Iowa Passanger Rail

Trains, Planes, and Automobiles (and Streetcars!).

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Brad
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Post by Brad »

I have a Google Earth plug in I have been working on for a few years.  When complete it will show all the railroad lines that ever existed in Eastern Nebraska and Western Iowa.  I would venture to guess that less than 10% of the rail that was around in the 1920 still in existence.  Its too bad some of that is still not around to be used for passenger rail service!  

If you want to see the map, send me an email brad at bradwilliamsphotography.com

A little off topic, but there was a line that circled Omaha in the UNMC area, and also a line that circled Omaha in the 90th street area.  Both loops made a complete circle ending up in downtown Omaha!
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Post by Seth »

Brad wrote: I would venture to guess that less than 10% of the rail that was around in the 1920 still in existence.
You can spot the vestiges of abandoned rail lines all across the country in satellite images.  You can start at pretty much any little town and find an angling route through downtown and follow it through fencelines and trees on to the next town, etc.
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

Iowa to receive up to $309,080 of high-speed rail development funds denied by Ohio and Wisconsin.
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2010/dot20810.html
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Seth
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Post by Seth »

I wonder if this will be enough to quash the rumblings of them bailing on the system as well.  I have to think this was an extra carrot to encourage Iowa to stick with the plan.  It should also make them look even worse of they turn down even more federal funding for it.  I hope it works.

P.S. I should admit I'm biased, because my wife and I visit family in Illinois often.  Sometimes we take the current Amtrak service, which is about the same duration as driving (but without the mind-numbing 500-mile drive).  If even this "emergent" (nothing like a fancy name to hide the fact that its half the speed of HSR anywhere else in the work, and barely beats speeds at the height of US passenger rail service) HSR makes it to Omaha, we'd be driving home far less often.
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Post by OmahaBen »

Seth wrote:I wonder if this will be enough to quash the rumblings of them bailing on the system as well.
Doubtful. Branstad's pegged his entire four years on cutting all things government and using the savings to reduce corporate taxes (under the assumption that trickle down economics still works...no comment there). Since the state would be responsible for ongoing maintenance, he'll use that as reason enough to can the entire project.

Nothing like biting one's nose off to spite the face, since he's pledged to add 200,000 jobs to Iowa (and is starting off by threatening to cut up to 1,000 gov't workers to get there, but I digress).
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Post by riceweb »

Just coming to Branstad's defense quick.

A lot of state and city governments are so consumed by support and debt costs that they have no room to be able to take on large public projects. By privatizing some services and eliminating budget gaps, a renewed focus could later be put on transportation.
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Post by OmahaBen »

riceweb wrote:Just coming to Branstad's defense quick.

A lot of state and city governments are so consumed by support and debt costs that they have no room to be able to take on large public projects. By privatizing some services and eliminating budget gaps, a renewed focus could later be put on transportation.
Key word being "could" - I can guarantee that under Branstad, it won't. Also, the upfront debt cost is what the federal money is for. This is going to get nixed because Branstad won't want to fund the ongoing maintenance and upkeep, which is wholly separate from the debt associated with building the thing in the first place.

Also, Iowa's budget doesn't look nearly as bad if you don't include the corporate tax cuts on which he campaigned. Just saying, I wouldn't trust Branstad to sell me a used car, let alone run a state.
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Post by mrdwhsr »

It isn't the initial cost of the system that Branstad appears to oppose, it is the on going operating costs that require state tax money to cover what isn't covered by fares charged to the users. If the Feds offered ongoing operating money like Amtrak enjoys maybe these HSR projects would be more successful. It would also help if there were private companies that would lobby for the project in Iowa like they do for projects in California.  

With highways, the operating costs are divided -- the state plows snow, keeps up the rest areas, funds the highway patrol / individuals buy and maintain the vehicles operated on the road. There are few objections to any 'subsidies' like the proposal in the Unicameral to use state general fund revenues to fund more highway construction than could be supported from the road-use gas tax fund. I haven't seen anything about that in the Transportation forum?

Anybody know how much of Epply's operating cost is covered by fees on the airlines, vendors, and passengers, the Feds (air traffic control), and city tax dollars?
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Post by icejammer »

Iowa DOT wants your input on Chicago-to-Omaha passsenger train
The Iowa Department of Transportation said today that a kickoff will be held for  a study analyzing the potential for passenger railroad service in a corridor between Chicago and Omaha, including a possible route through Iowa’s mid-section that would include Iowa City and Des Moines.

The Iowa DOT, in cooperation with the Federal Railroad Administration, will host an online, self-directed, open house meeting beginning Feb. 13, 2012, available at http://www.iowadot.gov/chicagotoomaha. . . .
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Brad
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Post by Brad »

There are no firm plans, so do we know it will actually come in to Omaha or Terminate in the "Omaha Metro" aka Council Bluffs.

Knowing how the Railroads Operate in the area, Termination in Council Bluffs would probably go a long way in helping the train stay on time.  Where would it terminate in Omaha?  Durham, probably not.  Burlington Station, probably not.  Amtrak, Probably.  So leaving Amtrak, the train would need to go in reverse, back up past 19th street where it could pull forward on to the BNSF mainline.  Then it would come back down the hill until about 6th street where it would need to cross over to the Union Pacific.  Then it could cross the river on the UP and head through a usually congested yard that can delay the train.  Then it would need to cross over on to the Iowa Interstate Railroad (the proposed route for this high speed train).  It would probably be much better to build a multi mode transit station on the South end of Downtown Council Bluffs where other modes of transportation in the Metro Area could come and drop people off at the train and also include a parking garage for people that would like to drive to the train station themselves.
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Post by Seth »

I think this is a worthwhile proposal.  My wife  and I go back to Illinois periodically to visit our families, and sometimes take Amtrak.  A more direct route that would be faster and more reliable would result in us taking more trips via train.

The routes that Amtrak runs through the midwest are far from the most efficient, fastest, or most dependable.  I don't know all the history regarding the collapse of private passenger rail and organization of Amtrak, but I doubt logical analysis of passenger movement and large population centers was at the top.  You are going to get a lot more ridership stopping in Des Moines than Creston.
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Post by Brad »

There is another route in the paper today that I never thought about.  Rebuilding the old "Milwaukee Road" Railroad line that ran across Iowa.  Currently it is Abandoned East of Bayard, IA, the BSNF runs the portion from Council Bluffs to Bayard.  As a train guy, I would love to see it rebuilt, but I think there just isn't enough population base along that line for the government to choose it.  The Bayard Local run out 3 days a week and back 3 days a week so there wouldn't be much traffic to get in the way.
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Post by ShawJ »

I don't know anything about trains so this is probably a stupid question, but the article mentioned that one difficulty about taking a route into Omaha is the fact that there is only one active bridge. Is the old swing bridge totally out of question?
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Post by Brad »

Not totally, but probably.  Its in really bad shape.  In its last years of service they had a chain tied to the bridge and hooked to a bulldozer and pulled it open and closed.

If they chose the CN route, it would be more likely, but I don't see them choosing the route either.  Its further north than the Milwaukee Road line.

Like I said earlier, unless they use the existing Amtrak Station, I don't see them coming all the way in to Omaha.
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Post by ShawJ »

Bummer. I've always wanted to see that thing in action.
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Post by BRoss »

I always wondered about that bridge. It looks cool, but didn't look like it was in use anymore.
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Post by icejammer »

Here's your chance to be heard:

Passenger rail open house Thursday

The Iowa Department of Transportation, in coordination with the Federal Railroad Administration and Illinois Department of Transportation, will hold a series of Chicago to Omaha Regional Passenger Rail System planning session beginning today.

An in-person session will be held in Council Bluffs Thursday from 4 to 7 p.m. at the Mid-America Center, 1 Arena Way. . . .
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Post by Seth »

Too bad I'm out of town, or I'd definitely go to this.  I'm glad to see there is still effort towards a better Omaha to Chicago route.
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Post by icejammer »

Proposed train route could have C.B. stop
The preferred route for a passenger train linking Omaha and Chicago would parallel Interstate 80 through Iowa with a possible stop in Council Bluffs, a state transportation official said Thursday.

“That’s the one we’re moving forward with,” said Amanda Martin, freight and passenger policy coordinator for the Iowa Department of Transportation.

Iowa is one of several midwestern states developing plans for improved train passenger service that could link major cities within the central part of the country, such as Omaha to Chicago and on to Detroit or from Chicago to St. Louis, Martin said, and possibly at speeds of up to 100 mph.

“We want to be competitive with automobiles,” she said. . . .

Where, or if, it would stop in Council Bluffs, as well as the Omaha location is still not decided, she said.

The next step is to create a preliminary draft by this fall, followed by more public hearings before a final document is developed and given to the Federal Railroad Administration for its decision to move forward, she said.

After that, it’s up to Congress to vote on funds for the construction, Martin said. . . .
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Post by Brad »

Over the next few years Council Bluffs and IDOT are making a lot of changes to the railroads in Council Bluffs.  Hopefully they take this in to account before they remove too many tracks.  However since the plans for 29 (and the railroads) are done, It may be too late.
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Post by icejammer »

Brad wrote:Over the next few years Council Bluffs and IDOT are making a lot of changes to the railroads in Council Bluffs.  Hopefully they take this in to account before they remove too many tracks.  However since the plans for 29 (and the railroads) are done, It may be too late.
If they do indeed go with the old Rock Island line like this article indicates, there won't be a problem.  (and nothing is over "done" until it gets built!)
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Post by Seth »

After that, it’s up to Congress to vote on funds for the construction, Martin said. . . .
Not getting my hopes up on that one...
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Post by Dusty »

I love the concepts of traveling by trains, but these passengers trains are way too slow. It's not worth the money or time to mess with this. Why would I take the train that takes 9 hours to Chicago when I can drive it in 8?

In my mind, it's not worth doing unless it's mag lev trains going a minimum of 300mph.
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Post by the1wags »

I dunno about 300MPH maglevs, but I agree with the thought. Passenger rail is a waste of time if it isn't high speed.
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Post by BRoss »

UISG endorses Chicago to Omaha rail line

http://www.dailyiowan.com/2012/09/12/Metro/29736.html
Daily Iowan wrote:A proposed rail line running from Chicago to Omaha would provide University of Iowa students yet another mode of transportation, and UI Student Government officials back the project.

After an in-depth debate on the floor of a UISG meeting Tuesday evening, the Senate passed a resolution endorsing a proposed rail line, 19-11, with eight senators abstaining.
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Post by Coyote »

Hearings scheduled on Omaha to Chicago passenger rail route
Matt Kelley of Radio Iowa wrote:Three public hearings will be held next week to give residents in Iowa, Nebraska and Illinois the chance to comment on the proposal. The final public hearing is Thursday, December 13th, at the Council Bluffs Public Library.
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Post by Big E »

http://www.omaha.com/article/20121213/N ... nia-zephyr
Officials project that a train trip would take about 7½ hours from Omaha to Chicago, with speeds reaching 110 mph at times. Officials are considering five round-trips per day between Omaha and Chicago, and seven between Des Moines and Chicago.
Price will be the decider on this.  You can literally get from downtown Omaha to downtown Chicago in less than four hours via plane for ±$200, assuming everything goes right.  My time is worth more than that if I'm going to Chicago for anything.
Stable genius.
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Post by iamjacobm »

It would probably be better off for Omaha to cut Atlantic and Grinnell out as stops.  Take an hour or more off the trip for us that way.
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Post by zieski »

Since this is Iowa's plan I doubt it will cut out any Iowa stops. It's the first part of Iowa's passenger rail plan to create a grid like infrastructure of passenger routes that connect Iowa's people to the rest of the country to foster economic growth. Going between Des Moines - Chicago will probably be much more convenient on this route depending on pricing, not to mention Atlantic, Grinnell and Iowa City to Chicago.

Selfishly I would love it if 3/5 or 2/5 of the routes were express routes of Omaha - Des Moines - Chicago.
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Post by l-dude »

I just have to comment...If they need more support, Lincoln should be strongly considered as the western terminus of this line, even though Iowa is in the lead on this.  Consider...UNL is in the BIG (ten) now, duh.  Lincoln/Omaha to Iowa City (U of Iowa), Chicago (Northwestern), and via Chicago, Madison (University of Wisconsin), Detroit (Ann Arbor & East Lansing) South Bend (Notre Dame, wink, wink), Indy, etc... makes too much sense not  to CALL Jim Delany , get him involved...more butts in seats = more ticket demand = more $ to the conference (esp. BTN).  You get the Idea, (not JUST Football!!!).
Also for those that have lusted for ("high speed rail") between Omaha/Lincoln, this would certainly (partially???) fulfill that dream.  (Assuming that this service isn't affected for on-time results for the same reasons that Amtrak is notoriously late for their destinations).  There are many ways to advocate this, mostly a great excuse for lots of constituencies to get involved.  Given our current economic/political climate, I can't predict  a future for this rails project, but my fingers are crossed.
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Post by iamjacobm »

It will sit solely on our state officials to get the line extended to Lincoln.  I think it makes a ton of sense, taking a train from the Haymarket to the Old Market in less than an hour is a legitimate competitor to driving.  As mentioned before taking a train with 5 stops that takes almost twice as long as flying is a tougher thing to compete with.
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Post by icejammer »

Cost, demand concerns at rail service hearing
Cost and possible low ridership were two of the major issues citizens raised during a public hearing on the Chicago to Council Bluffs-Omaha Regional Passenger Rail System Planning Study. . . .

The preferred route out of six studied would use mainly existing track roughly parallel to Interstate 80 with regular stops in the Quad Cities, Iowa City, Des Moines, Council Bluffs and Omaha, as well as a couple in Illinois, according to a preliminary draft. Selected trains would also stop in Grinnell and Atlantic. Trains would travel at a speed of 79 miles per hour, with the possibility of an eventual increase to 110 miles per hour, if required track upgrades are completed.

Service would be phased in, with initial trips going only as far as Moline, Ill. Service would be extended to Iowa City, Des Moines and Council Bluffs a step at a time based on ridership and revenue demands.

Several people raised questions and concerns about infrastructure and operating costs during the comment/question period. . . .

“We’re proposing a regional service that would have times convenient to riders for shorter trips,” she said.

A majority of those surveyed said they would use a regional passenger rail service, said Amanda Martin of the DOT’s Office of Rail Transportation. Out of more than 1,200 surveyed at hearings, in groups and via Internet, 32 percent said they would use the rail service for business, 25 percent said they would use it for personal travel and 42 percent said they would use it for both, she said. Only 2 percent said they would not use it.

David Steinhauser said he favors the development of regional passenger service. He said he had traveled in Europe and liked the rail system there. . . .

Amanda Martin of the DOT said an initial study that focused on service from Chicago to Iowa City estimated that tickets would be priced at $62 for a round trip from Chicago to Iowa City and $90 for a round trip from Chicago to Des Moines. . . .

To provide input to the study that includes Iowa, visit iowadot.gov/chicagotoomaha, call (800) 488-7119, send an email to email@chicagotoomaha.com, attend a meeting or send a written comment to Amanda Martin, Iowa Department of Transportation, 800 Lincoln Way, Ames, IA 50010.
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Post by TitosBuritoBarn »

79 MPH isn't going to cut it. They'll have to do at least 110 MPH or expect to be in the red. Transportation needs to be priced relative to convenience and speed. Planes are expensive but they're really quick. Buses are slow but they're cheap. Driving isn't too quick or too cheap, but it's convenient. All the bases are already covered so trains will need to be almost as good at 2 out of 3 of those things. Being cheap is already out of the question so a balance of speed and convenience is necessary.
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Post by icejammer »

TitosBuritoBarn wrote:79 MPH isn't going to cut it. They'll have to do at least 110 MPH or expect to be in the red. Transportation needs to be priced relative to convenience and speed. Planes are expensive but they're really quick. Buses are slow but they're cheap. Driving isn't too quick or too cheap, but it's convenient. All the bases are already covered so trains will need to be almost as good at 2 out of 3 of those things. Being cheap is already out of the question so a balance of speed and convenience is necessary.
Just for comparison, the $90 DSM-CHI R/T price quoted in the story is cheaper than a Trailsway bus ticket R/T.  And the train would be faster.  I think it can be competitive.
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Post by TitosBuritoBarn »

Admittedly I just read what you quoted. $90? That's not a bad deal. Amtrak charges $120 for a round trip from Chicago to Creston.
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Post by BRoss »

icejammer wrote:
TitosBuritoBarn wrote:79 MPH isn't going to cut it. They'll have to do at least 110 MPH or expect to be in the red. Transportation needs to be priced relative to convenience and speed. Planes are expensive but they're really quick. Buses are slow but they're cheap. Driving isn't too quick or too cheap, but it's convenient. All the bases are already covered so trains will need to be almost as good at 2 out of 3 of those things. Being cheap is already out of the question so a balance of speed and convenience is necessary.
Just for comparison, the $90 DSM-CHI R/T price quoted in the story is cheaper than a Trailsway bus ticket R/T.  And the train would be faster.  I think it can be competitive.
But that's only from Des Moines. I'm sure it will more than that to go between Omaha and Chicago.
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Post by icejammer »

HR Paperstacks wrote:
icejammer wrote:
TitosBuritoBarn wrote:79 MPH isn't going to cut it. They'll have to do at least 110 MPH or expect to be in the red. Transportation needs to be priced relative to convenience and speed. Planes are expensive but they're really quick. Buses are slow but they're cheap. Driving isn't too quick or too cheap, but it's convenient. All the bases are already covered so trains will need to be almost as good at 2 out of 3 of those things. Being cheap is already out of the question so a balance of speed and convenience is necessary.
Just for comparison, the $90 DSM-CHI R/T price quoted in the story is cheaper than a Trailsway bus ticket R/T.  And the train would be faster.  I think it can be competitive.
But that's only from Des Moines. I'm sure it will more than that to go between Omaha and Chicago.
There's a $28 price differential between the Iowa City-Chicago RT and Des Moines-Chicago RT.  I would guess we'd see a similar price differential from Omaha, as compared to Des Moines, still slightly less than a bus ticket.
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Post by BRoss »

icejammer wrote:
HR Paperstacks wrote:
icejammer wrote:
TitosBuritoBarn wrote:79 MPH isn't going to cut it. They'll have to do at least 110 MPH or expect to be in the red. Transportation needs to be priced relative to convenience and speed. Planes are expensive but they're really quick. Buses are slow but they're cheap. Driving isn't too quick or too cheap, but it's convenient. All the bases are already covered so trains will need to be almost as good at 2 out of 3 of those things. Being cheap is already out of the question so a balance of speed and convenience is necessary.
Just for comparison, the $90 DSM-CHI R/T price quoted in the story is cheaper than a Trailsway bus ticket R/T.  And the train would be faster.  I think it can be competitive.
But that's only from Des Moines. I'm sure it will more than that to go between Omaha and Chicago.
There's a $28 price differential between the Iowa City-Chicago RT and Des Moines-Chicago RT.  I would guess we'd see a similar price differential from Omaha, as compared to Des Moines, still slightly less than a bus ticket.
The last time I took Megabus (about six months ago), it was only $99 round trip. But then again, it was pretty uncomfortable. If these trains had more space, then I'd say it would be worth it.
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Post by city11 »

I still don't get how it can go 110 mph, but take 7 1/2 hours? This seems weird to me. I know it is stopping in different places but still. I find it sad that a new train system could be built and in 2015-16 still take as long as a car does.
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Post by Big E »

city11 wrote:I still don't get how it can go 110 mph, but take 7 1/2 hours? This seems weird to me. I know it is stopping in different places but still. I find it sad that a new train system could be built and in 2015-16 still take as long as a car does.
I'd imagine it CAN go 110 MPH, but is restricted as it goes through numerous municipalities?  Just guessing.  Figure in time for stops, as well.
Stable genius.
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