M's Pub Explosion and Fire

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Re: M's Pub

Postby Brad » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:34 pm

Coyote wrote:I heard that one of the Mercers brought the blueprints of this building to OFP so they could see what they were up against.
Helped them to know at what they should be looking.


Yep, the fire chief said that during the press conference today.
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Re: M's Pub

Postby Coyote » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:25 am

OWH wrote:John Feddin, whose building houses City Limits, Tea Smith, Billy Frogg's, Stokes Grill and Bar and upper-floor apartments, said his structure came through the blaze relatively unscathed.

Some basements, however, were flooded by 3 or 4 feet of water from fire hoses directed at M's Pub for roughly 40 hours.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Coyote » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:21 pm

Feds investigating M's Pub fire; 'If safe and acceptable procedures had been followed, this would not have happened'

Janice Podsada - World-Herald staff writer wrote:Federal authorities have begun a formal investigation of North Central Service Inc., which was involved in a drilling operation near the site of the explosion and fire that ravaged the historic M's Pub building in the Old Market.

“These incidents are preventable if OSHA standards are followed,” he said.The official investigation was opened late Monday, Funke said; OSHA people have been on the site since Sunday.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby RNcyanide » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:19 pm

I'm fairly confident that some heads are going to roll over this. I don't want to feed into speculation, but this seems pretty cut and dry.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Brad » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:53 pm

Here are some of Saturday's Tweets on Mean Streets.

http://meanstreetsoma.com/ms-pub-fire-january-9th-2015/
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby RNcyanide » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:45 am

The idea of litigation is starting to get thrown around a lot now.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby MTO » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:31 am

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby skinzfan23 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:35 am

Wow, thanks for the interesting perspective and looking down into the building.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby GetUrban » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:55 am

The ice doesn't look quite as bad now in those views. I'm still optimistic the shell can be saved and am holding out hope. They'll probably have to come in with a new interior steel structure to shore everything up, either temporary or permanent.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Coyote » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:21 pm

RNcyanide wrote:The idea of litigation is starting to get thrown around a lot now.



Now that smoke has cleared from M's Pub, the air smells of litigation

Russell Hubbard - World-Herald staff writer wrote:A similar incident occurred just a few years ago in Kansas City, Missouri. Last year, the owners of restaurant there were awarded $5.9 million by a Missouri state court jury after a 2013 natural gas explosion killed one person and injured 15.
That incident generated more than a dozen lawsuits.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby S33 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:25 pm

RNcyanide wrote:The idea of litigation is starting to get thrown around a lot now.

As it should.

You have what is rumored to be ill advised, underground construction of fiber optic, apparently not OSHA compliant, it causes a significant gas leak, which then finds and ignition source and blows the doors right off a mid-up scale restaurant, full of staff and patrons, and injuries ensue...

Add in the damage to other businesses, apartments and condos, loss of pets, and the enormous cost of local agencies to fight the fire, secure the area and investigate.

Whoever is responsible, is 100% screwed, them and their insurer.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby S33 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:27 pm

GetUrban wrote:The ice doesn't look quite as bad now in those views. I'm still optimistic the shell can be saved and am holding out hope. They'll probably have to come in with a new interior steel structure to shore everything up, either temporary or permanent.

At the very least, the rebuild can be made to match the area, maybe even repurpose some of the ornate steal on the exterior.

It will be back. If it sits an empty lot for any significant amount of time, the city failed.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Coyote » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:39 pm

City inspectors provide update on Old Market fire

Chinh Doan - KETV wrote:City inspectors said they're looking into ways to melt the ice to help the investigation move along quicker. The area in the Old Market will be taped off for several more days, and could last weeks.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby iamjacobm » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:44 pm

I was hoping that this warm stretch would help out, but the freeze thaw cycle will probably hurt more than a deep freeze...

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby S33 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:31 am

iamjacobm wrote:I was hoping that this warm stretch would help out, but the freeze thaw cycle will probably hurt more than a deep freeze...

Either way, for anything to move forward, the ice has got to come down...
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby jessep28 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:42 pm

Torpedo heaters?
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:01 pm

S33 wrote:
RNcyanide wrote:The idea of litigation is starting to get thrown around a lot now.

As it should.

You have what is rumored to be ill advised, underground construction of fiber optic, apparently not OSHA compliant, it causes a significant gas leak, which then finds and ignition source and blows the doors right off a mid-up scale restaurant, full of staff and patrons, and injuries ensue...

Add in the damage to other businesses, apartments and condos, loss of pets, and the enormous cost of local agencies to fight the fire, secure the area and investigate.

Whoever is responsible, is 100% screwed, them and their insurer.


And rightfully so they deserve to be screwed for ruining and endangering 100's of peoples lives. Speaking for myself I would like to see the members of that crew criminally punished for not calling 9-11 or the Metropolitan Utilities District. The idea that the crew stood around not doing anything while hundreds of people were in mortal danger is heinous and disgusting and unacceptable.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby jessep28 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:27 pm

Unless a crime was committed because of the work crew's alleged negligence, or it can be proved that the work crew intended to cause that explosion, it's all likely going to be a civil matter. It's not a crime that I know of to not report a gas leak.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby S33 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:57 pm

jessep28 wrote:Unless a crime was committed because of the work crew's alleged negligence, or it can be proved that the work crew intended to cause that explosion, it's all likely going to be a civil matter. It's not a crime that I know of to not report a gas leak.

That and we still have no proof they caused the leak. (As I last knew)
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby ricko » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:53 am

This disaster really has me bummed. I can't think of a more iconic intersection in Omaha---been going there (OM) since 67 or 68 when it was hippie central---Nouvelle Eve and M's were galleries featuring the best artists in Omaha at the time. I hope they can save the shell and rebuild it from within; and if not, re-construct the entire building as it was using the salvaged bricks or at least antique bricks-----I think the building is that important.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby RNcyanide » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:23 am

They're using hot hoses to melt the ice on the street. The freeze and thaw cycles are only redistributing the ice inside the ruin.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby guy4omaha » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:00 pm

ricko wrote:This disaster really has me bummed. I can't think of a more iconic intersection in Omaha---been going there (OM) since 67 or 68 when it was hippie central---Nouvelle Eve and M's were galleries featuring the best artists in Omaha at the time. I hope they can save the shell and rebuild it from within; and if not, re-construct the entire building as it was using the salvaged bricks or at least antique bricks-----I think the building is that important.


My sentiments and hopes as well.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Omaha1000 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:49 pm

ricko wrote:This disaster really has me bummed. I can't think of a more iconic intersection in Omaha---been going there (OM) since 67 or 68 when it was hippie central---Nouvelle Eve and M's were galleries featuring the best artists in Omaha at the time. I hope they can save the shell and rebuild it from within; and if not, re-construct the entire building as it was using the salvaged bricks or at least antique bricks-----I think the building is that important.


I agree that this is the most irreplaceable intersection in Omaha and it is not fun to think about how this central spot in the Old Market is going to be missing for quite some time.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Brad » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:01 pm

Flew over in the Helicopter about noon today (Friday). Here is what it looked like:

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Direct link if you want to see it a little bigger than the forum allows:
http://bradwilliamsphotography.com/old- ... 8A9242.jpg




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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby jelizh » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:33 pm

I had completely forgotten about an eerily similar incident in KC at JJ's restaurant until the World Herald had mentioned it. Given the M's building was a bit larger, we were very fortunate to not lose any lives. I wouldn't be surprised if litigation were to settle in a similar manner.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/ar ... 52001.html

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby PotatoeEatsFish » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:01 pm

Direct quote from the opinions section in the OWH.

"People in Omaha have always been talking about not enough parking in the Old Market for a long time. Now that fire has destroyed the building on 11th Street and Howard Street, that would be a great place for a high-rise parking garage. Then maybe the city could lower the cost of parking meters and bring more people to the Old Market."
-Gary Masek

A high-rise parking garage would look really f@#king classy in the Old Market. I hope he's being sarcastic...
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby jessep28 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:14 pm

PotatoeEatsFish wrote:Direct quote from the opinions section in the OWH.

"People in Omaha have always been talking about not enough parking in the Old Market for a long time. Now that fire has destroyed the building on 11th Street and Howard Street, that would be a great place for a high-rise parking garage. Then maybe the city could lower the cost of parking meters and bring more people to the Old Market."
-Gary Masek

A high-rise parking garage would look really f@#king classy in the Old Market. I hope he's being sarcastic...


Lol, another parking structure that will sit underutilized. That's a brilliant idea. I hope that he's being sarcastic too.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby daveoma » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:13 pm

PotatoeEatsFish wrote:Direct quote from the opinions section in the OWH.

"People in Omaha have always been talking about not enough parking in the Old Market for a long time. Now that fire has destroyed the building on 11th Street and Howard Street, that would be a great place for a high-rise parking garage. Then maybe the city could lower the cost of parking meters and bring more people to the Old Market."
-Gary Masek

A high-rise parking garage would look really f@#king classy in the Old Market. I hope he's being sarcastic...

Yikes, what an idiot!

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Busguy2010 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:50 pm

PotatoeEatsFish wrote:Direct quote from the opinions section in the OWH.

"People in Omaha have always been talking about not enough parking in the Old Market for a long time. Now that fire has destroyed the building on 11th Street and Howard Street, that would be a great place for a high-rise parking garage. Then maybe the city could lower the cost of parking meters and bring more people to the Old Market."
-Gary Masek

A high-rise parking garage would look really f@#king classy in the Old Market. I hope he's being sarcastic...


I'm leaning toward sarcasm, but would not rule out this guys idea being sincere.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:14 am

There is not even close to enough room there for a parking garage so that idea is dead out of the gate. Another dead idea is saving the outer shell of that building. Not happening and not even close to safe. No big deal, they can build a new structure with bricks that will blend in to the old market just fine. Right now that building is so unsafe it is not even funny. If just one of those bricks from 4 stories up manages to fall and tumble into the street it could kill someone.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby jessep28 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:31 pm

GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:There is not even close to enough room there for a parking garage so that idea is dead out of the gate. Another dead idea is saving the outer shell of that building. Not happening and not even close to safe. No big deal, they can build a new structure with bricks that will blend in to the old market just fine. Right now that building is so unsafe it is not even funny. If just one of those bricks from 4 stories up manages to fall and tumble into the street it could kill someone.


They may be able to save the outside shell and just build a structure around it.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby bigredmed » Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:51 pm

Parking there would not be a good use. We would be better off simply using architectural references from the old building, but building a new one using modern construction methods and materials.

The modern methods and materials can't be stressed enough. While the fire started from a natural gas explosion, the old Timber framing and voids were big contributors to the sum of the devastation.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Brad » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:59 pm

Brad wrote:Flew over in the Helicopter about noon today (Friday). Here is what it looked like:

Image



Couple more from Yesterday:

1.
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2.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Professor Woland » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:12 pm

bigredmed wrote:Parking there would not be a good use. We would be better off simply using architectural references from the old building, but building a new one using modern construction methods and materials.

The modern methods and materials can't be stressed enough. While the fire started from a natural gas explosion, the old Timber framing and voids were big contributors to the sum of the devastation.


I agree. If the shell can't be saved building a new building that looks old would be tacky and dishonest looking. While a lot of the newer construction in the Old Market area has tried to fit in with the stuff around it, it won't look good there. The corner is in the midst of too many nice old buildings for an imitation to look good at all. Something contemporary with some references to the surrounding architecture would be much better, I think. Whatever goes there, if the walls can't be saved, needs to be of the highest quality in both design and execution, but I hope it's glass and metal, not brick.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Midwestern » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:24 pm

I really, really hope it isn't an all glass and metal structure. How would a glass structure fit the theme of the Old Market? If we were talking the borders of the OM, maybe. But not right at the intersection of 11th & Howard.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Brad » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:30 pm

I'm not ready to write off this building yet. I still think it can be saved.
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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Professor Woland » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:36 pm

Midwestern wrote:I really, really hope it isn't an all glass and metal structure. How would a glass structure fit the theme of the Old Market? If we were talking the borders of the OM, maybe. But not right at the intersection of 11th & Howard.


You see that kind of eclecticism all the time in New York, Chicago and San Francisco. I don't mind the imitation old buildings on the outskirts of the Old Market, but it will stick out like a sore thumb at that corner. A good contemporary building will also stick out, but in a good way.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Midwestern » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:45 pm

Professor Woland wrote:
Midwestern wrote:I really, really hope it isn't an all glass and metal structure. How would a glass structure fit the theme of the Old Market? If we were talking the borders of the OM, maybe. But not right at the intersection of 11th & Howard.


You see that kind of eclecticism all the time in New York, Chicago and San Francisco. I don't mind the imitation old buildings on the outskirts of the Old Market, but it will stick out like a sore thumb at that corner. A good contemporary building will also stick out, but in a good way.


No. Not at the intersection of 11th & Howard. The Old Market is one of Nebraska's most recognizable tourist attractions. It's right in the name. OLD Market. That's the point of it. It takes you back to an older time. You would start ruining the branding and ambiance with a glass structure.

There is plenty of space elsewhere in downtown for eclectic mixes of structures. But to put a glass structure at the main focal point of the Old Market would not be smart, in my humble opinion.

I think there's basically no chance of that happening anyway. If the structure has to be completely re-built, I would except something similar to that building that's under construction right now in Dundee. Maybe a little more ornate.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Professor Woland » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:58 pm

Midwestern wrote:
Professor Woland wrote:
Midwestern wrote:I really, really hope it isn't an all glass and metal structure. How would a glass structure fit the theme of the Old Market? If we were talking the borders of the OM, maybe. But not right at the intersection of 11th & Howard.


You see that kind of eclecticism all the time in New York, Chicago and San Francisco. I don't mind the imitation old buildings on the outskirts of the Old Market, but it will stick out like a sore thumb at that corner. A good contemporary building will also stick out, but in a good way.


No. Not at the intersection of 11th & Howard. The Old Market is one of Nebraska's most recognizable tourist attractions. It's right in the name. OLD Market. That's the point of it. It takes you back to an older time. You would start ruining the branding and ambiance with a glass structure.

There is plenty of space elsewhere in downtown for eclectic mixes of structures. But to put a glass structure at the main focal point of the Old Market would not be smart, in my humble opinion.

I think there's basically no chance of that happening anyway. If the structure has to be completely re-built, I would except something similar to that building that's under construction right now in Dundee. Maybe a little more ornate.



The only place in the country (and possibly the world) where phony architecture works is the Las Vegas strip. The building in Dundee is fine because it doesn't need to be great architecture to take up space there (though a modern building would still be better there too), the fact that the Old Market is so important is why the building that goes there needs to be great. I think an attempt to replicate the surrounding styles will look like novelty architecture, worthy of some tourist trap in the Dakotas, but not worthy of a modern American metropolis.

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Re: M's Pub Explosion and Fire

Postby Midwestern » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:23 pm

Professor Woland wrote:
Midwestern wrote:
Professor Woland wrote:
Midwestern wrote:I really, really hope it isn't an all glass and metal structure. How would a glass structure fit the theme of the Old Market? If we were talking the borders of the OM, maybe. But not right at the intersection of 11th & Howard.


You see that kind of eclecticism all the time in New York, Chicago and San Francisco. I don't mind the imitation old buildings on the outskirts of the Old Market, but it will stick out like a sore thumb at that corner. A good contemporary building will also stick out, but in a good way.


No. Not at the intersection of 11th & Howard. The Old Market is one of Nebraska's most recognizable tourist attractions. It's right in the name. OLD Market. That's the point of it. It takes you back to an older time. You would start ruining the branding and ambiance with a glass structure.

There is plenty of space elsewhere in downtown for eclectic mixes of structures. But to put a glass structure at the main focal point of the Old Market would not be smart, in my humble opinion.

I think there's basically no chance of that happening anyway. If the structure has to be completely re-built, I would except something similar to that building that's under construction right now in Dundee. Maybe a little more ornate.



The only place in the country (and possibly the world) where phony architecture works is the Las Vegas strip. The building in Dundee is fine because it doesn't need to be great architecture to take up space there (though a modern building would still be better there too), the fact that the Old Market is so important is why the building that goes there needs to be great. I think an attempt to replicate the surrounding styles will look like novelty architecture, worthy of some tourist trap in the Dakotas, but not worthy of a modern American metropolis.


I would hope that it is possible to build a good looking 4-5 story brick structure in this day and age, otherwise that is just sad that modern builders/architects can't find a way to do anything except throw up glass.

Some of the buildings in the Old Market are not even that "great" architecturally. A lot of them are actually fairly plain. The Old Market is much more about the brick buildings, the brick streets, the awnings, than it is about architecture.

If the people in Gold Coast wouldn't let someone build a modern house on 38th street, I can almost guarantee the Old Market association won't be allowing anything without brick right there.


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