2011 Omaha Budget = Tax Increase

[DeWalt]

That said, even if you want to trot out this BS excuse, you are essentially admitting this should have been paid for in the past and, therefore, the increases in the past for other items were probably should not have happened.  Thus, that still means there are costs that can be cut without increasing the budget by 11 freaking percent.

You are correct, it should have been paid in the past, but that doesn't change anything, your reply is nothing but a strawman.

I would like to hear what you think should be cut to offset this increase.  Hmmm?

Suttle is doing exactly the same thing President Obama is doing - specifically, continuing to blame his predecessor.  Apparently that's kind of a Democrat thing.


What should be done to offset the increase?

1. Start at the top:  Suttle and his entire administration take a 25% pay cut - including benefits & pension.  Further, 25% of his administration is cut.  You don't ADD staff and INCREASE salaries during a budget crisis.  How stupid is that?  Suttle needs to - for the first time in his political career - show good faith by himself taking what he's trying to force on everybody else.

2. The bloated OPD and OFD Union Contracts absolutely HAVE TO BE redone.  Doesn't matter if it takes a Nebraska Supreme Court fight.  Let it happen.  Those bloated publicly-funded pensions are bleeding the city dry, and they HAVE to be changed.

3. Make the QWest Center pay its own bills!  The place is making money.  In fact, they're making a LOT of money.  But they're doing creative accounting in order to appear as though they cannot make their mortgage payments.  And who is inevitably holding the sack?  Taxpayers.


These three things alone would save the City of Omaha tens of millions of dollars per year.  Further, it would not be a band-aid, but a long-term correction.


After that, you go through every single expenditure of the City with a fine-toothed comb.  Eliminate duplication and waste.  There's no question that there are millions of dollars per year that are absolutely wasted.

[bbinks]

Is knowing who's fault it is going to balance the budget?

No, it isn't.  But Suttle needs to me a man and stop blaming others and not taking some of the accountability.

[DeWalt]

Is knowing who's fault it is going to balance the budget?

No, it isn't.  But Suttle needs to me a man and stop blaming others and not taking some of the accountability.

That would be a good first step.  Very little improvement will take place unless he takes responsibility, then mans up and starts to do the right thing.

[icejammer]

What should be done to offset the increase?

1. Start at the top:  Suttle and his entire administration take a 25% pay cut - including benefits & pension.  Further, 25% of his administration is cut.  You don't ADD staff and INCREASE salaries during a budget crisis.  How stupid is that?  Suttle needs to - for the first time in his political career - show good faith by himself taking what he's trying to force on everybody else.

The entire Mayor's office only accounts for $1.1M, so 25% cut across the board would save $275,000.

2. The bloated OPD and OFD Union Contracts absolutely HAVE TO BE redone.  Doesn't matter if it takes a Nebraska Supreme Court fight.  Let it happen.  Those bloated publicly-funded pensions are bleeding the city dry, and they HAVE to be changed.

City is set to contribute $12.8M to OPD and ~$9.4M for OFD.  You could get the firefighters and police to contribute a larger percentage, but that won't happen unless wages go up to compensate for otherwise lost wages, don't see much chance of seeing much difference in the overall budget here.

3. Make the QWest Center pay its own bills!  The place is making money.  In fact, they're making a LOT of money.  But they're doing creative accounting in order to appear as though they cannot make their mortgage payments.  And who is inevitably holding the sack?  Taxpayers.

City is set to pay MECA $1M for running the Qwest, Civic and new ballpark next year, and the city is paying $7.4M on bonds for the convention center hotel, parking garage and connecting skywalk (approved by the voters).  You can't change these amounts, and nowhere is the City apying for the Qwest.  So again, zippo for savings.

These three things alone would save the City of Omaha tens of millions of dollars per year.  Further, it would not be a band-aid, but a long-term correction.

Actually, these three things wouldn't save the City even a million, so you're going to have to go deeper in the budget (either that, or stop listening to certain whack jobs on AM radio).

After that, you go through every single expenditure of the City with a fine-toothed comb.  Eliminate duplication and waste.  There's no question that there are millions of dollars per year that are absolutely wasted.

Can't wait to hear your analysis on this!

[DeWalt]

^^  Nice evasion.

First of all, a 25% staff reduction and 25% pay cut does NOT equal $275,000 per year.  But even if your math was right, that's well over a quarter-million dollars per year.  Nothing to sneeze at there!  Make enough of those types of "small cuts" and you've got your budget mess solved.


Now...

You have ONE 47-year old retiring OFD employee, and he'll receive almost $87,000 per year FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.
http://www.omaha.com/article/20100323/NEWS01/703239872

You have ONE 45-year old retiring Cop, and he'll receive $84,000 per year FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.
[/url]http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/37187009.html[url]


That is JUST TWO examples.  TWO.  There are dozens - perhaps hundreds - more OFD and OPD "retirees" who spiked their pensions and are receiving almost 6-figure annual pay-outs for life.  Everyone knows it.  These are guys in their mid-40s.  So the likely taxpayer-funded pension plan will likely be over $2.5 million each for the two guys I mentioned.





...and you'll still say there's no money to be saved.  

[S33]

OFD and OPD aren't the only local government employees who benefit from pension spiking.

[DeWalt]

OFD and OPD aren't the only local government employees who benefit from pension spiking.

You're absolutely right.

The obvious follow-up question is why ANY of them are allowed to do it?

[joeglow]

I am constantly amazed at the number of people who honestly think governments are run with such efficiency that they have no significant cost that can be cut.

[Bosco55David]

Suttle is doing exactly the same thing President Obama is doing - specifically, continuing to blame his predecessor.

And in both cases, some legitimately horrible management from those predecessors have left some major problems at their feet.

2. The bloated OPD and OFD Union Contracts absolutely HAVE TO BE redone.  Doesn't matter if it takes a Nebraska Supreme Court fight.  Let it happen.  Those bloated publicly-funded pensions are bleeding the city dry, and they HAVE to be changed.

Going forward I agree. I assume that means you're supporting the proposed OPD contract, right?

[DeWalt]

All the information from these "watch dog groups" must be taken with a grain of salt.  But there is certainly a grain of truth to them - especially when they're pulling raw figures that can be verified.

The Suttle Administration needs to grow a pair, and directly address the REAL budget problems the City of Omaha is facing!

http://omahalliance.com/2010/02/mismana ... escue-dpt/


Personally, I think Dave Nabity is rather a durfwad.  But he does make a good point when he said, "“I don't think any government job should pay more or offer more benefits than the marketplace.”


Plain and simple:  Our local police and fireman's unions are practicing extortion.  This needs to change.

[cdub]

I cant speak much to the PD and FD because they are treated differently then the rest of the City.  However, on the point about treating the City like a business, I have two issues.  1) Civilian employees were not expanded or payed more when times were good so why should cuts be the same as a 'business' now?  2) If your business is cutting back its because demand for your services are waning.  This isn't quite the case with the City.  While I suppose I'm fine with wiping out Libraries or pools if the public really wishes that (there is far from agreement on that point) I will say that it would be far more damaging in the long run than other options which people are trying to promote as killing Omaha (proposed taxes).  The overall problem is that there is a massive disconnect amongst most of the population between what you pay and what you get.  While this does not mean anything the City or the Mayor proposes is perfect, it does make the balancing act between taxes and services incredibly difficult to accomplish.

[DeWalt]

I cant speak much to the PD and FD because they are treated differently then the rest of the City.  However, on the point about treating the City like a business, I have two issues.  1) Civilian employees were not expanded or payed more when times were good so why should cuts be the same as a 'business' now?  2) If your business is cutting back its because demand for your services are waning.  This isn't quite the case with the City.  While I suppose I'm fine with wiping out Libraries or pools if the public really wishes that (there is far from agreement on that point) I will say that it would be far more damaging in the long run than other options which people are trying to promote as killing Omaha (proposed taxes).  The overall problem is that there is a massive disconnect amongst most of the population between what you pay and what you get.  While this does not mean anything the City or the Mayor proposes is perfect, it does make the balancing act between taxes and services incredibly difficult to accomplish.

I agree.

The problem is that this "balancing act" of making the budget work has always been done by simply adding and raising taxes.  The City of Omaha is a microcosm of our Federal Government.  They absolutely refuse to be accountable to the public, via honesty and clear accounting.  And they absolutely refuse to consider cuts in pay and staff.


On one level, this current budget crisis could be a GREAT thing for the City of Omaha - IF the taxpaying citizens continue to be so outraged that they/we continue to demand fiscal responsibility from our City.  EVERYTHING needs to be out on the table.  There are no sacred cows - aka, police & fireman's unions & contracts.  EVERYTHING needs to be honestly examined, and cuts made where necessary.


It's time to rein in our City's wasteful spending.

[icejammer]

[The problem is that this "balancing act" of making the budget work has always been done by simply adding and raising taxes.  The City of Omaha is a microcosm of our Federal Government.  They absolutely refuse to be accountable to the public, via honesty and clear accounting.  And they absolutely refuse to consider cuts in pay and staff.


On one level, this current budget crisis could be a GREAT thing for the City of Omaha - IF the taxpaying citizens continue to be so outraged that they/we continue to demand fiscal responsibility from our City.  EVERYTHING needs to be out on the table.  There are no sacred cows - aka, police & fireman's unions & contracts.  EVERYTHING needs to be honestly examined, and cuts made where necessary.


It's time to rein in our City's wasteful spending.

The only problem with your argument is that it is simply NOT TRUE!  How many years running have we seen pay freezes and staff cuts at the city govt level in one or more departments just to make the budget balance, or push necessary spending to out-years, just so the Mayor can say he didn't raise taxes and get reelected?  4?  5?  6?  How many more years do you think this type of spending mentality can carry the City forward before it crumbles to the ground?

I'm all for responsible government spending, but I have yet to see one example here where anyone can pinpoint wasteful spending?  If it's so plain for you to see, where is it?  Everyone would love to see it eliminated, so there's no point in not exposing it right now, is there?  Where is it?

And again, how is the City refusing to be honest and have clear accounting?  Everything is available as public record, and the City has regular audits, so please share with us what is being hidden from the public?

Look, I'm with you in principal, but dadgummit, let's just stop with throwing generalities around and get down to the nuts and bolts of what will actually work here.

[S33]

Look, if any of us had the time or energy to go through the city budget with a fine-tooth comb, I'm sure we could find millions of objective and subjective wasteful spending. That is the nature of large budgets regardless of whether it's a municipality, business, or a non-profit.

I think the worst thing the city council and the (Fahey) administration has done was not seeking advisement and little to no foresight of the oncoming economic downturn. If they could have shown a little more diligence in their foresight, they could have planned for less tax receipts and been more proactive with budget cuts. That's kind of how budgets work, you have to plan for your expenditures, they did not plan, they just made assumptions from previous years and let unsustainable union contracts fester.

[joeglow]

[The problem is that this "balancing act" of making the budget work has always been done by simply adding and raising taxes.  The City of Omaha is a microcosm of our Federal Government.  They absolutely refuse to be accountable to the public, via honesty and clear accounting.  And they absolutely refuse to consider cuts in pay and staff.


On one level, this current budget crisis could be a GREAT thing for the City of Omaha - IF the taxpaying citizens continue to be so outraged that they/we continue to demand fiscal responsibility from our City.  EVERYTHING needs to be out on the table.  There are no sacred cows - aka, police & fireman's unions & contracts.  EVERYTHING needs to be honestly examined, and cuts made where necessary.


It's time to rein in our City's wasteful spending.

The only problem with your argument is that it is simply NOT TRUE!  How many years running have we seen pay freezes and staff cuts at the city govt level in one or more departments just to make the budget balance, or push necessary spending to out-years, just so the Mayor can say he didn't raise taxes and get reelected?  4?  5?  6?  How many more years do you think this type of spending mentality can carry the City forward before it crumbles to the ground?

I'm all for responsible government spending, but I have yet to see one example here where anyone can pinpoint wasteful spending?  If it's so plain for you to see, where is it?  Everyone would love to see it eliminated, so there's no point in not exposing it right now, is there?  Where is it?

And again, how is the City refusing to be honest and have clear accounting?  Everything is available as public record, and the City has regular audits, so please share with us what is being hidden from the public?

Look, I'm with you in principal, but dadgummit, let's just stop with throwing generalities around and get down to the nuts and bolts of what will actually work here.

If everyone cared for what you claim, why do you and others not join the demand of external audits of the government departments (specifically the Fire Department)?  THAT is how you get honest answers about where to make cuts.  Like I asked earlier, who actually believes any government runs at top efficiency and can ONLY raise taxes as a solution?

[icejammer]

Look, if any of us had the time or energy to go through the city budget with a fine-tooth comb, I'm sure we could find millions of objective and subjective wasteful spending. That is the nature of large budgets regardless of whether it's a municipality, business, or a non-profit.

Look, if you want to get ahead anywhere in this world, you learn the self-discipline to do that sort of thing.  If you can't, or don't, then don't expect those that do to take you seriously until you do.  So, if you're just going to keep throwing generalities around, without any specifics, then please do us all a favor and stop already, we know where you stand; saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any more true.

I think the worst thing the city council and the (Fahey) administration has done was not seeking advisement and little to no foresight of the oncoming economic downturn. If they could have shown a little more diligence in their foresight, they could have planned for less tax receipts and been more proactive with budget cuts. That's kind of how budgets work, you have to plan for your expenditures, they did not plan, they just made assumptions from previous years and let unsustainable union contracts fester.

Very few people saw the current downturn in advance, and with budgets set ~4-6 months before the year begins, a lot can happen to screw your best forecasts on receipts.  Even after the downturn began, it seemed to be nearly unanimous with most economists (and most cities do rely on economic forecasts like this for budgetary reasons) that the downturn would last 2-3 quarters, not this long,   In my view, Omaha's biggest mistake in budgeting has been their continued reliance on sales tax receipts for such a large share of the overall budget revenue - sure, this was fine when Omaha reigned supreme in the retail world, but with more and more shopping options in Sarpy and Pott. Counties, it's time for Omaha to change with the times and shift the tax burden to a more favorable position (at least from the City's perspective, that is).

[DeWalt]

[The problem is that this "balancing act" of making the budget work has always been done by simply adding and raising taxes.  The City of Omaha is a microcosm of our Federal Government.  They absolutely refuse to be accountable to the public, via honesty and clear accounting.  And they absolutely refuse to consider cuts in pay and staff.


On one level, this current budget crisis could be a GREAT thing for the City of Omaha - IF the taxpaying citizens continue to be so outraged that they/we continue to demand fiscal responsibility from our City.  EVERYTHING needs to be out on the table.  There are no sacred cows - aka, police & fireman's unions & contracts.  EVERYTHING needs to be honestly examined, and cuts made where necessary.


It's time to rein in our City's wasteful spending.

The only problem with your argument is that it is simply NOT TRUE!  How many years running have we seen pay freezes and staff cuts at the city govt level in one or more departments just to make the budget balance, or push necessary spending to out-years, just so the Mayor can say he didn't raise taxes and get reelected?  4?  5?  6?  How many more years do you think this type of spending mentality can carry the City forward before it crumbles to the ground?

I'm all for responsible government spending, but I have yet to see one example here where anyone can pinpoint wasteful spending?  If it's so plain for you to see, where is it?  Everyone would love to see it eliminated, so there's no point in not exposing it right now, is there?  Where is it?

And again, how is the City refusing to be honest and have clear accounting?  Everything is available as public record, and the City has regular audits, so please share with us what is being hidden from the public?

Look, I'm with you in principal, but dadgummit, let's just stop with throwing generalities around and get down to the nuts and bolts of what will actually work here.

Generalities?  GENERALITIES?

I'm giving specifics, with specific collar amounts.  


The FACT is that we have hundreds upon hundreds of "City of Omaha" employees that are overpaid - many of whom are unnecessary.  And there are hundreds upon hundreds more who are being paid enormous pensions, for life, all at taxpayer expense.  This amounts to tens of millions of dollars per year, much of which is completely unnecessary - yet you'll claim that there's no room to trim.

[DeWalt]

Look, if any of us had the time or energy to go through the city budget with a fine-tooth comb, I'm sure we could find millions of objective and subjective wasteful spending. That is the nature of large budgets regardless of whether it's a municipality, business, or a non-profit.

Look, if you want to get ahead anywhere in this world, you learn the self-discipline to do that sort of thing.  If you can't, or don't, then don't expect those that do to take you seriously until you do.  So, if you're just going to keep throwing generalities around, without any specifics, then please do us all a favor and stop already, we know where you stand; saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any more true.

You HAVE TO BE a city employee, pulling down enormous wages for very little work - and anticipating an $85,000 per year for life pension - or there's no way you'd be so blindly, and belligerently, defending these outlandish expenditures.


The problem is NOT in the knowing.  The problem is getting the Mayor, and City Council, to listen.  Even with the public uproar, Suttle still isn't listening.  He's a cut & dried Democrat - whose answer to EVERYTHING is simply to raise taxes.

[icejammer]

The FACT is that we have hundreds upon hundreds of "City of Omaha" employees that are overpaid - many of whom are unnecessary.  And there are hundreds upon hundreds more who are being paid enormous pensions, for life, all at taxpayer expense.  This amounts to tens of millions of dollars per year, much of which is completely unnecessary - yet you'll claim that there's no room to trim.

Which ones are overpaid, and by how much?

Which ones are unncessary, and why?

Whose definition of enormous are we going to use for pensions and how much do we reduce them by?

Specifics man, not generalities.

[S33]

Look, if you want to get ahead anywhere in this world, you learn the self-discipline to do that sort of thing.  If you can't, or don't, then don't expect those that do to take you seriously until you do.  So, if you're just going to keep throwing generalities around, without any specifics, then please do us all a favor and stop already, we know where you stand; saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any more true.

What in heck are you even trying to say there? Are you saying that I don't know how to balance a budget personally? = / Forgive me for throwing around the generality that most large budgets contain exorbitant amounts of waste because nobody already knew that.... <--that was sarcasm

Very few people saw the current downturn in advance, and with budgets set ~4-6 months before the year begins, a lot can happen to screw your best forecasts on receipts.  Even after the downturn began, it seemed to be nearly unanimous with most economists (and most cities do rely on economic forecasts like this for budgetary reasons) that the downturn would last 2-3 quarters, not this long,   In my view, Omaha's biggest mistake in budgeting has been their continued reliance on sales tax receipts for such a large share of the overall budget revenue - sure, this was fine when Omaha reigned supreme in the retail world, but with more and more shopping options in Sarpy and Pott. Counties, it's time for Omaha to change with the times and shift the tax burden to a more favorable position (at least from the City's perspective, that is).

Perhaps the onset of the downturn was a surprise to some, even though analysts had been predicting it for years previously, but, God forbid the 3 lousy years we had they make any adjustments until the budget was OUT OF CONTROL!! Who the heck knew that with the collapse of the housing market and financial system that consumers may start spending less and therefore the city would take in less tax receipts thus increasing their unfundable liabilities.

Yeah, Icejammer, that is so hard to see. Personally, I started tangibly purchasing "certain" metals at the very beginning of this whole thing for a variety of reasons. One, if they were unable to bring the financial system back from the brink, then I'd still have a pot to pi-ss in, and two, to protect the value of my savings from inflation.

See, I'm just some average schmo and even I can think to myself, "hey, I may need to make some adjustments." I'm not saying purchasing precious metals is in any way a great investment with any return, It's just a simple way to protect what you have. Now let's hear your half-assed excuse as to why a municipality is unable to take initiative and protect their communities from this sort of deficit?

[DeWalt]

Perhaps the onset of the downturn was a surprise to some, even though analysts had been predicting it for years previously, but, God forbid the 3 lousy years we had they make any adjustments until the budget was OUT OF CONTROL!! Who the heck knew that with the collapse of the housing market and financial system that consumers may start spending less and therefore the city would take in less tax receipts thus increasing their unfundable liabilities.

Yeah, Icejammer, that is so hard to see. Personally, I started tangibly purchasing "certain" metals at the very beginning of this whole thing for a variety of reasons. One, if they were unable to bring the financial system back from the brink, then I'd still have a pot to pi-ss in, and two, to protect the value of my savings from inflation.

See, I'm just some average schmo and even I can think to myself, "hey, I may need to make some adjustments." I'm not saying purchasing precious metals is in any way a great investment with any return, It's just a simple way to protect what you have. Now let's hear your half-assed excuse as to why a municipality is unable to take initiative and protect their communities from this sort of deficit?

You are exactly right.  

Those of us who HAVE TO PAY OUR OWN WAY make necessary adjustments when money is tight.  Obviously, there are members on this forum who simply don't understand that concept.

I have a kid in college.  Hey guess what?  We knew it was coming, made adjustments early, have continued to make family adjustments - including everything from dropping cable to driving a car with over 300,000 miles - to weather this "storm."  At some point in the future I might buy a newer car, and hook up to cable again.  What I did NOT do is march into my employer and simply demand more money.


Again, it's too bad that so many public employees simply do not understand this concept!

[icejammer]

What in heck are you even trying to say there? Are you saying that I don't know how to balance a budget personally? = / Forgive me for throwing around the generality that most large budgets contain exorbitant amounts of waste because nobody already knew that.... <--that was sarcasm

No, I'm saying that if you're going to use the excuse that you're too busy to look at the budget with a critical eye, then quit throwing this BS about that there's all this waste that you can wave a magic wand at and make disappear.  If you want to be part of the solution, then make an effort to be part of the solution, don't just make baseless claims without some facts to back them up.

Perhaps the onset of the downturn was a surprise to some, even though analysts had been predicting it for years previously, but, God forbid the 3 lousy years we had they make any adjustments until the budget was OUT OF CONTROL!! Who the heck knew that with the collapse of the housing market and financial system that consumers may start spending less and therefore the city would take in less tax receipts thus increasing their unfundable liabilities.

Yeah, Icejammer, that is so hard to see. Personally, I started tangibly purchasing "certain" metals at the very beginning of this whole thing for a variety of reasons. One, if they were unable to bring the financial system back from the brink, then I'd still have a pot to pi-ss in, and two, to protect the value of my savings from inflation.

See, I'm just some average schmo and even I can think to myself, "hey, I may need to make some adjustments." I'm not saying purchasing precious metals is in any way a great investment with any return, It's just a simple way to protect what you have. Now let's hear your half-assed excuse as to why a municipality is unable to take initiative and protect their communities from this sort of deficit?

Very few analysts were predicting any kind of significant downturn, and nearly all of them were branded crackpots by their collegues.  Perhaps you could apply to be City Finance Director then, since you have displayed some obvious financial acumen?  In case anybody's been paying attention, the City's budget problems precede the current downturn by (at least) 5 years, as the previous 2 Mayor's have restructured debt payments (for short-term political gain) that have increased the debt load the City has now.  They've kicked the can down the road in making any tough choices when it's come to the budget for as long as I can remember.  At some point it catches up with you, and it looks like it's come time to pay the piper.  Yes, times are tough, but it's time for those who've been elected to make tough choices and do what's best for the City in the long-term.

[icejammer]

You HAVE TO BE a city employee, pulling down enormous wages for very little work - and anticipating an $85,000 per year for life pension - or there's no way you'd be so blindly, and belligerently, defending these outlandish expenditures.


The problem is NOT in the knowing.  The problem is getting the Mayor, and City Council, to listen.  Even with the public uproar, Suttle still isn't listening.  He's a cut & dried Democrat - whose answer to EVERYTHING is simply to raise taxes.

No, not a City employee at all, but thanks for playing.

Look, if you want the Mayor and City Council to listen to you, then be sure you have your facts with you.  If you're just going to throw out generalities, they're not going to take you seriously, even if in principle they agree with you; offer up specifics and be prepared to discuss as much as possible (been there, done that).

[DeWalt]

You HAVE TO BE a city employee, pulling down enormous wages for very little work - and anticipating an $85,000 per year for life pension - or there's no way you'd be so blindly, and belligerently, defending these outlandish expenditures.


The problem is NOT in the knowing.  The problem is getting the Mayor, and City Council, to listen.  Even with the public uproar, Suttle still isn't listening.  He's a cut & dried Democrat - whose answer to EVERYTHING is simply to raise taxes.

No, not a City employee at all, but thanks for playing.

Look, if you want the Mayor and City Council to listen to you, then be sure you have your facts with you.  If you're just going to throw out generalities, they're not going to take you seriously, even if in principle they agree with you; offer up specifics and be prepared to discuss as much as possible (been there, done that).

Thank you for that concession speech.

[icejammer]

You HAVE TO BE a city employee, pulling down enormous wages for very little work - and anticipating an $85,000 per year for life pension - or there's no way you'd be so blindly, and belligerently, defending these outlandish expenditures.


The problem is NOT in the knowing.  The problem is getting the Mayor, and City Council, to listen.  Even with the public uproar, Suttle still isn't listening.  He's a cut & dried Democrat - whose answer to EVERYTHING is simply to raise taxes.

No, not a City employee at all, but thanks for playing.

Look, if you want the Mayor and City Council to listen to you, then be sure you have your facts with you.  If you're just going to throw out generalities, they're not going to take you seriously, even if in principle they agree with you; offer up specifics and be prepared to discuss as much as possible (been there, done that).

Thank you for that concession speech.

LOL, concession speech, classic

[S33]

Yeah, no waste at all. Between the satellite dish "inspectors" and department overlays, the city is as efficient as a Prius.

Icejammer, the fact remains, I am not employed by the city of Omaha nor is it my responsibility to analyze the city budget. I have a job of my own that's hard enough and there's a reason why we elect officials to manage the city and it's finances.

If your city is 32 million in the red, someone or everyone, at some point, was sitting on their thumbs.

[joeglow]

So, how much are police officers overpaid?  It's one thing to say they're overpaid, but let's get to the nuts and bolts, how much should they be paid and how much does that save the City?

They should be paid what the market dictates.  When you have hundreds applying for a handful of positions, that tells me MANY would be willing to work for less money.  I would never work on a roof or laying asphalt in 100 degree heat for 14 dollars an hour.  And yet, that is the pay.  Why?  because there are enough people willing to.

Second, you have not answered my question.  Would you support having an outside consultant come in and audit every department (starting with the fire department) to determine what cuts are available?

[Bosco55David]

First, you're number aren't quite correct, the Watchdog report you reference shows 105 at 83179, 31 @ 91608 and 8 @ 98925, that works out to an average a little under $86k, not $90k.  Secondly, those numbers appear to include overtime, as well as base pay, because if you look at the 2011 budget, the average Sergeant is proposed to make $71k base, lieutenant $79k, and captain $91k.  Now, you're entitled to say those salaries are too high, but I know personally, you'd have to pay me a heck of a lot more than that to get me to do what they do, so for me, I don't think the salaries are out of line, and if you compare to comparable cities, you'd find that indeed OPD officers are not making what their counterparts in other areas do.

So, how much are police officers overpaid?  It's one thing to say they're overpaid, but let's get to the nuts and bolts, how much should they be paid and how much does that save the City?

Exactly.

Every time someone discusses pay regarding the police/fire department, all we hear is "well, this is what other cities pay, so we need to beat it."  This is lazy, apathetic and wasteful.  I can go to 10 different cities of the same size and get 10 completely different salaries in almost all professions, due to supply of labor.

That's why the CIR, if it goes that far, will set pay rates at the AVERAGE of comparable cities.

When Omaha has 200 people apply for 10 police positions, there is NO WAY IN heck you can convince me that 190 are truly unqualified.

You might as well believe it, because it's happening year in and year out. The current hiring process hasn't even reached the polygraph stage and of the original 1000+ applicants, only around 300 are still left and the polygraph is by far the biggest applicant scrub.

[joeglow]

You might as well believe it, because it's happening year in and year out. The current hiring process hasn't even reached the polygraph stage and of the original 1000+ applicants, only around 300 are still left and the polygraph is by far the biggest applicant scrub.

I wish I had such naive, blind trust in the government.

[Bosco55David]

I wish I had such naive, blind trust in the government.

Come again?

[joeglow]

I wish I had such naive, blind trust in the government.

Come again?

There are few people in this thread who refuse to question the potential for waste in government, the cities ability to identify the ideal wage for police officers, etc.  Anytime anything is question, the typical responses are:

"Well, it is not going to change, so deal with it."
"Prove to me there is waste.  If you don't have in depth access to analyze things, then it doesn't exist."
"The city pays "x" for police wages and it IS the perfect, ideal wage for taxpayers."
"Since all the above is true, our only option is to raise taxes."

Seriously, NO entity (for profit, not-for-profit, government, etc.) runs at peak efficiency.  Businesses get this and continually employ means of analyzing efficiency (both internal and external resources).  And yet, few ask the same of their government.  Instead, they are too wrapped up in their own politics and/or personal benefits from the status quo to want anything to change.

[Bosco55David]

I still don't understand why you quoted that section of my post to reply, as if you doubted my claims or something. Anyways, moving on.

There are few people in this thread who refuse to question the potential for waste in government, the cities ability to identify the ideal wage for police officers, etc.  Anytime anything is question, the typical responses are:

I'm all for cutting waste. Unfortunately the definition of waste is usually somewhat dependent on your political leanings and whether or not your party is in charge.

As for the city and identifying wages, you seem to forget that they don't set the wages. They're collectively bargained for between the city and the respective unions with the CIR having the ability to settle the disputes by setting pay scales at the average of comparable cities. I'm sure the city would love to pay police officers/firefighters as little as they could (which is understandable) but they have to work out a pay scale with those guys who obviously want to get as much as possible.

Oh, and apparently Chris Jerram has opted to vote for the police contract, so the city council has the 4 votes needed to pass it.

[cdub]

If all this waste hunting was new to this economic downturn I could maybe believe there was enough to find worth spending the money it takes to find it.  The problem, however, is that even when times were good for everyone else we had King Hal cutting taxes 6 times and 'trimming the fat' in City government.  While everyone else was growing in staff and pay, civilian positions were getting cut left and right.  I'm all for efficiency but this song has been playing for decades and its not that hard to believe that its mostly cut.  At least as concerns civilian positions.  My knowledge of the sworn folks is not enough to say much, although they have one heck of a retirement plan.  

[joeglow]

If all this waste hunting was new to this economic downturn I could maybe believe there was enough to find worth spending the money it takes to find it.  The problem, however, is that even when times were good for everyone else we had King Hal cutting taxes 6 times and 'trimming the fat' in City government.  While everyone else was growing in staff and pay, civilian positions were getting cut left and right.  I'm all for efficiency but this song has been playing for decades and its not that hard to believe that its mostly cut.  At least as concerns civilian positions.  My knowledge of the sworn folks is not enough to say much, although they have one heck of a retirement plan.  

I strongly disagree.  Productivity has shot up in this country in the past few decades and technology has rendered many functions obsolete.  EVERY company has scaled back on the number of employees multiple times in the past decade for this very reason.  However, you prove my point:  people blindly trust that government is the lone exception that operates at peak efficiency.  Sadly, in my own experiences working with entities with government contracts is that they are far and away the most wasteful.

[icejammer]

Yeah, no waste at all. Between the satellite dish "inspectors" and department overlays, the city is as efficient as a Prius.

Icejammer, the fact remains, I am not employed by the city of Omaha nor is it my responsibility to analyze the city budget. I have a job of my own that's hard enough and there's a reason why we elect officials to manage the city and it's finances.

If your city is 32 million in the red, someone or everyone, at some point, was sitting on their thumbs.

Well, there are no satellite dish inspectors, what departments overlays are you referring to?

I have a full-time job as well, but I make a point, if a subject is near and dear to my heart, to be informed or be involved.  I'm not just going to regurgitate Sean Hannity's talking points, if you know what I mean.

And yes, people have been sitting on their thumbs, not just public officials, but the electorate as well.  As another poster pointed out, taxes and services have been cut for years now - you can only defer certain spending in this manner so much before it comes back to bite you in the |expletive|.

[S33]

Well, there are no satellite dish inspectors, what departments overlays are you referring to?

I have a full-time job as well, but I make a point, if a subject is near and dear to my heart, to be informed or be involved.  I'm not just going to regurgitate Sean Hannity's talking points, if you know what I mean.

And yes, people have been sitting on their thumbs, not just public officials, but the electorate as well.  As another poster pointed out, taxes and services have been cut for years now - you can only defer certain spending in this manner so much before it comes back to bite you in the |expletive|.

Your insulting implication that everyone here but you is uniformed says much more about you than anything. In just about every thread you're involved, you ultimately "regurgitate" back toward "well, I know what I'm talking about and you don't"; your usual talking points.

Now back on topic, I rarely follow the details of the Omaha budget as they don't affect me, however, I am well aware of the union contracts that have been draining the city's budget and will continue to do so. I'm also informed enough to understand that the city's financial planning has been almost exclusively reactive instead of proactive. That method alone rarely works in the private sector or personal budgets, for that matter.

That said, I stand by the few points I originally made until you rudely opened your mouth: Omaha needs to cut it's liabilities, I don't care if that means 1 less fire fighter on the trucks, employee wages and furloughs, renegotiate pension contracts, whatever, they need to find a way to do more with less just like everyone else is having to do. Second, these new tax increases need to affect all businesses instead of pinpointing food service. Was it food service alone that got us into this mess?

By all means, feel free not to respond to this post, I'm not really interested in anything you have to say because I'm sure we've already heard it.

FYI: Yes, many "thinkers" saw this economic crisis as a foregone conclusion in the years prior. Just visit a library or a boarders, they were writing books about it for years. I suppose you never read about it in the NY Times, Politico, Drudge Report, or Huffington Post, did you?

[icejammer]

Well, there are no satellite dish inspectors, what departments overlays are you referring to?

I have a full-time job as well, but I make a point, if a subject is near and dear to my heart, to be informed or be involved.  I'm not just going to regurgitate Sean Hannity's talking points, if you know what I mean.

And yes, people have been sitting on their thumbs, not just public officials, but the electorate as well.  As another poster pointed out, taxes and services have been cut for years now - you can only defer certain spending in this manner so much before it comes back to bite you in the |expletive|.

Your insulting implication that everyone here but you is uniformed says much more about you than anything. In just about every thread you're involved, you ultimately "regurgitate" back toward "well, I know what I'm talking about and you don't"; your usual talking points.

No, not at all, I'm just tired of hearing the same ol', same ol' without specifics.  Shootfire, any trained monkey can fire off a letter to the Mayor or City Council saying "my taxes are too high, cut something".

Now back on topic, I rarely follow the details of the Omaha budget as they don't affect me, however, I am well aware of the union contracts that have been draining the city's budget and will continue to do so. I'm also informed enough to understand that the city's financial planning has been almost exclusively reactive instead of proactive. That method alone rarely works in the private sector or personal budgets, for that matter.

That leaves me puzzled, if the details of the Omaha budget don't affect you, then why be so passionate about cutting service?  For that matter, how is cutting services any less reactive than increasing taxes?  The City hasn't had a solid long-term financial plan for years; I know it, you know, heck, the Mayor and City Council know it.  Why does everyone want to keep passing the buck another year?  Somebody has to have the courage to stand up and say enough is enough, let's get this under control once and for all.  It's unfortunate that it's being done in times of economic uncertainty, but on the other hand, how responsible is it to put this off on future generations?

That said, I stand by the few points I originally made until you rudely opened your mouth: Omaha needs to cut it's liabilities, I don't care if that means 1 less fire fighter on the trucks, employee wages and furloughs, renegotiate pension contracts, whatever, they need to find a way to do more with less just like everyone else is having to do. Second, these new tax increases need to affect all businesses instead of pinpointing food service. Was it food service alone that got us into this mess?

I'd be all for 1 less firefighter per truck; however, that isn't going to solve this mess in and of itself.  Something more drastic needs to take place.

By all means, feel free not to respond to this post, I'm not really interested in anything you have to say because I'm sure we've already heard it.

And likewise.

FYI: Yes, many "thinkers" saw this economic crisis as a foregone conclusion in the years prior. Just visit a library or a boarders, they were writing books about it for years. I suppose you never read about it in the NY Times, Politico, Drudge Report, or Huffington Post, did you?

Like I said earlier, yes, I'm well aware of those that raised the flag in prior years, and as you may be aware, very few took them seriously.  Of course, those sorts have been raising the flag since after WWII, so eventually some of them were bound to be right.  I think if you search on here, you might find a few of us that were raising the flag of the impending bubble bursting 4 or 5 years ago.  But, what good does that do?  The "I told you so" mantra doesn't solve the problem.

[S33]

That leaves me puzzled, if the details of the Omaha budget don't affect you, then why be so passionate about cutting service?  

I wouldn't call it being "passionate", more like just sick of hearing about these issues when, as you said, they could have stopped 'passing the buck' many years ago but chose not to.

Either way, it's the current administration who's going to have to answer to these taxpayers and I'm interested to see what parts of the city budget get stripped before they "adjust" those union contracts. I'm also sitting back with a bag of popcorn waiting for the uproar from both sides, unions and the taxpayers.

[joeglow]

GREAT article on just this topic:

http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/08/13 ... ation.html

Some key comments:

"Traditional pensions, becoming rare in private business, remain a valuable benefit for government workers and a ticking time bomb in many public budgets."

"he worries that city-to-city comparisons "tend to ratchet up" pay."

"Most private employers dropped pensions and retiree healthcare years ago because the perks are unsustainable."

"They're especially reluctant to challenge police and firefighters, even if their compensation packages are among the most generous."

[GetUrban]

Not defending the bloated police & fire pensions, but this current budget shortfall has more to do with less sales tax revenue coming in due to the slow economy. In effect, people have actually been paying less in taxes, because they're buying less. It's a classic lesson on how you shouldn't depend so much on an unpredictable revenue source such as sales tax. If you do depend on it, you better budget for fluctuations. Obviously, very few people could predict the breadth of the recent downturn.

But in the coming months you'll see people say anything to get their party elected, even if they have no clue what can realistically be cut. It's the same old promise of lower taxes without facing the consequences.