Urban vs Suburban Debate

General discussion on all things Omaha.

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Zilla
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Post by Zilla »

TechnicalDisaster wrote:I use the term McMansion all the time, I'm not offended by it (I live in one) - but the term is slang and should not be used in professional writing.
Bingo!
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Proudly oppressing the rest of Omaha with my suburbia lifestyle since 1999.
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Post by joeglow »

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:Yes, but who's the judge of unbiased content? You? See, that presents a problem.

Joeglow, the subject of the thread is "urban vs. suburban", and as such, the last two articles I have posted are completely relevant. They're not trying to "prove" the superiority of urban living (that conclusion is left for the reader to arrive at), but merely showing and discussing what is occurring right now in the US in terms of land-use, crime, consumer preferences, etc.
Not in Omaha:

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Omah ... 66773.html
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iamjacobm
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Post by iamjacobm »

I thought the new figures were pretty low.  I expected much more city growth, but after giving it some thought the condo "boom" we had mid decade was only a few handful of people compared to the entire city population.  Omaha has grown in the past decades by suburban development and now that Omaha is covering a large area the new suburbs had to find somewhere else to go, namely Sarpy.  

That will be the biggest question this decade does Omaha have the ability to become denser?  Will future development's find funding like RFP or end up holes in the ground like Wallstreet or one story strip malls like 80 Dodge?  I had imagined that Omaha had become a far more dense city especially east of 72nd street b/c of the AMAZING developments that the city has had, but then looking at all those fantastic projects the city has enjoyed during the 00's you begin to realize it is a very small start to what the city needs to do if it want's to continue to thrive.

Where did we think those 50,000 over estimated residents went?  I will admit it was foolish to think a majority went to the actual city when there literally isn't the infrastructure or available housing in the city proper for that many people.

This needs to be Omaha's "Manhattan" point (I just made that up I decided it means the city has reached its physical land limits.)  This will continue to be the trend if Omaha doesn't create the necessary infrastructure to support the growth it wants.  Build the streetcars, find a way to help new projects off the ground, make it attractive/affordable to live from Midtown to the river and did I mention build the streetcars?

Until the city is even more aggressive than it is now about strengthening it's core it will continue to come up short.

And for the record I am ALL for the growth the surround cities are experiencing this was more just realizing how much farther the city needs to go even though it has seen amazing development the past 10 years.

(Sorry if that was rambling and didn't make a whole lot of sense I was planning on organizing my thoughts on the matter this weekend, but decided to spew it out now)
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nativeomahan
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Post by nativeomahan »

There is always the strong possibility that the census bureau used outdated city limit lines in coming up with their figures.  This has happened repeatedly in past censuses.
Douglas County as a whole experienced strong growth.  That should be the headline.
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S33
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Post by S33 »

iamjacobm wrote:This needs to be Omaha's "Manhattan" point (I just made that up I decided it means the city has reached its physical land limits.)  This will continue to be the trend if Omaha doesn't create the necessary infrastructure to support the growth it wants.  Build the streetcars, find a way to help new projects off the ground, make it attractive/affordable to live from Midtown to the river and did I mention build the streetcars?
Are you sure it's not our "Sputnik moment?"  :)
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Post by ricko »

There was a population "undercount" for Omaha during the 1980 or '90 census (I think it was about 20-30k short).  It was officially revised a few years later by the census bureau.  I think we might be dealing with the same thing now.  I think it was revised when they looked at the number of residential water meters/electric power customers and factored in the average # of people per household, or something like that.  Anyway, the numbers are important because of the way the Fed doles out 'revenue sharing' funds.  An under-count means a loss of federal dollars.
StreetsOfOmaha
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

Zilla wrote:
TechnicalDisaster wrote:I use the term McMansion all the time, I'm not offended by it (I live in one) - but the term is slang and should not be used in professional writing.
Bingo!
No, not bingo at all! Are you serious? Slang shouldn't be used in professional writing? I don't think the New York Times, Newsweek, Time, Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune, et al. got the memo.

iamjacobm, there are actually some pretty amazing tools that planners and cities have at their disposal to conserve open space and encourage building within existing cities, namely using TDR (Transfer of Development Rights) which is really only in its youth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_o ... ent_rights
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Post by cdub »

ricko wrote:There was a population "undercount" for Omaha during the 1980 or '90 census (I think it was about 20-30k short).  It was officially revised a few years later by the census bureau.  I think we might be dealing with the same thing now.  I think it was revised when they looked at the number of residential water meters/electric power customers and factored in the average # of people per household, or something like that.  Anyway, the numbers are important because of the way the Fed doles out 'revenue sharing' funds.  An under-count means a loss of federal dollars.
Its actually possible to make money, at least in some ways, with an under count, if that's what happened.  A slower growth rate and presumably a higher percentage of low incomes (if north and south Omaha were not shown as net losers of people) means more in the way of CDBG and others.  Not that this is what anyone is hoping to achieve.
StreetsOfOmaha
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

This is a good article that explains a lot of what's happening in cities and suburbs. I'm not looking for the firing squad, it's just a good, informative read.

http://urbanland.uli.org/Articles/2011/Mar/McMahonStrip
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iamjacobm
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Post by iamjacobm »

I would be ecstatic if Best Buy would match what they have in that article at their 74th location to go along with the Crossroads redevelopment.
TechnicalDisaster
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Post by TechnicalDisaster »

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:This is a good article that explains a lot of what's happening in cities and suburbs. I'm not looking for the firing squad, it's just a good, informative read.

http://urbanland.uli.org/Articles/2011/Mar/McMahonStrip
I agree. Excellent article - thanks for sharing.
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Big E
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Post by Big E »

I would agree, although I would like to see the raw data backing up the anecdotal evidence.
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S33
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Post by S33 »

Yeah, good article. Something that everyone here has agreed upon since I can remember. I still don't see anything in that article about everyone ditching their cars, though.
TechnicalDisaster
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Post by TechnicalDisaster »

S33 wrote:Yeah, good article. Something that everyone here has agreed upon since I can remember. I still don't see anything in that article about everyone ditching their cars, though.
Did Streets claim the article was about ditching cars?
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StreetsOfOmaha
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

Well, I'm glad you guys enjoyed the read!

I agree, E, about wanting to see the raw data.

TechDis, thanks for your comment(s). That is just another in the myriad examples of where, regardless of what I say, S33 paints me as an extremist and can't get past his one-track mind of retaliation and provocation.
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S33
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Post by S33 »

TechnicalDisaster wrote:
S33 wrote:Yeah, good article. Something that everyone here has agreed upon since I can remember. I still don't see anything in that article about everyone ditching their cars, though.
Did Streets claim the article was about ditching cars?
How dare I suspect his motives are similar to the other 5,000 articles he's posted...on the same subject.
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

S33 wrote:Yeah, good article. Something that everyone here has agreed upon since I can remember. I still don't see anything in that article about everyone ditching their cars, though.
And anyway... really? With all that talk (supported by economic data, expert opinions, and retail trends) of popular demand for walkability and the obsolescence of auto-oriented and -dependent strip centers and single-use suburban developments, you didn't catch that fairly obvious subtext?
"The right to have access to every building in the city by private motorcar in an age when everyone possesses such a vehicle is actually the right to destroy the city."
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S33
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Post by S33 »

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:
S33 wrote:Yeah, good article. Something that everyone here has agreed upon since I can remember. I still don't see anything in that article about everyone ditching their cars, though.
And anyway... really? With all that talk (supported by economic data, expert opinions, and retail trends) of popular demand for walkability and the obsolescence of auto-oriented and -dependent strip centers and single-use suburban developments, you didn't catch that fairly obvious subtext?

Enlighten everyone, Streets. Tell everyone what the obvious subtext is. And feel free to not sugar coat it.
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Big E
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Post by Big E »

Didn't you just call me out seeing if I practiced what I preached?

Why do you expect anyone to respond to you with anything other than d-baggery?  Hold yourself to your own standards.
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S33
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Post by S33 »

Big E wrote:Didn't you just call me out seeing if I practiced what I preached?

Why do you expect anyone to respond to you with anything other than d-baggery?  Hold yourself to your own standards.
Big E, I don't expect any sort of standards from anyone, as we are all obviously quite different. I just expect that if someone is going to constantly push an agenda, create a platform for debate, they should leave it open as a two-way discussion rather than the typical "well you don't have a masters in urban planning, so you wouldn't get it..."

I would love to contribute to his articles and have a meaningful discussion because, believe it or not, I have plenty I would like to comment on, but it always turns into the same |expletive| |expletive| - there's only one right answer: his.

Really? You tell me how in the |expletive| there is no gray area in car ownership or residential density. If there is really no gray area, I won't bother commenting.
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

Oh my god, S33. What are you even talking about anymore???

You've turned into the sole "extremist" on the forum these days -- you're an extreme "StreetsOfOmaha-hater".
"The right to have access to every building in the city by private motorcar in an age when everyone possesses such a vehicle is actually the right to destroy the city."
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S33
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Post by S33 »

Lol. Yeah, I'm just your prototypical extremist...
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Linkin5
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Post by Linkin5 »

S33 wrote:Lol. Yeah, I'm just your prototypical extremist...
You are a mirror image of Streets, just one that is more comical.  You both have crazy egos that never think they are wrong.
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

Linkin, cut me some slack. You don't even know me. To say I have a big ego and won't admit when I'm wrong is really laughable. I mean really, I'm not being pretentious! (again, the forum is really bull-|expletive| when it comes to effectively communicating emotion, inflection, tone, and sincerity).
"The right to have access to every building in the city by private motorcar in an age when everyone possesses such a vehicle is actually the right to destroy the city."
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chaoman45
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Post by chaoman45 »

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:the forum is really bull-|expletive| when it comes to effectively communicating emotion, inflection, tone, and sincerity.
That applies to most of the internet, as well.

Anyway, it's good to see that planners are moving away from the sprawl and excessive retail space. I assume when they reference "retail" that food service stores are included - those always seem to go belly-up before other places.
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Post by OmahaBen »

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:Linkin, cut me some slack. You don't even know me. To say I have a big ego and won't admit when I'm wrong is really laughable. I mean really, I'm not being pretentious! (again, the forum is really bull-|expletive| when it comes to effectively communicating emotion, inflection, tone, and sincerity).
That's a cop-out. For centuries the written word was the only form of distance communication, and people could convey all sorts of emotions, tones, and sincerity doing so.

Just because it takes more effort to communicate via text rather than speech does not make it impossible to do so.
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Post by nebport5 »

OmahaBen wrote:
StreetsOfOmaha wrote:Linkin, cut me some slack. You don't even know me. To say I have a big ego and won't admit when I'm wrong is really laughable. I mean really, I'm not being pretentious! (again, the forum is really bull-|expletive| when it comes to effectively communicating emotion, inflection, tone, and sincerity).
That's a cop-out. For centuries the written word was the only form of distance communication, and people could convey all sorts of emotions, tones, and sincerity doing so.

Just because it takes more effort to communicate via text rather than speech does not make it impossible to do so.
That implies one doesn't think much before speaking.


While that is probably more true today than centuries ago, is doesn't make your analogy a good comparison.  Technology may have increased the speed and forms of communication but it hasn't improved people's ability to communicate effectively, especially when it involves strangers conversing over the internet.  What written word communication from centuries ago would you say is analogous to modern internet forums where sarcasm is oft banned?
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

OmahaBen wrote:
StreetsOfOmaha wrote:Linkin, cut me some slack. You don't even know me. To say I have a big ego and won't admit when I'm wrong is really laughable. I mean really, I'm not being pretentious! (again, the forum is really bull-|expletive| when it comes to effectively communicating emotion, inflection, tone, and sincerity).
That's a cop-out. For centuries the written word was the only form of distance communication, and people could convey all sorts of emotions, tones, and sincerity doing so.

Just because it takes more effort to communicate via text rather than speech does not make it impossible to do so.
Haha. Thanks for the history lesson.

But you're leaving out half of the equation; In order for the emotion, tone, and inflection to be conveyed, there needs to be an active, engaged reader on the other end. I can spend all the time in the world (and have) composing a thoughtful, sincere post only to have thoughtless, one-liner, d-baggeries fired off in return, which often times leads to the elimination of an entire chunk of a thread (if not the entire thread). And then all that thoughtful composition was for naught.

So where's the incentive to spend any time creating concise arguments for discussion? Yet that's exactly the standard those who engage in the thoughtless d-baggery seem to demand of everyone but themselves.

It's a little like the old saying about a tree falling in the woods with nobody there to hear it. Did it still make a sound?
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Post by joeglow »

Man.  Re-run season is starting early this year.
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Post by mrdwhsr »

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:
But you're leaving out half of the equation; In order for the emotion, tone, and inflection to be conveyed, there needs to be an active, engaged reader on the other end.
Emotion, tone, and inflection? What are you posting - romance novels?
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

No. They're just basic, important aspects of communication that aren't conveyed through typed media--again, especially when you can't count on a literate, engaged reader on the other end.

Joeglow, the debate is always in season--there are no re-runs.
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S33
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Post by S33 »

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:No. They're just basic, important aspects of communication that aren't conveyed through typed media--again, especially when you can't count on a literate, engaged reader on the other end.
The more you type is the more you prove my point. You're right, my "always predictable" comments are unnecessary.
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Post by Bosco55David »

S33 wrote:
StreetsOfOmaha wrote:No. They're just basic, important aspects of communication that aren't conveyed through typed media--again, especially when you can't count on a literate, engaged reader on the other end.
The more you type is the more you prove my point. You're right, my "always predictable" comments are unnecessary.
Pretty much. Most people like you and me can convey those things through text quite well. I wonder why Streets is so incapable.
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Post by justnick »

Image
StreetsOfOmaha
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

Bosco55David wrote:
S33 wrote:
StreetsOfOmaha wrote:No. They're just basic, important aspects of communication that aren't conveyed through typed media--again, especially when you can't count on a literate, engaged reader on the other end.
The more you type is the more you prove my point. You're right, my "always predictable" comments are unnecessary.
Pretty much. Most people like you and me can convey those things through text quite well. I wonder why Streets is so incapable.
Oh can you? LOL. Word to the wise: I wouldn't align yourself with S33 in any way if you have any desire to be taken seriously.
"The right to have access to every building in the city by private motorcar in an age when everyone possesses such a vehicle is actually the right to destroy the city."
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Post by Bosco55David »

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:Oh can you? LOL. Word to the wise: I wouldn't align yourself with S33 in any way if you have any desire to be taken seriously.
You're just upset because S33 makes you his |expletive| on a regular basis. Many people, myself included, get along with him just fine.
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S33
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Post by S33 »

StreetsOfOmaha wrote: Oh can you? LOL. Word to the wise: I wouldn't align yourself with S33 in any way if you have any desire to be taken seriously.
Streets, I've ignored your |expletive| for a good week (which is a record for me), why start with the bullsh*t now? I'm beginning to think it's the attention you need.
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

The end of freeways--lifeblood of the suburbs...
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iamjacobm
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Post by iamjacobm »

Freeways seem to be headed for the same destiny as NPR.  :;):
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Post by StreetsOfOmaha »

If that's the case, it's a sacrifice I would be willing to make--and I love NPR :)
"The right to have access to every building in the city by private motorcar in an age when everyone possesses such a vehicle is actually the right to destroy the city."
Lewis Mumford, The Highway and the City, 1963
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