Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Trains, Planes, and Automobiles (and Streetcars!).

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Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:06 pm

My question about autonomous vehicles is why?

Dundeemaha
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dundeemaha » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:54 pm

Busguy2010 wrote:My question about autonomous vehicles is why?


Because driving sucks and is terribly dangerous.

Linkin5
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Linkin5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:18 pm

Busguy2010 wrote:My question about autonomous vehicles is why?


They’ve been shown to be safer and will ultimately be cheaper if you don’t need to pay for driving labor.

Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:43 pm

Dundeemaha wrote:Because driving sucks and is terribly dangerous.


I enjoy driving.

I'm skeptical that autonomous vehicles will solve the safety issue.

I think this will happen :

People reluctantly accept AV's into the real world.
Car manufacturers are moving toward producing only AV's
They still get into accidents, people die in accidents that wouldn't have happened had they been in control
People question the safety of AV's and demand control
Government steps in and says you can't have control
We lose control

I'm young, and I guess I'm in a great minority of people that resists these changes.

I will drive my manual transmission 1994 Chevy, grow my garden, build my furniture, raise my chickens, shoot my guns, and cook my food for as long as I can! If I get left behind, then so be it, I'm human.

Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:47 pm

Linkin5 wrote:They’ve been shown to be safer and will ultimately be cheaper if you don’t need to pay for driving labor.


I feel terrible for competent, professional drivers. Just another subset of humans being made obsolete in the name of industry money.
Especially because that is the best thing some people know to do, and they do it exceptionally. Take that away and then what do they do? Probably something that doesn't pay nearly as much.

Linkin5
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Linkin5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:53 pm

Busguy2010 wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:They’ve been shown to be safer and will ultimately be cheaper if you don’t need to pay for driving labor.


I feel terrible for competent, professional drivers. Just another subset of humans being made obsolete in the name of industry money.
Especially because that is the best thing some people know to do, and they do it exceptionally. Take that away and then what do they do? Probably something that doesn't pay nearly as much.


I’m sure there were also excellent horse carriage drivers, chimney sweeps, and telephone operators, unfortunately the world changes and people either adapt or they don’t.
Last edited by Linkin5 on Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Linkin5
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Linkin5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:53 pm

Double post

Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:00 pm

Linkin5 wrote:I’m sure there were also excellent horse carriage drivers, chimney sweeps, and telephone operators, unfortunately the world changes and people either adapt or they don’t.


Well this would be another drop in the bucket. We're moving away from being a society filled with skilled, useful people, to a society filled with people who don't really DO anything at all.

Linkin5
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Linkin5 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:39 pm

Busguy2010 wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:I’m sure there were also excellent horse carriage drivers, chimney sweeps, and telephone operators, unfortunately the world changes and people either adapt or they don’t.


Well this would be another drop in the bucket. We're moving away from being a society filled with skilled, useful people, to a society filled with people who don't really DO anything at all.


Very untrue, we are moving to a society where people do different tasks and are skilled in different areas, more of a tertiary society that has a large service based industry.

Trips
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Trips » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:51 pm

Busguy2010 wrote:My question about autonomous vehicles is why?


Is a Streetcar not an autonomous vehicle?

Level 5 autonomy for passenger vehicles will be on the Interstates in the next 2 years. For trucks it will save them 30% in fuel costs and you can fit more vehicles on the road as they will be driving closer and faster. When you are driving hundreds of thousands of miles a year that is a huge savings.

Right now I can drive hands free with my car for about 80% of my 17 mile drive to work. If Omaha and Papillion would do a better job of marking the streets it would be almost 90%. When I go to see my parents I only have to take control of the steering wheel a couple times over the 70 mile drive. This technology is coming and I would be for anything that helps it.

Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:03 pm

Linkin5 wrote:more of a tertiary society that has a large service based industry.


Well, I guess I don't find a lot of value in that. Service industry sucks and anybody can do it, thus why they never pay enough to live well off of. So you have a lot of skilled people doing jobs anybody can do, being paid what that market dictates. That goes full circle to my "degenerative" comment. The more unskilled jobs there are, the need for people to possess practical skills (for work or surviving in general) diminishes, thus reducing the quality of people.

So I think the streetcar will be beneficial to our microcosm in that it will engage people in a real activity, vs being isolated in an autonomic pod, doing whatever with your electronic device. Walking, engaging with other people, physical interaction with your environment. On top of the construction it will stimulate, it will slow everyone down, which is something our society needs right about now.

I'm seeing a philosophical benefit that people might not notice on the surface. I think it'll be great.

Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:08 pm

Trips wrote:Is a Streetcar not an autonomous vehicle?

Streetcars have operators, as long as we keep it that way. Which reminds me of the D.C. metro accident.

Trips wrote:Right now I can drive hands free with my car for about 80% of my 17 mile drive to work. If Omaha and Papillion would do a better job of marking the streets it would be almost 90%. When I go to see my parents I only have to take control of the steering wheel a couple times over the 70 mile drive. This technology is coming and I would be for anything that helps it.


Honest question, what car do you drive, and what do you do with the time you spend not driving?

buildomaha
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby buildomaha » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:11 am

Busguy2010 wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:more of a tertiary society that has a large service based industry.


Well, I guess I don't find a lot of value in that. Service industry sucks and anybody can do it, thus why they never pay enough to live well off of. So you have a lot of skilled people doing jobs anybody can do, being paid what that market dictates. That goes full circle to my "degenerative" comment. The more unskilled jobs there are, the need for people to possess practical skills (for work or surviving in general) diminishes, thus reducing the quality of people.

So I think the streetcar will be beneficial to our microcosm in that it will engage people in a real activity, vs being isolated in an autonomic pod, doing whatever with your electronic device. Walking, engaging with other people, physical interaction with your environment. On top of the construction it will stimulate, it will slow everyone down, which is something our society needs right about now.

I'm seeing a philosophical benefit that people might not notice on the surface. I think it'll be great.

Let’s just take a look at the situation. Semi trucks take up tons of resources and time and road space and autonomous vehicles are look at solving the safety and efficiency issues that they cause. Humans are always going to have errors because we’re human. We just can’t avoid the obvious advantage of lives saved by having a much safer driving situation.

Secondly advances in technology are always made. Over and over people claim apocalypse when anything is made automatic or aided by machines because supposedly all jobs in that area will disappear. If you look at this claim historicallly, it’s 100% inaccurate, and jobs are ALWAYS created when a big technological push like this is implemented.

It seems to me that your view on the situation is probably how your view is on a lot of things: if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. You can’t have a society with that mindset if you want a nation, city to be successful and competitive on the 21 century world stage. Technology is advancing at breakneck speeds and humanity is going to accomplish more than ever before due to this international competition. It’s the same concept that pushes capitalism to be such a successful economic model.

But if we really want to talk about making our transportation Efficient, this country should be investing heavily in high speed rail. There is not a single reason why there should be millions of slow, inefficient semis hauling our stuff across the country.

Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:31 pm

buildomaha wrote:Humans are always going to have errors because we’re human. We just can’t avoid the obvious advantage of lives saved by having a much safer driving situation.


I don't think it's going to be that peachy. Machines, cumputers, and robots fail all the time for the very same reason.

Also, I'd argue most accidents aren't true "accidents". The idiot behind the wheel is the cause of a collision. Unfortunately when you put an idiot in a car driving 70mph, it makes no exceptions as to who it takes out with it.

I'd also be hopeful to say most people aren't idiots. Hopefully. So I view it as a "cool" technology that is unnecessary. And since I earned the privilege to drive by being good at it, I'd like to be able to buy a drivable car in the future, should I need to. So long as I will still be able to drive in 20 or 30 years, it'll be okay. I can coexist with the technology, but I do not support it in any way.

GrandpaaSmucker
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GrandpaaSmucker » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:46 pm

Trips wrote:]
Right now I can drive hands free with my car for about 80% of my 17 mile drive to work. .



What you are saying may be true but I find that hard to believe. It may not be impossible but I have not seen it yet in person or on TV.

buildomaha
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby buildomaha » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:51 pm

Busguy2010 wrote:
buildomaha wrote:Humans are always going to have errors because we’re human. We just can’t avoid the obvious advantage of lives saved by having a much safer driving situation.


I don't think it's going to be that peachy. Machines, cumputers, and robots fail all the time for the very same reason.

Also, I'd argue most accidents aren't true "accidents". The idiot behind the wheel is the cause of a collision. Unfortunately when you put an idiot in a car driving 70mph, it makes no exceptions as to who it takes out with it.

I'd also be hopeful to say most people aren't idiots. Hopefully. So I view it as a "cool" technology that is unnecessary. And since I earned the privilege to drive by being good at it, I'd like to be able to buy a drivable car in the future, should I need to. So long as I will still be able to drive in 20 or 30 years, it'll be okay. I can coexist with the technology, but I do not support it in any way.

The accident and fatalit rate of automobiles are so high in this country because the qualifications of driving are almost nothing. Pass a simple driving test and your free to take you 2 ton vehicle that goes 100 mph and do what you want. If we could eliminate the human error, so many lives could be saved. Computers fail a lot less than someone driving on their phone, or picking up the sunglasses they dropped on the ground, or changing the music, or drunk. Although I hate the car centric society, people won’t be giving yp their cars, just getting safer more efficient ones. And there is zero factual argument that could be made other than “well I like driving myself”

Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:37 pm

buildomaha wrote:“well I like driving myself”
:shrug:

mistergutierrez
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby mistergutierrez » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:11 pm

Just for the record:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... death_rate
Back in my country, Spain, you must be 18 to get a driver's licence. You need to enroll in a driving school in order to prepare an official exam (theory and practice). Tuition fees and other taxes sum around $1000.

Athomsfere
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Athomsfere » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:43 pm

Busguy2010 wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:more of a tertiary society that has a large service based industry.


Well, I guess I don't find a lot of value in that. Service industry sucks and anybody can do it, thus why they never pay enough to live well off of. So you have a lot of skilled people doing jobs anybody can do, being paid what that market dictates. That goes full circle to my "degenerative" comment. The more unskilled jobs there are, the need for people to possess practical skills (for work or surviving in general) diminishes, thus reducing the quality of people.


I think this is something viewed from a largely American lens.

The service industry in Japan for example is amazing! And there is enormous value to the service industry that Americans tend to over look.

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iamjacobm
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby iamjacobm » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:14 pm

Another article without much new info, but this comment seems relevant to the discussion.

http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/advocate-likens-omaha-streetcar-push-to-centurylink-center-at-the/article_e58ea042-2b51-5c98-bc3b-5603519faf6e.html

Lund said the advocacy group is waiting on the final cost "so we can figure out a financing mechanism." But he told the board that the streetcar “can and will happen without a citywide property tax increase, and the funding will be provided by the corridor.”


I imagine that means it will come to a vote for the people living w/in x amount of blocks of the line and avoid a citywide vote that is surely guaranteed to fail.


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