Death Penalty in NE

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RNcyanide
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Death Penalty in NE

Post by RNcyanide »

http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/enough- ... 4acc0.html

There was enough signatures gathered to put the repeal of the repeal on a referendum for 2016. Hooray.

I couldn't find an existing thread about this, but if there is one, please merge it.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by bigredmed »

RNcyanide wrote:http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/enough- ... 4acc0.html

There was enough signatures gathered to put the repeal of the repeal on a referendum for 2016. Hooray.

I couldn't find an existing thread about this, but if there is one, please merge it.
Not a supporter of the death penalty, but I do find the notion that high impact issues should be handled without a popular vote to be troubling. I find more troubling the leftist thugs that tried to block people from accessing the petitions including blocking uninvolved people from simply walking on the sidewalk.

Now we can have a vote and let it be decided once and for all.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by Professor Woland »

bigredmed wrote:
RNcyanide wrote:http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/enough- ... 4acc0.html

There was enough signatures gathered to put the repeal of the repeal on a referendum for 2016. Hooray.

I couldn't find an existing thread about this, but if there is one, please merge it.
Not a supporter of the death penalty, but I do find the notion that high impact issues should be handled without a popular vote to be troubling. I find more troubling the leftist thugs that tried to block people from accessing the petitions including blocking uninvolved people from simply walking on the sidewalk.

Now we can have a vote and let it be decided once and for all.
I'm going to have to strongly disagree here. The death penalty is so odious that no majority can possibly make it legitimate. Other than outright physical violence any means used to prevent it from returning are alright by me.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by RNcyanide »

It's really easy to support the death penalty when you're not a member of the family of someone who was killed who keeps having to go to court every time a convict appeals their sentence. Assuming the person is even guilty. Over the years, there's been a lot of instances of people who were found to be innocent after the execution, and it was found that the police, the prosecutors, and other legal/crime staff buried or tampered with evidence, forced confessions, and other shady |expletive|. I remember glancing past an article recently about a man who is supposed to be executed in Oklahoma and is supposedly innocent.

Another disappointing example, involving man of the hour Donald Trump, is where three teens were forced to confess to murders in Memphis that they didn't commit and he spent years trumpeting why they should be executed, even as evidence supporting their innocence mounted. Even their release didn't stop him from talking about how they were guilty. Think of someone like that trying to influence people as to why we need a death penalty, or why someone is guilty even though he knows nothing about the case.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by bigredmed »

Professor Woland wrote:
bigredmed wrote:
RNcyanide wrote:http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/enough- ... 4acc0.html

There was enough signatures gathered to put the repeal of the repeal on a referendum for 2016. Hooray.

I couldn't find an existing thread about this, but if there is one, please merge it.
Not a supporter of the death penalty, but I do find the notion that high impact issues should be handled without a popular vote to be troubling. I find more troubling the leftist thugs that tried to block people from accessing the petitions including blocking uninvolved people from simply walking on the sidewalk.

Now we can have a vote and let it be decided once and for all.
I'm going to have to strongly disagree here. The death penalty is so odious that no majority can possibly make it legitimate. Other than outright physical violence any means used to prevent it from returning are alright by me.
Shoving people into the street? Is that OK for you?
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by Professor Woland »

bigredmed wrote:
Professor Woland wrote:
bigredmed wrote:
RNcyanide wrote:http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/enough- ... 4acc0.html

There was enough signatures gathered to put the repeal of the repeal on a referendum for 2016. Hooray.

I couldn't find an existing thread about this, but if there is one, please merge it.
Not a supporter of the death penalty, but I do find the notion that high impact issues should be handled without a popular vote to be troubling. I find more troubling the leftist thugs that tried to block people from accessing the petitions including blocking uninvolved people from simply walking on the sidewalk.

Now we can have a vote and let it be decided once and for all.
I'm going to have to strongly disagree here. The death penalty is so odious that no majority can possibly make it legitimate. Other than outright physical violence any means used to prevent it from returning are alright by me.
Shoving people into the street? Is that OK for you?

No, that counts as outright physical violence. It's morally reprehensible and counterproductive to boot. None of which changes the fact that in the true sense of the concept the people as a whole and as individuals do not have the right to vote for the death penalty's return, any more than they would have the right to outlaw Presbyterianism or reinstate slavery.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by bigredmed »

See I disagree.

The argument made was the penalty was too costly because of the appeals. The problem is that the people making this argument are the same people now propagandizing against life sentences. So where does it stop? No punishment at all?

The issue is whether or not someone has done a crime vile enough to warrant being put down like a rabid dog. If yes, then confirm their guilt and then provide them with a high velocity curroplumbum cerebral bolus infusion in 9mm and repeat as necessary.

If someone's crime is not so bad, then jail. If you are not convinced of their guilt, then jail till you can prove it one way or another (assuming they have been convicted once).
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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bigredmed wrote:See I disagree.

The argument made was the penalty was too costly because of the appeals. The problem is that the people making this argument are the same people now propagandizing against life sentences. So where does it stop? No punishment at all?

The issue is whether or not someone has done a crime vile enough to warrant being put down like a rabid dog. If yes, then confirm their guilt and then provide them with a high velocity curroplumbum cerebral bolus infusion in 9mm and repeat as necessary.

If someone's crime is not so bad, then jail. If you are not convinced of their guilt, then jail till you can prove it one way or another (assuming they have been convicted once).
That may have been some people's reason for opposing the death penalty, but mine is that the legitimate use of violence is determined by proportionality and necessity. Any person or group of people has the right to use a reasonably necessary and proportionately warranted amount of violence to stop an imminent or ongoing event. The death penalty can only meet this requirement in a nomadic society, so it's an illegitimate use of lethal violence. As for punishment, I oppose that on principle as well. Prison or penal colonies should exist to keep dangerous people away from us, not to teach them a lesson or prove a point. When practical a just system would compel a criminal to make restitution to their victims, if the criminal is guilty of something truly heinous and represents a threat to innocent people, then lock them up or settle them somewhere. Now, it's entirely possible that you reject my understanding of justified violence, but I think it holds up pretty well.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by bigredmed »

Again I am not a supporter of the death penalty. I didn't sign up he petition, but I was sorely tested by the behavior of the opponents. I find your need to become preachy annoyingly similar to ethics and have no need for such a discussion.

We settle the debate by vote and go from there.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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bigredmed wrote:Again I am not a supporter of the death penalty. I didn't sign up he petition, but I was sorely tested by the behavior of the opponents. I find your need to become preachy annoyingly similar to ethics and have no need for such a discussion.

We settle the debate by vote and go from there.
I wasn't being preachy, I was being long winded. Sorry you were annoyed, I thought it was interesting.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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Mississippi, never to be outdone, votes to move a bill forward to bring the firing squad back.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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iamjacobm wrote:Mississippi, never to be outdone, votes to move a bill forward to bring the firing squad back.
Normally I would disapprove and say "I hope Nebraska never does this", but then I read the Public Pulse and also drive in this city....and suddenly my attitude towards executions changes.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by jessep28 »

I'm anti death penalty, but if the "will of the voters" is to maintain capital punishment for public safety, or whatever BS excuse death penalty proponents use to justify it, then Nebraska should explore using the guillotine. The state killing people shouldn't be watered down as a medical procedure. The guillotine is quick, efficient and less prone to errors than hanging, shooting squad, electric chair, or lethal injection.

Every state senator and governor/LT governor should be required to view it too.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by GrandpaaSmucker »

I think they are going to execute this guy this week for sure. I am all for the Death Penalty but this whole deal is a shady deal indeed. The fools that carry out this deed for our Billionaire governor most certainly deserve to be exposed as his henchmen. Here is to hoping those folks all get the bad Karma back in spades that they deserve. I am sure glad that I am not so broke and lacking in decency and morals that I have to carry out Rickets dirty work for him. Bet the farm on Rickets bragging heavily about this execution in his presidential campaign commercials someday.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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The secrecy and back channel avenues the state used to acquire their execution drugs is worrisome. Two drug makers sued Nebraska in federal court to stop the execution, stating that their drugs were being used contrary to distribution policies, but a District Court judge denied their request. It'll be seen if the appellate court will expedite an appeal, or issue in injunction to stop the execution while the case goes through appeal.

There an expiration deadline of August 31st on one of the drugs, so there is pressure to get this done by the end of the month.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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jessep28 wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:29 pm The secrecy and back channel avenues the state used to acquire their execution drugs is worrisome. Two drug makers sued Nebraska in federal court to stop the execution, stating that their drugs were being used contrary to distribution policies, but a District Court judge denied their request. It'll be seen if the appellate court will expedite an appeal, or issue in injunction to stop the execution while the case goes through appeal.

There an expiration deadline of August 31st on one of the drugs, so there is pressure to get this done by the end of the month.
Agreed. This means of purchase meant that the death penalty opponents could simply have sued and blocked the purchase of the drugs. By doing this, the state appears to be playing chicken with the clock ticking against a legal objection. Frankly, I can see the wisdom in that as the seemingly endless appeals are one of the canards of the death penalty argument. The pro-side points to the endless appeals and manipulation of the legal system by the opponents and the the opponents point to the cost of these appeals for why it should be stopped.

I would be fine with replacing it with the dead penalty. Life in prison, but treated as if they were already dead. Enough food and water to maintain biological life, annual visits from your family, and a lawyer to handle your estate.

Hopefully, a working solution for the punishment of extreme criminals can be found.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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bigredmed1 wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:24 am
jessep28 wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:29 pm The secrecy and back channel avenues the state used to acquire their execution drugs is worrisome. Two drug makers sued Nebraska in federal court to stop the execution, stating that their drugs were being used contrary to distribution policies, but a District Court judge denied their request. It'll be seen if the appellate court will expedite an appeal, or issue in injunction to stop the execution while the case goes through appeal.

There an expiration deadline of August 31st on one of the drugs, so there is pressure to get this done by the end of the month.
Agreed. This means of purchase meant that the death penalty opponents could simply have sued and blocked the purchase of the drugs. By doing this, the state appears to be playing chicken with the clock ticking against a legal objection. Frankly, I can see the wisdom in that as the seemingly endless appeals are one of the canards of the death penalty argument. The pro-side points to the endless appeals and manipulation of the legal system by the opponents and the the opponents point to the cost of these appeals for why it should be stopped.

I would be fine with replacing it with the dead penalty. Life in prison, but treated as if they were already dead. Enough food and water to maintain biological life, annual visits from your family, and a lawyer to handle your estate.

Hopefully, a working solution for the punishment of extreme criminals can be found.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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Considering the difficulty of finding lethal injection drugs, and other potential complications like not being able to locate suitable veins, the next evolution in capital punishment seems to be nitrogen asphyxiation. Some states are already developing procedures for such a method. If it goes smoothly, other states will be sure to adopt it.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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jessep28 wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:55 pm Considering the difficulty of finding lethal injection drugs, and other potential complications like not being able to locate suitable veins, the next evolution in capital punishment seems to be nitrogen asphyxiation. Some states are already developing procedures for such a method. If it goes smoothly, other states will be sure to adopt it.
I have this feeling we just saw the last death penalty execution ever in the State of Nebraska. I also have the this feeling that executing a guy 39 years after his crime is so hollow and worthless. After 39 years it is almost like nobody really cares no more. Half the people that were around 39 years ago are either dead or moved away. I found myself wondering that if we knew that we only had one more execution left then we would of much rather seen them execute Nikko Jenkins. It is not because Nikko is black or he did anything worse then the rest of the guys on death row it is just that it is the most fresh in my mind.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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I almost agree with you Grandpa. I'm not even close to being in the Death Penalty conversation, but, isn't this form of punishment mostly promoted as a deterrent? How can this even close to be seen as a deterrent for his generation when after 39 years there was practically just jail time?

Also, I find it ironic that in the midst of an opioid crisis, they used an ipioid to put him to death.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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As far as I'm concerned, the death penalty is the easy way out no matter how long it takes to carry through. Now he no longer has to live with the guilt and no longer has to deal with difficult prison life. There's a reason he wanted this carried out...

A much better punishment would be to keep them alive as long as possible so they can watch the world move on knowing they will always be stuck in a miserable prison with no freedom. That suffering is much more than what could come with death. To me that's a much greater deterrence. I would much rather die than spend the rest of my life in prison.

I think the governor really wanted to kill someone and that he's just as much of a murderer for it.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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In Moore’s case, for all practical purposes, he served both life in prison and death by execution. It can’t get much worse than that. At least he wasn’t inhumanly tortured other than knowing his fate for most of his life and having to spend it in prison.
It’s a bad situation for all involved, but more so for his victim’s families by far. Personally, I’d rather Nebraska just had life without parole instead of the death penalty, although it’s real hard to have any sympathy at all for murderers.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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I don't know what kind of person Moore was at the end of his life, I didn't read any articles about it because the thought of the execution happening turned my stomach. It seems likely that having spent the majority of his life on death row, that he wasn't anything like the person that killed two men. There is a pseudo intellectual argument for the necessity of the death penalty which runs that only the death penalty can possibly account for the value of human life by making the punishment for ending one so severe. This strikes me as risible, and it really is the best that pro capital punishment people can do. I think most people support the death penalty because, when they imagine themselves in the position of someone who has lost a loved one to murder, they understandably feel the intense urge to annihilate the murderer. I know that's how I would feel. But to execute requires us to create executioners, to aim our bureaucrats and functionaries at the elimination of a defenseless human being. It lessens us, it weakens our moral fiber, and it cheapens human life. Cary Moore might well have deserved to die, but no human society could ever deserve the right to kill him.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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The fact the government has the power to end a human’s life is scary and it’s ridiculous that the potential punishment for killing someone is... killing someone. No human has the right to take away another human’s life no matter the circumstance. I also find it amusing that a typical pro-lifer will most likely be pro-death penalty and that the typical pro-choicer will most likely be anti-death penalty. American exceptionalism (AKA American Ignorance) at its finest.
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buildomaha wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:15 pm The fact the government has the power to end a human’s life is scary and it’s ridiculous that the potential punishment for killing someone is... killing someone. No human has the right to take away another human’s life no matter the circumstance. I also find it amusing that a typical pro-lifer will most likely be pro-death penalty and that the typical pro-choicer will most likely be anti-death penalty. American exceptionalism (AKA American Ignorance) at its finest.
I agree is seems like too much power, but at what point does killing become necessary? Only in self defense?...or perhaps also in war when people and governments are forced to kill to maintain their own existence? The Catholic Church is against the death penalty and abortion, but where do they stand on war? Not asking you specifically... just for more discussion.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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This is an interesting topic, but I can't comment on the specific case because I really don't know much about it. I'll just comment my views on the subject.

I don't know the law exactly, I think you can only legally kill someone if you're presented with a direct (at gun point, other weapon, fight) threat to your life, (or others?)(is property included?). So it's simple to me, it's not okay, in at least this society, to kill someone unless it's for those purposes.

I don't agree with the argument that it's amoral to kill a killer because you're committing the same act upon them. Call me crazy, but I don't believe killers have a place in this society. Even if you're gonna face the that obvious PC argument. To spend the money of the 99% of people who aren't killers, to keep a killer alive is the ultimate disservice to society, and the only way to right that disservice is to end their life. It's that simple to me.

Plus, no, the death penalty isn't a deterrent. Maybe that's the way it was supposed to work, but we were wrong on that. Killers are going to kill regardless of the punishment. To be crazy enough to kill someone in this society, to me is an immediate write off. See ya.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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Busguy2010 wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:10 pm This is an interesting topic, but I can't comment on the specific case because I really don't know much about it. I'll just comment my views on the subject.

I don't know the law exactly, I think you can only legally kill someone if you're presented with a direct (at gun point, other weapon, fight) threat to your life, (or others?)(is property included?). So it's simple to me, it's not okay, in at least this society, to kill someone unless it's for those purposes.

I don't agree with the argument that it's amoral to kill a killer because you're committing the same act upon them. Call me crazy, but I don't believe killers have a place in this society. Even if you're gonna face the that obvious PC argument. To spend the money of the 99% of people who aren't killers, to keep a killer alive is the ultimate disservice to society, and the only way to right that disservice is to end their life. It's that simple to me.

Plus, no, the death penalty isn't a deterrent. Maybe that's the way it was supposed to work, but we were wrong on that. Killers are going to kill regardless of the punishment. To be crazy enough to kill someone in this society, to me is an immediate write off. See ya.
1. It may not be a deterrent, but it is punishment.

2. A lot of those who whinge about the 38 years on Death Row are the same people who have thrown up roadblocks toward a swift execution of the punishment (appeals, banning of certain drugs, etc.)
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by bigredmed1 »

The point made about the hypocritical whining of the opponents yelling about the delays and endless appeals yet them being the root cause of same is a good one. Who can take them seriously when they say that life imprisonment will end this? A year after we make this change, we could start a betting line on how many appeals stating that life without parole is barbaric will be filed per year or per inmate.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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GrandpaaSmucker wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:45 am
jessep28 wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:55 pm Considering the difficulty of finding lethal injection drugs, and other potential complications like not being able to locate suitable veins, the next evolution in capital punishment seems to be nitrogen asphyxiation. Some states are already developing procedures for such a method. If it goes smoothly, other states will be sure to adopt it.
I have this feeling we just saw the last death penalty execution ever in the State of Nebraska. I also have the this feeling that executing a guy 39 years after his crime is so hollow and worthless. After 39 years it is almost like nobody really cares no more. Half the people that were around 39 years ago are either dead or moved away. I found myself wondering that if we knew that we only had one more execution left then we would of much rather seen them execute Nikko Jenkins. It is not because Nikko is black or he did anything worse then the rest of the guys on death row it is just that it is the most fresh in my mind.
I am good friends with one of the daughters of one of Moore's victims.

This debacle - specifically the waiting, and back & forth political maneuvering - was extraordinarily difficult for the families of the victims. If they were going to execute Carey Dean Moore, it should have happened decades ago.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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GetUrban wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:01 pmThe Catholic Church is against the death penalty and abortion, but where do they stand on war? Not asking you specifically... just for more discussion.
Considering their stance on child rape, I'm not sure I'd lean on their teachings real |expletive| hard these days...
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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damonhynes wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:01 am 1. It may not be a deterrent, but it is punishment.

2. A lot of those who whinge about the 38 years on Death Row are the same people who have thrown up roadblocks toward a swift execution of the punishment (appeals, banning of certain drugs, etc.)
I just wanted to make it clear that I 100% support the death penalty. I think anybody who is suspected of murder should be allowed a reasonable opportunity to argue their case. If the suspect can't come up with an argument within a reasonable amount of time, then depending on the prosecutor's argument, the suspect should be subject to a scale similar to school grading, based on the grade of the prosecutor's argument, which would be backed by the jury. Add one more level of analysis from a local source of legal professionals, because a jury is a pretty inadequate example of support. Then grade the whole argument against the suspect. If the consensus is our argument gets:

A - 90 + immediate execution
B - 80-89 immediate execution
C - 70-79 further consideration/jail time for foreseeable future/execution still in play for further consideration
D - 60-69 Jail time for foreseeable future/argument of convict still valid/execution out of play until further proof.

I think if the suspect's argument is found more than 80% guilty of 1st degree murder, then they should be executed, quickly. It shouldn't take more than a year or two to be sure of these decisions.

There are many murderers in jail for life (or practically life) that I know I don't want to be supporting just because the legal system is whatever.
Last edited by Busguy2010 on Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

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Busguy2010 wrote: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:53 am
damonhynes wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:01 am 1. It may not be a deterrent, but it is punishment.

2. A lot of those who whinge about the 38 years on Death Row are the same people who have thrown up roadblocks toward a swift execution of the punishment (appeals, banning of certain drugs, etc.)
I just wanted to make it clear that I 100% support the death penalty. I think anybody who is suspected of murder should be allowed a reasonable opportunity to argue their case. If the suspect can't come up with an argument within a reasonable amount of time, then depending on the prosecutor's argument, the suspect should be subject to a scale similar to school grading, based on the grade of the prosecutor's argument, which would be backed by the jury. Add one more level of analysis from a local source of legal professionals, because a jury is a pretty inadequate example of support. Then grade the whole argument against the suspect. If the consensus is our argument gets:

A - 90 + immediate execution
B - 80-89 immediate execution
C - 70-79 further consideration/jail time for foreseeable future/execution still in play for further consideration
D - 60-69 Jail time for foreseeable future/argument of convict still valid/execution out of play until further proof.

I think if the suspect's argument is found more than 80% guilty of 1st degree murder, then they should be executed, quickly. It shouldn't take more than a year or two to be sure of these decisions.

There are many murderers in jail for life (or practically life) that I know I don't want to be supporting just because the legal system is whatever.
Interesting. What you speak of does have good points.
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damonhynes
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by damonhynes »

bigredmed1 wrote: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:21 pm The point made about the hypocritical whining of the opponents yelling about the delays and endless appeals yet them being the root cause of same is a good one. Who can take them seriously when they say that life imprisonment will end this? A year after we make this change, we could start a betting line on how many appeals stating that life without parole is barbaric will be filed per year or per inmate.
Bingo.
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GetUrban
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Re: Death Penalty in NE

Post by GetUrban »

Big E wrote: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:38 pm
GetUrban wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:01 pmThe Catholic Church is against the death penalty and abortion, but where do they stand on war? Not asking you specifically... just for more discussion.
Considering their stance on child rape, I'm not sure I'd lean on their teachings real |expletive| hard these days...
Very true.

Church doctrine and day-to-day practice/reality are proving to not be the same thing in some cases, unfortunately.

The info Coyote posted above about "just war" is very interesting reading nonetheless.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings"
...and then they were gone.
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