Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Trains, Planes, and Automobiles (and Streetcars!).

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GRANDPASMUCKER
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:48 pm

OmahaCowgirl wrote:The numbers for the Rail dont make any sense to anyone who can do math, so look realistically at what this is - corporate welfare for Mutual of Omaha, the company that designs the Rail (HDR), the company that builds the Rail (Kiewit), and the company that manages the Rail (some relative of a city official). That is how Omaha works.

Mutual of Omaha spent an enormous amount of money on Midtown Crossing, and although it might look nice, it has been a huge loss of money. Isn't that right Ken Cook? Who is going to spend $500,000 on a 2500 sq foot condo that is NOT in the Old Market? Wasn't a good idea to begin with, but if they do a lot more construction to the East of Turner Park, convince the city to build a light rail, eventually connect Midtown Crossing to the Old Market, making a corridor of restaurants and bars and retail and apartments, then maybe in 2025 or 2030, people will pay $500,000 for a 2500 sq ft condo in Midtown Crossing



The puzzle piece sure fits good I will give ya that! Still I hope and would like to believe that Mutual Of Omaha would not have any part of this scam.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby choke » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:25 pm

OmahaCowgirl wrote:The numbers for the Rail dont make any sense to anyone who can do math, so look realistically at what this is - corporate welfare for Mutual of Omaha, the company that designs the Rail (HDR), the company that builds the Rail (Kiewit), and the company that manages the Rail (some relative of a city official). That is how Omaha works.

Mutual of Omaha spent an enormous amount of money on Midtown Crossing, and although it might look nice, it has been a huge loss of money. Isn't that right Ken Cook? Who is going to spend $500,000 on a 2500 sq foot condo that is NOT in the Old Market? Wasn't a good idea to begin with, but if they do a lot more construction to the East of Turner Park, convince the city to build a light rail, eventually connect Midtown Crossing to the Old Market, making a corridor of restaurants and bars and retail and apartments, then maybe in 2025 or 2030, people will pay $500,000 for a 2500 sq ft condo in Midtown Crossing


I know I am right about this: Mutual of Omaha has been a pillar of the community and has gave a tremendous amount back to Omaha. And I could be wrong about this but Mutual of Omaha has sure done more for this city than some of the people rant'n and ravin' on this message board about the major corporations in Omaha that happen to employ a lot of people and who sponsor many local events. As the Fonz would say, "Sit on it."

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:01 am

choke wrote:
OmahaCowgirl wrote:The numbers for the Rail dont make any sense to anyone who can do math, so look realistically at what this is - corporate welfare for Mutual of Omaha, the company that designs the Rail (HDR), the company that builds the Rail (Kiewit), and the company that manages the Rail (some relative of a city official). That is how Omaha works.

Mutual of Omaha spent an enormous amount of money on Midtown Crossing, and although it might look nice, it has been a huge loss of money. Isn't that right Ken Cook? Who is going to spend $500,000 on a 2500 sq foot condo that is NOT in the Old Market? Wasn't a good idea to begin with, but if they do a lot more construction to the East of Turner Park, convince the city to build a light rail, eventually connect Midtown Crossing to the Old Market, making a corridor of restaurants and bars and retail and apartments, then maybe in 2025 or 2030, people will pay $500,000 for a 2500 sq ft condo in Midtown Crossing


I know I am right about this: Mutual of Omaha has been a pillar of the community and has gave a tremendous amount back to Omaha. And I could be wrong about this but Mutual of Omaha has sure done more for this city than some of the people rant'n and ravin' on this message board about the major corporations in Omaha that happen to employ a lot of people and who sponsor many local events. As the Fonz would say, "Sit on it."

Sorry, insults are not part of adult discussion. While I have no fight with Mutual or these other firms, I also question the wisdom of the plan. Guess I should sit on my concerns? Sorry, just not going to do that. We can meet this need in a way that is cheaper, been tested in larger cities with even less population density.

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Re: So You Wanna Build a Streetcar ...

Postby iamjacobm » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:41 am

Omababe wrote:This may be of interest ...

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... now-214915


I felt like this is a very fair look at modern streetcars and makes some great points. The 5 criteria laid out for a successful line were:

1. Put streetcars where the people already are—and want to go.
2. Streetcars can’t be too pokey.
3. No one wants to wait forever.
4. Put your money where the streetcar is—and keep it coming.
5. Make sure you know why you want a streetcar.


Streetcars are not going to solve every transit problem and they can end up being money drains if put in the wrong place or not funded correctly, but done right have proven to be boons for their city's urban areas.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:29 am

http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/omaha-r ... 9ed16.html

Two questions:

How will the streetcar have meaningful impact on UNMC's parking issues if the line ends there and goes east where parking is even more of a problem?

Why do politicians think we are stupid? Telling us that this project estimated by fan boys at $150M is really only going to cost $10M. We know that these fan boy estimates are usually way under what the final bill is. We know that these too clever by half financial schemes seldom work for the taxpayers and we have example after example (TDAmeritrade, Ralston Arena, Baxter Arena, and Century Link Arena) of this sort of scheme going wrong. How about true dollar cost accounting?

We could run this loop with free buses like in Orlando and be faster to the finish line and spending a lot less money.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby omahahawk » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:00 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUs8PEt3vGQ


After 1 month, how's Kansas City's streetcar doing?

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:30 am

I am friends with a guy and his family who own some land and property right on Farnam along the proposed streetcar route. Nobody has come along and made any offers for their property or mentioned any plans for a street car or asked them what they thought about it. They have not heard anything from anyone. It said in the paper yesterday that they had plans to get the businesses along Farnam to help pay for it. I wouldn't be so sure about that!

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby tpaine » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:17 am

Impressive statistics regarding Kansas City's streetcar line, contributing to $1.8 billion in downtown development with 1.4 million riders annually. Exciting to see how this will translate to Omaha. See informative article below:

http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/kansas- ... 4573d.html

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby choke » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:34 am

tpaine wrote:Impressive statistics regarding Kansas City's streetcar line, contributing to $1.8 billion in downtown development with 1.4 million riders annually. Exciting to see how this will translate to Omaha. See informative article below:

http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/kansas- ... 4573d.html


The town cryers have started to come out in opposition. It's all over for Omaha. Just like Crossroads. While Gretna enjoys success with the Outlet Mall, Omahans didn't want to invest in their city to redevelop Crossroads and now it sits rotting. Now, KC will enjoy success with their streetcar and Omaha will ignore public transportion, once again.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GetUrban » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:46 pm

GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:I am friends with a guy and his family who own some land and property right on Farnam along the proposed streetcar route. Nobody has come along and made any offers for their property or mentioned any plans for a street car or asked them what they thought about it. They have not heard anything from anyone. It said in the paper yesterday that they had plans to get the businesses along Farnam to help pay for it. I wouldn't be so sure about that!

Let me guess....their property is a large surface parking lot? But I can see how a property owner that doesn't need or want more people to have another way to get to their property would be against it. Having streetcar access will ultimately increase property values in the area, however.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:12 pm

GetUrban wrote:
GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:I am friends with a guy and his family who own some land and property right on Farnam along the proposed streetcar route. Nobody has come along and made any offers for their property or mentioned any plans for a street car or asked them what they thought about it. They have not heard anything from anyone. It said in the paper yesterday that they had plans to get the businesses along Farnam to help pay for it. I wouldn't be so sure about that!

Let me guess....their property is a large surface parking lot? But I can see how a property owner that doesn't need or want more people to have another way to get to their property would be against it. Having streetcar access will ultimately increase property values in the area, however.


Why? Seriously, why? A street car system like Prague is crowded like crazy, yet it doesn't seem to add to the value there. This system will go from downtown to UNMC shuttling back and forth. How will this add value? Please give me some actual numbers here. I am tired of fan boys' rosey scenarios.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GetUrban » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:03 pm

bigredmed wrote:
GetUrban wrote:
GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:I am friends with a guy and his family who own some land and property right on Farnam along the proposed streetcar route. Nobody has come along and made any offers for their property or mentioned any plans for a street car or asked them what they thought about it. They have not heard anything from anyone. It said in the paper yesterday that they had plans to get the businesses along Farnam to help pay for it. I wouldn't be so sure about that!

Let me guess....their property is a large surface parking lot? But I can see how a property owner that doesn't need or want more people to have another way to get to their property would be against it. Having streetcar access will ultimately increase property values in the area, however.


Why? Seriously, why? A street car system like Prague is crowded like crazy, yet it doesn't seem to add to the value there. This system will go from downtown to UNMC shuttling back and forth. How will this add value? Please give me some actual numbers here. I am tired of fan boys' rosey scenarios.


I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that formerly less desirable run-down areas such as Blackstone and Midtown that are gaining new development activity will see property values increase. Increasing the density of development and number of people in an area by replacing surface lots with new residential and business space, while enhancing transit access, will help accelerate the pace of redevelopment, as explained in the article above about KC, numbers included. I'd rather be called a fan-boy or better yet, an optimist.....rather than a naysayer or curmudgeon. I'm tired of those.

I'd bet that you'd see more people who work at UNMC seriously consider living closer to UNMC along the streetcar line between DT and UNMC and further west on an expanded system in the future, if they had a good alternative to the hassle of driving and parking at UNMC.
Last edited by GetUrban on Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby TitosBuritoBarn » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:52 pm

bigredmed wrote:
GetUrban wrote:
GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:I am friends with a guy and his family who own some land and property right on Farnam along the proposed streetcar route. Nobody has come along and made any offers for their property or mentioned any plans for a street car or asked them what they thought about it. They have not heard anything from anyone. It said in the paper yesterday that they had plans to get the businesses along Farnam to help pay for it. I wouldn't be so sure about that!

Let me guess....their property is a large surface parking lot? But I can see how a property owner that doesn't need or want more people to have another way to get to their property would be against it. Having streetcar access will ultimately increase property values in the area, however.


Why? Seriously, why? A street car system like Prague is crowded like crazy, yet it doesn't seem to add to the value there. This system will go from downtown to UNMC shuttling back and forth. How will this add value? Please give me some actual numbers here. I am tired of fan boys' rosey scenarios.


What kind of value are you interested in? Property values? Economic? Congestion mitigation?

I think you answered your own question regarding the Prague system. Imagine all those people in cars trying to navigate the city and then park somewhere. Consider all the great architecture that would have to go away to make way for care storage. Maybe a bus would work. I'm not sure what the general opinion of buses is in the EU. I only have experience with Munich's system and their streetcars run some redundant routes with buses. I'm sure there's a reason.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby tpaine » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:54 pm

bigredmed wrote: Why? Seriously, why? A street car system like Prague is crowded like crazy, yet it doesn't seem to add to the value there. This system will go from downtown to UNMC shuttling back and forth. How will this add value? Please give me some actual numbers here. I am tired of fan boys' rosey scenarios.


In addition to the analogous evidence related to the Kansas City streetcar cited above, there has been an independent study conducted by Dr. Ernest Goss, professor of economics at Creighton University and director of Goss & Associates Economic Solutions in Denver, Colorado, entitled “The Impact of a Walkable, Workable, and Livable Midtown Omaha” (January 24, 2017). This in-depth study estimates that the proposed Omaha streetcar will have an economic impact of over $1.6 billion in development, create 16,716 new jobs, and generate $70.4 million in state and local tax collections – all within the first two years. Within five years, the rate of return for our city’s investment is projected to multiply to over $364 million in new tax revenue with an economic impact of over $8.7 billion.

It must be pointed out that encouraging the city to invest in and improve OUR community's urban core is not a bad thing. Midtown Omaha is currently plagued with problems. These problems include aging sidewalks and streets, a plethora of surface parking lots that generate very little city revenue, and one-way streets that simply get people through Midtown as quickly as possible without any consideration to the businesses attempting to make a profit therein. Development in Midtown has been led by private institutions while city funds have been disproportionately invested out west into streets that will never be self-sustaining as compared to a modern streetcar. Having a strong urban core makes the entire city economically sustainable in the long term without relying solely upon annexation. The projected millions of dollars in annual revenue for the city and state may also be used for other projects currently complained of on this forum (e.g., fixing pot-holes). What other economic tool can a city deploy that will have even a fraction of this return? Numerous studies have demonstrated that the modern streetcar—when placed strategically—has a proven track record of success in cities all over the U.S., just like Omaha. Our mayor can leverage philanthropic and city funds to invest in a verified asset that will add millions of dollars to the entire community for decades to come. Omaha can thus benefit tremendously from a modern streetcar, but only if citizens embrace it. Progress is impossible without change.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:01 pm

tpaine wrote:
bigredmed wrote: Why? Seriously, why? A street car system like Prague is crowded like crazy, yet it doesn't seem to add to the value there. This system will go from downtown to UNMC shuttling back and forth. How will this add value? Please give me some actual numbers here. I am tired of fan boys' rosey scenarios.


In addition to the analogous evidence related to the Kansas City streetcar cited above, there has been an independent study conducted by Dr. Ernest Goss, professor of economics at Creighton University and director of Goss & Associates Economic Solutions in Denver, Colorado, entitled “The Impact of a Walkable, Workable, and Livable Midtown Omaha” (January 24, 2017). This in-depth study estimates that the proposed Omaha streetcar will have an economic impact of over $1.6 billion in development, create 16,716 new jobs, and generate $70.4 million in state and local tax collections – all within the first two years. Within five years, the rate of return for our city’s investment is projected to multiply to over $364 million in new tax revenue with an economic impact of over $8.7 billion.

It must be pointed out that encouraging the city to invest in and improve OUR community's urban core is not a bad thing. Midtown Omaha is currently plagued with problems. These problems include aging sidewalks and streets, a plethora of surface parking lots that generate very little city revenue, and one-way streets that simply get people through Midtown as quickly as possible without any consideration to the businesses attempting to make a profit therein. Development in Midtown has been led by private institutions while city funds have been disproportionately invested out west into streets that will never be self-sustaining as compared to a modern streetcar. Having a strong urban core makes the entire city economically sustainable in the long term without relying solely upon annexation. The projected millions of dollars in annual revenue for the city and state may also be used for other projects currently complained of on this forum (e.g., fixing pot-holes). What other economic tool can a city deploy that will have even a fraction of this return? Numerous studies have demonstrated that the modern streetcar—when placed strategically—has a proven track record of success in cities all over the U.S., just like Omaha. Our mayor can leverage philanthropic and city funds to invest in a verified asset that will add millions of dollars to the entire community for decades to come. Omaha can thus benefit tremendously from a modern streetcar, but only if citizens embrace it. Progress is impossible without change.



Theres that FAKE NEWS again. I was tired of Ernie Goss and his predictions 20 years ago. Hes full of it and hes even making money selling his B.S. Can you ever trust any of the paid consultants. I say no way!

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:57 am

GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:
tpaine wrote:
bigredmed wrote: Why? Seriously, why? A street car system like Prague is crowded like crazy, yet it doesn't seem to add to the value there. This system will go from downtown to UNMC shuttling back and forth. How will this add value? Please give me some actual numbers here. I am tired of fan boys' rosey scenarios.


In addition to the analogous evidence related to the Kansas City streetcar cited above, there has been an independent study conducted by Dr. Ernest Goss, professor of economics at Creighton University and director of Goss & Associates Economic Solutions in Denver, Colorado, entitled “The Impact of a Walkable, Workable, and Livable Midtown Omaha” (January 24, 2017). This in-depth study estimates that the proposed Omaha streetcar will have an economic impact of over $1.6 billion in development, create 16,716 new jobs, and generate $70.4 million in state and local tax collections – all within the first two years. Within five years, the rate of return for our city’s investment is projected to multiply to over $364 million in new tax revenue with an economic impact of over $8.7 billion.

It must be pointed out that encouraging the city to invest in and improve OUR community's urban core is not a bad thing. Midtown Omaha is currently plagued with problems. These problems include aging sidewalks and streets, a plethora of surface parking lots that generate very little city revenue, and one-way streets that simply get people through Midtown as quickly as possible without any consideration to the businesses attempting to make a profit therein. Development in Midtown has been led by private institutions while city funds have been disproportionately invested out west into streets that will never be self-sustaining as compared to a modern streetcar. Having a strong urban core makes the entire city economically sustainable in the long term without relying solely upon annexation. The projected millions of dollars in annual revenue for the city and state may also be used for other projects currently complained of on this forum (e.g., fixing pot-holes). What other economic tool can a city deploy that will have even a fraction of this return? Numerous studies have demonstrated that the modern streetcar—when placed strategically—has a proven track record of success in cities all over the U.S., just like Omaha. Our mayor can leverage philanthropic and city funds to invest in a verified asset that will add millions of dollars to the entire community for decades to come. Omaha can thus benefit tremendously from a modern streetcar, but only if citizens embrace it. Progress is impossible without change.



Theres that FAKE NEWS again. I was tired of Ernie Goss and his predictions 20 years ago. Hes full of it and hes even making money selling his B.S. Can you ever trust any of the paid consultants. I say no way!


May not agree with you, but Ernie likes his roses.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:08 am

TitosBuritoBarn wrote:
bigredmed wrote:
GetUrban wrote:
GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:I am friends with a guy and his family who own some land and property right on Farnam along the proposed streetcar route. Nobody has come along and made any offers for their property or mentioned any plans for a street car or asked them what they thought about it. They have not heard anything from anyone. It said in the paper yesterday that they had plans to get the businesses along Farnam to help pay for it. I wouldn't be so sure about that!

Let me guess....their property is a large surface parking lot? But I can see how a property owner that doesn't need or want more people to have another way to get to their property would be against it. Having streetcar access will ultimately increase property values in the area, however.


Why? Seriously, why? A street car system like Prague is crowded like crazy, yet it doesn't seem to add to the value there. This system will go from downtown to UNMC shuttling back and forth. How will this add value? Please give me some actual numbers here. I am tired of fan boys' rosey scenarios.


What kind of value are you interested in? Property values? Economic? Congestion mitigation?

I think you answered your own question regarding the Prague system. Imagine all those people in cars trying to navigate the city and then park somewhere. Consider all the great architecture that would have to go away to make way for care storage. Maybe a bus would work. I'm not sure what the general opinion of buses is in the EU. I only have experience with Munich's system and their streetcars run some redundant routes with buses. I'm sure there's a reason.

Once again we come down to a matter of challenging your tunnelled thought. You have yourself saying that a binomial exists. Either you support a streetcar or you don't support mass transit. I think special bus routes like Orlando has would be a much more efficient and flexible way to solve this problem.

Can't speak to Munich, but in Prague, these trains have chewed up their boulevards by only running down the middle of the green space. They take up some roads and make intersections more dangerous for both cars and pedestrians. Not sure we would like this outcome.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby NovakOmaha » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:46 am

From reading the comments on the owh story and the story itself and others over the years I have a solution to all development.

Tear out the Leahy Mall & put it up for sale, no streetcar route paid by tax dollars, no incentives for anything, including crossroads & downtown, close the CLink if it needs taxpayer money, and on and on.

Zero incentives, zero taxpayer funded development, if MAT can't pay its own way shut it down or raise rates to cover costs. It's everyone for themselves. No tax money spent without a vote of the people with a 100% approval. Let land downtown sit until a company comes along and pays for the whole thing itself. If it doesn't make sense without incentives it must not make sense.

Hey, Omaha won't have much but at least taxes will be low.

(It's not April 1 but I didn't want to wait)

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby TitosBuritoBarn » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:28 am

bigredmed wrote:
TitosBuritoBarn wrote:
bigredmed wrote:
Why? Seriously, why? A street car system like Prague is crowded like crazy, yet it doesn't seem to add to the value there. This system will go from downtown to UNMC shuttling back and forth. How will this add value? Please give me some actual numbers here. I am tired of fan boys' rosey scenarios.


What kind of value are you interested in? Property values? Economic? Congestion mitigation?

I think you answered your own question regarding the Prague system. Imagine all those people in cars trying to navigate the city and then park somewhere. Consider all the great architecture that would have to go away to make way for care storage. Maybe a bus would work. I'm not sure what the general opinion of buses is in the EU. I only have experience with Munich's system and their streetcars run some redundant routes with buses. I'm sure there's a reason.

Once again we come down to a matter of challenging your tunnelled thought. You have yourself saying that a binomial exists. Either you support a streetcar or you don't support mass transit. I think special bus routes like Orlando has would be a much more efficient and flexible way to solve this problem.

Can't speak to Munich, but in Prague, these trains have chewed up their boulevards by only running down the middle of the green space. They take up some roads and make intersections more dangerous for both cars and pedestrians. Not sure we would like this outcome.


No I'm seriously asking what kind of value you are interested in. Each category? I'll get you your numbers.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby jessep28 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:07 pm

Dundeemaha wrote:The idea isn't to recoup the money in ridership fees, just like we don't recoup the money for city streets in tolls. The idea is to recoup it in taxes from the economic development that it encourages.


Which will likely be largely subsidized by taxpayers with tax increment financing.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby tpaine » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:47 pm

The opposition has requested empirical evidence that supports the proposed streetcar in Omaha, which we have easily provided (see above). In response, opponents refuse to even acknowledge the recent success of the comparable Kansas City streetcar line. Instead, the opposition relies on personal attacks against accredited sources, “fake news” cop-outs, and a random visit to Prague. If this is the best “evidence” the opposition can offer, our path forward is clear. We should build the Omaha streetcar. :yes:

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:03 pm

tpaine wrote:The opposition has requested empirical evidence that supports the proposed streetcar in Omaha, which we have easily provided (see above). In response, opponents refuse to even acknowledge the recent success of the comparable Kansas City streetcar line. Instead, the opposition relies on personal attacks against accredited sources, “fake news” cop-outs, and a random visit to Prague. If this is the best “evidence” the opposition can offer, our path forward is clear. We should build the Omaha streetcar. :yes:

Nope. The circuit proposed could be served by special purpose buses for vastly smaller sums of money. As an opponent, and as the one who referenced Prague's intersection congesting, despite running down the grassy middle of what used to be boulevards, I argue that streetcars are very expensive and we can solve this problem for far less for example, Orlando.

I think you are the vendor of personal attacks here.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dundeemaha » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:12 pm

jessep28 wrote:
Dundeemaha wrote:The idea isn't to recoup the money in ridership fees, just like we don't recoup the money for city streets in tolls. The idea is to recoup it in taxes from the economic development that it encourages.


Which will likely be largely subsidized by taxpayers with tax increment financing.


Agreed: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4379&p=269477&hilit=TIF#p269477

In my wildest dreams the city would establish an affordable housing fund where any new residential developments in the area (or other areas that have received significant recent city investment) either met a designated ratio of affordable units or paid a $1/sqft fee to the city fund. Which would focus on building and maintaining affordable housing for people making < 40% of Omaha's median income.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:02 pm

tpaine wrote:The opposition has requested empirical evidence that supports the proposed streetcar in Omaha, which we have easily provided (see above). In response, opponents refuse to even acknowledge the recent success of the comparable Kansas City streetcar line. Instead, the opposition relies on personal attacks against accredited sources, “fake news” cop-outs, and a random visit to Prague. If this is the best “evidence” the opposition can offer, our path forward is clear. We should build the Omaha streetcar. :yes:



Lets look at this part of your "Fake News" in particular........

"This in-depth study estimates that the proposed Omaha streetcar will have an economic impact of over $1.6 billion in development, create 16,716 new jobs, and generate $70.4 million in state and local tax collections – all within the first two years. Within five years, the rate of return for our city’s investment is projected to multiply to over $364 million in new tax revenue with an economic impact of over $8.7 billion."


This is the same Ernie Goss that was spewing the absolute insane nonsense that if we built a new convention center we would be making unimaginable mega millions off all the Conventioneers that would be racing to Omaha to hold their conventions. Same Ernie Goss that was talking some kind of sheer nonsense about that new baseball stadium bringing in millions and millions. Were talking about that baseball stadium that is always empty in a dead end of town next to that convention center that hardly any conventions really ever come too. This day and age the new word for what Ernie talks is Fake News....200 years ago when the Indians were in charge here they would of probably said that Ernie speaks with the "Forked Tongue."

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby buildomaha » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:25 pm

Dundeemaha wrote:
jessep28 wrote:
Dundeemaha wrote:The idea isn't to recoup the money in ridership fees, just like we don't recoup the money for city streets in tolls. The idea is to recoup it in taxes from the economic development that it encourages.


Which will likely be largely subsidized by taxpayers with tax increment financing.


Agreed: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4379&p=269477&hilit=TIF#p269477

In my wildest dreams the city would establish an affordable housing fund where any new residential developments in the area (or other areas that have received significant recent city investment) either met a designated ratio of affordable units or paid a $1/sqft fee to the city fund. Which would focus on building and maintaining affordable housing for people making < 40% of Omaha's median income.

Or rather than providing people with housing so that they have even less incentive to get a job, we should keep trying to create jobs so those people can work to provide for themselves rather than surviving off of a housing fund paid for by the taxpayers.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dundeemaha » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:34 pm

buildomaha wrote:
Dundeemaha wrote:
jessep28 wrote:
Dundeemaha wrote:The idea isn't to recoup the money in ridership fees, just like we don't recoup the money for city streets in tolls. The idea is to recoup it in taxes from the economic development that it encourages.


Which will likely be largely subsidized by taxpayers with tax increment financing.


Agreed: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4379&p=269477&hilit=TIF#p269477

In my wildest dreams the city would establish an affordable housing fund where any new residential developments in the area (or other areas that have received significant recent city investment) either met a designated ratio of affordable units or paid a $1/sqft fee to the city fund. Which would focus on building and maintaining affordable housing for people making < 40% of Omaha's median income.

Or rather than providing people with housing so that they have even less incentive to get a job, we should keep trying to create jobs so those people can work to provide for themselves rather than surviving off of a housing fund paid for by the taxpayers.


Pretty ignorant post but also a straw man. If you're going to quote me at least get what I said right.

I never said provide housing I said affordable housing.

The city builds "transportation" infrastructure if successful increasing property values and rents driving out existing residents who rely on transit.

Limiting opportunity for low income earners who now have longer commutes in less transit served neighborhoods.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Athomsfere » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:11 am

A few random thoughts.

Ernie Goss: I have no idea how far or close his estimates were but between the Convention Center, Pedestrian Bridge, TD Ameritrade ballpark.

CWS attendance is still up from Rosenblatt, and it is used by Creighton for less visible games.

The area is bustling if you walk or ride the river front / bridge.

There are new developments in the area (apartments, dining)

Olympic Swim trials, and the CenturyLink calendar shows there are constant events there. Just randomly drive by there a few times in the evening and you'll likely see thousands walking to or from the center (I have).

I don't know what Ernie promised, but the vision is working for the city. Maybe fell short. But slowly it is moving north.

Flight numbers are up too. Omaha is doing some things very right to be hitting above it's weight class and earn a name for itself.

What we don't want is to become Austin, or Los Angeles.

Austin Outgrew it's infrastructure and never really took a chance to get ahead of it. LA kept trying to build more freeway and HOV lanes for single occupant commuters.

Omaha is growing at a good rate. We need to get ahead of the ~11-12% / decade growth where we are still seeing infill projects, redevelopment etc. People who live, work and relax in the DT, midtown and nearby bergs is becoming a reality. It should be encouraged too. If I could live downtown, catch a train to work or for dinner I absolutely would!

And yes, I mean a train. Or a streetcar, or something permanent on rails. For me and a lot of people a bus just isn't the same. Maybe I need a reason to give them another try, maybe it's just a stigmatization that I've fallen to believe. Maybe they historically aren't reliable enough in smaller metros. I've written to long already to try to get into it.

And finally. Let's stop with "fake news" unless it's really fake news. We already have an idiot in the whitehouse who thinks that's his get out of jail free card everytime he doesn't like something. We don't need red herring arguments to distract us from the conversation. If the targets were missed use specifics. If they were off, offer numbers. If they are tertiary factoids that merely circle the drain of a bigger point, let's focus on that.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:27 pm

Athomsfere wrote:A few random thoughts.

Ernie Goss: I have no idea how far or close his estimates were but between the Convention Center, Pedestrian Bridge, TD Ameritrade ballpark.

CWS attendance is still up from Rosenblatt, and it is used by Creighton for less visible games.

The area is bustling if you walk or ride the river front / bridge.

There are new developments in the area (apartments, dining)

Olympic Swim trials, and the CenturyLink calendar shows there are constant events there. Just randomly drive by there a few times in the evening and you'll likely see thousands walking to or from the center (I have).

I don't know what Ernie promised, but the vision is working for the city. Maybe fell short. But slowly it is moving north.

Flight numbers are up too. Omaha is doing some things very right to be hitting above it's weight class and earn a name for itself.

What we don't want is to become Austin, or Los Angeles.

Austin Outgrew it's infrastructure and never really took a chance to get ahead of it. LA kept trying to build more freeway and HOV lanes for single occupant commuters.

Omaha is growing at a good rate. We need to get ahead of the ~11-12% / decade growth where we are still seeing infill projects, redevelopment etc. People who live, work and relax in the DT, midtown and nearby bergs is becoming a reality. It should be encouraged too. If I could live downtown, catch a train to work or for dinner I absolutely would!

And yes, I mean a train. Or a streetcar, or something permanent on rails. For me and a lot of people a bus just isn't the same. Maybe I need a reason to give them another try, maybe it's just a stigmatization that I've fallen to believe. Maybe they historically aren't reliable enough in smaller metros. I've written to long already to try to get into it.

And finally. Let's stop with "fake news" unless it's really fake news. We already have an idiot in the whitehouse who thinks that's his get out of jail free card everytime he doesn't like something. We don't need red herring arguments to distract us from the conversation. If the targets were missed use specifics. If they were off, offer numbers. If they are tertiary factoids that merely circle the drain of a bigger point, let's focus on that.



I dont mean to rain on your StreetCar parade .....but right about now All of the politicians are running away from that Street Car idea like it was the Black Plague! I bet the polls are coming back showing the public strongly against the whole street Car thing and the Politicians are now pivoting away from it.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:19 pm

Let's do some math.

$150M minimum to build it. We get told that it will not be paid for by the taxpayers but instead by TIF. Never admitting that TIF simply moves tax revenue from MTC to this instead of all the other bills we pay. Meaning that these aren't going away and we get to pay more taxes to make up the TIF.

$7M per year in operating costs, minimum. Again, we get that bill.

So there is a lot of reasons that the other parts of town are increasingly done with this.

Stothert caught on first.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby iamjacobm » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:33 pm

Did she say if she supported making it a city wide vote or one that took place within a created TDD like KC did to build theirs?

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Athomsfere » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:19 am

bigredmed wrote:Let's do some math.

$150M minimum to build it. We get told that it will not be paid for by the taxpayers but instead by TIF. Never admitting that TIF simply moves tax revenue from MTC to this instead of all the other bills we pay. Meaning that these aren't going away and we get to pay more taxes to make up the TIF.

$7M per year in operating costs, minimum. Again, we get that bill.

So there is a lot of reasons that the other parts of town are increasingly done with this.

Stothert caught on first.


Didn't the 2050 group say they were going to pay for the development and not just defer it through TIF?

And at $7m operating budget, it's obviously a loss leader but I feel there are some real paths to success for real mass transit here. KC's is starting to sound like a success too.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:00 am

Athomsfere wrote:
bigredmed wrote:Let's do some math.

$150M minimum to build it. We get told that it will not be paid for by the taxpayers but instead by TIF. Never admitting that TIF simply moves tax revenue from MTC to this instead of all the other bills we pay. Meaning that these aren't going away and we get to pay more taxes to make up the TIF.

$7M per year in operating costs, minimum. Again, we get that bill.

So there is a lot of reasons that the other parts of town are increasingly done with this.

Stothert caught on first.


Didn't the 2050 group say they were going to pay for the development and not just defer it through TIF?

And at $7m operating budget, it's obviously a loss leader but I feel there are some real paths to success for real mass transit here. KC's is starting to sound like a success too.


Last I heard, the the project was TIF. Real mass transit has to go from where people are to where they want to go. You can't start at the edge of a medical school, and end at the edge of downtown.

Want support by the city? Start with a city wide plan with construction start dates, accurate cost figures, honest statements of who pays what, and a reasonable stepwise rollout of the system for the whole city.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Omaha_corn_burner » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:25 am

bigredmed wrote:accurate cost figures, honest statements of who pays what

Exactly.

Was there ever an actual cost assessment done? Where did the 150M estimate come from?

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby iamjacobm » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:33 am

We have been doing studies off and on since 05. This one on financing for this current version is supposed to be done in October.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby nebraska » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:00 am

Let's flip the route from Farnam to South 13th Street, and let the tourists pay!

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dusty » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:28 pm

I'm all for streetcars/ light rail in Omaha, but I'm against the Farnam St proposal. Terrible location with minimal economic gain. Developments are going up without it and I can't see a lot of ridership from UNMC to downtown. We need to stop pushing the streetcar idea for the purpose of making midtown/downtown hip or cool. We need to connect West Omaha with downtown as a way to reduce car dependency.

I suggest converting the Maple/Cumming St bus route to rail. Start with 72nd going east as phase one. As ridership increases, you can expand the line west as a phase 2. Or you can do the same concept with Center/Leavenworth.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:45 pm

Dusty wrote:I'm all for streetcars/ light rail in Omaha, but I'm against the Farnam St proposal. Terrible location with minimal economic gain. Developments are going up without it and I can't see a lot of ridership from UNMC to downtown. We need to stop pushing the streetcar idea for the purpose of making midtown/downtown hip or cool. We need to connect West Omaha with downtown as a way to reduce car dependency.

I suggest converting the Maple/Cumming St bus route to rail. Start with 72nd going east as phase one. As ridership increases, you can expand the line west as a phase 2. Or you can do the same concept with Center/Leavenworth.


Some nice artsy buses that circulate around midtown/downtown like the Orlando Convention Center bus circuit that connect to the rest of the bus system at both east and west ends would be great for that area and affordable to run even free like in Orlando.

Rail is over rated. I would rather see good buses with reliable routes that express from area of concentration to area of concentration without the every 100 yard stops like in east Omaha. This would mean that your commuter from 144th and Maple could get a route from that intersection and go to Benson, without stopping every 5 min and if the price and reliability were good, these commuters could easily be better off than with a car.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dusty » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:45 pm

To address to complaints of cost of streetcar and maintenance...

People seem to think driving on roads are free so why would a streetcar make sense. How much revenue does the Dodge expressway bring in?...$0. If you take away government money, we could better see the actual cost of transportation. If citizens had to pay for all their own, you would see tolls roads all over, cost to pay for garage/surface parking all over, or possibly a charge per mile to pay for the costs of driving. We need to look at it with realistic comparisons instead of "Driving is free, while streetcar cost money."

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dusty » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:04 pm

bigredmed wrote:Some nice artsy buses that circulate around midtown/downtown like the Orlando Convention Center bus circuit that connect to the rest of the bus system at both east and west ends would be great for that area and affordable to run even free like in Orlando.

Rail is over rated. I would rather see good buses with reliable routes that express from area of concentration to area of concentration without the every 100 yard stops like in east Omaha. This would mean that your commuter from 144th and Maple could get a route from that intersection and go to Benson, without stopping every 5 min and if the price and reliability were good, these commuters could easily be better off than with a car.


I agree if we could improve our buses routes, rail will not be necessary. It would be cheaper way of connecting the city, but still giving options to go car-free. Unfortunately, Metro Bus builds their routes based on the destinations to want you to visit like Westroads Mall. Instead, they need to build the routes off the major corridors to connect the city and build the destinations around the routes.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dusty » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:08 pm

nebraska wrote:Let's flip the route from Farnam to South 13th Street, and let the tourists pay!


How about using a double decker bus for 13th st? It gives off a tourist vibe, but cheaper than rail.


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