non discrimination ordinance

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Erik
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Postby Erik » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:58 pm

S33 wrote:
Erik wrote:I think you guys are admirable that you stand up to your belief system at all costs.  I find it kinda silly, however that you are willing to stand with your finger in our face and telling us our pain is only a matter of whining.

I find that to be extremely reckless and will continue praying to your god; that you will experience all that we experience on 'average', no more and no less.


Thanks, Erik. Pleasure doing business with ya...


Agreed.  Time to move on and discuss city matters now.

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Postby DeWalt » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:08 pm

Erik wrote:I think you guys are admirable that you stand up to your belief system at all costs.  I find it kinda silly, however that you are willing to stand with your finger in our face and telling us our pain is only a matter of whining.

I find that to be extremely reckless and will continue praying to your god; that you will experience all that we experience on 'average', no more and no less.


Why the hatred?  Seriously!  Why?

You have people on here who would do any and everything to stand up for you, people who want equality for all.  And all you can do is wish ill on us.  

That's not only childish, but borders on psychopathy.

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Postby Garrett » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:57 pm

OK DeWalt I suppose I can see your point now. So, since the prison systems are definitely ineffective for the most part, why not have therapy of some sort for all inmates?
From Omaha to Chicago
From Axel to Garrett

Still the same guy

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Postby DeWalt » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:06 pm

Axel wrote:OK DeWalt I suppose I can see your point now. So, since the prison systems are definitely ineffective for the most part, why not have therapy of some sort for all inmates?


Yes, absolutely!

First and foremost, prison needs to be about punishment.  That's why the inmates are there - to be punished for the crime they committed.  And frankly, I'm a proponent of capital punishment, but with serious reservations.  There is just too much evidence of too many wrongful executions to ignore.  Should the schmucks who beat Matthew Shepherd to death be executed?  Yes, absolutely!  Not because Shepherd was gay, but because what they did to a fellow human being was beyond reprehensible.


Then, unless a prisoner is in for life, with absolutely no chance of release, there needs to be therapy, job training, life-skills training, etc. There is no point in turning a person out of prison with no way of surviving, other than to resort to what he was doing that got him in prison in the first place.

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Postby nativeomahan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:43 pm

S33 wrote:
nativeomahan wrote:Scenario 1:  Bar fight.  Man breaks other man's nose with pool cue in drunken fight over girl.  Crime, second degree assault with a dangerous weapon.  Class 3 felony.  1 to 20 years incarceration under Nebraska law.

Scenario 2:  Man attacked without provocation with broken beer bottle while walking to his car from a gay bar by group of gay bashers.  His nose is broken.  Crime, second degree assault with a dangerous weapon.  Class 3 felony.  1 to 20 years incarceration under Nebraska law.

Scenario 3:  Thug attacks 10 year old special needs child walking home from school.  Strikes girl with brick, breaking her nose.  Crime, second degree assault with a dangerous weapon.  Class 3 felony.  1 to 20 years incarceration under Nebraska law.

DeWalt sez it would be wrong to sentence these criminals differently, because, after all, it is the same crime.

Good luck selling that snake oil.


Those are the same crimes - class 3 felonies. You said it yourself. Perhaps the motives were a bit different, but the outcomes of their actions were all the same.


nativeomahan wrote:Correct.  But no one with half a right mind would expect the same sentence to be handed down in each of these cases.



Whatever. Agree to disagree


I've been a prosecutor for 29 years.  You?

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Postby OmahaBen » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:40 am

nativeomahan wrote:I've been a prosecutor for 29 years.  You?


Depends on where you're a prosecutor.

If you're in Sarpy County, then that's meaningless, seeing as your county's position isn't to seek justice but to charge everything to the fullest extent allowed to appear tough on crime for the voters.

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Postby DeWalt » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:52 am

nativeomahan wrote:99.9% of people who were born into in a persecuted minority understand to the core of their psyche what a hate crime is.  99.9% of those who claim not to understand are not members of a persecuted minority.  Coincidence?  I don't think so.  Ignorance?  Yes.  An unwillingness to put themselves in the shoes of a member of a persecuted minority?  Yes.  An inability to empathize with people different from themselves, or to even recognize that many others can't or don't want to conform their lives to what the majority in society thinks is "normal", and that they shouldn't have to?  Yes.

As a former law school professor of mine was known to say to unprepared students..."Ignorance is bliss.  And you, sir, are obviously very blissful today."


93.8% of statistics are made up on the spot, by people who know they can't win an argument with the truth.


Also, if you are actually a prosecutor (which seems highly unlikely at best) you would do well to dispense with the arrogance and condescension.  Being in the "legal profession" puts you in the company of the lowest, most unethical, members of society.

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Postby S33 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:52 am

nativeomahan wrote:I've been a prosecutor for 29 years.  You?


First, I don't believe that. Second, if it is true, that you are an actual prosecutor, then you're a crook and any respect I may have had for you is long gone.
Last edited by S33 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby S33 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:56 am

DeWalt wrote:
Also, if you are actually a prosecutor (which seems highly unlikely at best) you would do well to dispense with the arrogance and condescension.  Being in the "legal profession" puts you in the company of the lowest, most unethical, members of society.


Bingo. Our prison systems are over crowded and down right flooded with people who are in jail because the prosecutor knew all the fancy "legal-speak" and the members of the local judicial system better than the defendant or his/her representation did.

It's no different than a golfers PGA score, the more people you put behind bars, the more points you get on your resume. The sad part, I'm sure you sleep just fine at night.

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Postby cdub » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:00 am

Wow, hostile.  Prosecutors are that bad?  I thought it was the defense lawyers everyone hated!

If the 3 different felony cases above can already be decided differently based upon the specifics of the case (but within the guidelines Im sure) then why would we need a special provision for a hate crime?

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Postby DeWalt » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:00 am

S33 wrote:
DeWalt wrote:
Also, if you are actually a prosecutor (which seems highly unlikely at best) you would do well to dispense with the arrogance and condescension.  Being in the "legal profession" puts you in the company of the lowest, most unethical, members of society.


Bingo. Our prison systems are over crowded and down right flooded with people who are in jail because the prosecutor knew all the fancy "legal-speak" and the members of the local judicial system better than the defendant or his/her representation did.

It's no different than a golfers PGA score, the more people you put behind bars, the more points you get on your resume. The sad part, I'm sure you sleep just fine at night.

You're right.  Our legal system hasn't been about justice for a long, long time.  It has been about money.  And the players within that legal system aren't seeking justice.  They're seeking to win at all costs, make a name for themselves, and cash in.

Nothing to be proud of.

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Postby S33 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:06 am

cdub wrote:Wow, hostile.  Prosecutors are that bad?  I thought it was the defense lawyers everyone hated!


The way I see it, defense lawyers are the lesser of two evils. I would rather see a guilty man go free, than see an innocent man jailed as just another notch on some loser prosecutor's belt loop.

cdub wrote:If the 3 different felony cases above can already be decided differently based upon the specifics of the case (but within the guidelines Im sure) then why would we need a special provision for a hate crime?


Equality by inequality.  :;):
Last edited by S33 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby DeWalt » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:11 am

cdub wrote:Wow, hostile.  Prosecutors are that bad?  I thought it was the defense lawyers everyone hated!

If the 3 different felony cases above can already be decided differently based upon the specifics of the case (but within the guidelines Im sure) then why would we need a special provision for a hate crime?


That's pretty much the point.

First of all, hate crimes legislation would do nothing but further muddy and already muddy and filthy judicial system.  It would give lawyers yet another angle, from which to extort money from people.  It's really not even about the victims.  It's about those who truly benefit from crime - specifically, attorneys and lawyers.

Second, hate crimes legislation is not about equality.  It is about special interests and preferential treatment.  It's a political buzzword at the moment - a vote getter.  


We don't need more new laws.  We simply need a better judicial system.

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Postby mrdwhsr » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:39 pm

Makes perfect sense if your objective is to make it OK to murder the people you hate and not OK to murder the people you like. "Hate crime" lets you feel good about inequality. Governments have been doing that for hundreds of years. It is a shame that many want to make a great leap backwards here.

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Postby Omababe » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:05 pm

mrdwhsr wrote:Makes perfect sense if your objective is to make it OK to murder the people you hate ...


Some very outspoken people seem to think it's OK to bully kids who are "different", whatever that means. :(

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Postby Erik » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:14 pm

Well.. I just need to deal with my place in this world as it will never change.  I hate talking about this, because of the additional hurtful |expletive| that is spewed. We different people need to come to terms with it and quit fighting it.  Life is what it is, and things happen because they have to happen this way.  I just need to learn how to grow numb from it, learn from it and also learn to continue moving forward.  These added obstacles will always be there.

It's my problem to deal with and I don't want to talk about this with any of you anymore (that and some people immediately call sufferers of bullying as whiners).  I'm simply done with it, and I only want to talk about Omaha things from now on.
Last edited by Erik on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby mrdwhsr » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:15 pm

Omababe wrote:
mrdwhsr wrote:Makes perfect sense if your objective is to make it OK to murder the people you hate ...


Some very outspoken people seem to think it's OK to bully kids who are "different", whatever that means. :(


Who said it was OK to bully anybody?

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Postby Omababe » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:51 pm

mrdwhsr wrote:Who said it was OK to bully anybody?


Quite a bit of opposition from the Religious Reich and allies over various anti-bullying legislation.

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Postby S33 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:07 pm

Erik wrote:Well.. I just need to deal with my place in this world as it will never change.  I hate talking about this, because of the additional hurtful |expletive| that is spewed. We different people need to come to terms with it and quit fighting it.  Life is what it is, and things happen because they have to happen this way.  I just need to learn how to grow numb from it, learn from it and also learn to continue moving forward.  These added obstacles will always be there.

It's my problem to deal with and I don't want to talk about this with any of you anymore (that and some people immediately call sufferers of bullying as whiners).  I'm simply done with it, and I only want to talk about Omaha things from now on.


Your place in this world is what you make of it. So far, you have just made yourself a victim. I know my fair share of gay people, and none of them talk of the oppression that radiates from your posts.

Yes, they hear their fair share of bigots making stupid comments now and then, but experiences of overt discrimination or being treated like they are of a subservient class seemed to have escaped many of them.

Erik, this isn't me being a smartass or anything, but I think you really need to seek help to deal with that fact that you are gay. From the way everything sounds, at least on here, you seem to be the only one who has a problem with you being gay.

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Postby mrdwhsr » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:11 pm

Omababe wrote:
mrdwhsr wrote:Who said it was OK to bully anybody?


Quite a bit of opposition from the Religious Reich and allies over various anti-bullying legislation.


I guess I'm out of the loop on anti-bullying legislation. Don't the schools already handle bullying if it is reported? Is this anti-bullying legislation about some of that Facebook / twitter / texting stuff?

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Postby Erik » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:30 pm

S33 wrote:
Erik wrote:Well.. I just need to deal with my place in this world as it will never change.  I hate talking about this, because of the additional hurtful |expletive| that is spewed. We different people need to come to terms with it and quit fighting it.  Life is what it is, and things happen because they have to happen this way.  I just need to learn how to grow numb from it, learn from it and also learn to continue moving forward.  These added obstacles will always be there.

It's my problem to deal with and I don't want to talk about this with any of you anymore (that and some people immediately call sufferers of bullying as whiners).  I'm simply done with it, and I only want to talk about Omaha things from now on.


Your place in this world is what you make of it. So far, you have just made yourself a victim. I know my fair share of gay people, and none of them talk of the oppression that radiates from your posts.

Yes, they hear their fair share of bigots making stupid comments now and then, but experiences of overt discrimination or being treated like they are of a subservient class seemed to have escaped many of them.

Erik, this isn't me being a smartass or anything, but I think you really need to seek help to deal with that fact that you are gay. From the way everything sounds, at least on here, you seem to be the only one who has a problem with you being gay.


Just stop.  You only typed that because you are stirring the pot, you dick.  You don't know anything about us and adding the 'I have friends that are...' does not qualify you as to having the answers and knowing between the rights and wrongs of that group of people.

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Postby S33 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:35 pm

Hey, Erik...whatever!

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Postby DeWalt » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:42 pm

Omababe wrote:
mrdwhsr wrote:Makes perfect sense if your objective is to make it OK to murder the people you hate ...


Some very outspoken people seem to think it's OK to bully kids who are "different", whatever that means. :(


OH THE DRAMA!


Now...  Back to the real world.  Who said that, where and when?

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Postby DeWalt » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:46 pm

Erik wrote:It's my problem to deal with and I don't want to talk about this with any of you anymore (that and some people immediately call sufferers of bullying as whiners).  I'm simply done with it, and I only want to talk about Omaha things from now on.


Thank you for taking the time to tell us that you have nothing to tell us.   :shock:

Are you going to continue to wish ill on me, and pray for me to suffer?  Or are you done with that?

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Postby DeWalt » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:49 pm

Erik wrote:Just stop.  You only typed that because you are stirring the pot, you dick.  You don't know anything about us and adding the 'I have friends that are...' does not qualify you as to having the answers and knowing between the rights and wrongs of that group of people.


Hmmm...  Name calling.

Is everyone allowed to do that, or just you?

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Postby Erik » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:26 pm

DeWalt wrote:
Erik wrote:Just stop.  You only typed that because you are stirring the pot, you dick.  You don't know anything about us and adding the 'I have friends that are...' does not qualify you as to having the answers and knowing between the rights and wrongs of that group of people.


Hmmm...  Name calling.

Is everyone allowed to do that, or just you?


Does that bother you?  Kinda like how you told me that people who face prejudices are whiny that choose to have self-inflected victim mindsets? How would you feel if I called you a classic, self-righteous zealot that is all a know-it-all bigot? How does that make you feel?

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Postby S33 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:40 pm

This got weird, didn't it?

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Postby nebugeater » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:15 pm

Kick back and enjoy


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For the record  NEBUGEATER does not equal BUGEATER    !!!!!!!

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Postby DeWalt » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:10 pm

Erik wrote:
DeWalt wrote:
Erik wrote:Just stop.  You only typed that because you are stirring the pot, you dick.  You don't know anything about us and adding the 'I have friends that are...' does not qualify you as to having the answers and knowing between the rights and wrongs of that group of people.


Hmmm...  Name calling.

Is everyone allowed to do that, or just you?


Does that bother you?  Kinda like how you told me that people who face prejudices are whiny that choose to have self-inflected victim mindsets? How would you feel if I called you a classic, self-righteous zealot that is all a know-it-all bigot? How does that make you feel?


Doesn't really bother me, to be honest.  And it's because you don't know what you're talking about.

By the way, can you find the quote where I told you that "people who face prejudices are whiny..."?  Thanks!


All through this, I've made it perfectly clear that I would be the one to defend you, or go out of my way to help you, or treat you with equality.  I've made it perfectly clear that I do not view you, nor would I treat you, as my enemy.  Because I don't believe you are.  I believe you are my equal - neither above or below me.  But my equal.  That is why I am opposed to hate-crimes legislation.  It separates, classifies, and prejudices people.


You, on the other hand, have been openly hateful to me, you claim that you are praying for ill to befall me, and for me to suffer.  That's pretty nasty.

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Postby cdub » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:31 am

To me the fact that a gay person, black person, Jewish person (take your pick) might suffer from the acts of ignorant people more often doesn't equate to making the crimes different if they rise to that.  Most of the foul treatment that they might suffer doesn't break any laws anyway and hate crime laws wouldn't change it either.  We have to keep trying to change the backward ways of thinking that cause the poor behavior.

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Postby DeWalt » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:58 am

cdub wrote:To me the fact that a gay person, black person, Jewish person (take your pick) might suffer from the acts of ignorant people more often doesn't equate to making the crimes different if they rise to that.  Most of the foul treatment that they might suffer doesn't break any laws anyway and hate crime laws wouldn't change it either.  We have to keep trying to change the backward ways of thinking that cause the poor behavior.

You're exactly right.

A couple years ago, one of my cousins - an uber-redneck - regaled me with this fine joke:  "We know Obama ain't gonna serve his full term, because there's never been a black man work any job for 4 full years."

Idiot.  

Nothing he said was illegal, nor will it ever be.  It isn't a hate crime.  It's just stupid.  And no amount of legislation can change that.

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Postby Big E » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:53 am

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/23/pen ... tml?hpt=T2

Brings up an interesting question:

What is the difference between Arizona-style immigration legislation that legislators know will be challenged and beaten in court - but "sends a message" - and hate crime legislation?

I'll say that I stand on the side of not agreeing with hate crime legislation, but do believe that there needs to be room for sentencing that a standard "10 to 20" guideline might not cover.

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Postby S33 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:07 am

Lets all back up a bit and understand that there are laws against criminal threatening, which is "sending a message" to an individual or group of individuals that you are issuing an imminent threat of bodily harm, or more. So, special "hate laws", which are being defended here from an intimidation and "sending a message" standpoint, are already covered.

Now that that is out of the way, Big E, I think most of your statement is pure speculation that it will be beaten in court. There are millions of Americans who truly believe that law enforcement should have the ability to ask for proper documentation in the event they suspect an individual is here illegally.Beyond that, it's a pretty far-fetched comparison to make seeing as how these people wouldn't have to feel intimidated "or sent a message" if they're here legally.

Our judicial system should not be reformatted to protect those who are breaking the laws or who are not legal US citizens. And I think we already had this "Arizona Law" discussion last year and the conversation fizzled off after myself and a couple others successfully argued our points about the law not only being constitutional, but completely and totally non-discriminatory.

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Postby Big E » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:23 am

I'm speaking in the context of overall effectiveness and equality.  The Arizona laws do nothing to solve the problem of illegal immigration (unless you can show me numbers on this) and open the door to a boatload of unequal treatment.  The same thing can be said about the effectiveness of hate crime legislation.

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Postby S33 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:45 am

Big E wrote:I'm speaking in the context of overall effectiveness and equality.  The Arizona laws do nothing to solve the problem of illegal immigration (unless you can show me numbers on this) and open the door to a boatload of unequal treatment.  The same thing can be said about the effectiveness of hate crime legislation.


It will not solve the entire problem of illegal immigration. The only way to solve that problem is with an economically prosperous and stable Mexico, which is entirely possible, if the government can take back ownership portions of the country from the drug cartels.

But an Arizona law can discourage illegal immigration as they now know they will be held accountable for their status on a day by day basis, rather than being continuously protected by our laws, which makes it nearly impossible for these officers to ask the right questions, let alone, see the documentation.

And the law absolutely does not open any doors for a boatload of unequal treatment, remember? We debated this until we were blue in the face last year only to have, what seemed like, everyone on the same page - that the law does NOTHING more than to mandate that any non-US citizens carry their papers at all times. Regardless of the color of person, when an individual is detained by an officer, they are ALWAYS asked to present identification. This law requires that if the individual does not have state or federally issued identification, they at least present their temporary papers. I don't think that is asking much, do you? In fact, that is THE definition of fair and equal treatment - that everyone prove who they are.

If you think about it, mandating that any person who is not a legal us citizen carry their paperwork, is really no different than myself visiting my niece at school and having to wear a guest ID badge. But no, pansies in this country call that racism.

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Postby Big E » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:23 am

You're assuming equal application/enforcement of the law.  I'm not.  Regardless, I'm not interested in that part of the argument again.  Call it a win if you want.  I don't care.

I'm comparing a pair of laws motivated by racial tension (please don't try to claim otherwise on either) to target a specific group of people or behaviors.  Neither will deter the individual crimes.  Neither will make a significant dent in the underlying problem.

There's an assumption that one will be applied equally in all cases.  There's an assumption that the other will never be.  One is defended vehemently.  One is decried as racist.

I can't figure out how someone can use the same set of criteria or values (or whatever the buzzword du jour is) to come to the conclusion that one is OK and the other isn't.

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Postby S33 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:42 am

Big E wrote:You're assuming equal application/enforcement of the law.  I'm not.  Regardless, I'm not interested in that part of the argument again.  Call it a win if you want.  I don't care.

I'm comparing a pair of laws motivated by racial tension (please don't try to claim otherwise on either) to target a specific group of people or behaviors.  Neither will deter the individual crimes.  Neither will make a significant dent in the underlying problem.

There's an assumption that one will be applied equally in all cases.  There's an assumption that the other will never be.  One is defended vehemently.  One is decried as racist.

I can't figure out how someone can use the same set of criteria or values (or whatever the buzzword du jour is) to come to the conclusion that one is OK and the other isn't.


Well it is an interesting comparison seeing as how both are already covered by existing legislation, however, only one is being enforced.

But I still disagree that both are motivated by the same set of values. In specific, the immigration law was, in fact, written to send a message - to the federal government - to enforce laws to mitigate illegal immigration and protect their states from the financial burden of such.

The other, I will never understand, apparently.
Last edited by S33 on Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Erik » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:53 am

DeWalt wrote:
Erik wrote:
DeWalt wrote:[quote="Erik"]Just stop.  You only typed that because you are stirring the pot, you dick.  You don't know anything about us and adding the 'I have friends that are...' does not qualify you as to having the answers and knowing between the rights and wrongs of that group of people.


Hmmm...  Name calling.

Is everyone allowed to do that, or just you?


Does that bother you?  Kinda like how you told me that people who face prejudices are whiny that choose to have self-inflected victim mindsets? How would you feel if I called you a classic, self-righteous zealot that is all a know-it-all bigot? How does that make you feel?


Doesn't really bother me, to be honest.  And it's because you don't know what you're talking about.

By the way, can you find the quote where I told you that "people who face prejudices are whiny..."?  Thanks!


All through this, I've made it perfectly clear that I would be the one to defend you, or go out of my way to help you, or treat you with equality.  I've made it perfectly clear that I do not view you, nor would I treat you, as my enemy.  Because I don't believe you are.  I believe you are my equal - neither above or below me.  But my equal.  That is why I am opposed to hate-crimes legislation.  It separates, classifies, and prejudices people.


You, on the other hand, have been openly hateful to me, you claim that you are praying for ill to befall me, and for me to suffer.  That's pretty nasty.[/quote]

DeWalt, I was over the top.  When this discussion comes up, a strong flow of emotions (some unreasonable) comes up that interferes with my ability to reason with people.  Most of the time, I am a stand up - easy to talk to kind of guy.  I am doing very well career and education-wise as well as my interpersonal skills are normally very sharp.  I have a strong sense of empathy for people and will go out of my way to do things for friends and colleagues for many different reasons.  When it comes to this, I simply become too schizophrenic to have any chance of a reasonable debate.  There is a real reason for this, and one that really sucks... But one that only I can overcome and must overcome.  A reasonable person would not expect what I am expecting when it comes to this conversation or the end result of this debate.  I really have to learn to simply stop and re-adjust my gears as I simply am not capable of handling this conversation at all!

That said, I am sorry to both you and S33.

DeWalt
Human Relations
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:12 am
Location: Omaha

Postby DeWalt » Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:50 pm

^ Hey - we're cool.

joeglow
Planning Board
Posts: 2729
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:04 pm

Postby joeglow » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:45 pm

Big E wrote:I'm comparing a pair of laws motivated by racial tension (please don't try to claim otherwise on either)


Spoken like someone who has not had their livelihood stolen by an illegal immigrant.


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