Budget: Fire Department

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Postby guitarguy » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:51 pm

A perfect example of how the unions have ruined our country..

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Postby Coyote » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:45 am

This mornings' OWH made it sound like this could get nasty, Fire Chief now under investigation (Presumably so he could now get fired). Nobody will say what the added points to the Letter of Agreement would be...
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Postby Jason4225 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:23 pm

guitarguy wrote:A perfect example of how the unions have ruined our country..


Unions, and especially public sector unions have gotten a bad name lately. Much of it has been justifiable. We do however, have to thank organized labor for a lot of the things we take for granted these days.

•End child labor
•Establish the legal right of workers to form unions and collectively bargain for wages, benefits and working conditions
•Establish the 8 hour work day and paid overtime
•Win workers' comp benefits for workers injured on the job
•Secure unemployment insurance for workers who lose their jobs
•Secure a guaranteed minimum wage
•Improve workplace safety and reduce on the job fatalities
•Win pensions for workers
•Win health care insurance for workers
•Win paid sick leave, vacations, and holidays as standard benefits for most workers
•Win the right for public sector workers to collectively bargain
•Win passage of the Civil Right Acts and Title VII which outlaws job discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex or national origin
•Win passage of the Occupational Safety and Health Act
•Win passage of the Family Medical Leave Act

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Postby jessep28 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:20 pm

You refer to public sector unions in the first person. Which one do you represent?
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Postby HR Paperstacks » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:31 pm

While I believe private sector unions are ok, public sector unions should not exist.

FDR made a great point in this letter:
All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."


Also this statement from a New York Supreme Court judge in 1943:
To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous.

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Postby RNcyanide » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:47 pm

I agree. My father belongs to IBEW at OPPD and gets good benefits from his union. However, it does allow for the introduction of member politics into the workplace, of which he seems to be a constant target.
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Postby Jason4225 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:45 pm

jessep28 wrote:You refer to public sector unions in the first person. Which one do you represent?


I wasn't referring to public sector unions in the first person. When I was saying "we", I was referring to all workers, union and non-union. I do belong to a union, the IBEW local 499. While belonging to a union, I do agree that many union workers have a sense of entitlement for what they have gotten and are not as willing to compromise as they should be. Just after I joined the union, we lost our pensions which I agreed we should not have been able to keep. Pensions are from a bygone union era and not sustainable in our current global economy. I will save further union discussion for another time/thread.

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Postby Linkin5 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:50 am

guitarguy wrote:A perfect example of how the unions have ruined our country..


How have unions ruined this country?!

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Postby S33 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:45 pm

Linkin5 wrote:
guitarguy wrote:A perfect example of how the unions have ruined our country..


How have unions ruined this country?!
Well, for one example, union-driven wages have forced an incredible amount of international outsourcing over the last 30 years.

But I don't think it's "ruining" the country. I think lousy presidents, a lazy and unaccountable congress, and corporate influence is ruining the country.

And stupid people. lots of stupid people.
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Postby Coyote » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:48 pm

Not to mention how corporations and their tax havens and lenient laws have ruined out country...
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Postby Linkin5 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:11 pm

S33 wrote:
Linkin5 wrote:
guitarguy wrote:A perfect example of how the unions have ruined our country..


How have unions ruined this country?!
Well, for one example, union-driven wages have forced an incredible amount of international outsourcing over the last 30 years.

But I don't think it's "ruining" the country. I think lousy presidents, a lazy and unaccountable congress, and corporate influence is ruining the country.

And stupid people. lots of stupid people.


Yeah, I'm not saying unions are perfect, but would hardly say they ruined our country.

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Postby guitarguy » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:19 pm

Can you say.. Unfunded Liabilities? If you factor those in our national debt is like 100 trillion..

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Postby S33 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:32 pm

guitarguy wrote:Can you say.. Unfunded Liabilities? If you factor those in our national debt is like 100 trillion..
Yeah, but isn't most of that private liabilities?
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Postby guitarguy » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:58 pm

Any public sector union that has pensions across our nation is adding to the unfunded liability.. Since Nebraska is not a heavy union state we don't have as much of a problem with it here except for the Police and Firefighters.. if you guys recall every single time how unaccommodating they are during the negotiation process you'll understand why they basically end up getting whatever they want.

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Postby S33 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:35 pm

guitarguy wrote:Any public sector union that has pensions across our nation is adding to the unfunded liability.. Since Nebraska is not a heavy union state we don't have as much of a problem with it here except for the Police and Firefighters.. if you guys recall every single time how unaccommodating they are during the negotiation process you'll understand why they basically end up getting whatever they want.
But you do see the irony in how most private unions are formed as a necessity in lieu of corporate greed, right?

I'm actually half agreeing with you, and I've definitely taken note of the thuggish, mob-mentality with which the Fire/Police unions seem to operate. But there's a heck of a lot more wrong with this country than just the unions. You speak of union's unfunded liabilities on the public sector and the debt, but why is there even a mentality in congress that debt is simply a benign outcome of capitalism and a privately run federal reserve?

Heck, congress doesn't even talk about debt, anymore. Why? because they all know the system is designed to amass debt, crash, repeat.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill

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Postby guitarguy » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:31 pm

In a way I believe members of Congress have given up caring about debt because they can pass whatever they want and by the time it takes effect they will most likely be voted out of office and their hands will be cleaned of any wrong doing.

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Postby RNcyanide » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:23 am

guitarguy wrote:In a way I believe members of Congress have given up caring about debt because they can pass whatever they want and by the time it takes effect they will most likely be voted out of office and their hands will be cleaned of any wrong doing.


Not to mention that members of Congress receive varying levels of benefits (depending on positions held such as Minority/Majority Leaders, Pro Tempore, etc.) that they receive for life...
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Postby thenewguy » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:23 am

S33 wrote:
guitarguy wrote:Any public sector union that has pensions across our nation is adding to the unfunded liability.. Since Nebraska is not a heavy union state we don't have as much of a problem with it here except for the Police and Firefighters.. if you guys recall every single time how unaccommodating they are during the negotiation process you'll understand why they basically end up getting whatever they want.
But you do see the irony in how most private unions are formed as a necessity in lieu of corporate greed, right?

I'm actually half agreeing with you, and I've definitely taken note of the thuggish, mob-mentality with which the Fire/Police unions seem to operate. But there's a heck of a lot more wrong with this country than just the unions. You speak of union's unfunded liabilities on the public sector and the debt, but why is there even a mentality in congress that debt is simply a benign outcome of capitalism and a privately run federal reserve?

Heck, congress doesn't even talk about debt, anymore. Why? because they all know the system is designed to amass debt, crash, repeat.


exactly.
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Postby bigredmed » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:12 am

These guys get away with their evil deeds because of the above.

When one gets caught for some nefarious act, the crowd that supports them starts up the "what about those guys?" Song.   The outcome is that the jerks never get busted.  If 5 guys are all dirty, and you catch one, the correct response is to go off on the guilty that you catch.   You will make incremental progress in cleaning the swamp, and you will cloak your side in moral righteousness, which will make it that much easier to bust the next dbag.

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Postby guitarguy » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:09 pm

I only hope that for the sake of everyone in this country that we begin to hold our politicians feet to the fire and if they mess up.. they better hope they make friends in prison because its going to be a while before they get out. So sick of the lawyer culture the rich people in this country use to get away with everything through bribery, back room buyouts, cover ups etc. :twisted:

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Postby RNcyanide » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:40 pm

This is not something I feel optimistic about.
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Postby bigredmed » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:34 pm

guitarguy wrote:I only hope that for the sake of everyone in this country that we begin to hold our politicians feet to the fire and if they mess up.. they better hope they make friends in prison because its going to be a while before they get out. So sick of the lawyer culture the rich people in this country use to get away with everything through bribery, back room buyouts, cover ups etc. :twisted:


Yes.

We can start the change by not reflexing to cover them or act like a Chatty Cathy doll creating the "long list of other offenders"  to distract attention away from your side.  If a right winger gets caught, then we conservatives and right leaning libertarians need to be the first in line to call for his/her arrest and to settle for nothing less.  Same goes double for left wingers.   If some union causes trouble, then they have to go down.  Even if they are big dem supporters.   It goes double because the media tends to slant left and so you are going to have to make more noise to drown out the media bias that always covers left wing failures.

Our esteemed fire union is a classic example.  These guys have tried bully-boy tactics to push their way into cushy work rules and a pension system that exists only in Fantasy Island and in their fevered little minds.  The rest of the tax payers (including other city workers who can't touch their deal) are going to be paying for these chuckleheads for decades to come.  

Stothert is dead on when she is trying to break this.  We all (every tax payer in the city) should join in and call them out.  

Once these manipulators learn that the cost to them is personal and they are not going to get to hide behind a bunch of fellow travelers that will automatically jump to their defense, we will start to see cleaner government from both sides.  After all, rats hide in the dark.  Take the darkness away, and they will leave for friendlier cheese.



And the mic drops....


:evil:

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Postby guitarguy » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:44 pm

Stotherts agenda of breaking the local Union control is reason enough for all of us to empathetically support her efforts.. As local tax payers there is no reason why we should support an organization that uses the threat of municipality services as ransom for the continuation of an unsustainable pension system that should have never been allowed to happen in the first place.. If people think the taxes are high in Omaha and Nebraska in general is because we have to raise property taxes and other tax rates to accommodate the fact that we have an unsustainable pension system we are paying only because some nitwit mayor 10 years ago negotiated the increase that we see today.. So by electing Mayors that refuse to negotiate with these organizations we should begin to see a leveling off of the local tax rates which will always result in a more robust local economy..

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Postby S33 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:13 pm

bigredmed wrote: chuckleheads for decades to come.  

Stothert is dead on when she is trying to break this.  We all (every tax payer in the city) should join in and call them out.  

Just look at this forum as an example, most hate Stohert and her policies. Even if a particular policy were extremely beneficial to the city, left-leaning voters would oppose it, simply because she's not "on their team". And the same would hold true with a liberal mayor and conservative voters.

It's a total crock of sh*t is what it is.
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Postby S33 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:20 pm

guitarguy wrote:Stotherts agenda of breaking the local Union control is reason enough for all of us to empathetically support her efforts.. As local tax payers there is no reason why we should support an organization that uses the threat of municipality services as ransom for the continuation of an unsustainable pension system that should have never been allowed to happen in the first place.. If people think the taxes are high in Omaha and Nebraska in general is because we have to raise property taxes and other tax rates to accommodate the fact that we have an unsustainable pension system we are paying only because some nitwit mayor 10 years ago negotiated the increase that we see today.. So by electing Mayors that refuse to negotiate with these organizations we should begin to see a leveling off of the local tax rates which will always result in a more robust local economy..
BUT THEY'RE GONNA SAVE US FROM FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill

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Postby RNcyanide » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:26 pm

S33 wrote:
guitarguy wrote:Stotherts agenda of breaking the local Union control is reason enough for all of us to empathetically support her efforts.. As local tax payers there is no reason why we should support an organization that uses the threat of municipality services as ransom for the continuation of an unsustainable pension system that should have never been allowed to happen in the first place.. If people think the taxes are high in Omaha and Nebraska in general is because we have to raise property taxes and other tax rates to accommodate the fact that we have an unsustainable pension system we are paying only because some nitwit mayor 10 years ago negotiated the increase that we see today.. So by electing Mayors that refuse to negotiate with these organizations we should begin to see a leveling off of the local tax rates which will always result in a more robust local economy..
BUT THEY'RE GONNA SAVE US FROM FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Unless they strike.
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Postby S33 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:36 pm

RNcyanide wrote:
S33 wrote:
guitarguy wrote:Stotherts agenda of breaking the local Union control is reason enough for all of us to empathetically support her efforts.. As local tax payers there is no reason why we should support an organization that uses the threat of municipality services as ransom for the continuation of an unsustainable pension system that should have never been allowed to happen in the first place.. If people think the taxes are high in Omaha and Nebraska in general is because we have to raise property taxes and other tax rates to accommodate the fact that we have an unsustainable pension system we are paying only because some nitwit mayor 10 years ago negotiated the increase that we see today.. So by electing Mayors that refuse to negotiate with these organizations we should begin to see a leveling off of the local tax rates which will always result in a more robust local economy..
BUT THEY'RE GONNA SAVE US FROM FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Unless they strike.
Private enterprise would love to see that happen, then let's see how well they leverage themselves.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill

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Postby guitarguy » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:21 pm

Local unions here would be pi$$ing in the wind if they tried striking since there are no laws on the books that protect them from being replaced by another organization.. Since Nebraska is a State that doesn't have collective bargaining rights where unions make a legal protection of themselves and their business.

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Postby jessep28 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:39 pm

Former/Current Fire Chief McDonnell is a troll. After that deal fell through, he was probably like "U MAD?!"
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Postby RNcyanide » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:49 pm

guitarguy wrote:Local unions here would be pi$$ing in the wind if they tried striking since there are no laws on the books that protect them from being replaced by another organization.. Since Nebraska is a State that doesn't have collective bargaining rights where unions make a legal protection of themselves and their business.


Thank god for that. How awesome would it be if we ended up like Detroit.
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Postby Omababe » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:58 am

The talking heads just announced that "they" will now be investigating the Chief's overall-tenure employment.

Just what the city needs, an old-fashioned witch hunt! :(

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Postby RNcyanide » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:34 am

Omababe wrote:The talking heads just announced that "they" will now be investigating the Chief's overall-tenure employment.

Just what the city needs, an old-fashioned witch hunt! :(


What about it?
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Postby jessep28 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:53 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g[/youtube]
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Postby RNcyanide » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:56 am

I bet McDonnell is made of wood...
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Postby nativeomahan » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:47 am

RNcyanide wrote:
S33 wrote:
guitarguy wrote:Stotherts agenda of breaking the local Union control is reason enough for all of us to empathetically support her efforts.. As local tax payers there is no reason why we should support an organization that uses the threat of municipality services as ransom for the continuation of an unsustainable pension system that should have never been allowed to happen in the first place.. If people think the taxes are high in Omaha and Nebraska in general is because we have to raise property taxes and other tax rates to accommodate the fact that we have an unsustainable pension system we are paying only because some nitwit mayor 10 years ago negotiated the increase that we see today.. So by electing Mayors that refuse to negotiate with these organizations we should begin to see a leveling off of the local tax rates which will always result in a more robust local economy..
BUT THEY'RE GONNA SAVE US FROM FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Unless they strike.


Public unions have agreed to give up the right to strike.  That always seems to get forgotten in these conversations.

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Postby RNcyanide » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:24 am

nativeomahan wrote:
RNcyanide wrote:
S33 wrote:[quote="guitarguy"]Stotherts agenda of breaking the local Union control is reason enough for all of us to empathetically support her efforts.. As local tax payers there is no reason why we should support an organization that uses the threat of municipality services as ransom for the continuation of an unsustainable pension system that should have never been allowed to happen in the first place.. If people think the taxes are high in Omaha and Nebraska in general is because we have to raise property taxes and other tax rates to accommodate the fact that we have an unsustainable pension system we are paying only because some nitwit mayor 10 years ago negotiated the increase that we see today.. So by electing Mayors that refuse to negotiate with these organizations we should begin to see a leveling off of the local tax rates which will always result in a more robust local economy..
BUT THEY'RE GONNA SAVE US FROM FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Unless they strike.


Public unions have agreed to give up the right to strike.  That always seems to get forgotten in these conversations.[/quote]

I did not know that. Thanks for the correction!
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Postby Coyote » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:04 pm

KETV just announced there is a resolution to this - and the Fire Chief will step down sometime soon. Details later...
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Postby Coyote » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:08 pm

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Postby bigredmed » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:29 pm



He got less retirement and she only blocked reductions till December instead of June.

Today, I am so glad I voted for her.  Now we get to see how she deals with the MECA mess.

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Postby RNcyanide » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:35 pm

I wish I could have voted for her, I live in Sarpy  :(
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