Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Trains, Planes, and Automobiles (and Streetcars!).

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Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Busguy2010 »

My question about autonomous vehicles is why?
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Dundeemaha
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Busguy2010 wrote:My question about autonomous vehicles is why?
Because driving sucks and is terribly dangerous.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Busguy2010 wrote:My question about autonomous vehicles is why?
They’ve been shown to be safer and will ultimately be cheaper if you don’t need to pay for driving labor.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Dundeemaha wrote:Because driving sucks and is terribly dangerous.
I enjoy driving.

I'm skeptical that autonomous vehicles will solve the safety issue.

I think this will happen :

People reluctantly accept AV's into the real world.
Car manufacturers are moving toward producing only AV's
They still get into accidents, people die in accidents that wouldn't have happened had they been in control
People question the safety of AV's and demand control
Government steps in and says you can't have control
We lose control

I'm young, and I guess I'm in a great minority of people that resists these changes.

I will drive my manual transmission 1994 Chevy, grow my garden, build my furniture, raise my chickens, shoot my guns, and cook my food for as long as I can! If I get left behind, then so be it, I'm human.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Linkin5 wrote:They’ve been shown to be safer and will ultimately be cheaper if you don’t need to pay for driving labor.
I feel terrible for competent, professional drivers. Just another subset of humans being made obsolete in the name of industry money.
Especially because that is the best thing some people know to do, and they do it exceptionally. Take that away and then what do they do? Probably something that doesn't pay nearly as much.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Busguy2010 wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:They’ve been shown to be safer and will ultimately be cheaper if you don’t need to pay for driving labor.
I feel terrible for competent, professional drivers. Just another subset of humans being made obsolete in the name of industry money.
Especially because that is the best thing some people know to do, and they do it exceptionally. Take that away and then what do they do? Probably something that doesn't pay nearly as much.
I’m sure there were also excellent horse carriage drivers, chimney sweeps, and telephone operators, unfortunately the world changes and people either adapt or they don’t.
Last edited by Linkin5 on Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Double post
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Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Linkin5 wrote:I’m sure there were also excellent horse carriage drivers, chimney sweeps, and telephone operators, unfortunately the world changes and people either adapt or they don’t.
Well this would be another drop in the bucket. We're moving away from being a society filled with skilled, useful people, to a society filled with people who don't really DO anything at all.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Busguy2010 wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:I’m sure there were also excellent horse carriage drivers, chimney sweeps, and telephone operators, unfortunately the world changes and people either adapt or they don’t.
Well this would be another drop in the bucket. We're moving away from being a society filled with skilled, useful people, to a society filled with people who don't really DO anything at all.
Very untrue, we are moving to a society where people do different tasks and are skilled in different areas, more of a tertiary society that has a large service based industry.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Busguy2010 wrote:My question about autonomous vehicles is why?
Is a Streetcar not an autonomous vehicle?

Level 5 autonomy for passenger vehicles will be on the Interstates in the next 2 years. For trucks it will save them 30% in fuel costs and you can fit more vehicles on the road as they will be driving closer and faster. When you are driving hundreds of thousands of miles a year that is a huge savings.

Right now I can drive hands free with my car for about 80% of my 17 mile drive to work. If Omaha and Papillion would do a better job of marking the streets it would be almost 90%. When I go to see my parents I only have to take control of the steering wheel a couple times over the 70 mile drive. This technology is coming and I would be for anything that helps it.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Linkin5 wrote:more of a tertiary society that has a large service based industry.
Well, I guess I don't find a lot of value in that. Service industry sucks and anybody can do it, thus why they never pay enough to live well off of. So you have a lot of skilled people doing jobs anybody can do, being paid what that market dictates. That goes full circle to my "degenerative" comment. The more unskilled jobs there are, the need for people to possess practical skills (for work or surviving in general) diminishes, thus reducing the quality of people.

So I think the streetcar will be beneficial to our microcosm in that it will engage people in a real activity, vs being isolated in an autonomic pod, doing whatever with your electronic device. Walking, engaging with other people, physical interaction with your environment. On top of the construction it will stimulate, it will slow everyone down, which is something our society needs right about now.

I'm seeing a philosophical benefit that people might not notice on the surface. I think it'll be great.
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Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Trips wrote:Is a Streetcar not an autonomous vehicle?
Streetcars have operators, as long as we keep it that way. Which reminds me of the D.C. metro accident.
Trips wrote:Right now I can drive hands free with my car for about 80% of my 17 mile drive to work. If Omaha and Papillion would do a better job of marking the streets it would be almost 90%. When I go to see my parents I only have to take control of the steering wheel a couple times over the 70 mile drive. This technology is coming and I would be for anything that helps it.
Honest question, what car do you drive, and what do you do with the time you spend not driving?
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Busguy2010 wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:more of a tertiary society that has a large service based industry.
Well, I guess I don't find a lot of value in that. Service industry sucks and anybody can do it, thus why they never pay enough to live well off of. So you have a lot of skilled people doing jobs anybody can do, being paid what that market dictates. That goes full circle to my "degenerative" comment. The more unskilled jobs there are, the need for people to possess practical skills (for work or surviving in general) diminishes, thus reducing the quality of people.

So I think the streetcar will be beneficial to our microcosm in that it will engage people in a real activity, vs being isolated in an autonomic pod, doing whatever with your electronic device. Walking, engaging with other people, physical interaction with your environment. On top of the construction it will stimulate, it will slow everyone down, which is something our society needs right about now.

I'm seeing a philosophical benefit that people might not notice on the surface. I think it'll be great.
Let’s just take a look at the situation. Semi trucks take up tons of resources and time and road space and autonomous vehicles are look at solving the safety and efficiency issues that they cause. Humans are always going to have errors because we’re human. We just can’t avoid the obvious advantage of lives saved by having a much safer driving situation.

Secondly advances in technology are always made. Over and over people claim apocalypse when anything is made automatic or aided by machines because supposedly all jobs in that area will disappear. If you look at this claim historicallly, it’s 100% inaccurate, and jobs are ALWAYS created when a big technological push like this is implemented.

It seems to me that your view on the situation is probably how your view is on a lot of things: if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. You can’t have a society with that mindset if you want a nation, city to be successful and competitive on the 21 century world stage. Technology is advancing at breakneck speeds and humanity is going to accomplish more than ever before due to this international competition. It’s the same concept that pushes capitalism to be such a successful economic model.

But if we really want to talk about making our transportation Efficient, this country should be investing heavily in high speed rail. There is not a single reason why there should be millions of slow, inefficient semis hauling our stuff across the country.
#gohawks
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Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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buildomaha wrote:Humans are always going to have errors because we’re human. We just can’t avoid the obvious advantage of lives saved by having a much safer driving situation.
I don't think it's going to be that peachy. Machines, cumputers, and robots fail all the time for the very same reason.

Also, I'd argue most accidents aren't true "accidents". The idiot behind the wheel is the cause of a collision. Unfortunately when you put an idiot in a car driving 70mph, it makes no exceptions as to who it takes out with it.

I'd also be hopeful to say most people aren't idiots. Hopefully. So I view it as a "cool" technology that is unnecessary. And since I earned the privilege to drive by being good at it, I'd like to be able to buy a drivable car in the future, should I need to. So long as I will still be able to drive in 20 or 30 years, it'll be okay. I can coexist with the technology, but I do not support it in any way.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by GrandpaaSmucker »

Trips wrote:]
Right now I can drive hands free with my car for about 80% of my 17 mile drive to work. .

What you are saying may be true but I find that hard to believe. It may not be impossible but I have not seen it yet in person or on TV.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by buildomaha »

Busguy2010 wrote:
buildomaha wrote:Humans are always going to have errors because we’re human. We just can’t avoid the obvious advantage of lives saved by having a much safer driving situation.
I don't think it's going to be that peachy. Machines, cumputers, and robots fail all the time for the very same reason.

Also, I'd argue most accidents aren't true "accidents". The idiot behind the wheel is the cause of a collision. Unfortunately when you put an idiot in a car driving 70mph, it makes no exceptions as to who it takes out with it.

I'd also be hopeful to say most people aren't idiots. Hopefully. So I view it as a "cool" technology that is unnecessary. And since I earned the privilege to drive by being good at it, I'd like to be able to buy a drivable car in the future, should I need to. So long as I will still be able to drive in 20 or 30 years, it'll be okay. I can coexist with the technology, but I do not support it in any way.
The accident and fatalit rate of automobiles are so high in this country because the qualifications of driving are almost nothing. Pass a simple driving test and your free to take you 2 ton vehicle that goes 100 mph and do what you want. If we could eliminate the human error, so many lives could be saved. Computers fail a lot less than someone driving on their phone, or picking up the sunglasses they dropped on the ground, or changing the music, or drunk. Although I hate the car centric society, people won’t be giving yp their cars, just getting safer more efficient ones. And there is zero factual argument that could be made other than “well I like driving myself”
#gohawks
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Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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buildomaha wrote:“well I like driving myself”
:shrug:
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by mistergutierrez »

Just for the record:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... death_rate
Back in my country, Spain, you must be 18 to get a driver's licence. You need to enroll in a driving school in order to prepare an official exam (theory and practice). Tuition fees and other taxes sum around $1000.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Busguy2010 wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:more of a tertiary society that has a large service based industry.
Well, I guess I don't find a lot of value in that. Service industry sucks and anybody can do it, thus why they never pay enough to live well off of. So you have a lot of skilled people doing jobs anybody can do, being paid what that market dictates. That goes full circle to my "degenerative" comment. The more unskilled jobs there are, the need for people to possess practical skills (for work or surviving in general) diminishes, thus reducing the quality of people.
I think this is something viewed from a largely American lens.

The service industry in Japan for example is amazing! And there is enormous value to the service industry that Americans tend to over look.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by iamjacobm »

Another article without much new info, but this comment seems relevant to the discussion.

http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/advocat ... faf6e.html
Lund said the advocacy group is waiting on the final cost "so we can figure out a financing mechanism." But he told the board that the streetcar “can and will happen without a citywide property tax increase, and the funding will be provided by the corridor.”
I imagine that means it will come to a vote for the people living w/in x amount of blocks of the line and avoid a citywide vote that is surely guaranteed to fail.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Which likely means, this study will be analyzed.. Then another study will be commissioned within the next 3-6 months to “study” that “study”..

And the cycle of Omaha streetcar BS continues...

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Omaha Cowboy wrote:
Which likely means, this study will be analyzed.. Then another study will be commissioned within the next 3-6 months to “study” that “study”..

And the cycle of Omaha streetcar BS continues...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
At least if they just keep studying it they can't tank Metro's budget by sticking them with operating/paying for the thing.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Omaha Cowboy wrote:Which likely means, this study will be analyzed.. Then another study will be commissioned within the next 3-6 months to “study” that “study”..

And the cycle of Omaha streetcar BS continues...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
I have a finite feeling about this one, Cowboy. This attempt has a real plan and goal in contrast to past attempts, or pipe dreams. This has been the best effort of them all, and this is also the fork in the road. If this streetcar plan doesn't make it, another one won't stand this good a chance again. And for that reason, I feel those in control won't allow it to fail.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Dundeemaha wrote:At least if they just keep studying it they can't tank Metro's budget by sticking them with operating/paying for the thing.
Wikipedia wrote:Portland Streetcars are operated and maintained by TriMet. But unlike MAX, the streetcar system is owned by the city of Portland and managed by Portland Streetcar Incorporated, a non-profit public benefit corporation whose board of directors report to the city's Bureau of Transportation.
Portland streetcar has some level of separation from Portland's "Metro",

I'm not sure exactly what difference an arrangement like that makes, but it won't necessarily be a part of Omaha Metro's budget. I highly doubt any plan would be accepted if it put Metro's current level of service in jeopardy, and I'm sure that's a huge consideration that we will learn more about when the report is made public.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Omaha Cowboy »

Dundeemaha wrote:
Omaha Cowboy wrote:
Which likely means, this study will be analyzed.. Then another study will be commissioned within the next 3-6 months to “study” that “study”..

And the cycle of Omaha streetcar BS continues...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
At least if they just keep studying it they can't tank Metro's budget by sticking them with operating/paying for the thing.
That’s true...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
Go Cowboys!
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Busguy2010 wrote:
Omaha Cowboy wrote:Which likely means, this study will be analyzed.. Then another study will be commissioned within the next 3-6 months to “study” that “study”..

And the cycle of Omaha streetcar BS continues...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
I have a finite feeling about this one, Cowboy. This attempt has a real plan and goal in contrast to past attempts, or pipe dreams. This has been the best effort of them all, and this is also the fork in the road. If this streetcar plan doesn't make it, another one won't stand this good a chance again. And for that reason, I feel those in control won't allow it to fail.
Well, I like your optimism and it may be very well founded this go around..

I’ve had my nose to this streetcar possibility for the past 15 or so years.. Even attended streetcar meetings/seminars going back as far as 2005.. Based on track record alone, I’ve grown VERY skeptical if this idea of streetcars for Omaha well ever, seriously, get off the ground..

Study after study.. after study after study..and the cycle continues..

Time will tell. But to steal a slogan intended for residents of the state of Missouri, they’re going to have to “Show Me”...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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No way are they going to let people have an honest vote on this. They are prepared to lie steal and cheat to get this in and they could care less if we want it or not. Looks like they are about to tell us that its going to pay for itself so they can build it if they want and they won't be needing our permission.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Love the idea of a street car system in Omaha!
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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:grr:
GrandpaaSmucker wrote:No way are they going to let people have an honest vote on this. They are prepared to lie steal and cheat to get this in and they could care less if we want it or not. Looks like they are about to tell us that its going to pay for itself so they can build it if they want and they won't be needing our permission.
Have to agree with you.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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I'm so happy this is finally becoming reality! Odd they're looking at 5 scattered maintenance facilities... At least it seems odd to have that many for this length of route. I'm glad to see they haven't yet decided to do the Farnam contraflow or Harney. I'm hoping for the Farnam contraflow. I'm also happy to see they plan to eventually extend to Creighton. That only makes sense.

Edit: Ah, there are 5 considerable locations with one eventually being decided on.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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Busguy2010 wrote:I'm so happy this is finally becoming reality! Odd they're looking at 5 scattered maintenance facilities... At least it seems odd to have that many for this length of route. I'm glad to see they haven't yet decided to do the Farnam contraflow or Harney. I'm hoping for the Farnam contraflow. I'm also happy to see they plan to eventually extend to Creighton. That only makes sense.

Edit: Ah, there are 5 considerable locations with one eventually being decided on.
I don’t know that the release of this latest “study” means streetcars will become a reality for Omaha..

This still has a LONG way to go and I still have healthy doubts...

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by choke »

Omaha Cowboy wrote:
Busguy2010 wrote:I'm so happy this is finally becoming reality! Odd they're looking at 5 scattered maintenance facilities... At least it seems odd to have that many for this length of route. I'm glad to see they haven't yet decided to do the Farnam contraflow or Harney. I'm hoping for the Farnam contraflow. I'm also happy to see they plan to eventually extend to Creighton. That only makes sense.

Edit: Ah, there are 5 considerable locations with one eventually being decided on.
I don’t know that the release of this latest “study” means streetcars will become a reality for Omaha..

This still has a LONG way to go and I still have healthy doubts...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
I used to be in the streetcar camp but I have my doubts. I'm not sure if it would be better to invest in making Omaha's bus system more robust and flexible. If Omaha built a streetcar years ago, we'd have a line going to a baseball stadium that no longer exists. On the other hand, it would be great for events like the CWS, Berkshire, etc. It would get traffic into the midtown area.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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choke wrote: I used to be in the streetcar camp but I have my doubts. I'm not sure if it would be better to invest in making Omaha's bus system more robust and flexible. If Omaha built a streetcar years ago, we'd have a line going to a baseball stadium that no longer exists. On the other hand, it would be great for events like the CWS, Berkshire, etc. It would get traffic into the midtown area.
I have to agree that I would rather see Omaha bus system built up to cover more of the metro. As Omaha has expanded, the bus system hasn’t. Sometimes I have this feeling that mass transit in Omaha is looked at as something to be used by people who can’t afford a car.

I have always wondered if they want that streetcar route why they didn’t extend it over to Cuming and have a station next to the new hotels.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by GrowUpFrances »

Uffda wrote:
choke wrote: I used to be in the streetcar camp but I have my doubts. I'm not sure if it would be better to invest in making Omaha's bus system more robust and flexible. If Omaha built a streetcar years ago, we'd have a line going to a baseball stadium that no longer exists. On the other hand, it would be great for events like the CWS, Berkshire, etc. It would get traffic into the midtown area.
I have to agree that I would rather see Omaha bus system built up to cover more of the metro. As Omaha has expanded, the bus system hasn’t. Sometimes I have this feeling that mass transit in Omaha is looked at as something to be used by people who can’t afford a car.

I have always wondered if they want that streetcar route why they didn’t extend it over to Cuming and have a station next to the new hotels.
I agree, I used to be in the streetcar camp, thinking if we just get something started, it could lay the groundwork for a more robust public transportation system for the city in the future. However, the proponents of this plan seem to lack a long-term vision. Or at least they're not communicating that vision well. Why doesn't it extend to Cuming? Could it go to the airport in the future? Or down 10th street to the zoo? Or near more neighborhoods at some point to increase weekly ridership? It's difficult to support the idea without seeing a long-term phased plan.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

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bigredmed1 wrote::grr:
GrandpaaSmucker wrote:No way are they going to let people have an honest vote on this. They are prepared to lie steal and cheat to get this in and they could care less if we want it or not. Looks like they are about to tell us that its going to pay for itself so they can build it if they want and they won't be needing our permission.
Have to agree with you.
When will you be mad and want votes on all road widening projects? Or yet again is it you just support projects you benefit from and screw all the people in this area that can benefit from this?

People need to realize that not all taxpayer projects will benefit them directly. But they are for the greater good of the overall community. If you can have 168th St widened then why can't people in the core get a project that benefits them? And why is it so hard for some people to get this point? The outer fringes of the city are not the only thing we should be focusing on. Let's try not being selfish and supporting only things that will benefit yourself.

There's so much complaining about anything that is not a road widening project for some stupid reason. While I personally like them (I'm a bit of an infrastructure nerd), I also see the need to do more than just that. The population density is much higher in this part of town and widening just wouldn't work. Plus you would have to tear down a lot of development to do so. And we can't just keep widening I-80.

One last thing to keep in mind - continuing to just support low density development (which is what you get when widening roads on the fringes) will only spread city services thinner and thinner and causing the cost of these things (taxes) to go up. Why not support efforts at making higher population densities to stop the sprawl?

Let's be smart about city planning.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by GetUrban »

The report does show some future expansion north to Creighton and west to 46th, but I agree they need to show more long-term expansion possibilities to sell it to a larger Omaha crowd. That would be great to eventually route it to other higher-density areas including UNO, Ak Village, Crossroads, Dundee, Benson, N 24th St, plus the Airport and Zoo too. If the costs are limited only to people and businesses who will initially benefit, and assuming they can secure some major donors, it has a chance to succeed. If they hold a city-wide vote it will probably fail, which might be Stothert's plan all along, to avoid upsetting her suburban base.

We should keep learning from Kansas City's successful streetcar implementation.

To be fair, if costs are limited only to those who benefit initially, the same model should apply to the people benefiting in future expansion areas.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by bigredmed1 »

HR Paperstacks wrote:
bigredmed1 wrote::grr:
GrandpaaSmucker wrote:No way are they going to let people have an honest vote on this. They are prepared to lie steal and cheat to get this in and they could care less if we want it or not. Looks like they are about to tell us that its going to pay for itself so they can build it if they want and they won't be needing our permission.
Have to agree with you.
When will you be mad and want votes on all road widening projects? Or yet again is it you just support projects you benefit from and screw all the people in this area that can benefit from this?

People need to realize that not all taxpayer projects will benefit them directly. But they are for the greater good of the overall community. If you can have 168th St widened then why can't people in the core get a project that benefits them? And why is it so hard for some people to get this point? The outer fringes of the city are not the only thing we should be focusing on. Let's try not being selfish and supporting only things that will benefit yourself.

There's so much complaining about anything that is not a road widening project for some stupid reason. While I personally like them (I'm a bit of an infrastructure nerd), I also see the need to do more than just that. The population density is much higher in this part of town and widening just wouldn't work. Plus you would have to tear down a lot of development to do so. And we can't just keep widening I-80.

One last thing to keep in mind - continuing to just support low density development (which is what you get when widening roads on the fringes) will only spread city services thinner and thinner and causing the cost of these things (taxes) to go up. Why not support efforts at making higher population densities to stop the sprawl?

Let's be smart about city planning.
Thinking hard about blocking you. Really tired of your assumptions.
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