New Downtown Masterplan

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:34 pm

Swift wrote:A good thing about Lincoln's layout is that most of the bars college kids go to are within walking distance from the school, thus bringing down the amount of drunk driving.

I disagree. Most college kids who go down to the bars are not living in dorms. I used to work at Sandy's for a couple years as the karaoke host and not once did I hear "baby, lets go hit the afterparty at 9th floor Cather". ;) Seriously though, I think most college-age bar patrons in DTL have off-campus housing. Granted much of that off-campus housing is still relatively close to DTL, its not walking distance like UNL is.

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:40 pm

I didn't mean that they lived in dorms, only that they tend to live close to school.

projectman · Post by **projectman** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:22 pm

Again, Lincoln is more of a college town with the campus right downtown and...DT Lincoln is more centralized where DTO has the river as a boundry and the city is expanding in one direction. The drive to get to DTO is getting longer and longer which discourages some people. I think the apples to oranges applies here. I also agree that Omaha downtown is larger which also makes a difference. Either way I am happy for Lincoln. It's a vision.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:29 pm

Thank you Aaron and Bob. That's what I've been saying. but just because I say it it's anti-Lincoln.

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:47 pm

Haha, yeah, though I'm not the most pro-Lincoln person you'll ever meet. Though recently I have gained a stronger sense of objectivity.

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:42 pm

Good points guys. And Lincoln still has more street activity. We all know the campus is a huge part of that but SO WHAT! Omaha needs to make pedestrain-friendly enhancements to downtown (remember the post a few weeks ago about downtown Omaha lacking people? -many realize this). I am glad to see that the Leahy Mall improvements, riverfront trail/development, LC Landing, North Downtown, etc. are going to change that. But, it must change because it is currently severely lacking in street activity (especially 16th Street). It is not just because of concentration. The 16th Street mall is ususally desolate, the GL Mall has mostly homeless and the riverfront is empty away from Rick's. I know we all want the same thing, but let's realize what is needed so it can be addressed. I think the civic leaders have come to the realization and are attempting to implement new ways to connect office, retail and residential uses to increase pedestrian activity.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:59 am

DT Omaha's street level activity is currently MUCH better than you would have seen at the beginning of this decade and is getting much better..

It's no secret that 16th street has been a desolate area for years now..But with the addition of the Brandies bldg condos etc..This will soon change..The point is Omaha IS currently making pedestrian-friendly enhancements to downtown ..

It would also be inaccurate to broad-brush the Gene Leahy Mall as 'mostly homeless'..Flat out, this is NOT the case..Even on a weekday spring/summer evening..

Streets of Omaha posted:

'Downtown Omaha is more active (and more sober I might add ) even though it occupis a much larger area than downtown Lincoln, and as others have pointed out it's only going to keep improving exponentially as more and more amazing projects that Lincoln can only dream about are announced and completed.'..

The point I've made here before and I completely agree..

Again from the common sense dept:

No one is disputing Lincoln having a lively DT 'people' enviornment..Given their college town enviornment and campus right off downtown..They SHOULD..

Good for Lincoln..BUT..

Lets not overstate that DT Omaha is severely lacking in street level activity because that would NOT be an accuate assesment of DT Omaha in 2005..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:10 am

All these Lincoln threads seem to be met with Omahans reaffirming their confidence that whatever it is that Lincoln is doing... Omaha is doing it better.

Can't we just be happy for Lincoln and leave it at that?

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:51 am

From my standpoint, I'm happy for Lincoln and have reaffirmed in this thread my hopes that this masterplan can at least in part (if not all) be realized for Lincoln in the near future..

Yet I have been compelled to address what I believe to be an overstatement that Omaha is severely devoid of DT street level activity..

That said, the dialog lately in this thread is accomplishing nothing..Just 'round and 'round re-statements of the same opinion..

Onward..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:49 pm

jhuston wrote:...whatever it is that Lincoln is doing... Omaha is doing it better.

Well, yes, that's rule number one.

jhuston wrote:Can't we just be happy for Lincoln and leave it at that?

Or course, as long as we understand and recognize rule number one.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:15 am

^

I have picture that I'm must have left on my Nebraska City computer but it shows the Mall PACKED full of people There were two seperate weddings going on, the slides were even more full than usual, all the freaky people were hanging out under the arch and the tons of other people just passing through. And this was a weekday.

Finn no offense but you're wrong about mall being all homeless people. There is just that one small section near the library and most people aren't the wary of them. Also you live in DC so you don't get to see Omaha everyday like we do.

I even asked my mom who is impartial to this sort of thing about which is mroe active. We used to live two blocks away from DTL when I was very young so she knows what she's talking about and couldn't believe that someone would think DTL was more active than DTO.

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:22 am

No offense taken. And Lincoln still ahs more street activity.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:31 am

Well what do you have to back it up with. Just because it has 20,000 college kids nearby please. Omaha has over 400,000 people in just the city that can go DT. I highly doubt all 20,000 UNL kids head down to DTL everyday of the week to get tossed. We can fit 17,000 people in one building DT and somehow DTL still has more people? Show me one legitimate way that DTL is more active than DTO. You can't because it isn't. They may have all of their entertainment things closer together than Omaha but they in no way have more people living, working, or visiting DT than Omaha.

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:46 am

Oh yes I can! But, you would not agree and go on and on about Omaha's downtown (which has been lame for many years - finally starting to change). I can't keep up with this volley.

GoWest · Post by **GoWest** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:14 am

Finn wrote:No offense taken. And Lincoln still ahs more street activity.

I agree with Finn. Downtown Lincoln has always appeared more active to me. I don't even think it's even close. There are so many more shops and things to do in DTL. I'm sure it wasn't always that way. Just look at some pictures of DTO in the 50's. You couldn't tell the difference from DTO and NYC. I don't think it's a bad idea to admit Omaha's faults. It will only help us grow stronger. I don't care if it's because of there is a college campus downtown or whatever. The fact is, that it is what it is. Even though I think DTL has more street activity, DTO has much more of a big city feel. That will only increase with more street level activity. Omaha is going through a period of growth and development like never before. After watching nothing but shops closing up in DTO for the longest time, I almost cant believe what I'm seeing when it comes to downtown development. Before long, I'm sure DTO will far exceed what DTL has in street activity.

Linkin5 · Post by **Linkin5** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:35 am

Wow DTO and others, you've really ruined a positive Lincoln thread. If this is what you guys are going to do everytime I post something about Lincoln then I'm done with this website. You people really need to get rid of your Omaha vs. the world attitude, its getting old.

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:15 am

It does get tiresome, but don't stop posting. Thre are some of us who truly appreciate what is going on in Lincoln and want to be apprised of new plans, etc.

jsheets · Post by **jsheets** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:47 am

I think GoWest's last post put it best. Lincoln has a more active downtown, but Omaha has a more urban appeal and potential.

I was in downtown Lincoln last night, and I counted more than one bicycle (something you never see in DTOmaha). I mentioned this to my wife, and she made a great point. Downtown is more of a neighborhood in Lincoln than it is in Omaha, up till now. Omaha is changing this, and making it much more urban at the same time. Lincoln's downtown neighborhood has a lot of homes on the West and South sides. A lot of these are very large homes that have been converted to multi-family apartments.

One reason it feels like more of a neighborhood in Lincoln is because the business district downtown is MUCH smaller than in Omaha. Thus the homes and apartments on the outskirts are much closer to most of downtown than is possible in Omaha, which also leads to more bike traffic than Omaha would have. It's just not that close from Mutual / Midtown / Dundee to ride a bike all the time, which is why we need that streetcar system! On the other hand, I still feel that South of the tracks in DTO will become a hip neighborhood someday, because of it's proximity and urban feel. Maybe even a "tear-down" neighborhood.

jsheets · Post by **jsheets** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:51 am

Also, most of the off-campus housing area in Lincoln is on the North and East sides of Campus. They are great to walking/biking to campus, but it's not like the students normally walk straight through downtown or the haymarket to get to class. It is a bit out of the way to do this.

So while the campus does add to the population in the area, and greatly enhances the nightlife potential for the college age, I don't think it adds to the daytime street activity in downtown as much as DTO Luv keeps saying.

jsheets · Post by **jsheets** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:55 am

Lastly, and I'm off my soap box, does everyone forget that Creighton is as relatively close to DTO as UNL is to DTL? I would be the distance from Abel to the Haymarket is possibly longer than the distance from a Creighton dorm to the Old Market. Different size campuses, by a long shot, I know, but still the Omaha zealots here have failed to mention it.

OmahaChef · Post by **OmahaChef** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:13 pm

I'll admit to lots of foot traffic in the Old Market, but in the central business district of Omaha? You can work in the UP building and walk a tunnel from parking to your office, eat lunch, and walk back to your car without ever leaving the building for the sidewalk out front. The same is true for any FNB building. The same is true for ConAgra employees. The same is true for anyone in the Central Park Plaza towers. The same is true at Woodman. The same is true for Doubletree employees. Oh and OPPD staff. My parents were out here a couple of years ago, and they remarked to me on a mid-day walk downtown as to how empty the sidewalks were. And it was a weekday. Except in the Old Market...there always seems to be some traffic there.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:07 pm

Ok. Enough BS. It's time for photo proof.

First, Lincoln. I did an extensive photo tour of downtown Lincoln when I went to school there a couple years ago. On a gorgious fall afternoon during the work week, a day where you would have NO EXCUSE not to be outside, I ventured out to take some photos. Here are some of the BEST shots showing foot traffic that I have. I am not sensoring.

And now for Omaha. Here are the best pedestrian traffic photos from an EQUALLY GORGEOUS day in downtown Omaha during the afternoon. And these are not even taking the Old Market into account.

And just for good measure, here is one of my best shots of Old Market activity, which thrives year round all day.

NO, Lincoln does NOT have more foot traffic downtown than Omaha. I'm not saying Lincoln is not vibrant, I'm just saying there is absolutely no argument that it is more so than Omaha.

GoWest · Post by **GoWest** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:34 pm

Obviously some may disagree with you. It’s not that big if a deal. Some of you act like it’s a personal attack on you if we think another city has something better going on than Omaha. I love your photos, but they prove nothing. I could show you a picture of NYC with less people than you see in your Omaha pictures and it would mean nothing. I don’t know why it’s a big deal that some think Lincoln’s downtown is more vibrant. If I liked Lincoln better I would live there.

MTO · Post by **MTO** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:06 pm

What! StreetsOfOmaha just proved it, nuff said.
Admin Lock Thread

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:33 pm

Nice pics. And Lincoln still has more street activity!!

jsheets · Post by **jsheets** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:50 pm

Great pics of DTOmaha and the Old Market at lunch time, and great pics of DTLincoln in the middle of the afternoon!

Doesn't change my opinion one bit, but thanks for the great pics!

Anyone have any great photos of Jazz in June from DTLincoln?

Linkin5 · Post by **Linkin5** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:51 pm

LOL! Wow those are extremely skewed pictures, nice try.

edsas · Post by **edsas** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:59 pm

DT Lincoln is a ghost town* and everybody knows it!

*From 2 am to 7 am.

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:56 pm

No doubt downtown Lincoln foot traffic takes a hit during the summer months as well.

Those pictures Aaron took of DTL look like they were taken around early evening or so.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:58 pm

That article sounds like it was written by a 5th grader. It was repetitve as heck.

Thanks for the pics Aaron. You just saved me a trip to Lincoln.

Finn- Yeah I might argue with what you say but it's killing me to know what DTL has that makes it more active than Omaha. Or maybe I'll just aks the fine people of Gallup. Even with UNL they don't have the businesses or employees, residents, or attractions DTO has. Anything you can educate me on I would love to hear.

edsas · Post by **edsas** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:35 pm

The main factor that gives DT Lincoln more pedestrian activity on average than Omaha is the University (factoring in not only students, but the faculty and all those who come to DT specifically for some University-related reason) and the fact that DT Lincoln serves as the primary entertainment district for the city. Lincoln has the most walkable urban core in the state.

I mean, you guys can show all the pictures you want, but there's not going to be any definitive proof of anything. There's no stats on this stuff. It's based soley on observation. Considering that you're arguing with guys on an Omaha forum (this is not pro-Lincoln bias) you ought to consider the likelihood that our observation is correct. You don't have to believe it, but whatever. Nobody on here has any reason to boost Lincoln. Where just calling it like we see it. And as we see it, Lincoln's got more of a pedestrian-rich DT than Omaha.

SychoBC · Post by **SychoBC** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:56 pm

Finn wrote:Nice pics. And Lincoln still has more street activity!!

I apologize, guys. I didn't realize so many of you were blind, and I'm sure me using "pictures" to win this argument was a little insulting. So, I am sorry.

These pictures prove EVERYTHING. I can absolutely vouch that both these photo tours were taken in mid afternoon, around 2 or 3 PM, during absolutely gorgeous weather. I even picked the best pedestrian photos from both cities. The playing field was even, and Omaha has more foot traffic. They were even both taken in the same year just months apart.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:32 pm

Woops. Wasn't logged in, but that last post is mine.

GoWest · Post by **GoWest** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:09 pm

Pictures don’t prove ANYTHING. If one wants to see the difference, the only way they can judge this is by experiencing both downtowns themselves. Again Omaha is my city, but I am a realist. Look at the competing photos above. In the Omaha photos there are very few shops or stores that a pedestrian would go into. It looks like people flooded the streets during lunch hour. Most of the buildings are office buildings with an entrance to the office area. The Lincoln photos show a lot of small shops and retail outlets that a pedestrian could venture into. Aside from Kinkos (and it looks pretty sad as you see it) you can’t really identify any retail stores. That’s the thing that I notice the most when I go to downtown Lincoln. There are many stores that I can venture into. Again I love Omaha, but props to Lincoln on a great downtown vibe.

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:06 am

Aaron... be careful... there appears to be someone over at your place posting from your computer... using a different alias. ;)

edsas · Post by **edsas** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:33 am

Aaron, what's with the alias? You're also SychoBC?

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:41 am

I think its Joe$, lol

DMRyan · Post by **DMRyan** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:40 am

*throws fuel on the fire*

I'm sorry, but I'm highly skeptical that those Omaha photos were taken at 2 or 3 in the afternoon. If so, people must have some damn cushy jobs to be milling around at sidewalk cafes, hitting up street vendors, and relaxing in the sunshine at three in the afternoon. Furthermore, I spent some weekday time in downtown Omaha about a month ago. This was about 2 or 3 in the afternoon, sunny day, temps in the 70's, and I didn't see any scenes like that in the "business core" (I didn't make it to the Old Market). There were no street vendors and throngs of people lined up behind them at 2:30 PM.

The sun angles in each of the photos don't look the same either. I've never really been to downtown Lincoln, so I'm not here to say that one downtown is more vibrant than another, but I don't think those photos are really a fair indication of anything.

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:29 am

I apologize, guys. I didn't realize so many of you were blind, and I'm sure me using "pictures" to win this argument was a little insulting. So, I am sorry.

Not so blind that I didn't notice that 8 of your 12 "winning argument" pictures were taken from various views at the intersection of 16th and Dodge Street.

Thanks for showing people cross the street and showing them again on the other side. I must have missed all that activity!