Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Trains, Planes, and Automobiles (and Streetcars!).

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Busguy2010
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:54 pm

I still want to see how receptive people would be to giving one lane of Dodge to the BRT. Have the westbound curb lane be BRT and right turn only at all times except for the am rush. During the am rush have the eastbound curb lane be bus and right turn only. Then give both curb lanes of West Dodge to bus and right turns at all times. I don't think that would fly, but wow, if we wouldn't be willing to do even that, then there is probably no real future for functional transit in Omaha.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dundeemaha » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:15 pm

As Dusty mentioned this area is already seeing a spike in investment.

Lets bump Metro's budget by 25%-30% (roughly the annual operating expenses of the streetcar proposal) and connect North Omaha and South Omaha to West Omaha's retail jobs and offices.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby tpaine » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:18 pm

More recent news about the overwhelming success Kansas City is having with their streetcar line. Kansas City is adding two more streetcars after ridership nearly tripled initial projections--now averaging 5,000 riders daily--and spurring over $1.8 billion in private development. Excited to see how Omaha's proposed streetcar will similarly benefit our city's future.

http://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/kc- ... o-new-cars

http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics ... 07659.html

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dundeemaha » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:48 pm

How much of the 1.8 billion that is credited to the streetcar would have happened without it, and in Omaha are we choosing a route that maximizes development potential? Or are we incentivizing an area that was going to see significant development regardless?

If we embrace the street car as the development incentive that it is rather than the mass transit boondoggle that it could also be. We could come up with a more valuable route and better funding than user fees and transportation dollars.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Omaha_corn_burner » Fri May 12, 2017 3:08 pm

So what's next? We just wait for the mayor's office to announce something?

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby iamjacobm » Fri May 12, 2017 3:12 pm

The current study gets released in October if I remember correctly.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Coyote » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:10 pm

Talked with Hal Daub this morning and he said that the backbone line will be from the Clink to Farnam and the past Saddle Creek. Finances are coming along...
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:03 pm

Coyote wrote:Talked with Hal Daub this morning and he said that the backbone line will be from the Clink to Farnam and the past Saddle Creek. Finances are coming along...


I don't want Hal to send some of his boys out to give me a tune up so I will say this is in secret code. AKEFAY EWSNAY!

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby MTO » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:51 pm

iamjacobm wrote:The current study gets released in October if I remember correctly.


But by then it’ll be time for another study..
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Omaha Cowboy » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:29 pm

MTO wrote:
iamjacobm wrote:The current study gets released in October if I remember correctly.


But by then it’ll be time for another study..


There is a goodly amount of validity to your comment here Jake.. We've had, what, 18,000 "studies" on the viability of street cars/light rail for Omaha over the past dozen years..

Either do it.. Or don't.. And let's move on..

The city/metro has more important fish to fry beyond light rail...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby buildomaha » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:52 pm

I thought this was very interesting.
https://youtu.be/jR2Afhd6gWY

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:24 pm

I've been preaching this stuff for years. There are so many neighborhoods that we already love that would be now be twice as good if we had a light rail system. All these empty lots downtown, Crossroads, Old Mill, Village Pointe, all would be developed by now and certainly more robust. A streetcar might help out some, but only about half as much as a light rail system.

What can I say, I've been talking about it for almost 10 years, spoke to city officials, attended nearly all the transit workshops and shared all my ideas and we are only just now getting a BRT line and maybe a streetcar in 5 years. All the responses I've gotten are summarized by "We admire your vision and enthusiasm, but we are currently not exploring the idea of light rail".

I am not holing my breath on it.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby buildomaha » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:08 pm

Omaha is definitely not large enough or dense enough support light rail. The streetcar is the best we can ask for right now and I think it would be a great start.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby TitosBuritoBarn » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:27 pm

buildomaha wrote:Omaha is definitely not large enough or dense enough support light rail. The streetcar is the best we can ask for right now and I think it would be a great start.


We're big enough for a light rail. It's the density we lack.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Dundeemaha » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:52 pm

I'd much rather have 5 BRT lines than 1 streetcar which is probably about the equivalent cost.

But I'd happily trade those 5 BRT lines for 1 light rail with dedicated right of way.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed1 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:43 pm

Dundeemaha wrote:I'd much rather have 5 BRT lines than 1 streetcar which is probably about the equivalent cost.

But I'd happily trade those 5 BRT lines for 1 light rail with dedicated right of way.


3 BRT lines east and west, and 3 north and south. Center or L, Dodge, and Maple streets. Nodes at locations that are scattered across the city and interlock (204th and Dodge, not Center or Maple, then 196th and Center, and then 156th and Maple and stitch these across the city. Add loop route buses that would link to two of the BRT nodes but stay in a sector of the city (Elkhorn, NW Omaha, West Central Omaha, Millard West, Millard East, etc). Add in park and ride locations at the BRT nodes for direct access and at key spots in loop routes. We could get a really nice transit system going for much less disruption that either streetcars or light rail would involve.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby buildomaha » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:51 pm

That sounds like a great idea. The main concern for investing in public transport in the suburbs is the lack of utilization that would exist.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed1 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:32 pm

buildomaha wrote:That sounds like a great idea. The main concern for investing in public transport in the suburbs is the lack of utilization that would exist.


The problem with conventional buses is that they don't go anywhere in a manner that is useful. This system would allow organic circuits to develop. I can use the local bus to go to the bank or drycleaners OR connect to one or more BRTs to go distant points. Assuming the BRTs are on time and the intersections between the BRTs are well designed, this system could be very useful and popular.

Next, you keep underestimating the intensity of the irritation people have to being treated like a battery. When 2/3 of the city gets nothing more than a tax bill for a service, you get people who start feeling like AAA is stamped on them somewhere. They vote to reduce this. By having these go from river to river and from Sarpy Co. to Dutch Hall road, you reduce the automatic ill-will factor.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:41 pm

I still question how effective our first BRT route will be, given it will be running in mixed traffic nearly the whole way. Also they will still need to run Route 2 every now and then for those unable to walk the half to one mile between the stops. If I understood it correctly, the BRT is on a separate operating budget, so hopefully they plan on using that money saved from Route 2 and allocate it to other areas of the system.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby cdub » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:30 pm

bigredmed1 wrote:
buildomaha wrote:That sounds like a great idea. The main concern for investing in public transport in the suburbs is the lack of utilization that would exist.


The problem with conventional buses is that they don't go anywhere in a manner that is useful. This system would allow organic circuits to develop. I can use the local bus to go to the bank or drycleaners OR connect to one or more BRTs to go distant points. Assuming the BRTs are on time and the intersections between the BRTs are well designed, this system could be very useful and popular.

Next, you keep underestimating the intensity of the irritation people have to being treated like a battery. When 2/3 of the city gets nothing more than a tax bill for a service, you get people who start feeling like AAA is stamped on them somewhere. They vote to reduce this. By having these go from river to river and from Sarpy Co. to Dutch Hall road, you reduce the automatic ill-will factor.


So take a system thats already struggled to make a go, is finally trying new things and burden it with 20x the cost all to please suburbanites who don't ride now and will likely still not? Sounds good. Reminds me of an old car talk article when a guy asked about buying a second truck just to avoid too much wear and tear on his first... Omaha leadership would be wise to continue the path of utilizing all its available resources to make the core as strong as it can.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Stargazer » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:59 pm

Technically, our urbanized area is more dense than Kansas City's... it just happens to have half the population.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby omahahawk » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:49 am

Isn't there another (and hopefully final) study about streetcars due out this month. Makes me wonder what will happen because with both Jean Stothert and Heath Mello I kind of got the sense that if the powers that be want it, it will happen....kind of in the same way TD stadium did. Guess time will tell but maybe we will learn more soon.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby choke » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:34 pm

New website for Omaha backers of the streetcar proposal:


https://modernstreetcaradvocates.org/

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Omaha Cowboy » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:50 pm

Omaha Cowboy wrote:
MTO wrote:
iamjacobm wrote:The current study gets released in October if I remember correctly.


But by then it’ll be time for another study..


There is a goodly amount of validity to your comment here Jake.. We've had, what, 18,000 "studies" on the viability of street cars/light rail for Omaha over the past dozen years..

Either do it.. Or don't.. And let's move on..

Ciao..LiO...Peace


See my comment responding to MTO just this past June..

In reading the W-H piece regarding this latest “dust up” for light rail, we see that word appear again- another “study” ..then after that another “study”.. Sheesh :roll: ..

Look, I’m not against light rail for Omaha and happen to believe it would be an enhancement for the downtown/midtown city core.. But more costly “studies”?? It seems to me, that the light rail concept connecting dowtown to midtown has been “studied” 18,000 ways to Sunday..

In the end, I come back to- either do it or don’t.. But for Heavens sake, don’t give me another “study”.. Give me a tangible, workable plan.. THEN, give me a reasonable timetable for ACTION...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby skinzfan23 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:15 pm

Maybe we should have a study to see if another study is necessary.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Padre » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:57 pm

skinzfan23 wrote:Maybe we should have a study to see if another study is necessary.


A study study?

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby GrandpaaSmucker » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:45 pm

This streetcar study that they speak of is what is known as a "FAKE STUDY." .............. I guess you could sort of look at the FAKE STUDY as the illegitimate child of FAKE NEWS.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby daveoma » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:00 am

It's interesting to me that Hal Daub didn't add his name. I also notice that many of these companies are development or real estate companies. Naturally they stand to benefit from a light rail in the area. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just making an observation.

I'm beginning to rethink this whole streetcar thing. In light of all of the changes in transportation like electric vehicles and self driving cars, does it still make sense to invest in something like this? Will streetcars be obsolete in 10-20 years?

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby bigredmed1 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:39 am

daveoma wrote:It's interesting to me that Hal Daub didn't add his name. I also notice that many of these companies are development or real estate companies. Naturally they stand to benefit from a light rail in the area. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just making an observation.

I'm beginning to rethink this whole streetcar thing. In light of all of the changes in transportation like electric vehicles and self driving cars, does it still make sense to invest in something like this? Will streetcars be obsolete in 10-20 years?


The various streetcar proposals have always been designed to benefit developers. This one may be more nakedly so, but the last one that went from downtown to UNMC right through MTC and the Blackstone area (both of which have some of the best bus service in Omaha and yet needed a streetcar), but went nowhere where icky poor people who might use the streetcar to take their kids to the doctor might use it.

Frankly they are obsolete now. Electric cars for urban shuttles may be a thing, but till battery charger technology can develop to the point where it can compete with the gas pump, probably not a market changer for people who actually drive their cars a lot or drive into areas where charger stations are not readily available.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby TitosBuritoBarn » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:15 am

Unless the city realizes that the streetcar needs its own dedicated lanes, forget it. Build a second BRT line instead
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Uffda » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:11 pm

After all these years of being on this forum, I am still not sold on a streetcar and especially in the limited area that keeps being proposed. I would much rather see Omaha build a long rang plan and have Park n Ride system of busses and rail like Denver has built up over the past 30+ years.

The mass transit system should have been updated years ago but it seems to have been the "poor relation" to the rest of Omaha's improvements - such as arenas, theaters and stadiums.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Bomaha » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:38 pm

I found this within the website. It's the Closing the Gap Initiative by MAPA. Honestly, the final transit overview isn't far off from a dream system I want some 40+ years from now.

CTG Initiative
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_QGDe ... VHN0E/view

Mine: (haven't tweaked it in over a year, etc.) Again a dream, and transit modes would change, of course.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Coyote » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:51 pm

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:50 pm

I remember when I had all these same ideas but without the cool official PDF and website to post them on.

The only study I keep any hope in is the Central Omaha Alternative Analysis. THAT is the one that matters and is producing the BRT route and possibly the streetcar route.

Again, cool ideas. I always like to throw my dreams out there now and then... But anybody who uses the term "streetcar/light rail" loses all credibility in my opinion. Do you want a streetcar or light rail? Two totally different things. A lot of these ideas come down to a matter of available space. i.e. the only possible way you could have light rail on Dodge or Center is to drastically reduce the lanes (from five down to two) AND close off access to a countless number of neighborhood streets. Not gonna happen. Or elevate it or put it under ground... Not gonna happen. The only way we'd get true dedicated right of way light rail is if we took up some current heavy railroad right of way.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Garrett » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:35 pm

Busguy2010 wrote:I remember when I had all these same ideas but without the cool official PDF and website to post them on.

The only study I keep any hope in is the Central Omaha Alternative Analysis. THAT is the one that matters and is producing the BRT route and possibly the streetcar route.

Again, cool ideas. I always like to throw my dreams out there now and then... But anybody who uses the term "streetcar/light rail" loses all credibility in my opinion. Do you want a streetcar or light rail? Two totally different things. A lot of these ideas come down to a matter of available space. i.e. the only possible way you could have light rail on Dodge or Center is to drastically reduce the lanes (from five down to two) AND close off access to a countless number of neighborhood streets. Not gonna happen. Or elevate it or put it under ground... Not gonna happen. The only way we'd get true dedicated right of way light rail is if we took up some current heavy railroad right of way.


Streetcar and Light Rail aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. It can be a streetcar in the core area, running along city streets, and then shift into a separated light rail system further out. SF's MUNI Metro System does this, as does Minneapolis's streetcar I believe.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Busguy2010 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:36 pm

Garrett wrote:Streetcar and Light Rail aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. It can be a streetcar in the core area, running along city streets, and then shift into a separated light rail system further out. SF's MUNI Metro System does this, as does Minneapolis's streetcar I believe.


I understand some systems do it, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Could you imagine cruising from 168th and Center to Aksarben, only to crawl along in mixed traffic from there to downtown? That just makes no sense. The truly effective systems are strictly separate from automobile traffic. I make an exception for Minneapolis and Portland because they travel in mixed traffic only for a short distance and in downtown.

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Omaha Cowboy » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:19 pm

Padre wrote:
skinzfan23 wrote:Maybe we should have a study to see if another study is necessary.


A study study?


Akin to “Double secret probation”.. Translation: More light rail pipe dreams...

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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Coyote » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:40 am

Front page this morning:

Kansas City's streetcar, which began service in 2016, is considered a success. Could it work in Omaha?

Like Kansas City, cities across the nation are trying to go back to the future with a streetcar. Omaha is among cities considering the idea, though not everyone here is convinced that the investment of millions of dollars would pay off.
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Omaha Cowboy » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:24 am

Coyote wrote:Front page this morning:

Kansas City's streetcar, which began service in 2016, is considered a success. Could it work in Omaha?

Like Kansas City, cities across the nation are trying to go back to the future with a streetcar. Omaha is among cities considering the idea, though not everyone here is convinced that the investment of millions of dollars would pay off.


Other than putting us in our place by telling us, several times, that “of course” Kansas City is bigger than Omaha.. What else is new on the street cars in Omaha front really?..

From the W-H piece:

“In Omaha, the streetcar is far from a done deal. No formal plan has been proposed to the City Council or the public. A consultant is working on a federally subsidized engineering and cost study for the City of Omaha and Metro transit agency.

A report is expected by the end of December. It’s expected to update and provide more detail to a previous cost estimate of $156 million to build a downtown-midtown streetcar line, and $7.5 million a year to operate it. Omaha Mayor Jean Stothert has said the city’s next steps will depend on that report.”..

Since 2004, this must be the 18,365th “study” regarding the potential for street cars in Omaha.. Once the city analyzes that study after the first of the year, they’ll probably require an additional “study” to analyze that “study”.. and the BS goes on and on..

Yes, I am jaded regarding this issue. Yes, I still feel street cars are a viable transportation option for Omaha.. But do I feel it will happen in our lifetimes? I don’t need a “study” to provide my answer- NO...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
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Re: Official: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Postby Coyote » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:35 am

I didn't know why this deserved to be front page news for the Sunday Paper...
Other than comparing Kansas City and Cincinnati , this 2.5 page headline doesn't give us any News.
Unless I missed something.
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