater private investment than a new bus line.

A novelty streetcar would have been one that ran from the ballpark to the zoo. This one connecting tens of thousands of jobs to tens of thousands of residents. This streetcar route also offers for a backbone to build off of rather than a trolly to move a handful of tourists.

We can continue to grow the city the way we have for 50 years and we can continue to watch our population age and innovative companies like MindMixer leave town, one streetcar doesn't change everything, but it is increasingly becoming important to the future generation. An investment like this would give us a chance to grow the core that will not be possible without it.

[iamjacobm]

In addition, most cities that build these expensive transportation projects don't budget to replace major system components when they wear out in 30 years. Also, I suspect that the $140 million projection is an extreme lowball number. If Omaha commits, I can see costs at least doubling.

In my opinion, the principal benefactors of streetcar systems are design and construction companies like HDR and Kiewit.

So like every road in the city?

[Professor Woland]

In addition, most cities that build these expensive transportation projects don't budget to replace major system components when they wear out in 30 years. Also, I suspect that the $140 million projection is an extreme lowball number. If Omaha commits, I can see costs at least doubling.

In my opinion, the principal benefactors of streetcar systems are design and construction companies like HDR and Kiewit.

So like every road in the city?

Fair enough. I don't necessarily think that a transit system has to turn a profit, but in order to justify the outlays for a streetcar system it needs to be used a lot. If we are going to fork over hundreds of millions of dollars for a streetcar system with cars that are rarely more than half full it doesn't seem to me to be as good an expenditure as repairing a road that sees regular traffic. If a streetcar system has enough riders then its expense is like any other infrastructure expense, but if it only carries a couple hundred people a day it's going to be a money hole.

[NEDodger]

I'll bite and be the contrarian (and probably take a lot of arrows for this in the process). I think streetcars would be a financial mistake for Omaha:

- the city, not even in this area, comes close to fully utilizing the bus system. I know the typical arguments - "the bus system sucks!" Well, then maybe our attention needs to be focused on that before we release Bus System 2.0.. I've rode on streetcars before - they're no different than buses and if people aren't riding buses, they won't be riding streetcars.

- I don't buy the argument that there will be increased, more dense development because of this line. No one is turning away from a profit-making enterprise because Omaha doesn't have a streetcar line along Dodge street. Although it's true that a public transportation line will assist in more dense development.....that already exists with the bus lines that are there, so it's not adding anything to the equation.

If we're hoping that a novelty of a streetcar system will sustain and turn people on to mass transit....man, that novelty feeling is short-lived. It will cut bus ridership while we have a 2/3 empty streetcar running between UNMC and downtown. BRT makes a LOT more sense for this city....

Sure no one is turning away from profitable projects now, but it has been proven in a number of cities that streetcars drive more projects, bigger projects and often projects that can devote more space to profit producing things like units and commercial space instead of parking when the line goes in. Just because projects are happening doesn't mean they can't happen faster and larger than we are seeing now, MTO can back me up here . It also has been shown that investing in a streetcar line produces greater private investment than a new bus line.

Two questions with this (I'm not doubting/disagreeing - just honest questions):

1.) Why would a streetcar line drive more and bigger projects? They are literally no different than a little nicer looking version of a bus. It doesn't move the volume of people like a subway/light rail and it runs along the same routes as a bus. What am I missing here?

2.) Where is it shown that investing in a streetcar line produces greater private investment than a bus line? There seems to be a caveat with this as it relates to Omaha - Omaha does not utilize its bus system, so it's not as if we have a bus system that is maxed out and this additional transportation mode is helping move a greater number of people (thus the incentive for more, denser development). To me, this is more akin to adding a very, very, very expensive bike line and trumpeting it as an impetus for grand growth and development? There won't be a big jump in usage of mass transit, because most of the streetcar usage would simply cannibalize from an already under-utilized bus system?