Borders on 72

[Guest]

A few on this site might |expletive| themselves and vomit on the keyboard when I finish this post.

Bucky is buying the former Borders on 72nd and Dodge.  

[jessep28]

http://douglasne.mapping-online.com/Dou ... 0801460076

I Googled the PO Box and it is associated with Bucks Inc.

[bigredmed]

Would be a good location for a Bucky's.

[nativeomahan]

That should really "class" this iconic corner up.  Not.

[iamjacobm]

Can we just officially stick a fork in 72nd and Dodge?  I am really doubting any mall renovation of any kind happening.

[Brad]

Can we just officially stick a fork in 72nd and Dodge?  I am really doubting any mall renovation of any kind happening.

Yes, I am completely done holding out any kid of hope for that corner.

[Fromaha]

There is not another gas station nearby, so this looks like a good thing for Bucky's. Bad news for anyone who cares what goes in along the city's main artery. I'm clearly not an expert, but wouldn't this have to be approved by the city?

[BRoss]

There is not another gas station nearby, so this looks like a good thing for Bucky's. Bad news for anyone who cares what goes in along the city's main artery. I'm clearly not an expert, but wouldn't this have to be approved by the city?

I know it's not what any of us would like to see there, but I'm sure the city would rather have this than an empty store there.

[ShawJ]

There is not another gas station nearby, so this looks like a good thing for Bucky's. Bad news for anyone who cares what goes in along the city's main artery. I'm clearly not an expert, but wouldn't this have to be approved by the city?

Not sure what your definition of nearby is, but there's one on 72nd and Pacific. Also a Quick Trip just a little bit further south of Pacific on 72nd.

Although I guess on Dodge St there's not one nearby.

[Garrett]

There is not another gas station nearby, so this looks like a good thing for Bucky's. Bad news for anyone who cares what goes in along the city's main artery. I'm clearly not an expert, but wouldn't this have to be approved by the city?

Not sure what your definition of nearby is, but there's one on 72nd and Pacific. Also a Quick Trip just a little bit further south of Pacific on 72nd.

Although I guess on Dodge St there's not one nearby.

.... Nooooobs....

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=7911+wes ... CCAQ8gEwAA

[ShawJ]

There is not another gas station nearby, so this looks like a good thing for Bucky's. Bad news for anyone who cares what goes in along the city's main artery. I'm clearly not an expert, but wouldn't this have to be approved by the city?

Not sure what your definition of nearby is, but there's one on 72nd and Pacific. Also a Quick Trip just a little bit further south of Pacific on 72nd.

Although I guess on Dodge St there's not one nearby.

.... Nooooobs....

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=7911+wes ... CCAQ8gEwAA

D'oh!

But yeah, I've all but given up on a makeover for this general area if this holds true.

[bbinks]

There used to be an Amoco on the NE Corner years ago.   It was torn down after it closed.   Hopefully the new one will do better.

Kum & Go is also building a new store on 72nd & Decatur.    More competition for the new BP.

On the Kum & Go note, they also have bought the bank on 108th between Maple and Emmet.

[bigredmed]

When 72nd was the edge of town, it had the race track and some upscale destination restaurants.   Ross's, Kenny's, and Rose's.  There was a reason to stop there.  Not so much now.  Aksarben Village has succeeded in pulling UNO south.  Crossroads could never get the gang issue dealt with and gave no reason for people to drive there.  72nd and Dodge is just an intersection now.

[Guest]

Maybe Bucky's isn't going to build a gas station there.   Maybe they have plans to locate their company headquarters there.   Bucky's Tower?   Seriously, that whole intersection is so depressing now.   I still have hope that someday we will see something develop on the Crossroads Property.

[BRoss]

Maybe Bucky's isn't going to build a gas station there.   Maybe they have plans to locate their company headquarters there.   Bucky's Tower?   Seriously, that whole intersection is so depressing now.   I still have hope that someday we will see something develop on the Crossroads Property.

That would be cool, but I doubt that it would be anything significant. Their current headquarters at 90th and Blondo is extremely small.

[NovakOmaha]

When 72nd was the edge of town, it had the race track and some upscale destination restaurants.   Ross's, Kenny's, and Rose's.  There was a reason to stop there.  Not so much now.  Aksarben Village has succeeded in pulling UNO south.  Crossroads could never get the gang issue dealt with and gave no reason for people to drive there.  72nd and Dodge is just an intersection now.

72nd was called "The Strip" well after it was on the edge of town.  It was called that until the tornado of 75.  Tons of restaurants.  Rose Lodge was around 76th & Dodge by the way.  Now the intersection is an abomination.  There was a grand vision, more like a dream, a while ago but that was about it.  Perhaps someone with vision and a mountain of cash will come along but it would require a huge leap of faith and a very willing city council.

[jessep28]

When 72nd was the edge of town, it had the race track and some upscale destination restaurants.   Ross's, Kenny's, and Rose's.  There was a reason to stop there.  Not so much now.  Aksarben Village has succeeded in pulling UNO south.  Crossroads could never get the gang issue dealt with and gave no reason for people to drive there.  72nd and Dodge is just an intersection now.

I think it had more to do with the fact that traditional malls are dying. Southroads didn't have a gang problem and it eventually closed and was repurposed into a business park.

[bigredmed]

When 72nd was the edge of town, it had the race track and some upscale destination restaurants.   Ross's, Kenny's, and Rose's.  There was a reason to stop there.  Not so much now.  Aksarben Village has succeeded in pulling UNO south.  Crossroads could never get the gang issue dealt with and gave no reason for people to drive there.  72nd and Dodge is just an intersection now.

I think it had more to do with the fact that traditional malls are dying. Southroads didn't have a gang problem and it eventually closed and was repurposed into a business park.

Southroads died a year or two after it opened.   No traffic means no one from non Bellevue went there, no anchor stores.   Lots of active duty and retirees shop at the BX, so don't need a mall that doesnt have big anchors that sell stuff the BX didnt.   Till the Reagan admin, most of the USAF enlisted, noncoms, and sub-major junior officers had very low incomes.   They have since slid back down due toinflation, so the nearby population couldnt support it.   The southern expansion of residential areas happened through LaVista rather than Bellevue, and those people tend to stay west.  

It failed due to bad planning, before it had a chance to have gang infestations.

Crossroads failed for the same reason that Peony Park did.  They let the trash stink.   The golden rule killed both.  The people with the gold make the rules.  Once both places began to seem unsafe (doesnt matter if the actual safety issues are true or false), the people who had alternatives used them.

Much as that may seem somehow vaguely racist, it's a hate fact, a fact that people hate to accept.  People wont let their teenaged daughter go where she might get stray gunfire.  Teenaged girls buy a disproportional amount of |expletive|.  Stores that sell |expletive| need those girls.   When mom and dad say yes to the west O,alls and ban her from the Crossroads, the teenage girl dependent stores go looking for them.

[nativeomahan]

Goodness, gracious.  I don't know where to start with the corrections.

Southroads was built in the mid 1960s, just after Crossroads.  it had three anchors, not zero.  Sears, JC Penney and Brandeis (later Younkers).  Plus a large Woolworths.  It was always the poor stepchild to Crossroads, because it was smaller.  Of course so too was Bellevue.  Southroads was popular with South Omahans and Bellevue people, but really had no allure to anyone else in the Omaha area, as Crossroads (and later Westroads) were much more centrally located.  But Southroads most definitely did not die a year after it opened (that would have been about 1965).  It was going strong into the 1980s.  I had good friends, a military family, living in Bellevue in the 1970s and 80s and they shopped at Southroads all the time.  Southroads died a slow death in large part to the mall's owners, who never spent a dime to update it until the 1990s, and by then the train had already left the station, and it wasn't coming back.
Crossroads faltered in the 1970s not due to gangs, but due to owners that let it go to heck, while gleaming Westroads just 25 blocks west had all the best stores.  Eventually Crossroads spent a fortune in the early 1980s to greatly expand and remodel.  Everything except Sears was basically gutted and rebuilt.  Dillard's and a host of new stores opened in the mid 1980s.  It seemed to work for about 15 years, as the mall was packed once again.
Then Westroads sunk a boatload of $$$ into a complete remodel, and added the Von Maur wing.  Council Bluffs had Mall of the Bluffs for the Iowa trade.  Southwest Omaha had Oakview.  Crossroads got squeezed, as many of the popular retailers slowly closed their doors to consolidate at other locations, or just to close up completely.  And yes, when the city MAT bus transit center opened it was a double edge sword.  It brought other customers to the mall, but they didn't all come with money to spend.  Rather many they came just to hang out.  There were many bored teens hanging out there, and with that came drugs and fights.  There were a few crimes bad enough to make the evening news, but nothing even remotely close to the magnitude of the mass murders that occurred at Westroads.
It is sad what has happened to Crossroads.  It is located near some of Omaha's most expensive residential neighborhoods, and literally is at a major urban crossroads.  But as others have pointed out, enclosed malls just aren't in vogue any more.  Every other major city has gone through the same thing.  Does anyone remember the Blue Ridge Mall or Bannister malls in KC?  Shopping habits change.  Village Point and Shadow Lake, and the larger new malls in CB have been part of the trend for close to a decade.
I do hope that the area can be repurposed.  Target is going strong, so shoppers will happily shop there if given a reason to do so.  But I think that a mixed us PUD would be best, with housing, offices and some retail.  The potential is there.  What is needed is a crossroads of vision and financial investment.

[lisanstan]

Ive only been here 7 years, but my understanding was that the Kennedy Freeway killed Southroads by taking all the traffic off Ft crook Road.

[Omababe]

Ive only been here 7 years, but my understanding was that the Kennedy Freeway killed Southroads by taking all the traffic off Ft crook Road.

That is my understanding too.

[BRoss]

From my understanding, that was a major contributor.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

It is my understanding that your understandings are understandable.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Can we just officially stick a fork in 72nd and Dodge?

There are a lot of things we could stick a fork in in this country (including the country itself!).

But yeah, this would be epically pathetic, yet so normal and unsurprising, if it is true. Shows you the state of city "planning" in Omaha and the nation.

[riceweb]

Can we just officially stick a fork in 72nd and Dodge?

There are a lot of things we could stick a fork in in this country (including the country itself!).

But yeah, this would be epically pathetic, yet so normal and unsurprising, if it is true. Shows you the state of city "planning" in Omaha and the nation.

It's like the city gave up on this area after 80 Dodge and the Piccolo Apartments fell through

[NovakOmaha]

First, I disagree with your premise regarding this country.

Second, there are more opinions than cranky old Lewis Mumford.  I personally don't buy his premise.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

First, I disagree with your premise regarding this country.

Second, there are more opinions than cranky old Lewis Mumford.  I personally don't buy his premise.

Obviously. And you're not alone.

[NovakOmaha]

First, I disagree with your premise regarding this country.

Second, there are more opinions than cranky old Lewis Mumford.  I personally don't buy his premise.

Obviously. And you're not alone.

Let's do this, Streets.  Once and for all post your specific solution to America's ills, as you see them.  No more criticizing the current state of affairs and finding fault.  Just lay out your solution in a clear and concise post and make sure that we in the suburbs can understand it.  Some of us in the sea of unwashed masses want to hear your specific ideas.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Oh man. I'm sorry to keep using the term, but that's just so simplistic (no offense).

You think there are solutions? You think I like being a downer all the time? No. That's precisely what's so depressing about the current state of affairs. We've dug ourselves into this insane mess. Some people (a miniscule percent) understand this. They see it as plain as day. As they say, step one is admitting you have a problem. But it's a struggle getting any American to admit that; ah yes, we are a proud people.

Some people (again, very few) understand that there are major problems with the American way of life and the outcomes it has produced, and they are struggling valiantly to turn things around (these are what would be called "leaders," a rare breed in America). Then there are others who see the problems and acknowledge them, but who realize that we're blowing smoke up our |expletive| if we think we can undo what's been done in this country. I count myself among the latter.

You might as well send a dead drug addict to rehab and hope for the best.

[riceweb]

Oh man. I'm sorry to keep using the term, but that's just so simplistic (no offense).

You think there are solutions? You think I like being a downer all the time? No. That's precisely what's so depressing about the current state of affairs. We've dug ourselves into this insane mess. Some people (a miniscule percent) understand this. They see it as plain as day. As they say, step one is admitting you have a problem. But it's a struggle getting any American to admit that; ah yes, we are a proud people.

Some people (again, very few) understand that there are major problems with the American way of life and the outcomes it has produced, and they are struggling valiantly to turn things around (these are what would be called "leaders," a rare breed in America). Then there are others who see the problems and acknowledge them, but who realize that we're blowing smoke up our |expletive| if we think we can undo what's been done in this country. I count myself among the latter.

You might as well send a dead drug addict to rehab and hope for the best.

Streets, I don't want to get on the "hate on Streets" bandwagon, but this is yet another post where you say a lot without saying anything. Novak is simply calling for you to outline a specific plan, otherwise it sounds like you're trolling. You make "better" the enemy of the "good", without actually saying what your vision for "better" is.

[jessep28]

On second thought, is that lot too big for just a gas station? Tearing down a perfectly good two story building for a c-store doesn't make much sense I guess. Considering that Bucky's is now in outside markets (Chicago & St. Louis), maybe they're going to use the building for offices or something.

[Guest]

Streets, I don't want to get on the "hate on Streets" bandwagon, but this is yet another post where you say a lot without saying anything. Novak is simply calling for you to outline a specific plan, otherwise it sounds like you're trolling. You make "better" the enemy of the "good", without actually saying what your vision for "better" is.

No, it's fine. Go ahead and hop on the bandwagon.

Somehow it perpetually amazes me how merely stating an unpopular viewpoint about the way we develop land in Omaha (and the US) can be considered "trolling" by so many.

I don't have to offer solutions for my view points to be valid (besides, as I've mentioned, there really aren't any solutions... womp womp). There has been no end of people offering admonitions and solutions based on hard evidence and facts ever since... well, since ever in America. What I'm now convinced of is that Americans, collectively, simply don't have the wherewithal, the decency, or the self-awareness to, as they say, "check themselves before they wreck themselves."

We've been destroying ourselves (our cities, our lands, our very society) for decades. In Mumford's time (@Novak) there was still a sense that the tide could be turned. At this point, though, things are so staggeringly far beyond rescue... there's no lifeboat, there's no vaccine, there's no cool tricks or stunts that can pull us out. We have to let the beast die so that something else can emerge in its place.

Sadly, these are the times we live in. Unfortunately for me and others for whom "planning" is a calling, there is virtually nothing we can do to save this place. I invite you to just take a look around; you should find all the evidence you need.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Needless to say, that was me.

[BRoss]

Well Streets, is what you are calling for like what Planning Director Rick Cunningham said the other day about increasing density within the I-680 loop instead of continuing sprawling out west?

http://www.omaha.com/article/20121013/M ... 39931/1707

[Guest]

Maybe they don't have any plans to knock down the old Borders and build a new convenient store.   Maybe they just bought the property as an investment.   If Crossroads Village (or whatever it's called) ever gets developed, that lot, could be worth twice as much as it is now.   Like someone else stated, it's possible that Bucky's might just use the building for an office.   If that much space isn't needed for their office, maybe they will only occupy one portion of the building and lease out the rest of it.  I guess time will tell.

[Guest]

okay, so you don't like the way planning is done in omaha and America. that's your right, and I don't blame you for wanting to go to Europe or wherever if you don't like it here, and hope you find happiness here

But why should we all be miserable just because you don't happen to like the way things are done. Some people are perfectly happy living in the suburbs. No, they're not pretending to be happy, they don't "think they're happy", they're actually freakin' happy. What the heck is so wrong with that? I just don't see this complete collapse of society you seem so convinced is gonna happen

And hey, if it does, you can visit the charred remains of the country and say "I told you so." The rest of us are actually going to enjoy our lives

[NovakOmaha]

Streets & I have taken it to private messages.  I respect Streets' opinion and especially his/her? passion.  I also respect anyone's opinion.  I may disagree and in this case I do but for me, the discussion died a while ago.  

To those who care, I will continue to be the humble small businessperson, enjoying life with my family.  I came to the Chamber forum a long time ago hoping to share ideas and network.  Didn't really ever happen.  Eventually EOmaha started and it was fun around the time the idea for a new convention center/arena was proposed.  I'd still like to find a business forum for networking.  I enjoy visiting here to hear about new development in Omaha as I don't get back there as often.  My company does still have a presence there so I have an interest.  

Want to see what can happen when business people want to bring back an area?  Check out what Quicken Loans and others are doing in Downtown Detroit.  Thousands of jobs brought downtown, housing, young people moving back.  If you want to hear more, let me know.  If not, no problem.

[Guest]

One part of the problem with mid town redevelopment is the repetitive and seemingly reflexic approach of trying to make one area the hippest coolest place in town in hopes of "drawing people to that part of town", and spending bazillions of dollars in the process.  And then having to watch the last coolest, hippest place in town slide.   We are going to drop large dollars on a tiny  3 block long stretch of Dundee so that urban hipsters can condescend to the other people who go there (and do even more condescension to the people who don't.)   MEANWHILE, the area from 49th to Saddlecreek and from Cass to Dodge gets turned into subsidized housing interspersed with apartment parking heck.   Now granted, the cool kids who live over by Dundee Elementary will get to be cooler still, and they get a bunch of other people's money for their three hipper than thou  blocks, but all the people who live east of them (and even worse, the people who live east and north of Saddlecreek) will get nothing, and in fact have lived in the same crappy neighborhoods since the 1960's.  

There needs to be a sense of "organicity" to our urban plans.  A sense that a building exists to serve a discrete, practical purpose for the people in that neighborhood, whether 1 person from some other part of the city goes there or not.  A gas station  that was busy, and served the neighborhood would be a better deal than some joint that sold fairly traded, organic, "hand ground by barristas wearing natural fabrics, using only left-handed grinders while chanting Sanskrit poetry" coffee that barely 1% of the population in that area could afford.  

Even if that corner turns into a giant multistory Super Mega Mega Bucky's, if it serves the people who live there, then great.   Even if the "New Urbanists" hate it.  

Seriously, if we want a compact city, we need to think about what causes people to willingly live 3x farther from work, pay 50% more for their housing, and in general complicate their lives.  People don't do things that hurt themselves because they are stupid.  They are seldom crazy.  So there must be a set of compelling reasons that cause them to drive past perfectly nice areas of town and not even consider looking there.  

For a lot of people, its crappy OPS schools.  For others, its crime.   For others, its the absence of middle and upper middle income housing (ever shopped in Memorial Park or Christ the King for a house in the $150,000 range?)  For still others, its the lack of coherent neighborhood designs (at one end of the street are 3 story brick tudors, and at the other end of the street, there is a 2 bedroom 1000 sq foot micro house, that has been rented out to 6 grad students with 4 live in girlfriends, and 12 cars in more or less working order).   What ever it is, and especially important, even if its  a "hate fact" (the kind of fact that you have to admit to, but hate doing so), we need to start dealing with these issues that compel sane, intelligent, educated, productive people to willingly live 25 miles from work and spend $250K for a starter mansion they hardly ever see, rather than moving into the city and being able to take advantage of the better mass transit, and generally lower cost of housing.

We fix these problems, and 72 street will fix itself.

[bigredmed]

One part of the problem with mid town redevelopment is the repetitive and seemingly reflexic approach of trying to make one area the hippest coolest place in town in hopes of "drawing people to that part of town", and spending bazillions of dollars in the process.  And then having to watch the last coolest, hippest place in town slide.   We are going to drop large dollars on a tiny  3 block long stretch of Dundee so that urban hipsters can condescend to the other people who go there (and do even more condescension to the people who don't.)   MEANWHILE, the area from 49th to Saddlecreek and from Cass to Dodge gets turned into subsidized housing interspersed with apartment parking heck.   Now granted, the cool kids who live over by Dundee Elementary will get to be cooler still, and they get a bunch of other people's money for their three hipper than thou  blocks, but all the people who live east of them (and even worse, the people who live east and north of Saddlecreek) will get nothing, and in fact have lived in the same crappy neighborhoods since the 1960's.  

There needs to be a sense of "organicity" to our urban plans.  A sense that a building exists to serve a discrete, practical purpose for the people in that neighborhood, whether 1 person from some other part of the city goes there or not.  A gas station  that was busy, and served the neighborhood would be a better deal than some joint that sold fairly traded, organic, "hand ground by barristas wearing natural fabrics, using only left-handed grinders while chanting Sanskrit poetry" coffee that barely 1% of the population in that area could afford.  

Even if that corner turns into a giant multistory Super Mega Mega Bucky's, if it serves the people who live there, then great.   Even if the "New Urbanists" hate it.  

Seriously, if we want a compact city, we need to think about what causes people to willingly live 3x farther from work, pay 50% more for their housing, and in general complicate their lives.  People don't do things that hurt themselves because they are stupid.  They are seldom crazy.  So there must be a set of compelling reasons that cause them to drive past perfectly nice areas of town and not even consider looking there.  

For a lot of people, its crappy OPS schools.  For others, its crime.   For others, its the absence of middle and upper middle income housing (ever shopped in Memorial Park or Christ the King for a house in the $150,000 range?)  For still others, its the lack of coherent neighborhood designs (at one end of the street are 3 story brick tudors, and at the other end of the street, there is a 2 bedroom 1000 sq foot micro house, that has been rented out to 6 grad students with 4 live in girlfriends, and 12 cars in more or less working order).   What ever it is, and especially important, even if its  a "hate fact" (the kind of fact that you have to admit to, but hate doing so), we need to start dealing with these issues that compel sane, intelligent, educated, productive people to willingly live 25 miles from work and spend $250K for a starter mansion they hardly ever see, rather than moving into the city and being able to take advantage of the better mass transit, and generally lower cost of housing.

We fix these problems, and 72 street will fix itself.

This is mine.

[jessep28]

If you think Crossroads had a crime problem which led to its decline, check out the Dixie Square Mall in Harvey, IL. It's the mall that was used to film the chase scene in Blues Brothers.

http://seeingdixie.wordpress.com/dixies-past/

Here are a couple videos of Dixie Square.

[youtube][/youtube]


[youtube][/youtube]