Bosco55David wrote:While I agree that the working conditions are much better than they were decades ago, unions are still very useful. Even with the unions, OPD and OFD are still working off their payscales from nearly 3 years ago. 3 years ago they were getting paid pretty good, but now they're lagging behind other comparable departments.
Lagging behind what departments? Â However, it still leads to the question if so many people are willing to work for the wages they are currently being offered (such that they are turned away by the hundreds), I have a hard time saying they are underpaid. Â Sure, everyone wants more money for their job, but the market does a pretty job of giving everyone with the proper skill set the opportunity to compete for the job at the pay they are willing to work for.
Bosco55David wrote:Completely false. Unions are there to protect the best interest of the members, just like the businesses want to protect their best interests. .
-What best interests of the union members would not be met if OPD and OFD were not unionized? Â
Bosco55David wrote:I'm glad to hear you're doing well and that your company treats you good and provides raises. But for every story like yours, there are many more that are exactly the opposite. I could tell you a few stories of my own working experiences where I would have killed for union protection.
-Again, I don’t have a problem with unions if you are talking about working conditions. Â However, when it comes to pay, I have not seen an issue at most places. Â However, part of my view is probably based in the fact that my wife and I intentionally picked the fields we are in (accounting and nursing) because we knew we were on the right side the supply/demand equation. Â In looking at how the two fields operate, it is clear which is more efficient in attracting top talent and which has led to huge increase in new students entering the fields of study. Â Frankly, in many cases unions seem to want the same pay as people in high demand fields. Â Seriously, do grocery scanners really deserve the pay they get as a result of their union in California? Â I did that job when I was in high school and can assure you, it IS a minimum wage job.
Bosco55David wrote:So what exactly is the problem? Does it suck that she got the same raise as some of the lazy workers? Yeah, but she still got a raise. Again, I've had jobs where I would have loved to have had a raise, even if my lazy coworkers got the same one.
-The cases where I seen good employees NOT get raises are because the company could not afford it. Â I don’t get this mindset. Â Lets REQUIRE the company to eventually go bankrupt (ala GM) and all of us lose our jobs so we can feel good that we got a raise when one was not affordable.
Bosco55David wrote: People keep saying that, but it's never been true. Just more mindless anti-union propaganda.
-When it comes to pay, I fail to see how this is anti-union propaganda. Â In the example I gave about my wife, they were not a union. Â It simply highlighted how not compensating your top performers accordingly ultimately is to the detriment of the consumer, as they will not receive the top service. Â
Bosco55David wrote: I don't see how.
-Did you read the example I gave of my wife? Explain to me how someone who provides top care for all her patients and then takes on other people’s patients deserves the exact same money as the people who sit in the break room and BS (or even sleep in patient’s rooms while working).
Bosco55David wrote: I'd have to respond to that on a case by case basis. Provide some examples and I'll refute them as I see fit.
1. OPD union. Â Clearly the pay is not a deterrent from attracting talent (simply by looking at the applications in every recruiting class). Â And yet, people demand that they be paid more. Â Explain to me how when people are perfectly willing to work a job for “x,” it is only fair they be paid “x plus 100?”
2. GM: Â CLEAR example of a union being willing to drive a company into nothing to get more money for their employees. Â Being willing to pay employees almost full days of salaries to do nothing but sit in a room watch television all day for years.
3. NY Teacher’s Union. Â 20/20 did a piece a couple years on this group. Â Apparently, they have over 100 teachers that do nothing but sit in a room all day long. Â These teachers had relations with students that the school did not approve of. Â However, under the union contract, they could not fire them, so they would rather pay them to do nothing before putting them in a classroom with students.
Bosco55David wrote: That has anything to do with the union. Also, why are they not getting hired? Are they failing the tests? Not scoring high enough? The hiring process is pretty long and they could have failed out at numerous points along the way.
-Think of it this way. Â I have a test that I apply to all future applicants, which I expect a score of 70 out of 100 to be able to perform the required tasks. Â I have 10 open slots and 200 people apply for it. Â 140 of those people get under 70 and will not meet the minimum requirements of the job. Â That leaves me with 60 people who can definitely meet the requirements of the job. Â This tells me, the pay is too high for the market as the number of qualified people I am attracting is six times what I have to offer.
Bosco55David wrote: Police departments had extremely tough times recruiting enough qualified officers before the pay started catching up to the real world in the last 10 years or so. In fact, as recently as a couple years ago, OPD was taking all kinds of steps to attract new recruits because they couldn't fill the classes.
-Yeah, and unions weren’t needed to do that. Â Market conditions led the OPD to recognize what they needed to do to attract the numbers and they did it. Â
Bosco55David wrote: OPD's starting pay is $36,227. That's decent money, but no where even close to "over-compensation"
-That is simply your opinion (and mine). Â However, the market seems to disagree with you. Â There are PLENTY of qualified people who are willing to work for that and even less. Â Thus, it is OVER-compensation in that the OPD is paying MORE than they need to and still attract qualified talent