General Mixed Use Development & Freeway Discussion

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RockHarbor
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General Mixed Use Development & Freeway Discussion

Post by RockHarbor »

I am not happy about some "urban style village" planned for these plots of land. Don't get me wrong, I think the designers did a great job on a plan. I just don't feel we need some "urban village" in West Omaha -- especially when we have Aksarben Village, and another one planned for Crossroads.

We drive into the city for that kind of exciting urban feel -- not out to West Omaha for it, imo. New Urban villages are still cool, but they are not as "in vogue" as they used to be, it seems to me...

I really feel that area should have more a feel like the Jordan Creek Mall area of West Des Moines -- minus the large mall. Maybe a lake (& lighted fountain) with restaurants surrounding it (so Omahans can have a nice dinner near a calm, reflective lake on a patio). Maybe some minor shopping areas... Maybe some beautiful new office buildings, near the lake, like the striking ones in the First National Business Park nearby. That all makes more sense to me.

I love my hometown. I respect the leaders in this town, but I just don't understand the thinking sometimes of those running the show. I don't EVER see urban bloopers in Des Moines & Minneapolis, and I wonder if the people in those cities have a better sense of what is appropriate, and what NOT is appropriate, than the people here.

For example: I don't see Minneapolis or Des Moines inserting an urban village (w/ a grid of streets) out in their suburbs. No, they build sharp, suburban-appropriate areas, like the Jordan Creek Mall area. They have sharp, suburban-style office campuses -- developments w/ meandering roads, parking lots spaced-out freely, buildings set at different angles. I'm talking the Wells Fargo campus in West Des Moines, or the beautiful Aviva/Athene one.

But, in the somewhat "strange universe" of Omaha, we approve a suburban-style campus downtown (the Con Agra campus), while approving an urban-style village (more appropriate for the inner city) way out near Boys Town -- with existing farm buildings joined to it. ??? Seriously...?

1) We approve a very boxy, large building to be built, one that is mint green w/ cartoonish windows covering the entire backside (the Ameritrade), and squeeze it in at an odd angle along a meandering parkway, within an office park of mirrored-glass 80's buildings, and wonder why people think it doesn't fit. (Surprise! Omahans don't like it. It's an oddity -- we can't get over. Negative comments under an OWH article proved it. This isn't funny, comical stuff. This is serious stuff -- a permanent cityscape we are talking about here. I cringe every time I'm in that area now.***)

2) We approve a raised freeway in suburbia, one w/ a confusing "mouse trap" design, one that carries traffic high above roof lines of nearby ranch homes, one that swoops down and up and over rolling Nebraska prairie on concrete supports, one that plows through the low-rise suburban landscape, ruining aesthetics of the Miracle Hills area w/out hardly a thought -- all to preserve a very busy McDonalds and other minor businesses. I'm sure it was also difficult to clear the area for a good exit ramp w/ the existing First National Bank there on the corner of 114th & West Dodge Road -- a 7-story building approved & built just in 1989. Yet, did they not foresee this kind of issue w/ 114th & West Dodge beforehand? Normally, the Omaha Planning Board seems sharper than that...

Also, I ask: Who erects a freeway on stilts over rolling prairie, with the highway following the profile of the land -- like some twisty roller coaster track? I've never seen such a strange thing. A raised freeway is usually erected over a flat, old, inner-city (like Detroit or Miami), or over level, marshy swamp land, like in Louisiana. I see the project won an award for being constructed in a timely manner. Still, the aerial picture shows how odd that is in suburbia. And, that First National Bank building (once the glorious apex structure of the area) looks clunky to me now, like it sits inconveniently in the way.

https://americastransportationawards.or ... xpressway/

3) We approve & plan large, urban-style villages out in suburbia, when we already have two developing ones further in town (one not quite started yet). This is all planned a hop, skip, and jump away from an already struggling regional mall (Oak View), and not that far from a burgeoning, successful outdoor mall (Village Point). Really?

I honestly DON'T GET IT.

*** I think the Ameritrade building is a unique, interesting design, btw. I just don't think it is appropriate for that specific area of suburban Omaha. Its way too much, imo. It looks more appropriate for Aksarben Village, with its trendy urban design, and straight streets, imo. Or, it would look good in a city in Europe, imo.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by Omaha_corn_burner »

RockHarbor wrote: We drive into the city for that kind of exciting urban feel -- not out to West Omaha for it, imo.
I'm guessing you either live in North O or South O if you drive into the city but also have to drive out to west Omaha?
RockHarbor wrote: Maybe a lake (& lighted fountain) with restaurants surrounding it (so Omahans can have a nice dinner near a calm, reflective lake on a patio). Maybe some minor shopping areas...
Charlie's on the Lake takes reservations. Varsity also has patio dining on the same lake. I believe there is an empty bay or two for you to open your own restaurant in that same 2 level strip mall that Varsity is located in.
RockHarbor wrote: I honestly DON'T GET IT.
Yeah, "we" know.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

Omaha_corn_burner wrote: I'm guessing you either live in North O or South O if you drive into the city but also have to drive out to west Omaha?
I'm normally a West Omaha suburban guy, but I've lived near downtown before -- including right now. I like both. When you live out in suburbia, it is nice to come into the city to urban-feeling places like Aksarben Village, Downtown, and what Crossroads will be. I don't feel we need that same type feeling out there by Boys Town. Not only do I not think we can support 3 large "urban villages" in Omaha, you lose appreciation for each one when each new one is built, imo.
Omaha_corn_burner wrote: Charlie's on the Lake takes reservations. Varsity also has patio dining on the same lake. I believe there is an empty bay or two for you to open your own restaurant in that same 2 level strip mall that Varsity is located in.
I actually forgot that little lake (or should I say "pond") is there, and didn't even realize there was a "Charlie's" restaurant on the lake/pond. Maybe I've been in there before with my mom & aunt, though (in the winter, at night, indoors). I've been to the Mexican restaurant right there, I know. I'll have to check that out sometime. I'm talking a more significant lake and ring of restaurants w/ outdoor patios -- like by Jordan Creek Mall in West Des Moines. It just an idea I'm throwing out... And, no... I'm not interested in running a restaurant. Thanks, though. Also: We have a huge blank slate to have beautiful new office buildings & complexes sitting on the rolling land, at different angles, with gorgeous landscaping on meandering parkways. (That's the beauty of spacious suburban design vs. urban.) But, no... All offices are going to be forced in these look-alike, themed, 2-3 story, tight buildings lining straight streets. What is this? London meets West Omaha? (And, not only that, we are going to have an 80's highschool, and original Boys Town farm buildings, clashing with this new "urban sophistication.") It just doesn't feel appropriate or right to me -- at all.
Omaha_corn_burner wrote:Yeah, "we" know.
I have a passion for this town (my hometown), and sometimes I can't help but "raise my voice" a bit. I'm sorry. If I could make Omaha my "pet", or my "trainset", that I could rule over, I would. But, I have no control over anything. And, I feel the people that do have control, don't always know what they doing, or don't necessarily have a knack or sense for what is right, even though they hold a degree in their hand. That type of thing... When I was very young, I didn't fully "get it", but I do now. (For example, when the Con Agra campus was announced, I thought it seemed strange for a downtown setting, but I was so glad they were building something new, and was annoyed at the Jobber Canyon picketers. Now, I would be shocked at such an approval downtown, and would be standing with the picketers.) I mean, as a 14 year-old, I would enjoy that you could arrive at 114th & Dodge in my family's mini van, and the First National Bank sort of anchored the area as the tallest building on the corner, while the rest of the Miracle Hills skyline was off to the right. Now, that whole area is just an eyesore, with a shadow cast on things from an elevated expressway, confusing ramps going every which way, and that bank now seeming to be an arm's length off the freeway -- like it is annoyingly in the way, the freeway obviously plowed through many years later, with new thinking. I just can't believe they allowed all that -- a permanent ugly cityscape for the rest of our lives, all for a little McDonald's on the corner, which may or may not stay in business. Than, to add insult to injury, a green boxy building that looks something out of a "Dr. Suess" book, and doesn't match the context of the area AT ALL, is allowed to rise nearby. Every time I drive through that area now, I practically whisper to myself in my subconscience: "Don't worry...it will get better...someday...when they build more buildings. You'll eventually like it...someday." I don't feel that way in Aksarben Village, Downtown, or most places around Omaha. So, they mostly make good decisions, but some are really bad, imo. And, when they announced these two rectangular areas of land near Boys Town, finally open for development, are going to be urban villages, I just couldn't believe it. Yet, nothing shocks me anymore -- in this town, that is.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by buildomaha »

I understand where you're coming from RockHarbor. I do think this is the right idea for the farmland given nobody wants to drive a half an hour to get to Aksarben. There is nothing special enough to generate that type of demand for the area. These sort of urban pockets spread out seem like they fit in very nice. People pretty close to them will use them as an area to congregate and do their shopping etc. Also there is support with residential incorporated into this project. One thing that we definitely DO NOT need more of along Dodge is business parks. The FNB one is nice, but I'm just not a huge fan of these business parks. I like this urban idea, although the design is pretty boring with a bunch of buildings thrown down with what I think is not the most attractive modern theme.
I like the restaurants around a pond idea like in Des Moines Jordan Creek area. I think they need to start commercializing some of these reservoirs that keep being built. Or at least sections around them.
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General Mixed Use Development & Freeway Discussion

Post by RockHarbor »

buildomaha wrote:I understand where you're coming from RockHarbor. I do think this is the right idea for the farmland given nobody wants to drive a half an hour to get to Aksarben. There is nothing special enough to generate that type of demand for the area. These sort of urban pockets spread out seem like they fit in very nice. People pretty close to them will use them as an area to congregate and do their shopping etc. Also there is support with residential incorporated into this project. One thing that we definitely DO NOT need more of along Dodge is business parks. The FNB one is nice, but I'm just not a huge fan of these business parks. I like this urban idea, although the design is pretty boring with a bunch of buildings thrown down with what I think is not the most attractive modern theme.
I like the restaurants around a pond idea like in Des Moines Jordan Creek area. I think they need to start commercializing some of these reservoirs that keep being built. Or at least sections around them.
Thanks for your thoughts... :)

I'm wondering if all this is happening simply because of the fact that the widely-announced & anticipated Crossroads project seems "weak", and continually delayed, therefore, other men jumped to seize a similar project, and had an urban village plan quickly whipped-up on huge parcels of land that are finally available. Maybe they are simply trying to grab the companies/businesses that were eyeing the Crossroads development to be part of this new one instead. Wouldn't surprise me. People are so competitive. There isn't many sizable parcels of land within the built-up town to build another urban village, one that fits snugly within the built-up town, like Aksarben Village does. A dwindling Crossroads was one new "blank slate" to build upon in Central Omaha. Other than that, there are no other ones -- other than these huge parcels of land that hugged Boys Town. Am I on to something?

If so, that is NO REASON to just plop some new, cookie-cutter-looking & almost thoughtless-feeling "urban village" in the middle of West Omaha, just because....IMO. The "good of the city" is what is most important, imo. What about Oakview? What about Village Point? What about the new Crossroads we are waiting for?

As far as these damsites: I agree with your thoughts. The worst one, imo, is that damsite by Sapp Brothers & I-80, where literal junky warehouses butt-up tightly against a green park surrounding a lake. People are supposed to feel relaxed around that contrast between smokestacks & nature? Doesn't make me want to cast my rod & fish there, personally... Or, bike. Or, hike. I realize they are for flood control mostly, though.

As far as business parks: I just look at Overland Park, KS (KC's edge city) and the Denver Tech Center on GOOGLE EARTH (the amazing 3D view), and I examine what about theirs turned out so much better than ours. First off, they are bigger metropolitan areas, so they demand bigger buildings. (Even West Des Moines's skyline, as nice as it is strung along I-80, doesn't look as striking simply because their buildings are shorter, like Omaha's.) Second: They reserved large swaths of land adjacent to their interstate system, which gives plenty of room for a string of towers, parking lots, and lawns. We just cram everything tightly into Old Mill, Regency, ect. Our First National Business Park is our great one, though. I'm very pleased with the view of that when you come over the hill at 120th & Dodge. It looks great. Unfortunately, you can't see it from I-680, though.

I'm all for things built in a suburban context out there. I'm thinking that lake/restaurant idea. I think of Overland Park's "Mission Farms" development (large & ritzy-looking apartment & condo developments w/ dramatic gables & chunky chimneys, stores at their bases, and beautiful landscaping & maybe lakes with fountains). I'm thinking: Large, beautiful office complexes, like West Des Moines' Wells Fargo campus, and Athene/Aviva. Stuff of that nature... I would rather see the tight, rigid, urban design & order kept in the city -- no further out than Aksarben & Crossroads.

I ask: Does Minneapolis, KC, Des Moines, Denver, St. Louis, or Wichita have a tight, grid-orientated "urban village" plotted in the middle of their spacious suburbs? No. THEN why are we doing such a thing?? (Not only that, we are doing it with an existing 80's highschool & farm buildings attached to it.) Does Minneapolis, KC, Des Moines, Denver, St. Louis, or Wichita have an elevated expressway in their suburbs, practically scraping existing "trophy" office buildings that were built earlier? No. THEN, why do we? Omaha often seems to do WEIRD things (that feel "misguided"), and I'm growing really tired of it.

A) A suburban-style office park on our riverfront. Now empty... Company now in Chicago -- a city who would never give into their demand of a campus downtown. (I realize approving that campus really boosted Downtown Omaha in many ways. For that, I am thankful. But, still...)
B) An elevated expressway in suburbia. Furthermore, suburbia in a city of the Heartland. What other city has done such a thing?
C) A green, boxy building w/ a extremely trendy window design covering the entire broad backside (a window design most Midwest folks would not understand and predictably hate) allowed to built in the middle of Old Mill.
D) An approved urban village way out in suburbia -- a tight village of structures on an old town grid, plotted within an existing rambling world of meandering roads, cul-de-sacs, and spacious lawns. What other city has allowed that? None, or hardly none.
Last edited by RockHarbor on Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:46 pm, edited 8 times in total.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by iamjacobm »

Have you ever looked into Stapleton in Denver? Because it is everything this development should be and flies against your argument of other regional cities not having grid like urban new developments in their suburbs.

Also Wichita has an elevated highway that runs through their entire city and it is arguably the biggest eyesore I have every seen in a city.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

iamjacobm wrote:Have you ever looked into Stapleton in Denver? Because it is everything this development should be and flies against your argument of other regional cities not having grid like urban new developments in their suburbs.

Also Wichita has an elevated highway that runs through their entire city and it is arguably the biggest eyesore I have every seen in a city.
Yes, I know about Stapleton. But, that was done on a huge parcel of land that was suddenly opened up within an older part of town, just like Aksarben was. That area of town around Stapleton is built on a grid -- so it's all pre-1950. And, as you can see w/ me being fine with Aksarben & Crossroads, I have no problem with an urban village being plotted within older town that was built around the 1950's...or earlier.

No, this is equivalent to Denver allowing one in the midst of Highlands Ranch. It would be STRANGE. That's why cities don't do such a thing, imo. So, neither should we.

Yes, I've been on that elevated expressway in Wichita. It runs north & south, right? It doesn't technically run through East Wichita or Andover, which is equivalent to our West Omaha section. And, you're right: It is an eyesore -- as basically any urban elevated expressway is often considered. So, why would they run one right through Old Mill & Miracle Hills? I just can't believe they approved that -- every time I drive on it. I realize it was a difficult "urban puzzle" to solve (if only 114th & Dodge was not allowed to become a commercialized intersection, and only 120th was, than the problem would have been easier, imo). But, no matter how difficult the situation is to solve, you don't string an elevated expressway through nice West Omaha. I'm sorry... That is just a given. I think of it almost as an "urban abomination" I am so displeased with it. If I were Donald Trump, and had billions, I would likely GIVE a billion over to have it torn down, redesigned, and rebuilt, and have the suburbs of my hometown restored. That's how much I can't stand it.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by TitosBuritoBarn »

RockHarbor wrote:I ask: Does Minneapolis, KC, Des Moines, Denver, St. Louis, or Wichita have a tight, grid-orientated "urban village" plotted in the middle of their spacious suburbs?
Yes.


Minneapolis (Clover Ridge - Chaska, MN)
Image

Kansas City (Lenexa City Center - Lenexa, KS)
Image

Des Moines (West Glen Town Center/Village of Ponderosa - West Des Moines, IA):
Image

Denver (Arista - Broomfield, CO)
Image

St. Louis (New Town - St. Charles, MO)
Image

Wichita:
None, not cool enough.

Bonus: Austin (The Domain - Austin, TX)
Image

Image

Do you want us to be Austin or Wichita?


B) An elevated expressway in suburbia. Furthermore, suburbia in a city of the Heartland. What other city has done such a thing?
Texas cities. All of them. At roller coaster heights. https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4696553 ... 56!6m1!1e1
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

I appreciate your examples, and you put up a good argument. I'm not afraid to be wrong. However....

Out of the ones you posted, I was aware of the New Town outside of St. Louis (In fact, I was looking at it on Google Maps last night...wondering if I should mention it... My family used to live in St. Charles County, MO.) I've been to Austin's Domain (In fact, I had a middle age woman strike up a convo with me there, and then started shopping with me. Her son was an architect in New York City. It was kind of weird...) I was not aware of the Minneapolis, Lenexa, West Des Moines, Broomfield examples. Thanks for pointing those out to me. But, I've looked at each of them on Google Maps, and I don't feel any are quite an "apples to apples" example. I'll explain why...

By the way, even Lincoln has a little "urban style" area forming off in their northern suburban areas, that I didn't mention either, and I don't like it that well. So, I knew more were out there, if even Lincoln even has one. In fact, Salt Lake City has one in the SW section of their metro -- that is similar to Denver's Stapleton development. I'm actually surprised Omaha hasn't started an urban-style residential development out on its fringes yet. Most major cities offer at least one.

Let me clarify: I'm not against an old-fashioned, urban style (mostly residential) development built out on a city's fringes, as some people want to purchase a house w/ a detached garage, a front porch, and an alley in the back -- like in the good ole' days. So, they need somewhere they can have a new house plus that lifestyle -- if they want it. If something like this were plotted on a cornfield up near Bennington, I wouldn't object to it.

Again, you put up a good argument. I was wrong, or at least partially wrong. Some cities DO have urban style developments (including offices) in their burbs. I looked at each of them on Google Maps. However, here's why I feel better about the developments you mentioned, than Omaha's proposal:

New Town, St. Charles: On the fridges of the St. Louis metro. Mostly themed residential -- like Denver's Stapleton development. Not a perfect N/S/E/W grid. Detached from the rest of their suburbia. Not too far from Old Town St. Charles.

Arista, Bloomfield: Streets aren't a perfect grid, the development is not that big, and the streets practically blend in with widely-spaced, plotted streets surrounding a freeway, with large lots for large developments -- so there would be no strange contrast on a city map. Similarly, if Omaha plotted this over by the Cabellas & La Vista Convention Center, along I-80, I wouldn't be as against it.

Domain, Austin: It works there. It is squeezed-in tightly next to a freeway -- like our Village Point. Not a perfect grid put smack dab in the middle of residential suburbia (w/ many circles & curvy streets, a farm & high school including with it), like ours would be. Again, the Domain's streets seem a natural continuation of the streets plotted in a large office/industrial development off a freeway. Similarly, if Omaha plotted this over among the straight, wide streets of industrial business parks off I-80, near Sapp Brothers, I wouldn't object to it necessarily.

West Glen Town Center, West Des Moines:
Not a perfect grid. Right off a freeway. The streets look to be a mere continuation of the style of streets used to divide large commerical lots in the West Jordan Mall area -- so nothing looks really strange on an aerial or city map.

Clover Ridge, Chaska: Mostly residential, like New Town (St. Charles). Not a perfect grid. Again, I'm not against that type of residential development out on the fringes, for those who want that lifestyle.

NOTE: As far as Denver goes: Notice they didn't plot a perfect grid in the middle of their beloved Highlands Ranch section, on the more-desired south end of the metro (which is a world of curving streets & circles, and meandering parkways & boulevards). That's what we are kind of doing in West Omaha, though. We do have the existing farm grid here, though.

CONCLUSION: It's not just the "urban village meets suburbia" issue here. It works in several cities -- it seems. There's many more details & variables at play, I guess, in why I don't exactly like our plans in Omaha.

.........................................................................................

ELEVATED EXPRESSWAYS IN TEXAS CITIES:
Yes, I almost mentioned Dallas & Houston have areas of elevated expressway in their suburbia last night, but that's not the same, so I didn't even mention it. (I've driven on them.) Both towns are fairly flat (especially Houston), and they are sections found leading up to enormous, busy interchanges of multiple levels. I don't mind that.

Dallas had a major reconstruction on their northern outer LBJ loop (near the Galleria), but even that design was carefully done. Here's a pic: http://media.nbcdfw.com/images/1200*675 ... oseyln.jpg I've been to Austin & San Antonio both via a rental car, and I drove around both cities exploring, and although I remember sweeping freeways and very tall interchanges, I don't remember elevated expressways as a whole (except, like Dallas & Houston, leading up to an enormous interchange).

HOWEVER, I did find this picture of the Dallas area w/ a look similar to Omaha's elevated expressway: http://www.dallasnews.com/news/transpor ... ith-a-cost Look how terrible that looks, like Omaha's -- especially built on rolling terrain. And, I'm trying to figure out if that was all torn down w/ the LBJ freeway being redone.
Last edited by RockHarbor on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by TitosBuritoBarn »

Image
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

Lol. I don't want to come across that way. I'm not hard to please. I just want Omaha to do things right, do things normal. That's all...

Even in the examples you posted, it led me to looking them on Google Maps, and I realized: Most cities, if they get an "urban village" in their suburbia, plot it OFF a freeway, within an already laid-out commercial/industrial zone. So, why don't we just do that here then? Instead, there's often a "silly twist" to our version in Omaha. Ours is planned nowhere near a commercial/industrial zone off a freeway. Ours will cause a stark contrast on a city map & city aerials -- surrounded by 70's suburbia, with all its twisty streets & endless cul-de-sacs. Ours has an existing 80's high school sitting in the middle of it all, and farm buildings on the edge of it.

It is just frustrating to me...sorry -- especially when I feel neighboring Des Moines (our competitive sister city) never has a "silly twist" to anything urban they do. They just always get it right, imo. I like Des Moines a lot and like to go visit it for the day, but still, I do feel Omaha (my beloved hometown) is a more interesting & eccentric & energetic town than Des Moines, though. I'm proud of what all puts us "on the map" (the zoo, Warren Buffet, Mutual of Omaha, Omaha Steaks, the College World Series). But, because we sit in a transitional zone between Denver & Chicago, I do feel like we are more confused here on what works, design-wise, and what is truly appropriate. So, our town feels more "quirky" to me. That's not necessarily a bad thing...

However, when I go to Des Moines, I'm pleased that all their buildings & houses seem to fit under a "uniform umbrella" of design. It all matches well within a common theme. So, I'm sure designers have clear direction on what to always do there. So, everything feels done very level-headed to me. In Omaha, our suburbs are a true mix of houses from the traditional East & contemporary West (one neighborhood can look to all be house plans from Denver, sitting adjacent to a subdivision w/ plans that look imported from the Chicago area). The city is more "hodgepodge" -- which often happens in cities in a transitional zone. You don't see that in Des Moines or Minneapolis. However, I do feel like they've come up with great examples of perfect regional design that works here on the prairie (a blend of the East & the West), such as new buildings in the First National Business Park & the hotels & buildings around the La Vista Conference Center. So, I'm really happy to see that.

I could make a long list of all that I'm happy about with Omaha -- including new stuff done lately. So, I do want to make that clear. :)
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by TitosBuritoBarn »

RockHarbor wrote:Lol. I don't want to come across that way. I'm not hard to please. I just want Omaha to do things right, do things normal. That's all...

Even in the examples you posted, it led me to looking them on Google Maps, and I realized: Most cities, if they get an "urban village" in their suburbia, plot it OFF a freeway, within an already laid-out commercial/industrial zone. So, why don't we just do that here then? Instead, there's often a "silly twist" to our version in Omaha. Ours is planned nowhere near a commercial/industrial zone off a freeway. Ours will cause a stark contrast on a city map & city aerials -- surrounded by 70's suburbia, with all its twisty streets & endless cul-de-sacs. Ours has an existing 80's high school sitting in the middle of it all, and farm buildings on the edge of it.

It is just frustrating to me...sorry -- especially when I feel neighboring Des Moines (our competitive sister city) never has a "silly twist" to anything urban they do. They just always get it right, imo. I like Des Moines a lot and like to go visit it for the day, but still, I do feel Omaha (my beloved hometown) is a more interesting & eccentric & energetic town than Des Moines, though. I'm proud of what all puts us "on the map" (the zoo, Warren Buffet, Mutual of Omaha, Omaha Steaks, the College World Series). But, because we sit in a transitional zone between Denver & Chicago, I do feel like we are more confused here on what works, design-wise, and what is truly appropriate. So, our town feels more "quirky" to me. That's not necessarily a bad thing...

However, when I go to Des Moines, I'm pleased that all their buildings & houses seem to fit under a "uniform umbrella" of design. It all matches well within a common theme. So, I'm sure designers have clear direction on what to always do there. So, everything feels done very level-headed to me. In Omaha, our suburbs are a true mix of houses from the traditional East & contemporary West (one neighborhood can look to all be house plans from Denver, sitting adjacent to a subdivision w/ plans that look imported from the Chicago area). The city is more "hodgepodge" -- which often happens in cities in a transitional zone. You don't see that in Des Moines or Minneapolis. However, I do feel like they've come up with great examples of perfect regional design that works here on the prairie (a blend of the East & the West), such as new buildings in the First National Business Park & the hotels & buildings around the La Vista Conference Center. So, I'm really happy to see that.

I could make a long list of all that I'm happy about with Omaha -- including new stuff done lately. So, I do want to make that clear. :)
But West Farm will be off a freeway. Unless I'm mistaken, they're putting it against Dodge?

I get it. I used to think that way a lot and often still do. I personally have come to hate our street naming system, particularly that there seems to be a preference for establishing addresses on numbered streets even when a building is oriented on a named street. I mostly grew up on 171st St. Which means my "stripper name," which is derived from the name of your first pet and the street you grew up on, is Patches 171st.

But I think examining other cities from afar is similar to the beginning stages of dating someone. They all seem great at first, but the more you get to know them, the more their faults and annoyances come out and they're often not foreseeable. Take Des Moines for example. They built Jordan Creek Town Center - which is a lovely place - about 14 years ago.....right after enclosed malls started losing popularity. I can't think of another enclosed mall that has been built since. It's kinda like having introduced a clever touch-screen flip phone right as the smartphone is taking off.

There's comfort in knowing Omaha is "normal" and up to par with other cities. But it's not often the normal cities that make waves, especially in the midwest. Say you're at your high school reunion, what cities would you be confident and proud to tell the people there - the cute girl who turned you down for the school dance, the prom king, the class valedictorian - that you now live in? How many of those cities are just "normal" cities and how many would you consider are trying new things and striving to be different?
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

TitosBuritoBarn wrote:
But West Farm will be off a freeway. Unless I'm mistaken, they're putting it against Dodge?
I thought of the fact that it is planned adjacent to the Dodge Expressway after I had said that comment, and I signed out -- as well as the fact that is technically near a commercial area w/ large lots (the First National Business Park). And, I figured somebody would point that out. But, I just let it be... I meant a true interstate (like I-680), and a commercial/industrial area with widely-spaced, fairly straight roads for large industrial/commercial lots (like those over by I-80 & Sapp Brothers). The FN Business Park has large lots, but has a meandering, divided parkway that is characteristic of suburbia.

TitosBuritoBarn wrote:
I get it. I used to think that way a lot and often still do. I personally have come to hate our street naming system, particularly that there seems to be a preference for establishing addresses on numbered streets even when a building is oriented on a named street. I mostly grew up on 171st St. Which means my "stripper name," which is derived from the name of your first pet and the street you grew up on, is Patches 171st.

But I think examining other cities from afar is similar to the beginning stages of dating someone. They all seem great at first, but the more you get to know them, the more their faults and annoyances come out and they're often not foreseeable. Take Des Moines for example. They built Jordan Creek Town Center - which is a lovely place - about 14 years ago.....right after enclosed malls started losing popularity. I can't think of another enclosed mall that has been built since. It's kinda like having introduced a clever touch-screen flip phone right as the smartphone is taking off.

There's comfort in knowing Omaha is "normal" and up to par with other cities. But it's not often the normal cities that make waves, especially in the midwest. Say you're at your high school reunion, what cities would you be confident and proud to tell the people there - the cute girl who turned you down for the school dance, the prom king, the class valedictorian - that you now live in? How many of those cities are just "normal" cities and how many would you consider are trying new things and striving to be different?
I agree with you about the timing of Jordan Creek Mall being built as an indoor mall. In fact, I spent years & years before visiting it thinking it was their answer to an outdoor mall -- like our Village Point. That is, until I zoomed-in very close on Google Maps and realized it had a roof & skylights one day. Visiting the mall soon afterwards, I loved the interior design (the curving railings with grassy designs, the hanging lantern lights...), and knew I still loved the typical "indoor mall."

Funny, you wrote all that. After I wrote the last post here, I was thinking about the fact that maybe it is good that Omaha is "hodgepodge" a bit, and maybe it is good that isn't just another "cookie-cutter" city, that does things like everybody else. I'm still contemplating all that. In one sense, I don't want weird, strange, laughable urban decisions made here. In another sense, I don't want it to turn into just another "Austin, TX." Don't get my wrong, I like Austin, and I understand all the hype, but something turns me off ultimately about that town... Maybe because it feels like everything is planned & built to please & satisfy the hip, the youngster, the yuppie -- or something. I want some of that here (and I feel that out in Village Point a bit), but I don't want Omaha to necessarily have that its entire focus.

Good points.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by buildomaha »

I love the variety that we can create in this city. It's better than than boring uniform blocks for miles. Also I understand where you're coming from with the whole dodge raised up on bridges but most people in west O are a lot happier with quicker travel than with a nice view of that FNB building.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

buildomaha wrote:I love the variety that we can create in this city. It's better than than boring uniform blocks for miles. Also I understand where you're coming from with the whole dodge raised up on bridges but most people in west O are a lot happier with quicker travel than with a nice view of that FNB building.
Exactly. I'm aware that while I'm groaning about the aesthetics of it, other people are thinking "Traffic problem solved. Clap, clap, clap!" They don't care how the aesthetics of the area are now all messed-up. They only care about getting home quicker. (I do think average people do maybe notice, but they don't really think about it too much. For example, I'm surprised how many Omahans mentioned not liking the Ameritrade building in Old Mill. You see articles on "The Building Most New Yorkers Hate." Stuff like that...)

Even if traffic would have had to continue to inconveniently snarl at rush hour at 114th & Dodge, I think that is still better than the unsightly elevated expressway we have now, to relieve some of it. Even now, the expressway's traffic snarls from Westroads all the way out to 156th Street at rush hour. So, what was really solved? And, you can bet it is going to continue to get worse as Omaha grows. In any big city in the country, people have to deal with hours of snarling traffic. Why do we feel that we get to escape that here? I agree that I get impatient sometimes in Omaha & expect quicker commute times, and then I remind myself it is nothing compared to some cities. I also remind myself that if I move off to a bigger city, I better get used to it.

Things like aesthetics & design are very important. I read architectural criticism all the time. I love reading an architectural guide to a city, and seeing what the author/critic has to say. I usually agree w/ their eye & thinking. (For example, I just got "Dallas Architecture: 1936-1986." The author's writing is sooo good. He describes Dallas perfectly, imo.) It's surprising how good something can look on a paper plan (or a 3D computer plan), but then, they build it, and the plaza at the base of a skyscraper is surprisingly unsuccessful -- it is empty & windswept & uninviting to humans. But, then another one nearby, which looked the same on paper (or maybe even less interesting), turns out to be the place everyone hangs out, and is drawn to during the work day. All the variables & dynamics at play are interesting to me...

I just want Omaha to function & feel & look its best -- all three. That's all...
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by Linkin5 »

Yeah I'll take my much shorter commute with the Dodge Expressway over aesthetics in that area, those intersections used to be disasters.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by Omaha_corn_burner »

Linkin5 wrote:Yeah I'll take my much shorter commute with the Dodge Expressway over aesthetics in that area, those intersections used to be disasters.
I drive this area every day. The expressway has made such a HUGE difference. It's fantastic.
I also drive under the expressway almost every day, and I think it looks good.

I can drive from Fremont to Westroads in about 20-25 minutes. Amazing. 65MPH speed limit and no stop lights
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

I'm glad you two are happy with it. I'm glad it has made such a difference to you and to other commuters.

I remember that 114th & Dodge expressway was starting to really back-up at rush hour growing up, but I lived away from Omaha for just over a decade, returning in late 2008, and I don't know how bad the problem there really became. It must have been really bad... It's obvious they needed to do something.

I also would be bugged if no exit was actually put there, just one intersection short of I-680, if the rest of West Dodge was a freeway out to Fremont. So, I'm glad West Dodge Road is ALL an actual freeway that ties-in with I-680.

Again: I was never against them putting an actual exit there, nor feeling the absolute need to. I realize it was a tough thing with 114th so commercialized, and squeezed tightly between I-680 and 120th Street. I just wish they would have "bit the bullet" and eliminated some businesses around at least 3 of the corners, taking away the need to even construct an elevated expressway. I wish they would have just kept the existing 120th exit intact, and simply made 114th go under Dodge, or maybe above it, and had at least 2-3 exit ramps there -- maybe making the people already shopping/eating/working in Miracle Hills simply venture over to 120th & Dodge to have access to Dodge. There are many cities that, due to difficulties, don't have a "full intersection" at some points along their freeway/interstate. We allowed that at 'F' and 'Q' street along I-80, for example. It's a little inconvenient sometimes, but so what...
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

Also, I was thinking about after I left the forum: Think of the difference simply an exit at Blondo & I-680 would make (with the continuing growth of NW Omaha). It definitely would have relieved West Dodge & West Maple traffic somewhat. (However, it has only been in recent years that Blondo was even widened that far west.) Because I-680 was designed w/ no exit at Blondo, the city has developed tightly around it. So, I'm sure it would be a challenge even putting exit ramps there. But, that sure would be nice. (In this case, I've seen exit ramps put in the middle, or very tightly along the freeway, in other cities. But, then...the Blondo exit wouldn't nicely match all the others, and that would bug me...) :-)
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by buildomaha »

RockHarbor wrote:Also, I was thinking about after I left the forum: Think of the difference simply an exit at Blondo & I-680 would make (with the continuing growth of NW Omaha). It definitely would have relieved West Dodge & West Maple traffic somewhat. (However, it has only been in recent years that Blondo was even widened that far west.) Because I-680 was designed w/ no exit at Blondo, the city has developed tightly around it. So, I'm sure it would be a challenge even putting exit ramps there. But, that sure would be nice. (In this case, I've seen exit ramps put in the middle, or very tightly along the freeway, in other cities. But, then...the Blondo exit wouldn't nicely match all the others, and that would bug me...) :-)
Thinking about this and your other comment regarding traffic, one of my biggest pet peeves with the city and state right now is the lack of thinking ahead for future traffic. Dodge already backs up enough at rush hour and there is no other expressway or interstate in west Omaha. Other cities like KC and cities in Texas continually add on beltways to alleviate the traffic and make it easier to travel about the city. I understand how building out with roads encourages suburban sprawl but I think we're kind of stuck at this point because the city continues to allow development along main corriders for commercial like maple, but when you have these corridors you need other ways to get to other parts of the city other than the 1 main expressway. There also are many residential developments and other developments being buil right now preventing space for and interstate to be created. And we don't have any room on any of our roads to pull another turn the main road into an expressway (Dodge) because everything is zoned right up to the intersections of some of the streets that would be a good option to do the same thing as they did with Dodge.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

buildomaha wrote:
RockHarbor wrote:Also, I was thinking about after I left the forum: Think of the difference simply an exit at Blondo & I-680 would make (with the continuing growth of NW Omaha). It definitely would have relieved West Dodge & West Maple traffic somewhat. (However, it has only been in recent years that Blondo was even widened that far west.) Because I-680 was designed w/ no exit at Blondo, the city has developed tightly around it. So, I'm sure it would be a challenge even putting exit ramps there. But, that sure would be nice. (In this case, I've seen exit ramps put in the middle, or very tightly along the freeway, in other cities. But, then...the Blondo exit wouldn't nicely match all the others, and that would bug me...) :-)
Thinking about this and your other comment regarding traffic, one of my biggest pet peeves with the city and state right now is the lack of thinking ahead for future traffic. Dodge already backs up enough at rush hour and there is no other expressway or interstate in west Omaha. Other cities like KC and cities in Texas continually add on beltways to alleviate the traffic and make it easier to travel about the city. I understand how building out with roads encourages suburban sprawl but I think we're kind of stuck at this point because the city continues to allow development along main corriders for commercial like maple, but when you have these corridors you need other ways to get to other parts of the city other than the 1 main expressway. There also are many residential developments and other developments being buil right now preventing space for and interstate to be created. And we don't have any room on any of our roads to pull another turn the main road into an expressway (Dodge) because everything is zoned right up to the intersections of some of the streets that would be a good option to do the same thing as they did with Dodge.
I hear ya... I've never been that thrilled about Omaha's interstate system layout. It made sense somewhat when they laid it out and built it in the 1960's, I feel. It was basically just stringing I-80 south of the main city core (to avoid tearing out too much existing town), then looping a spur off of it north to downtown, and looping a beltway around the western fringes of the city.

I understand why you feel West Dodge Road is not sufficient w/ the way the town is growing. It has the odd feel of a E/W street-turned-freeway (as it is). It oddly connects w/ I-680 a few miles north of I-80, so it isn't quite a "clean connection" to Omaha's major highway system. I feel it does help zoom one out to the farthest western reaches of Omaha, if you're conveniently nearby to catch it. But, still...

If you live just south of Bennington in a new subdivision, let's say, and you want to get Downtown Omaha, and you do not want to go through Florence/North Omaha to get there, and you want to be on a freeway the entire time, so you drive down 156th to catch West Dodge, then there's still quite a swerving journey ahead of you....one w/ some backtracking North & South, and East & West.

I always wish they could have used the Union Pacific railroad track as an existing "carved trail" to fit-in a West Omaha highway (and reroute the track someplace else). I'm not sure there would have been enough room, but I would have loved if you came west from downtown on I-80, then upon reaching the I-680 interchange, you would have had the choice to continue on west from there. The freeway would have turned northwest (following the railway bed), allowing you to exit the main streets (120th, 132nd, 144th/Center, Pacific, Dodge, Blondo) further out in West Omaha. With that snaking through our suburbs at an angle, it would have been fairly easy to catch it from anywhere out in West Omaha, and put you on a convenient course to Downtown Omaha. Eventually, it would have connected nicely w/ the major highway to Fremont in the town of Waterloo. So, we would have still had the "Omaha to Fremont freeway" thing going on. (And, 114th & Dodge could have been left alone.)

And, I wish I-680 could continue northward along the Highway 133 bed, curving eastward south of Blair, and making a "clean connection w/ I-680 in Iowa. It would totally open Northern Douglas County for exciting new development, including the chance to get a nice, suburban office skyline strung along an interstate, and maybe even a new major mall. The existing northern portion of I-680 could remain, or be turned into a highway/street (like West Maple Rd), or just be torn out. (I want it torn out, I think. Is it that important for the little town of Crescent, Iowa and the northern, woodsy fringes of Omaha to have a freeway out to West Omaha or to I-29? I don't think so...)
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by buildomaha »

RockHarbor wrote:
buildomaha wrote:
RockHarbor wrote:Also, I was thinking about after I left the forum: Think of the difference simply an exit at Blondo & I-680 would make (with the continuing growth of NW Omaha). It definitely would have relieved West Dodge & West Maple traffic somewhat. (However, it has only been in recent years that Blondo was even widened that far west.) Because I-680 was designed w/ no exit at Blondo, the city has developed tightly around it. So, I'm sure it would be a challenge even putting exit ramps there. But, that sure would be nice. (In this case, I've seen exit ramps put in the middle, or very tightly along the freeway, in other cities. But, then...the Blondo exit wouldn't nicely match all the others, and that would bug me...) :-)
Thinking about this and your other comment regarding traffic, one of my biggest pet peeves with the city and state right now is the lack of thinking ahead for future traffic. Dodge already backs up enough at rush hour and there is no other expressway or interstate in west Omaha. Other cities like KC and cities in Texas continually add on beltways to alleviate the traffic and make it easier to travel about the city. I understand how building out with roads encourages suburban sprawl but I think we're kind of stuck at this point because the city continues to allow development along main corriders for commercial like maple, but when you have these corridors you need other ways to get to other parts of the city other than the 1 main expressway. There also are many residential developments and other developments being buil right now preventing space for and interstate to be created. And we don't have any room on any of our roads to pull another turn the main road into an expressway (Dodge) because everything is zoned right up to the intersections of some of the streets that would be a good option to do the same thing as they did with Dodge.
I hear ya... I've never been that thrilled about Omaha's interstate system layout. It made sense somewhat when they laid it out and built it in the 1960's, I feel. It was basically just stringing I-80 south of the main city core (to avoid tearing out too much existing town), then looping a spur off of it north to downtown, and looping a beltway around the western fringes of the city.

I understand why you feel West Dodge Road is not sufficient w/ the way the town is growing. It has the odd feel of a E/W street-turned-freeway (as it is). It oddly connects w/ I-680 a few miles north of I-80, so it isn't quite a "clean connection" to Omaha's major highway system. I feel it does help zoom one out to the farthest western reaches of Omaha, if you're conveniently nearby to catch it. But, still...

If you live just south of Bennington in a new subdivision, let's say, and you want to get Downtown Omaha, and you do not want to go through Florence/North Omaha to get there, and you want to be on a freeway the entire time, so you drive down 156th to catch West Dodge, then there's still quite a swerving journey ahead of you....one w/ some backtracking North & South, and East & West.

I always wish they could have used the Union Pacific railroad track as an existing "carved trail" to fit-in a West Omaha highway (and reroute the track someplace else). I'm not sure there would have been enough room, but I would have loved if you came west from downtown on I-80, then upon reaching the I-680 interchange, you would have had the choice to continue on west from there. The freeway would have turned northwest (following the railway bed), allowing you to exit the main streets (120th, 132nd, 144th/Center, Pacific, Dodge, Blondo) further out in West Omaha. With that snaking through our suburbs at an angle, it would have been fairly easy to catch it from anywhere out in West Omaha, and put you on a convenient course to Downtown Omaha. Eventually, it would have connected nicely w/ the major highway to Fremont in the town of Waterloo. So, we would have still had the "Omaha to Fremont freeway" thing going on. (And, 114th & Dodge could have been left alone.)

And, I wish I-680 could continue northward along the Highway 133 bed, curving eastward south of Blair, and making a "clean connection w/ I-680 in Iowa. It would totally open Northern Douglas County for exciting new development, including the chance to get a nice, suburban office skyline strung along an interstate, and maybe even a new major mall. The existing northern portion of I-680 could remain, or be turned into a highway/street (like West Maple Rd), or just be torn out. (I want it torn out, I think. Is it that important for the little town of Crescent, Iowa and the northern, woodsy fringes of Omaha to have a freeway out to West Omaha or to I-29? I don't think so...)
I like the way you think!
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

buildomaha wrote: I like the way you think!
Glad we see eye-to-eye... I remember looking at an Omaha map when I was a young teen, and wishing a freeway could simply continue westward from the I-80/I-680 interchange. Then, I noticed there was technically a space there with those tracks... That was before West Dodge Road was ever an expressway, or an Omaha-Fremont freeway connection was important.

Can you imagine driving west from Downtown Omaha on I-80, and having an easy drive all the way out to Village Point or Elkhorn -- or even the Oakview Mall area, or 156th & Pacific area? Man, that would be nice & convenient... Can you imagine coming back from Des Moines, and taking the I-680 exit to "North Omaha Suburbs", and eventually crossing over the Missouri River just south of Blair, then the freeway turns you southward through new & developing residential/shopping/office areas before you ever get to Fort, Maple, Dodge? It would be pretty cool, I think. It would also be nice to be driving north on I-680, passing through the Center, Pacific, Dodge, Maple, and Fort exits, and knowing there is much more (newer) city still ahead of you to the north. Omaha would seem much bigger, I think.

I cannot stand freeway connections that aren't "clean connections." When playing SimCity years ago, I would bulldoze established areas just to get that clean, perfect freeway connection. But, that's just a game. This is real life. However, sometimes I wish the city would just get more a "Bulldoze It!" mindset, to accomplish better things, and just get it done right. Seriously, if it isn't some historic mansion, or "birthplace of a president" in the way, then I say "Bulldoze It!" (Of course, I realize people are sometimes emotionally attached to their homes. Of course, I believe in giving the property owner a good deal, and nice chunk of change.) Still, I just don't think some average "ho hum" house, or structure, is worth the grander good of the city.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

By the way, talking about planning ahead, I forgot to mention: If you look at Highway 133 closely, it almost appears to me that they are leaving room possibly for future freeway exits. At new industrial developments between State St and Rainwood Rd, they curve the road inward at both intersections, leaving plenty of room for future exit ramps at that major cross street -- possibly. (Course, Thomas Creek may be the reason at State St.) Still, I wonder if they are eventually planning a freeway-type highway to Blair? I betcha' they are. (Now, I'm wondering: If Highway 133 is a freeway someday, how are they going to reconfigure the interchange where 133 crosses I-680?)
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by Omababe »

I also think the Dodge Expressway is great. I'll often take it if I drive in using 168th. I've also wondered why there is no exit on Blondo from 680. I assume that it was because when it was build, the growth on Blondo out there was not enough to justify it.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by buildomaha »

RockHarbor wrote:
buildomaha wrote: I like the way you think!
Glad we see eye-to-eye... I remember looking at an Omaha map when I was a young teen, and wishing a freeway could simply continue westward from the I-80/I-680 interchange. Then, I noticed there was technically a space there with those tracks... That was before West Dodge Road was ever an expressway, or an Omaha-Fremont freeway connection was important.

Can you imagine driving west from Downtown Omaha on I-80, and having an easy drive all the way out to Village Point or Elkhorn -- or even the Oakview Mall area, or 156th & Pacific area? Man, that would be nice & convenient... Can you imagine coming back from Des Moines, and taking the I-680 exit to "North Omaha Suburbs", and eventually crossing over the Missouri River just south of Blair, then the freeway turns you southward through new & developing residential/shopping/office areas before you ever get to Fort, Maple, Dodge? It would be pretty cool, I think. It would also be nice to be driving north on I-680, passing through the Center, Pacific, Dodge, Maple, and Fort exits, and knowing there is much more (newer) city still ahead of you to the north. Omaha would seem much bigger, I think.

I cannot stand freeway connections that aren't "clean connections." When playing SimCity years ago, I would bulldoze established areas just to get that clean, perfect freeway connection. But, that's just a game. This is real life. However, sometimes I wish the city would just get more a "Bulldoze It!" mindset, to accomplish better things, and just get it done right. Seriously, if it isn't some historic mansion, or "birthplace of a president" in the way, then I say "Bulldoze It!" (Of course, I realize people are sometimes emotionally attached to their homes. Of course, I believe in giving the property owner a good deal, and nice chunk of change.) Still, I just don't think some average "ho hum" house, or structure, is worth the grander good of the city.
I support the "bulldoze" mindset if it is really necessary. Out where all of the developments and houses are brand new it's a waste of resources though. And it's almost like a Great Wall of residential is being created along the western edges of the city preventing freeways from going through.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by buildomaha »

RockHarbor wrote:By the way, talking about planning ahead, I forgot to mention: If you look at Highway 133 closely, it almost appears to me that they are leaving room possibly for future freeway exits. At new industrial developments between State St and Rainwood Rd, they curve the road inward at both intersections, leaving plenty of room for future exit ramps at that major cross street -- possibly. (Course, Thomas Creek may be the reason at State St.) Still, I wonder if they are eventually planning a freeway-type highway to Blair? I betcha' they are. (Now, I'm wondering: If Highway 133 is a freeway someday, how are they going to reconfigure the interchange where 133 crosses I-680?)
Also there's plenty of room to adjust the interchange I think. I've always wandered why Blair is almost ignored and not considered for a freeway or anything...
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

BuildOmaha: I think why you feel that way is because I don't feel there really is officially a chance that there will be another loop (similar to I-680) strung around Omaha on the east side of the Platte/Elkhorn River Valley (which is higher land/hills Omaha is continuing to be built upon). There is just no way. They've let the area around Pacific & West Center Road develop thoroughly all the way to the edge of the river valley -- as you've been noticing. Therefore, if a new western loop someday, I'm sure it will be put-in on the existing N-S highways down in the valley, or maybe strung through on the higher farmland just west of the Platte/Elkhorn River Valley, near Yutan.

If you examine the new, wonderfully convenient bridge they built over the Missouri south of Bellevue (connecting to I-29), I'm sure that is the start of a southern beltway that eventually will be strung around the south part of the metro, leading all the way out to I-80 possibly. From that interchange, the possible new western loop may continue on north. I'm not sure...but I'm guessing that.

Blair is only around 7-8,000 people, so it makes sense that Fremont (pop 25,000 or so) has the freeway connection to Omaha first. But, it does look like (to me), that "Blair Highway" is being set up for a new freeway possibly. How exciting if it is.

Omababe: Glad you like the West Dodge Expressway. Don't get me wrong, besides the elevated portion, I like it, too. I just don't like it as our "substitute" for a western freeway. But, that is what it is likely -- and always will be. With the fact that the 120th St exit ramps were built way back, and they always built back from Dodge west from there (along the entire roadway, besides 114th), I'm wondering if it was always kind of planned as an expressway. ?? I can remember them building the Hy-Vee at 132nd & Dodge around 1990, and announcing they were building an exit there, too. After 132nd, exits were soon put-in at 144th, 156th, 168th, and so on....

BLONDO EXIT: When they strung I-680 through, there was hardly anything out there, justifying a limited amount of exits. Also, West Maple Road was taken from its original meandering course, and brought at a direct angle southward, so it crosses I-680 a little closer to West Dodge Road than it originally would have. Therefore, the space for a Blondo exit is fairly tight. Yet, it could still fit -- I'm sure. I was looking at that area the other day, and if OPPD gave up some of their land there, they could fit a straight & circular ramp on the NW corner. They could probably fit another straight ramp on the other side. It wouldn't need to be a full-fledged intersection necessarily, imo.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by BRoss »

I feel like Blair High Road should be converted to a freeway. It would make sense. As for why there isn't an interchange at Blondo - it's too close to Maple. That would cause an even bigger mess. You have to remember that around I-680, Maple is further south - 2900 N vs 3700 N a mile west. Freeway interchanges should never be closer than a mile apart. You see the problems it causes on Dodge with Boys Town and 150th St - two interchanges I would love to see go.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by BRoss »

Oh, as for the Dodge Expressway not connecting with cleanly with I-80 - years ago they planned on a freeway north of Dodge from I-480 to I-680. It would have been nice to have built that and eliminated some traffic from I-80. I-80 is a nightmare. It always backs up and needs to be widened more and more all the time. I wouldn't be surprised to see it 14 lanes (12 through + auxiliary on each side) all the way between 480 and 680 in the near future. It's already 13 between 42nd and 480.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by Dundeemaha »

HR Paperstacks wrote:Oh, as for the Dodge Expressway not connecting with cleanly with I-80 - years ago they planned on a freeway north of Dodge from I-480 to I-680. It would have been nice to have built that and eliminated some traffic from I-80. I-80 is a nightmare. It always backs up and needs to be widened more and more all the time. I wouldn't be surprised to see it 14 lanes (12 through + auxiliary on each side) all the way between 480 and 680 in the near future. It's already 13 between 42nd and 480.
Gutting more neighborhoods in Omaha for a freeway that would be worse than I-80 since it would have displaced a large amount of Midtown's population out west would have been terrible.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

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I-480/the North Freeway is planned to be attached w/ I-680 eventually -- just over the river in Iowa. I've seen the plan, and you can see the open space for the future freeway kinda near the airport on the Storz Expressway. It will basically connect w/ that first exit east of the Mormon Bridge. I'm really glad... Finally, it will connect, and people on the north side will have a direct link w/ Downtown Omaha.

However, I'm growing tired of Omaha's little "bandages" put on things to tide things over... It just feels like we get parkways instead of freeways (the Sorensen). We have major freeways that stop short of other major ones, and are left not connected (the North Freeway and I-680). And, when they are connected years later, they have to oddly snake the connection through off a spur into the neighboring state (I'm talking the connection I spoke of, planned off the Storz into Iowa). We have our "main E-W drag" (Dodge St), our "Broadway" lined with businesses, suddenly converted into an expressway west of I-680 (anybody looking at a map can see it isn't a natural interstate).

I'm very much a map-orientated person. I like a good-looking map of a city & a good-looking freeway system. And, many cities have a great, laid-out freeway system w/ many smooth, clean connections. (I think of the Texas cities, Denver, Kansas City, Phoenix, Indianapolis, Columbus, Chicago, Boston, Atlanta, Des Moines, Minneapolis-St. Paul, ect.) I just feel ours is semi-strange, and it maybe keeps getting stranger. Not to complain... I think the southern new freeway will look good, though -- especially if it leads out to a new western loop.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by Joe_Sovereign »

I am not a fan of more Freeways but if you wanted to lower traffic on I-80 in Omaha the easiest way would be to build a connector between I-29 and I-80 south of Bellevue connecting to I-80 near Nebraska Crossing. The whole route is still nearly all farmland.

A lot of cross country traffic might take this way to avoid Omaha Traffic and anyone coming east on 80 planning to go south on 29 or the reverse coming north on 29 planning on going west on 80 would have a short cut diverting them from being on I-80 in the City.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by Omaha_corn_burner »

So you want to turn Platteview Road into an Interstate? Okay. Seems like an odd suggestion for the Boys Town development.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by nebraska »

Omaha_corn_burner wrote:So you want to turn Platteview Road into an Interstate? Okay. Seems like an odd suggestion for the Boys Town development.
There is a plan to turn Platteview into a highway... http://platteviewroad.com/

But yeah, This isn't related to the topic at hand.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

I knew it! You can just tell... Also, Platteview Road is at the perfect distance from I-80 to be a southern freeway.

Also, I'm wondering if the southern freeway will connect at I-80 (out near Gretna) to a new western loop? I bet so... Yet, that link to that study doesn't show such a thing.

I'm also wondering if they are planning for Highway 133 to be a freeway all the way up to Blair. Or, possibly curving a freeway NW from Highway 133 onto Highway 36 (through Bennington), eventually connecting with a new western loop (out between Bennington & Fremont)? I was looking at Bennington closely, and I noticed they curved the frontage road at 156th St, possibly indicating room left open for possible furture exit ramps at Highway 36 and 156th St. Not sure...
Last edited by RockHarbor on Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: Boys Town and farmland (144th Dodge)

Post by RockHarbor »

Also: I can't tell if Sarpy County alone is being aggressive about its new growth (and projected growth), or if Omaha & the State of Nebraska kinda want most of the new Omaha-area growth to be down there as well? It just feels like that to me -- for some reason.

I would think Omaha would feel competitive keeping new growth in Douglas County over Sarpy. I do notice they are widening that Highway 133 northward (and, of course, created the West Dodge Expressway & widened West Maple Road). They are building that new damsite. There's talk of a new Omaha highschool in NW Omaha. There's this Boys Town development announced. So, there are projects that reveal they are planning for growth, and want new growth, in Douglas County. But, that new growth in West/Northwest Omaha is just a given -- as Omaha has always grown that direction.

But, more than ever, I just feel like the pendulum is swinging to Sarpy County being the "hot zone" for development. And, I feel Omaha maybe wants it... Or, it just feels like Omaha isn't really threatened, or bothered. It's part of our metro, of course. But, I'm still surprised.

If so, why? Is it because Omaha's finally hitting the river valley barrier to the west, and they know will be tough for development to really take-off on the immediate north/northwest side, being too close to North Omaha? Is it because they know I-80 (leading to downtown) will become even more of a centralized, busy corridor with the city bulking-out to the south? Just wondering...
I can get pushed out because I'm "too much" for some. Then, an observer of me comes suddenly swooping in to "fill my shoes." People are always more accepting of the new one, because their feathers aren't truly ruffled by them. (Yawn) I can count on it every time.
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Re: General Mixed Use Development & Freeway Discussion

Post by NEDodger »

Love your enthusiasm about Omaha.

Hate that I don't understand what some of the posts have to do with the topic at hand.

I have the feeling the feeling that if infrastructure begins on this and Crossroads hasn't broken ground yet, Crossroads isn't happening. The people who would have lived at Crossroads and prefer the east half of Omaha will live in Midtown Crossing Phase 2. The people who would have lived at Crossroads and prefer the west half of Omaha will instead live here.
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Re: General Mixed Use Development & Freeway Discussion

Post by choke »

NEDodger wrote:Love your enthusiasm about Omaha.

Hate that I don't understand what some of the posts have to do with the topic at hand.

I have the feeling the feeling that if infrastructure begins on this and Crossroads hasn't broken ground yet, Crossroads isn't happening. The people who would have lived at Crossroads and prefer the east half of Omaha will live in Midtown Crossing Phase 2. The people who would have lived at Crossroads and prefer the west half of Omaha will instead live here.
Crossroads will get done. It might not be Yates or the scale of the plans currently. Probably become a strip mall like L Street or Sorenson. I just hope Yates doesn't continue to slum it with temp leases. Sword shops and Halloween outlets.
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Re: General Mixed Use Development & Freeway Discussion

Post by buildomaha »

RockHarbor wrote:Also: I can't tell if Sarpy County alone is being aggressive about its new growth (and projected growth), or if Omaha & the State of Nebraska kinda want most of the new Omaha-area growth to be down there as well? It just feels like that to me -- for some reason.

I would think Omaha would feel competitive keeping new growth in Douglas County over Sarpy. I do notice they are widening that Highway 133 northward (and, of course, created the West Dodge Expressway & widened West Maple Road). They are building that new damsite. There's talk of a new Omaha highschool in NW Omaha. There's this Boys Town development announced. So, there are projects that reveal they are planning for growth, and want new growth, in Douglas County. But, that new growth in West/Northwest Omaha is just a given -- as Omaha has always grown that direction.

But, more than ever, I just feel like the pendulum is swinging to Sarpy County being the "hot zone" for development. And, I feel Omaha maybe wants it... Or, it just feels like Omaha isn't really threatened, or bothered. It's part of our metro, of course. But, I'm still surprised.

If so, why? Is it because Omaha's finally hitting the river valley barrier to the west, and they know will be tough for development to really take-off on the immediate north/northwest side, being too close to North Omaha? Is it because they know I-80 (leading to downtown) will become even more of a centralized, busy corridor with the city bulking-out to the south? Just wondering...
Omaha has been growing south/west in the elkhorn, Gretna, papillon direction for a while now and that won't stop soon but more development is starting to happen again northwest rather than the other way around I think.
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