Omaha Streetcar Discussion
Moderators: Coyote, nebugeater, Brad, Omaha Cowboy, BRoss
The Midtown route would also lend to high ridership (the best transit corridor according to HDR) because of its residential density and it also has a good employment base. Further, Harney and Farnam would be great alignments for the streetcar because of their low traffic volumes and somewhat pedestrian-oriented environment.
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projectman
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I would still like to see more people walking from the condo to the Old Market or to their office building than using streetcars. I am all for getting streetcars in Omaha but hopefully they won't discourage people from walking from one downtown location to another downtown location.
I have a vision of crowded streets with tons of people out walking 24/7.
I have a vision of crowded streets with tons of people out walking 24/7.
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UNOstudent
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StreetsOfOmaha
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Projectman, the whole idea of Streetcars is not that it discourages walking, but promotes it!!!
"The right to have access to every building in the city by private motorcar in an age when everyone possesses such a vehicle is actually the right to destroy the city."
Lewis Mumford, The Highway and the City, 1963
Lewis Mumford, The Highway and the City, 1963
Zephyr, Streets....you guys ever see that movie "Singles"? Just curious because what you're doing reminds me in a way of the Campbell Scott character. Hes this guy with major passion for mass transit and tries to start a Supertrain concept in Seattle. Its a pretty decent movie. You should check it out if you haven't seen it though the rail thing is just an aside to the actual story.
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almighty_tuna
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OMAHA STREETCAR is Back in Black!!
After months of inactivity, we are making a comeback!
Suggested Audio
The website has been updated
And stay tuned for the announcement of our first public meeting, hopefully this fall.
In the meantime, I wanted to let the new people know about our group and also remind the old folks that we are still alive and kicking. Let me know if you have any questions, or contact the organization at:
omahastreetcar@gmail.com
Suggested Audio
The website has been updated
And stay tuned for the announcement of our first public meeting, hopefully this fall.
In the meantime, I wanted to let the new people know about our group and also remind the old folks that we are still alive and kicking. Let me know if you have any questions, or contact the organization at:
omahastreetcar@gmail.com
Here is the steering committee for the project..
Hal Daub, American Health Care Association
Aaron Detter, UNO
Joseph DeRozza, Farnam 1600 Apartments
Vince Furlong, Omaha Main Streets
Roger Holthaus, Holthaus Law Offices
Joe Kelly, UNO
Gerald Kopiasz, Heartland Railroad Historical Society
Eric Miller, URS Corporation
Aaron Pfeifer
Robert Shaw, Dominion Resource Group, Inc.
Don't you think it would be a good idea to engage the people that actually make the decisions in whether a project like this would happen? Maybe get someone on board from the mayor's office, the planning department, public works, member of the city council? This thing will go nowhere without their involvement.
Hal Daub, American Health Care Association
Aaron Detter, UNO
Joseph DeRozza, Farnam 1600 Apartments
Vince Furlong, Omaha Main Streets
Roger Holthaus, Holthaus Law Offices
Joe Kelly, UNO
Gerald Kopiasz, Heartland Railroad Historical Society
Eric Miller, URS Corporation
Aaron Pfeifer
Robert Shaw, Dominion Resource Group, Inc.
Don't you think it would be a good idea to engage the people that actually make the decisions in whether a project like this would happen? Maybe get someone on board from the mayor's office, the planning department, public works, member of the city council? This thing will go nowhere without their involvement.
Streetcar Demonstration Line Proposal
With Omaha Streetcar on the rebound, I have been pondering potential streetcar routes, more specifically a demonstration or starter line that could work, given the recent studies completed like Destination Midtown. This route is about 4 miles double-tracked, so I would estimate capital costs to be about $80 Million plus another $10-15 Million for the vehicles and maintenance facility (depending on how many vehicles).
So what do you think?
So what do you think?
sounds good to me!
I think a really obvious line that we've all heard proposed alreadys is tenth st from the airport to rosenblatt.
Nearly everyone of Omaha's tourists attractions lies along or right near that corridor, so it doesn't make sense that we already don't have some sort of streetcar or light rail, if only for the out of towners.
I think a really obvious line that we've all heard proposed alreadys is tenth st from the airport to rosenblatt.
Nearly everyone of Omaha's tourists attractions lies along or right near that corridor, so it doesn't make sense that we already don't have some sort of streetcar or light rail, if only for the out of towners.
The only problem with running a streetcar route to the airport from downtown is that there really is no reason to stop from Gallup to the Airport... that's more of a rapid transit route for LRT or express buses.
This route would obviously be a springboard for extensions along 10th Street and to North Downtown - you know, that old chestnut.
My primary focus with this route is to implement what transit should be: the constant moving of people at all times of the day, not just rush hour. With downtown, midtown, and the medical center & students, you'd get that.
This route would obviously be a springboard for extensions along 10th Street and to North Downtown - you know, that old chestnut.
My primary focus with this route is to implement what transit should be: the constant moving of people at all times of the day, not just rush hour. With downtown, midtown, and the medical center & students, you'd get that.
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Vince Furlong
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I like it.
1. High density area
2. Would create additional density
3. Nice hills for upward/downward views
4. I would use it.
5. Many destinations within blocks.
6. $80M for this sounds better for the city than the $100Ms for the Dodge Xway, MAPA Beltway...
Questions
1. How many riders do you propose?
2. Fare would be _____ ?
Vince Furlong
1. High density area
2. Would create additional density
3. Nice hills for upward/downward views
4. I would use it.
5. Many destinations within blocks.
6. $80M for this sounds better for the city than the $100Ms for the Dodge Xway, MAPA Beltway...
Questions
1. How many riders do you propose?
2. Fare would be _____ ?
Vince Furlong
Hmmm... some tough questions that would be more defined during final design process, but I could give some rough estimates.
Ridership would of course depend on traffic flows but based on existing and planned systems, I would estimate 4,000-6,000 peeps on an average weekday.
Fares depend on sponsorships and whether or not a BID could be set up - if enough businesses and residents get interested, the fare could just be free, like the Tacoma Link and most of the Portland Streetcar line. But otherwise, it would probably be similar to MAT's fares. Also, if fares are charged, programs could be set up with businesses and institutions to offer employees and students free passes, similar to my EcoPass I get at work.
Ridership would of course depend on traffic flows but based on existing and planned systems, I would estimate 4,000-6,000 peeps on an average weekday.
Fares depend on sponsorships and whether or not a BID could be set up - if enough businesses and residents get interested, the fare could just be free, like the Tacoma Link and most of the Portland Streetcar line. But otherwise, it would probably be similar to MAT's fares. Also, if fares are charged, programs could be set up with businesses and institutions to offer employees and students free passes, similar to my EcoPass I get at work.
I agree that the Farnam/Harney route makes sense in the long term. Or even Farnam or Harney alone if it they get converted back to two way traffic. Linking Mutual of Omaha and UNMC would be a very good idea. And there are plenty of redevelopment opportunities along that corridor. But where are you bringing these people? They aren't going to be hanging out at the Durham Museum all day. I think that a better starter line would connect the Convention Center, Old Market, the Downtown Core, and the very high redevelopment potential that exists in the North Downtown area. The Farnam/Harney line makes sense if it could hook into these areas as an expanded route.
A line out to the zoo or the airport will not get much "bang for the buck", so I would agree that it probably isn't suited for a streetcar.
A line out to the zoo or the airport will not get much "bang for the buck", so I would agree that it probably isn't suited for a streetcar.
Do you really think 4-6,000 would use this line Eric? That seems like a pretty optimistic number to me, but of course I know very little about these things.
I guess I would have thought a line running from Cuming (I see your point on the airport) to the zoo would get as much use as any. Granted it would likely come in spurts, rather than continuous day to day use. But I think such a route would not only be one more feather in our convention/tourism cap... but also provide the perfect proof of concept for a broader system.
I guess I would have thought a line running from Cuming (I see your point on the airport) to the zoo would get as much use as any. Granted it would likely come in spurts, rather than continuous day to day use. But I think such a route would not only be one more feather in our convention/tourism cap... but also provide the perfect proof of concept for a broader system.
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StreetsOfOmaha
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Good call, Jeff. Question the ridership estimate of the man who's life is rail transit and transit planning. Good call 
.
Anyway, of course I think that is the PERFECT line to start out with. So does the final document from Destination Midtown. And as Eric said, future LRT rapid transit would connect the airport, Riverfront, Qwest Center and downtown. Future streetcar expansions would include north downtown and north Omaha, south downtown including zoo/rosenblatt, and of course further into midtown. Future LRT rapid transit routes would connect further west.
Anyway, this is the perfect starter route because there is already a population/work base in place. A line connecting midtown and downtown would be perfect because you'd be connecting Omaha's densest neighborhoods to the core as well as providing for people who commute to and from downtown and midtown everyday at rush hour and over lunch hour.
.Anyway, of course I think that is the PERFECT line to start out with. So does the final document from Destination Midtown. And as Eric said, future LRT rapid transit would connect the airport, Riverfront, Qwest Center and downtown. Future streetcar expansions would include north downtown and north Omaha, south downtown including zoo/rosenblatt, and of course further into midtown. Future LRT rapid transit routes would connect further west.
Anyway, this is the perfect starter route because there is already a population/work base in place. A line connecting midtown and downtown would be perfect because you'd be connecting Omaha's densest neighborhoods to the core as well as providing for people who commute to and from downtown and midtown everyday at rush hour and over lunch hour.
"The right to have access to every building in the city by private motorcar in an age when everyone possesses such a vehicle is actually the right to destroy the city."
Lewis Mumford, The Highway and the City, 1963
Lewis Mumford, The Highway and the City, 1963
How about NOT extending any future light rail into the west for awhile. Let them have their freeways and sprawl. I think the rail could be used as in incentive to get people to head east. More people over here would use it immediatly and it would also be handy for the 10th St. route.
Eric, since you know about this do a lot of LRTs go into suburban areas? Are they just not as extensive?
Eric, since you know about this do a lot of LRTs go into suburban areas? Are they just not as extensive?
DTO
(Hence, the 'I know very little about these things' qualifier there ace)
I thought perhaps Eric could provide a little more insight into how these numbers are derived. I mean according to Destination Midtown, there are only 28,000 residents in the Midtown area (not necessarily within a short distance of this proposed line)... and what are we thinking, 8,000 living in downtown Omaha? So we're talking 36,000 people, presumably most of the downtown residents are already walking to work... perhaps a few running out to the Mutual campus. Given most of Omaha's employment is based in suburban Omaha, many of these people are likely going to be heading west to get to work. So how do we arrive at this number. Isn't Denver's much longer line carrying only around 15,000 riders a day itself? (into a downtown district which employs many more people/has thousands going to baseball/football games/etc). I assume many of these are park and ride people avoiding the traffic madness. We have a different situation here, with targeted ridership already within a relatively short range of their destination by bus. By the time they walk to the rail line, couldn't they take the bus to their downtown destination? I am of course as excited about having a light rail line as anyone, but I have no doubt there will be plenty of people/politicians/etc raising questions/looking for detailed information supporting a proposed need. If you can't convince me, the blind proponent (|expletive|, I'll sign up for another couple of hundred on my property tax bill just for the opportunity to have the thrill of riding it from an entirely different part of the city I live in), you're sure as heck not going to convince the average, tax wary, Omahan.
I thought perhaps Eric could provide a little more insight into how these numbers are derived. I mean according to Destination Midtown, there are only 28,000 residents in the Midtown area (not necessarily within a short distance of this proposed line)... and what are we thinking, 8,000 living in downtown Omaha? So we're talking 36,000 people, presumably most of the downtown residents are already walking to work... perhaps a few running out to the Mutual campus. Given most of Omaha's employment is based in suburban Omaha, many of these people are likely going to be heading west to get to work. So how do we arrive at this number. Isn't Denver's much longer line carrying only around 15,000 riders a day itself? (into a downtown district which employs many more people/has thousands going to baseball/football games/etc). I assume many of these are park and ride people avoiding the traffic madness. We have a different situation here, with targeted ridership already within a relatively short range of their destination by bus. By the time they walk to the rail line, couldn't they take the bus to their downtown destination? I am of course as excited about having a light rail line as anyone, but I have no doubt there will be plenty of people/politicians/etc raising questions/looking for detailed information supporting a proposed need. If you can't convince me, the blind proponent (|expletive|, I'll sign up for another couple of hundred on my property tax bill just for the opportunity to have the thrill of riding it from an entirely different part of the city I live in), you're sure as heck not going to convince the average, tax wary, Omahan.
DTO: Yes, most LRT lines do run into the suburbs, most times serving a different city because the central city is cut off by suburbs (i.e. Dallas, Denver, St. Louis, and Minneapolis. The average station spacing for an LRT line in the suburbs is about 1 mile and the average length is about 15 miles long from downtown to suburb.
Jeff: Ridership numbers for streetcars are different than LRT because instead of getting the usual work commuters (in some cases, like SLC's University Line, LRT functions like a streetcar) you get day long riders - shoppers, lunch patrons, break-timers, entertainment goers, etc - bacause of the closer station spacing and the better pedestrian environment. I just took numbers from Tacoma, Portland, and Atlanta and figured we'd be somewhere in between. And average daily ridership on Denver's light rail is nearing 40,000.
Jeff: Ridership numbers for streetcars are different than LRT because instead of getting the usual work commuters (in some cases, like SLC's University Line, LRT functions like a streetcar) you get day long riders - shoppers, lunch patrons, break-timers, entertainment goers, etc - bacause of the closer station spacing and the better pedestrian environment. I just took numbers from Tacoma, Portland, and Atlanta and figured we'd be somewhere in between. And average daily ridership on Denver's light rail is nearing 40,000.
The next step is to conduct a feasibility study, which would determine the placement of a demonstration route, similar to Atlanta: http://www.atlantastreetcar.com/pdfs/AS ... ummary.pdf. That's what we're working on now with Omaha Streetcar.Swift wrote:So how does this become reality? What needs to happen? What's the next step?
Zephyr-
Who is funding your feasibility study? It's good to hear that somebody in this city is being proactive enough to fund this. It would be an important step in showing the progression of Omaha. Too show the nation that even a small city, like Omaha in the Midwest, is thinking of ways to improve their urban environment and conserve on the oil consumption.
Who is the company, firm, or professional working on it?
Who is funding your feasibility study? It's good to hear that somebody in this city is being proactive enough to fund this. It would be an important step in showing the progression of Omaha. Too show the nation that even a small city, like Omaha in the Midwest, is thinking of ways to improve their urban environment and conserve on the oil consumption.
Who is the company, firm, or professional working on it?
just thinking out loud here but it would nice if you could connect UNO, UNMC area and Creighton to Downtown. Depending on how late such a thing would run alot of students would take advantage of this transportation for DT nightlife(discourages drunk driving aswell), which would greatly increase your ridership.
also, even for a demo line I'd atleast connect Qwest Center to the old market area if not the zoo.
also, even for a demo line I'd atleast connect Qwest Center to the old market area if not the zoo.
Good ideas about connecting the student population and capturing that ridership - that is a great recipe for success for most transit lines.
Another possibility would be to run the streetcar up to Qwest and have a maintenance facility under I-480. The main reason I was thinking of connecting the Burlington to begin the impetus for a future transit hub. Lots to think about!
Another possibility would be to run the streetcar up to Qwest and have a maintenance facility under I-480. The main reason I was thinking of connecting the Burlington to begin the impetus for a future transit hub. Lots to think about!
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StreetsOfOmaha
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nebport, you're exactly right about connecting UNO, UNMC, and Creighton to downtown. This demonstration line would connect UNMC to downtown, and would eventually be extended to UNO, probably the south Campus where it can also tap into the Aksarben project.
It will be nice.
And WT, calling Omaha a small city is not accurate, not to mention subjective. ;)
It will be nice.
And WT, calling Omaha a small city is not accurate, not to mention subjective. ;)
"The right to have access to every building in the city by private motorcar in an age when everyone possesses such a vehicle is actually the right to destroy the city."
Lewis Mumford, The Highway and the City, 1963
Lewis Mumford, The Highway and the City, 1963
I see that HDR was involved with the Atlanta project, are they working with you here as well?Zephyr wrote:The next step is to conduct a feasibility study, which would determine the placement of a demonstration route, similar to Atlanta: http://www.atlantastreetcar.com/pdfs/AS ... ummary.pdf That's what we're working on now with Omaha Streetcar.Swift wrote:So how does this become reality? What needs to happen? What's the next step?
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StreetsOfOmaha
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almighty_tuna
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projectman
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