Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

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Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby guy4omaha » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:02 pm

Perhaps this is already general knowledge but it is news to me.

I was at the Stinson Park concert Saturday night and bumped into a friend who is a long-time employee at Mutual of Omaha. Somehow Mutual of Omaha's headquarters came up and my friend claimed that upper management openly expresses that they would really like to get out of their headquarters building. Reasons cited are the maintenance and heating/cooling costs of a building this old.

He went on to explain that MOO would like to build a new headquarters in the area just east of MTC in 5 to 15 years. He said the main obstacle in the way of these plans is that they can't convince the multiple owners of the remaining Twin Tower to sell to them.

I don't know how well my friend is in the know over there but this is what he was claiming.

Again maybe this is well known. But I have been rather dismayed at all the leveling of buildings in that area for what I thought was for the purpose of speculative, pie-in-the-sky hopes for future development, Like don't we have enough vacant lots.

If this has any validity, wouldn't a new MOO headquarters in the midtown or downtown area be cool even if it is still 5 to 15 years down the road. Especially if it was a multi-use high rise of some scale.
My son got a 27 on his ACT. No this score is not as high as what Jeff's son achieved. But one has to remember the paternal gene-pool my son has to overcome. On a PGPAB [Paternal Gene-Pool Adjusted Basis], my son's score is a 37 and Jeff's son's PGPAB ACT score is 19.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Brad » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:15 pm

Interesting intel Guy.

I always think of their current HQ as kind of Iconic. Anyone else think of it that way?
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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Omaha Cowboy » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:28 pm

Brad wrote:Interesting intel Guy.

I always think of their current HQ as kind of Iconic. Anyone else think of it that way?


I echo this Guy. Thanks for the Intel. If they were to move, within a 5 year window, the ConAgra campus location would be ideal.. The city would love for them to build on Lot B I'd suspect..

Ain't rumors grand? :;): ...

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby guy4omaha » Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:20 pm

I have always thought the building was iconic too.

If this story has any legs, they definitely want to go midtown just east of Turner Blvd if they can find a way. It makes me view the clearing of these blocks from a different perspective.

Since hearing this I have been thinking about what this could potentially mean to the momentum of development between 20th and I-480. And wouldn't a high rise overlooking I-480 from the west provide a new wrinkle. And then what happen to the area west of MTC? Rehab/repurpose of the current headquarters? infill on those western parking lots? An MTC west?

Anyway, a rumor is what it is for the foreseeable future.
My son got a 27 on his ACT. No this score is not as high as what Jeff's son achieved. But one has to remember the paternal gene-pool my son has to overcome. On a PGPAB [Paternal Gene-Pool Adjusted Basis], my son's score is a 37 and Jeff's son's PGPAB ACT score is 19.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Brad » Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:39 pm

guy4omaha wrote:And then what happen to the area west of MTC? Rehab/repurpose of the current headquarters? infill on those western parking lots? An MTC west?


Seems tough since MTC has no direct connectivity to the west. You are either on Dodge or Farnam, or you need to take an elevator/stair tower to get out to the street on the west side.
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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:44 pm

Brad wrote:Interesting intel Guy.

I always think of their current HQ as kind of Iconic. Anyone else think of it that way?



Oh yeah. I would say iconic and then some. That pic you took of Mutual from the whirlybird a couple of weeks ago was a heck of pic from a heck of an angle of a heck of a campus. That was my favorite pic of the whole bunch.

If I was betting on it I would say this rumor had no teeth what so ever. I like the rumor though! Its always a good time for a good rumor so keep em coming.















o

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:07 pm

GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:Oh yeah. I would say iconic and then some. That pic you took of Mutual from the whirlybird a couple of weeks ago was a heck of pic from a heck of an angle of a heck of a campus. That was my favorite pic of the whole bunch.If I was betting on it I would say this rumor had no teeth what so ever. I like the rumor though! Its always a good time for a good rumor so keep em coming.


Heck of a post Grandpa. I would say that I think it is possible as the building is sort of a hacked up mess - although I do very much like the exterior view of it.

I just cannot see them going DT if they move. I think they might move to that east of Turner Park location and then redevelopment the current HQ site as well as the parking lots fronting dodge from 34th to 36th.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby iamjacobm » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:03 pm

There is no way they leave their MTC campus for DT, way too much money invested there.

If they do want new digs, the area between Turner and 480 would be the only logical choice.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Garrett » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:01 pm

Very interesting indeed. I could then see them remodeling their old HQ into apartments and maybe adding on some retail space as well. Definitely something to think about, along with the long rumored Kiewit move.
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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Stargazer » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:35 pm

I have a hard time believing, with the investment they have in MTC, that they're going to abandon the area for downtown/elsewhere.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:03 am

Me 3 for them not moving. They did all they have with MTC to make it worth working there, they will not leave it now. That venture was solely due to its proximity, not a separate venture that just happened to be next door.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby guy4omaha » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:27 pm

words mean things I guess.

Folks my friend's words were they want to move to the area just east of MTC that is being cleared. The reference to downtown was just me thinking aloud, assuming this rumor is true to begin with, that if they ultimately couldn't secure their preferred site, what would they consider then? Sorry for the confusion if it started with me. The rumor as stated to me was they clearly want to remain the midtown area.
My son got a 27 on his ACT. No this score is not as high as what Jeff's son achieved. But one has to remember the paternal gene-pool my son has to overcome. On a PGPAB [Paternal Gene-Pool Adjusted Basis], my son's score is a 37 and Jeff's son's PGPAB ACT score is 19.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Guest10 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:38 pm

To throw another rumor in that started a couple of years ago... There was discussion of renting temporary office space and moving staff, tearing down the old headquarters, and building a new headquarters at the current location. Seemed unlikely due to cost and the inconvenience of moving twice so didn't think much of it. But, nonetheless, the rumor has been going around and this new rumor could show that a headquarters move is still a possibility.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Greg S » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:16 pm

With everything Mutual has done in that area, I think they'd be the last company in Omaha to move from their neighborhood.

With that being said, I really doubt they'd permanently leave their current HQ. I could see them doing a major renovation to their current building.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby iamjacobm » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:34 pm

Just for curiosity's sake. Their current buildings contain over 1.2 million SF of space. Me ever being the optimist is hoping their bank and mortgage operations continue to grow as well.

They could potentially need a project that eclipses Union Pacific's 1.3 million SF building. Kinda cool to think of the possibilities.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby NEDodger » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:28 am

What I would love to see happen:
Kiewit builds a Woodman Tower-size building downtown.
The old Kiewit building turns into apartments.
Mutual builds a Woodman Tower-size building directly east of the Walgreen's on Dodge.
Mutual builds another massive parking garage in the area bordered by 30th, 29th, Farnam, and Douglas.
Mutual builds another set of condos/apartments on the site of the old Mutual HQ building/adjacent parking lots bordering Dodge Street.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby HR Paperstacks » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:00 am

I don't think they are going anywhere. I've been watching them rehab the outside of the building along Dodge and they probably wouldn't bother if they had any kind of plans to move.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Greg S » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:37 pm

iamjacobm wrote:Just for curiosity's sake. Their current buildings contain over 1.2 million SF of space. Me ever being the optimist is hoping their bank and mortgage operations continue to grow as well.

They could potentially need a project that eclipses Union Pacific's 1.3 million SF building. Kinda cool to think of the possibilities.



Is there space available in their 2nd main building? I know National Indemnity used to lease a bunch of it and in the last year moved downtown into the World Herald building.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby PotatoeEatsFish » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:12 pm

I would be fine if they wanted to build a new headquarters as long as they don't tear down their old one. I don't think they would but noting is certain in Omaha.

Side note: Imagine how big the building could be. :P
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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby PotatoeEatsFish » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:14 pm

NEDodger wrote:What I would love to see happen:
Kiewit builds a Woodman Tower-size building downtown.
The old Kiewit building turns into apartments.
Mutual builds a Woodman Tower-size building directly east of the Walgreen's on Dodge.
Mutual builds another massive parking garage in the area bordered by 30th, 29th, Farnam, and Douglas.
Mutual builds another set of condos/apartments on the site of the old Mutual HQ building/adjacent parking lots bordering Dodge Street.

:o
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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Athomsfere » Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:40 am

I'll say:

I'm all for Mutual growing, and needing bigger space.

I'm all for them building a new, bigger more efficient building.

But please whatever happens, someone repurpose the current building.

Someone who loves Omaha as much as Mutual apparently does.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby gkudrna » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:30 pm

I always thought it would make a really cool (but rather large) hotel. put the pool under the dome.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby NEDodger » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:37 am

Athomsfere wrote:I'll say:

I'm all for Mutual growing, and needing bigger space.

I'm all for them building a new, bigger more efficient building.

But please whatever happens, someone repurpose the current building.

Someone who loves Omaha as much as Mutual apparently does.


I guess for me, if a new headquarters is predicated on the fact that the current building is too costly to maintain I don't see a situation where it would be saved? Per the rumor, the whole reason we're discussing this is because a Fortune 500 company finds it too expensive to use.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby daveoma » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:32 pm

gkudrna wrote:I always thought it would make a really cool (but rather large) hotel. put the pool under the dome.

Great idea! I hope it happens!

It's my understanding that the building still standing at the site of the train twin towers is actually an old Sears warehouse under the facade. The facade is very dated, but it would be a shame if Mutual of Omaha decided to destroy it at some point.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby debradomayer » Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:15 pm

I remember shopping at that Sears when I was a little girl. Many, many, many years ago!

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Athomsfere » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:20 am

NEDodger wrote:
Athomsfere wrote:I'll say:

I'm all for Mutual growing, and needing bigger space.

I'm all for them building a new, bigger more efficient building.

But please whatever happens, someone repurpose the current building.

Someone who loves Omaha as much as Mutual apparently does.


I guess for me, if a new headquarters is predicated on the fact that the current building is too costly to maintain I don't see a situation where it would be saved? Per the rumor, the whole reason we're discussing this is because a Fortune 500 company finds it too expensive to use.


True, but I think a lot of times with older buildings being in a significant, older landmark building is a selling point. Especially for multiple floor leases (and location!)

I mean there are reasons other than "because NYC" buildings like the Chrysler building remain full.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby bigredmed » Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:52 am

Athomsfere wrote:
NEDodger wrote:
Athomsfere wrote:I'll say:

I'm all for Mutual growing, and needing bigger space.

I'm all for them building a new, bigger more efficient building.

But please whatever happens, someone repurpose the current building.

Someone who loves Omaha as much as Mutual apparently does.


I guess for me, if a new headquarters is predicated on the fact that the current building is too costly to maintain I don't see a situation where it would be saved? Per the rumor, the whole reason we're discussing this is because a Fortune 500 company finds it too expensive to use.


True, but I think a lot of times with older buildings being in a significant, older landmark building is a selling point. Especially for multiple floor leases (and location!)

I mean there are reasons other than "because NYC" buildings like the Chrysler building remain full.


It's a building that is no longer organic to their current or future business practices. When built, they hired 1000's of bookkeepers to manually process funds in and out as well as do underwriting. Then they computerized and cut their workforce by a lot. Suddenly many floors were not needed. The workforce is also declining because their role in Medicare claims processing is decreasing as value based systems tend to process fewer claims and keep a lot internal. Mutual of Omaha will keep busy, but in a much smaller footprint. Too small to keep that building full.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:00 pm

bigredmed wrote:
Athomsfere wrote:
NEDodger wrote:
Athomsfere wrote:I'll say:

I'm all for Mutual growing, and needing bigger space.

I'm all for them building a new, bigger more efficient building.

But please whatever happens, someone repurpose the current building.

Someone who loves Omaha as much as Mutual apparently does.


I guess for me, if a new headquarters is predicated on the fact that the current building is too costly to maintain I don't see a situation where it would be saved? Per the rumor, the whole reason we're discussing this is because a Fortune 500 company finds it too expensive to use.


True, but I think a lot of times with older buildings being in a significant, older landmark building is a selling point. Especially for multiple floor leases (and location!)

I mean there are reasons other than "because NYC" buildings like the Chrysler building remain full.


It's a building that is no longer organic to their current or future business practices. When built, they hired 1000's of bookkeepers to manually process funds in and out as well as do underwriting. Then they computerized and cut their workforce by a lot. Suddenly many floors were not needed. The workforce is also declining because their role in Medicare claims processing is decreasing as value based systems tend to process fewer claims and keep a lot internal. Mutual of Omaha will keep busy, but in a much smaller footprint. Too small to keep that building full.


This is the first post in this thread that bears evidence of someone who knows what they are talking about! I will add that at one time Mutual Of Omaha was a huge insurer of Group and Individual Health Insurance and they got tired of not being able to make any profit on it so they got out of the Health Insurance business. The only health insurance Mutual markets these days is Cancer and indemnity plans where they can guarantee they will make a profit. Much as people have falsely been lead to believe that Obama Care was some kind of gift to the insurance companies its just not the case. Mutual has wisely stayed out of Obama Care as has 90% of the insurance companies out there. Obama Care is crashing and burning and Trump is coming in claiming he is going to revamp it. Right now Mutual is in a major holding pattern waiting to see how it all plays out.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Omaha Cowboy » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:19 pm

MofO also sold whole Life Insurance.. But they dumped off what was left of that portfolio nearly 10 years ago...

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Athomsfere » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:36 am

GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:Much as people have falsely been lead to believe that Obama Care was some kind of gift to the insurance companies its just not the case. Mutual has wisely stayed out of Obama Care as has 90% of the insurance companies out there. Obama Care is crashing and burning and Trump is coming in claiming he is going to revamp it. Right now Mutual is in a major holding pattern waiting to see how it all plays out.


I think the only people that ever thought the ACA was meant to help the insurance companies are the same people that believe Trump could ever fix anything.

Although not relevant to Omaha, ACA was meant to help citizens... before the bill was neutered and compromised to death at least.

bigredmed wrote:It's a building that is no longer organic to their current or future business practices. When built, they hired 1000's of bookkeepers to manually process funds in and out as well as do underwriting. Then they computerized and cut their workforce by a lot. Suddenly many floors were not needed. The workforce is also declining because their role in Medicare claims processing is decreasing as value based systems tend to process fewer claims and keep a lot internal. Mutual of Omaha will keep busy, but in a much smaller footprint. Too small to keep that building full.


Now those are some great points I hadn't considered. Is Mutual of Omaha currently leasing any of that space out? What's the occupancy and workforce growth look like? Still contracting?

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:36 am

Athomsfere wrote:
GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:Much as people have falsely been lead to believe that Obama Care was some kind of gift to the insurance companies its just not the case. Mutual has wisely stayed out of Obama Care as has 90% of the insurance companies out there. Obama Care is crashing and burning and Trump is coming in claiming he is going to revamp it. Right now Mutual is in a major holding pattern waiting to see how it all plays out.


I think the only people that ever thought the ACA was meant to help the insurance companies are the same people that believe Trump could ever fix anything.

Although not relevant to Omaha, ACA was meant to help citizens... before the bill was neutered and compromised to death at least.

bigredmed wrote:It's a building that is no longer organic to their current or future business practices. When built, they hired 1000's of bookkeepers to manually process funds in and out as well as do underwriting. Then they computerized and cut their workforce by a lot. Suddenly many floors were not needed. The workforce is also declining because their role in Medicare claims processing is decreasing as value based systems tend to process fewer claims and keep a lot internal. Mutual of Omaha will keep busy, but in a much smaller footprint. Too small to keep that building full.


Now those are some great points I hadn't considered. Is Mutual of Omaha currently leasing any of that space out? What's the occupancy and workforce growth look like? Still contracting?


When Trump gets in they will basically throw out Obama Care and it will go back to the way it was before. Once the rule forcing Insurance companies to accept anyone with bad health is gone it will be safe for the insurance companies to market health insurance again. The real problem can never be fixed unless we take on the greedy doctors and hospitals which nobody including Trump or Obama has ever had the guts to mention.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby bigredmed » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:03 am

MOO has leased a lot of floors out. Several to Nebraska Medicine for their business office functions.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:41 pm

GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:When Trump gets in they will basically throw out Obama Care and it will go back to the way it was before. Once the rule forcing Insurance companies to accept anyone with bad health is gone it will be safe for the insurance companies to market health insurance again. The real problem can never be fixed unless we take on the greedy doctors and hospitals which nobody including Trump or Obama has ever had the guts to mention.


Just when I thought I had Grandpa figured out, I now wonder if he is really Bernie Sanders :shock:

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:02 pm

Guest wrote:
GRANDPASMUCKER wrote:When Trump gets in they will basically throw out Obama Care and it will go back to the way it was before. Once the rule forcing Insurance companies to accept anyone with bad health is gone it will be safe for the insurance companies to market health insurance again. The real problem can never be fixed unless we take on the greedy doctors and hospitals which nobody including Trump or Obama has ever had the guts to mention.


Just when I thought I had Grandpa figured out, I now wonder if he is really Bernie Sanders :shock:


I don't think Bernie would think too highly of many of the things I would like to see happen. I am for entitlement reform and Bernie is for giving the moochers more handouts. I would trade my beloved Trump Wall for true entitlement reform. I sure do not remember ever hearing Bernie take on the Doctors and Hospitals for being greedy. If Bernie had ever took on the Doctors and Hospitals for their never ending greed I would of noticed. No politician would dare or even think about taking on the Drs and Hospitals. The Doctors and Hospitals are so rich and connected and powerful factored in with the love affair that Americans have with Drs in this country and the Drs and Hospitals are almost untouchable. :yes:

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby Athomsfere » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:46 pm

bigredmed wrote:MOO has leased a lot of floors out. Several to Nebraska Medicine for their business office functions.


So it seems they shouldn't be "losing" money. Unless renting out the entire building and getting a spiffy new one is more profitable in the long run :lol:

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby GetUrban » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:09 am

Although they're no longer into health insurance, they're now into banking and retirement products . Anyone know how many of their current 5000 staff are dedicated to banking and other non-insurance services? Also, what was their peak employment number, and when was that?
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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:05 pm

GetUrban wrote:Although they're no longer into health insurance, they're now into banking and retirement products . Anyone know how many of their current 5000 staff are dedicated to banking and other non-insurance services? Also, what was their peak employment number, and when was that?


Medicare Supplement Plans are the major insurance product they sell. Its tough to make money selling medicare supplements because its almost guaranteed that the client is going to use it and the client does not have to use it too many times to end up costing Mutual of Omaha more then the 1500 to $2000 yearly premiums. I think some of the info you ask for is somewhat proprietary and difficult to find.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby magis » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:31 am

Just catching up on this wonderful blog! I am an owner at the Twin Towers Condos. I have heard that some folks have conversed with the real estate crew at MOO--they have no desire to buy the Twin Towers. In any case, as the original poster hinted, you won't be able to get the super majority required by the by-laws to agree to an offer to purchase all the condos from the current 100+ owners. Thats what I like about condos---I don't care how big the interested company is, they cannot simply walk up and buy the building. I believe there was a time that MOO may have had a better chance of doing so. But it was a catch 22--at the time before the redevelopment they would not have really had the interest in trying to acquire the whole building for the owners--and maybe the owners would not have sold. After all, many of the original purchasers of the condos in the 1980's bought them outright for as low as $25,000. That gives folks good security as they age. And now in the last 5 years the HOA (i.e. the owners of all the condos)for Twin Towers have upgraded the chiller, replaced the roof, remodeled the common areas extensively and purchased two new elevators. This was an expensive capital investment that the owners themselves paid for. They see good value in the building and have hope of good appreciation in the coming years.

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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby choke2 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:18 am

magis wrote:Just catching up on this wonderful blog! I am an owner at the Twin Towers Condos. I have heard that some folks have conversed with the real estate crew at MOO--they have no desire to buy the Twin Towers. In any case, as the original poster hinted, you won't be able to get the super majority required by the by-laws to agree to an offer to purchase all the condos from the current 100+ owners. Thats what I like about condos---I don't care how big the interested company is, they cannot simply walk up and buy the building. I believe there was a time that MOO may have had a better chance of doing so. But it was a catch 22--at the time before the redevelopment they would not have really had the interest in trying to acquire the whole building for the owners--and maybe the owners would not have sold. After all, many of the original purchasers of the condos in the 1980's bought them outright for as low as $25,000. That gives folks good security as they age. And now in the last 5 years the HOA (i.e. the owners of all the condos)for Twin Towers have upgraded the chiller, replaced the roof, remodeled the common areas extensively and purchased two new elevators. This was an expensive capital investment that the owners themselves paid for. They see good value in the building and have hope of good appreciation in the coming years.


Let's face it, that area had some serious issues and if it wasn't for MOO, the Twin Towers wouldn't be seeing any appreciation in the coming years. You'd still looking out your windows at those ugly concrete tubes and a bunch of homeless in Turner Park. The only thing the area had going for it was the KFC buffet.

GRANDPASMUCKER
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Re: Mutual of Omaha Plans for the Future?

Postby GRANDPASMUCKER » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:05 am

I visited a condo owner in the Twin Towers in about 2000 on business. The owner gave me a little tour and the place was run down big time. I mean it looks alot better from the street then it does inside. The guy I visited on about the 10th floor had this patio outside some sliding glass doors that was a joke. The patio was made of patio pavers that had just been laid on the rubber roof. The guy was having problems with water leaking into his condo and everything else.


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