Official: Omaha Light Rail Discussion

[riceweb]

I thought I'd create a new thread for all of our light rail designs. We've done this for highway design, but now let's see what everyone wants out of a rail/subway system.

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[Brad]

The idea is good, however the hills in Omaha might not work with your plan.  We really don't need very many lines, just lots of park and ride stations.

[Coyote]

I was going to say the same as Brad. We would need plenty of parking space for park and rides to make this system work. So any details would have to keep this in mind.

[guy4omaha]

Yeah, if there were better or more park and ride locations, I would be riding the bus downtown instead of pouring all those gasoline dollars out of my wallet.

[riceweb]

From what I understand, Seattle has been able to (though with a cost) get around the issue of hills, and lines down Dodge-Broadway and along the river (Eppley-Bellevue) would not have much to worry about outside of right of way.

The backwards-C-shaped line is the only one, as I can presently see, that would likely require extensive negotiation around hills. However, it's also the line that I feel is most crucial in building a light-rail system that accommodates those without vehicles and also those in the SW suburbs (there are environmentalists and the younger crowd out that way that likes to party like a rockstar and to still be able to get home even if a bit under the table).

In any event, surely it seems to me that the following locations demand a stop by a form of mass transit:
- Eppley Airfield
- Rosenblatt Stadium
- Offut AFB / Bellevue
- Downtown Omaha / Qwest Center / Old Market
- Downtown Council Bluffs
- The Casinos / Mid-America Center

Then several lines out to the suburbs would be necessary to connect the typical Omahan or tourist with one of the above destinations. I do not believe that Omaha would readily adopt a light-rail system unless it very nearly stops at their front door, so I've approached the idea planning for many lines present and future, though I'd like to hear what the rest of you think.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

You can cross Rosenblatt off that list and replace it with the Zoo.

And I don't think a connection to the CB casinos is at all necessary, nor do I think it will ever happen.

[Brad]

And I don't think a connection to the CB casinos is at all necessary, nor do I think it will ever happen.

I bet that if Omaha had a light rail, the Casinos would pay for the entire Iowa side of the system if they could be tied in to it.

[Scuzz]

And I don't think a connection to the CB casinos is at all necessary, nor do I think it will ever happen.

I bet that if Omaha had a light rail, the Casinos would pay for the entire Iowa side of the system if they could be tied in to it.

[justify][right]

I agree with you 100% Brad.  I have always thought the same thing - heck, they may even pay for a good portion of the Omaha line (to the airport at least).[/right][/justify]

[icejammer]

. . .heck, they may even pay for a good portion of the Omaha line (to the airport at least).

Hmmm, maybe....but first I think the State of Nebraska would have to repeal state law that makes it illegal to mention anything out of state in promotional materials...

[StreetsOfOmaha]

And I don't think a connection to the CB casinos is at all necessary, nor do I think it will ever happen.

I bet that if Omaha had a light rail, the Casinos would pay for the entire Iowa side of the system if they could be tied in to it.

That would be awesome.

[Historic Omaha]

I think that the major hub should be the Vortex Tower.  That would be awesome; they should serve "Git-R-Done" beer in the Vortex Tower.

[omaja]

A dream:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8& ... &z=11&om=1

[Omababe]

Are you guys aware of the group who runs this site?

http://www.omahastreetcar.com/

It's not very active, but I admit they have a few good ideas, mainly a downtown north-south line.

I would be very much in favor of things like this, but I really question the practicality. Let's face it, Omaha's population is not that dense, and the culture here is so much into the private automobile.

[OmahaJaysCU]

Are you guys aware of the group who runs this site?

http://www.omahastreetcar.com/

It's not very active, but I admit they have a few good ideas, mainly a downtown north-south line.

I would be very much in favor of things like this, but I really question the practicality. Let's face it, Omaha's population is not that dense, and the culture here is so much into the private automobile.

Disagree, Omaha is one of the densest cities in the county, something like in the top 30.

[riceweb]

And a light-rail/subway system pays all kinds of dividends. It provides cleaner air and economic opportunities for the lower and middle classes no longer compelled to own vehicles, and it also offers tourists a simple, motor-free way of getting around town (and to the casinos).

[omaja]

Well, not only that, but you can't expect people to be public transit fanatics when the MAT bus system isn't very efficient or very accessible to a great number of people in West Omaha.  Give them something that works and I bet you would see more and more people (even suburbanites!) giving up their cars.  Perhaps not entirely, but anything would be an improvement  For instance, which would be more cost-effective for someone in Elkhorn: driving their gas-guzzling SUV the more than 15 miles to downtown, or ride a light rail line down Dodge for $1.50 or so?  It would make sense for more people if it existed.  Like the saying goes, if you build it...

[Minneapolis Boy]

Right on! I'm a suburbanite and I would ride an efficient and reliable light-rail train downtown, etc. I would love the option of not having to drive everywhere.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Are you guys aware of the group who runs this site?

http://www.omahastreetcar.com/

It's not very active, but I admit they have a few good ideas, mainly a downtown north-south line.

I would be very much in favor of things like this, but I really question the practicality. Let's face it, Omaha's population is not that dense, and the culture here is so much into the private automobile.

Disagree, Omaha is one of the densest cities in the county, something like in the top 30.

Haha, yeah.  "let's face" what?  You're completely wrong (omababe).  Omaha is VERY dense and urban, ESPECIALLY for it's metro population.  And the density and urbanity continue to increase.  A light rail system makes COMPLETE sense, and the status-quo sentiment of Omaha being a "car city" is rapidly becoming antiquated.

I've been paying close attention to public transit ridership in Omaha for years now, and I can say that it is at its highest ever.  Where two or three years ago, buses seemed to be running around completely empty, now they seem to be almost always over half full, usually about 2/3 full, at least on the major routes that I see everyday.

[almighty_tuna]

Are you guys aware of the group who runs this site?

http://www.omahastreetcar.com/

It's not very active, but I admit they have a few good ideas, mainly a downtown north-south line.

I would be very much in favor of things like this, but I really question the practicality. Let's face it, Omaha's population is not that dense, and the culture here is so much into the private automobile.

I'm quite familiar with the group who runs that site!  I'm part of it!  We meet every Thursday informally with official board meetings on the last Thursday of every month and would love to have you there.  The location is usually announced Tuesday or Wednesday in the forum section of the site.  If you join as a member (yes, it's free) you will get a weekly email to that effect so you don't have to look it up!

Expand on your view of practicality, if you would.  Many of the dissenting opinions we hear are along those lines and I'm often up for a good discussion.

Adam

[StreetsOfOmaha]

And I CO-FOUNDED it.  :D

[RoadWarrior]

I just posted over in the Beltway thread http://eomahaforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 2&start=60, but I thought I'd create a new thread for all of our light rail designs. We've done this for highway design, but now let's see what everyone wants out of a rail/subway system.

I'll start!



Full size available here: http://www.d1039066.dotsterhost.com/Loo ... Future.png

I like your map, but instead of the Dodge St route hacking its way through Dundee I would prefer to see it head south along Saddle Creek to Center, then west along Center to Aksarben Village, wind through Ak Village, the UNO south and north campuses, then return to Dodge St to continue heading west.

[Hellenistic Kshatriya]

I just posted over in the Beltway thread http://eomahaforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 2&start=60, but I thought I'd create a new thread for all of our light rail designs. We've done this for highway design, but now let's see what everyone wants out of a rail/subway system.

I'll start!



Full size available here: http://www.d1039066.dotsterhost.com/Loo ... Future.png

I like your map, but instead of the Dodge St route hacking its way through Dundee I would prefer to see it head south along Saddle Creek to Center, then west along Center to Aksarben Village, wind through Ak Village, the UNO south and north campuses, then return to Dodge St to continue heading west.

Nice thought.  Sure would solve UNO's parking and shuttle bus problems .

[Brad]

Ok, I finally got around to designing my light rail system....



I tried to pick roads with wide medians and not a lot of existing bridges to mess with, under utilized wide roads in older parts of town, small roads that need to be widened, and a couple of spots that just need a boost.  Red Circles are Park and Ride Stations, obviously not a lot of parking at some locations like UNO where where it would be more of a destination station and less of an origination station like you would have out west.  The green circles are park and ride stations that would also serve as future expansion areas.

I propose at minor crossings be eliminated or have just the standard gates, however at the major crossings, a bridge structure similar to this sketch, its totally out of scale but the LT Rail would go over the top of the existing intersection:

[omaja]

My system is similar to Brad's, mine just has a few less dots to connect. ;)

[RoadWarrior]

Nice ideas, Brad and omaja.

Might need to address the issue of density... if you take a look at the number of lines you have, they are much closer to each other than the lines in cities such as Chicago, Dallas, and St. Louis.  Is it reasonable to predict that Omaha will eventually have a dense enough population to support that many light rail lines?  (I hope so, but I'm doubtful.)

Brad, if I may add my two cents worth to your design... I'd consider "connecting the dots" between 52nd and I-680 by extending your line along Maple Street.  The idea here is to provide a direct route with the intent of attracting NW O commuters who work downtown.   Can you see a nice mixed-use park-and-ride center as the western terminus serving the Elkhorn/Bennington/Waterloo area?  Think Village Pointe plus park-and-ride.  Maybe something similar to Union Station in St. Louis?  Now that there's a new mall in Papillion, isn't it time to build one in the far-northwestern corner of the metro?

It'd also be neat if there would be a way to work the spur line going north from I-80 and 60th into a loop with the I-480/13th street line.  With any luck, you'd be able to have a UNO-Creighton-MetroCC South Campus loop line.

[Brad]

Thanks!

One thing I forgot to mention was that my system is lacking in downtown and Midtown because it was meant to compliment the current street car proposals.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

I noticed that, Brad.  In fact, it seems like your system pretty much just follows the current interstate/highway system, with a few random arm-like extensions, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...

[Brad]

I was in Denver and their new extension was built in the median, which seemed like a good place to avoid pissing off neighbors to the line, as there are not a lot of neighbors.  It also would reduce the right-of-way needed for the system.  My Idea for the need of a light rail is to get cars off the street for traffic and environmental reasons.  It might be easier to convince people to take the rail if they can see it goes the same way they do.  I think the most Omahans see the light rail as an unnecessary waste of money,  If we start building these extravagant lines the tear apart neighborhoods, it is going to be a bigger uphill fight.

The only really "random arm" is the one that follows the path of the old Chicago Northwestern Line along the creek up to Aksarben, then I had it veer off through Elmwood park/UNO over to the northeastern edge of Memorial Park to serve Dundee.

There is an Arm along the North West Radial to serve Benson and a short branch along 72nd street to serve Ralston.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

I was in Denver and their new extension was built in the median, which seemed like a good place to avoid pissing off neighbors to the line, as there are not a lot of neighbors.  It also would reduce the right-of-way needed for the system.  My Idea for the need of a light rail is to get cars off the street for traffic and environmental reasons.  It might be easier to convince people to take the rail if they can see it goes the same way they do.  I think the most Omahans see the light rail as an unnecessary waste of money,  If we start building these extravagant lines the tear apart neighborhoods, it is going to be a bigger uphill fight.

The only really "random arm" is the one that follows the path of the old Chicago Northwestern Line along the creek up to Aksarben, then I had it veer off through Elmwood park/UNO over to the northeastern edge of Memorial Park to serve Dundee.

There is an Arm along the North West Radial to serve Benson and a short branch along 72nd street to serve Ralston.

Fare enough.

It's just not what I would do.

[Brad]

It's just not what I would do.

You have you logic and I have mine as long as they are both good ideas, its all good.

[Zephyr]

One thing to keep in mind is that light rail built along interstates automatically jacks the price up about twice as much because of having to deal with interchanges, shoulders, etc.  For example, the Southeast Line in Denver was about $40 million/mile compared to the average cost of $20-25 million on previous corridors.

Here is my most recent plan, although I am biased in this one because I designed it to flow with my model railroad layout plan.  I wanted to have a Bellevue Station terminating on the Rock Island line with service to downtown and the airport.  I also thought it would be good to have some park-n-Rides along I-80, so this is what I came up with:



Here's a detail of the Bellevue Station, showing both freight and light rail tracks:

[StreetsOfOmaha]

I like that a lot, Eric.

[Erik]

I like it too, great job!  :D

[omaja]

Extend the red line to Oak View (with stations at 108th, 120th, 132nd, and Oak View) as part of the start up, and I think we have a winner.  :D

[Zephyr]

I've been thinking a lot about the downtown alignment for my basic system plan, and this is what I have come up with thus far:



At first, I was thinking of just running the trains down 16th Street, but this would be difficult because of the DoubleTree Hotel and the fact that the streetcar plan would run down 16th for 3 blocks.  Then I thought about operations and that I would like to run more trains during the AM and PM peak hours than midday and evening service, so it would be nice to have a downtown loop where trains could be turned around because there probably does not need to be such frequent service all the way to the airport.

The "loop" would run "contra-flow" trains down 14th and 15th Streets, which is a good compromise among the government sector, financial district, and Old Market area.  The opposite running trains basically create a 2-way street, which is safer for street traffic because drivers can see on-coming trains before turning left or right, which is important for the faster and longer trains that light rail would have versus streetcars.

This would also permit 15-minute headways from downtown to the airport all day, 5-minute headways around the loop during rush hours, 10-minute headways on each line (Red and Blue) to downtown during the rush hours, and 30-minute headways on each line on other times.

Anywho, let me know what you think about this alignment and the station spacing.

[Brad]

looks Good Zephyr!

[UNOstudent]

Interesting article from MinnPost on Utah's proactive view on transit compared to what's going on in Minneapolis/St. Paul area.

http://www.minnpost.com/steveberg/

The Utah approach doesn't sound like something a truly conservative business community should follow, someone suggested. Isn't business supposed to oppose all taxes all the time?

Beattie seemed amused by the observation. There was an obvious need to act sooner rather than later, he said, before auto congestion got completely out of hand, before air pollution further damaged Utah's public health and its tourist economy. He mentioned the rising price of gasoline and the soaring cost of construction. Given those realities, he said it seemed prudent to offer an alternative to driving as quickly as possible. "If you get behind, it hurts you economically," he said. "We looked at the problem ... and applied business principles." The campaign's theme was essentially; "We can fix it now or fix it later," he said, and fixing it now made more sense.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

They make some great points in that article.

I wish our state leaders would get a clue.

[the1wags]

Exactly. I'm not going to say we have bad traffic compared to larger metros like Houston or Chicago etc, but I RARELY drive during rush hour anymore. I did so a week or two ago and was taken back by how busy the interstate was. I actually sat in traffic a couple times (I'm not complaining, just observing). I know that this is mainly a half hour phenomenon in Omaha but our interstate is already widened out and things aren't going to get any better as we grow. It's past time to start thinking about transportation alternatives around here.

I'd love to see a couple big park and ride garages at say... Oakview and the area formerly known as Elkhorn with commuter rail to downtown on the UP tracks.

[Swift]

If you can tie road funds to the drinking age and BAC levels, why not tie it to light rail infrastructure as well?  I think those of us under 40 will live long enough to see this become a major financial crisis.  Wait until events like the bridge collapse in Minneapolis are common place.  

-Big E

Because there is no all powerful LRT lobby to pump money into political campaigns to get their people elected....unlike there is for big oil and the automotive industry.

Follow the money...