North Downtown is NoDuh

[Swift]

who cares as long as it is cool and they serve beer. We should all be worried about the content rather than a name.

Wrong. We need to be concerned with both the content AND the name. A romantic sounding name does as much to draw people to this area as do the actual things of interest in the area. Every aspect of Upper Market needs to be as aesthetically pleasing as possible, including the name.

[WT]

Every aspect of Upper Market needs to be as aesthetically pleasing as possible, including the name.

Right, because places like Lower Downtown (LoDo, Denver) and The Country Club Plaza (KC) were named so well "to be aesthetically pleasing". You hear these names now and it aesthetically pleasing because of the place, but back in the day, Corky and his sister Becka argued about the same thing (Becka won, btw). 15 years from now, you will say, "damn North Downtown is the place to be. It just sounds cool."
A name of a place should be named for its location or what was there. Otherwise, you can name it Upper Market and people will go there and say, "this looks nothing like the old market, why did they name it Upper Market." You might as well name it "Village Pointe East" or "Tivoli 2" if you want to give it an irrelevant name.
But, guess what, it is already named after its geographic location, North Downtown because *ding *ding *ding you guessed it, it is the north side of downtown and people will know where it is at when you say it. You can call it Upper Market or Johnsonville, for all that I or anybody else cares, you just will put confusing faces on those that you speak to about it.

[Swift]

Every aspect of Upper Market needs to be as aesthetically pleasing as possible, including the name.

Right, because places like Lower Downtown (LoDo, Denver) and The Country Club Plaza (KC) were named so well "to be aesthetically pleasing". You hear these names now and it aesthetically pleasing because of the place, but back in the day, Corky and his sister Becka argued about the same thing (Becka won, btw). 15 years from now, you will say, "damn North Downtown is the place to be. It just sounds cool."
A name of a place should be named for its location or what was there. Otherwise, you can name it Upper Market and people will go there and say, "this looks nothing like the old market, why did they name it Upper Market." You might as well name it "Village Pointe East" or "Tivoli 2" if you want to give it an irrelevant name.
But, guess what, it is already named after its geographic location, North Downtown because *ding *ding *ding you guessed it, it is the north side of downtown and people will know where it is at when you say it. You can call it Upper Market or Johnsonville, for all that I or anybody else cares, you just will put confusing faces on those that you speak to about it.

Not named to be aesthetically pleasing, but having an aesthically pleasing name. There is a difference. The place it self will be aesthically pleasing once people are there, but until people get there the only thing they will have to judge it by is the name.

Yes it is already named after a geographic location, but as I said earlier in this thread, every city in America has a downtown and thusly every city in America has a North Downtown or North Downtown. The point is to make this area of town as unique to Omaha as possible. Hence name it after a geographic location that is unique to Omaha, the Old Market (specifically, above the Old Market on a map).

And it's not irrelevant name, it's above the Old Market on the map i.e. Upper Market.

[POTUS]

Swift,

It's true, I'll admit, every American city has a north side of downtown, but the only North Downtown is in Denver.

As far as making our new North Downtown unique, well, this ain't San Antonio, and we can't afford a riverwalk. This ain't Manhattan, and we can't just plop a Central Park. This ain't Boston, and we can't just plop a Boston Commons. This ain't Las Vegas, and a gambling strip along Cuming isn't in our cards (thankfully if you ask me). So I really don't see how a couple of colorful buildings and a small ballpark all designed by HDR is worth all this debate.

You are clinging too tightly to this Upper Market thing. Your reasoning for calling it that because it is north of the Old Market on a map is a thin argument at best. Should south 13th, including the Bohemian Cafe, be renamed South Market?

I'm sticking with calling this piece of land what it is: Downtown.

Can we get back to the Elkorn annexation debate now?

[Swift]

No it would be called Lower Market (You obviously haven't looked at this thread http://www.eomaha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1586 )

If calling it Upper Market because it is above the Old MArket is thin then so are the reasons for calling it North Downtown.

Denver might be the only "North Downtown" but every city has an area north of downtown. All that's missing is the abbreviation.

a couple of colorful buildings and a small barkpark

Did you even read the study? It's a stretch to believe that 80 square blocks would only house a couple of colorful buildings and a ballpark. This area is larger than the Old Market and is slated to be Omaha's premier entertainment area.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

One thing that Doug (Bisson) made very clear to me when describing the importance of this study, is that the study area is BIGGER THAN OUR CURRENT DOWNTOWN. No, Potus. It's not just a couple "colorful buildings and a ballpark". This will be a completely new district for our city.

As far as I'm concerned, I just consider it a new part of downtown, and I will refer to it as such. But under its umbrella of being downtown, it must have, as Bob (Swift) points out, a more romantic name. People much too often don't pay enough attention to the importance of giving an area a "sense of place."

Eric (Zephyr) and I have talked about this many times. Saying "Downtown" is just too broad. Within downtown there are unique pockets and enclaves, each with their own identity, or supposed identity, since there are generally no proper names associated with these areas within downtown, which is unfortunate. There needs to be more names associated with different areas downtown, and elsewhere in the city, and widely recognized names, at that. One area of downtown that I adore and would love to see gain more of an individual identity is Southern Downtown, or SoDo (haha, just kidding). But seriously, I love this area. It has a unique sense of place because of the way St. Mary's Avenue cuts diagonally through the street grid. Because of this, you get lots of interesting urban vistas, many of which are underutilized, unknown, and underappreciated because of the nature of one way streets. For instance, the view EAST down St. Mary's Avenue is GORGEOUS! But people rarely see it because it is a one way street going west out of downtown. Anyway, Eric and I have talked about making one of the triangle pieces of land caused by the angle of St. Mary's Avenue into an urban square with a fountain and/or statue, and giving the square a name, St. Mary's Square for example. Then that area of downtown would be referred to as "[fill in the blank] Square". The same thing can be done all over downtown, giving areas more of an identity, other than just being "downtown."

Anyway, I digress, but the point is that names ARE very important to the end of giving areas a very important sense of place.

[Zephyr]

Couldn't agree with you more, Streets. How about St. Mary's Square for that area of downtown? Has a nice ring to it. And speaking of squares, Omaha once had 2 squares identified in its first plat, about 150 years ago.
Washington Square (16th-Douglas-15th-Farnam):

Jefferson Square (16th-Cass-15th-Chicago):


Perhaps we could start with these 3 and work from there. Washington Square needs a new development where ParkFair is at and for Jefferson Square... well, what can you do when a freeway covers most of the square? A Founder's Square would also be cool.

St. Mary's Square:

[DTO Luv]

DTN

[Blazepaw]

By the way are we going to call the new Latin based 24th St area MEXDO?

After we grab them up can we look forward to a ELKDO? May be a MILDO?

How about we use our brains and some of our actual city history to give this emerging area a fresh name that has everything to do with it and not what lies WAY south?

How about the "Love District".

I know at first it sounds a bit much, but if you would ask Philadelphia's citizens if Love Park was a bad idea they would say no it has worked out as a fantastic draw.

It would be named after a prominent citizen, and a minority.

It would always have that. Yet it would have the double meaning as well.

Not a bad one.

Preston Love wrote our cities official song "Omaha Blues"

Like I said "The Love District" sounds hokey at first but North Downtown works better? LOL

[Swift]

The Love District could only be the gay district.


I said this in another post, but since people seem so opposed to calling it Upper MArket, then why don't we name it after a near by district of town that has since been lost, i.e. Jobber's Canyon or New Jobber's Canyon?

[Harpoon]

Boys and girls. It is called North Downtown, and will always be called North Downtown. This is the only name that it has ever had based on the study recently completed. I don't see a need to name it something special like every other superficial subdivision in West Omaha. Out there, they typically name stuff after what they bulldozed to build it. Deer Creek, Pine Meadows, Stillborn Ridge, whatever it may be called. That would mean that we need to call this place "Abandoned Warehouse-Rundown Acres". We'll even get a big boulder and bronze sculpture at the gateway into the area and put some Mulhalls landscaping around it all so nobody will be confused as to what the area is called as they are entering.

In all seriousness, eventually, once Slowdown opens up and the ballpark and ESPN Zone set up shop down there people will just refer to it as: "Hey, let's go catch a Royals game and afterwards head to the 'Zone". I don't think it will have a special catchphrase attached to it... and if it did, most people would call it North Downtown. I prefer North Downtown... but whatever.

[Swift]

A name is important, not for locals, but for people visiting the city. They need to be able to look at a guide map and go: "oh , Upper Market looks interesting, let's go there!" and if they get lost they need to be able to ask someone: "can you tell us how to get to Upper Market?"

it needs to have a name if only for the fact that districts are exciting and romantic to people, when you hear the name of a district that you've never been to your imagination starts churning. but if you just call "that area where the espn zone is"....well I think you get the picture.

the difference between naming this area and naming a west o housing division is that there will be way more destinations of interest in this area than in the West o divisions. this area of town will actually have vibrancy, while the housing divisions are where you go to sleep (for the most part).

[DTO Luv]

^ Smart |expletive| ;) I'm telling you all, DTN is the way to go. A railroad association in the name doesn't sound bad at all.

I see the homeless guy at the exit ramp from I480 to Cuming every morning of the week, sign in his hand, asking for whatever one wants to give him.

I had one of those guys mow my lawn for some spaghetti one time. I really hate mowing the grass. It's so pointless.

[Omaha Cowboy]

..

The tone of your post gave me a chuckle Chef..But I'm laughing with you..

All I have to say is AMEN OmahaChef!..Excellent post and I agree with your sentiments 100%..

And for the record (once again), I'll stick to calling it North Downtown and hope to heck all the proposed development comes to complete fruition for the area (FRAMFOGUPRR notwithstanding )..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[OmahaChef]

Thanks! Who says I don't have any wit late at night when drunk bozos are setting off illegal fireworks outside my apartment building and keeping me from my sleep!

Actually, I'm sticking with North Downtown too. FRAMFOGUPRR doesn't exactly roll off my tongue.

[POTUS]

Current area as provided by the Greater Omaha Chamber of Commerce:



Their proposal for the area: (I don't see 80 city blocks here, btw)



My proposal for the area:



You'll notice their proposal includes an office park, which is low-mid rise buildings surrounded by seas of parking. My proposal has no shame in putting in parking garages, and the dotted lines you see along 10th, Cuming, and heading north on 16th are light rail.

Some things included in my design: I let the streets fill out the grid, as they are right now, most don't go through. I added plenty of first level retail and restaurants. I put in at least two hotels, the possibility of a casino/hotel, a 400' flag pole right next to I480, lots of smaller 3/4/5 story apartment buildings, a Ripley's Believe It Or Not/Museum of Wax/Hard Rock Cafe and others all on one plaza, a 12 screen theater, and 200' long illuminated public art display right at 10th and Cuming.

[Finn]

I agree that some are being a little zealous with the naming and trying to tag a link where there isn't one (eg Upper Market). Your points are taken. But isn't that still a little short sighted? What is wrong with some historical context to give local identity? Asarco wasn't there from the founding of the city! Something else was. Maybe it was the main ferry crossing for settlers, the first port, etc. The same thing goes for the UP Yards (eastern reaches of the 1898 Trans-Mississippi and International Exposition).

In 50 years when they demolish ConAgra to put up more dense development for a vibrant neighborhood, will they call it Former Out-of-Place Suburban Development in the Middle of Downtown (ala FRAMFOGUPRR) or something new and bland like Near River (ala North Downtown) or will they have the foresight to possibly place a historical tag like Jobbers Canyon to the area. Just because the last use doesn't conjure images of past significance doesn't diminish the historical context or previous stamp on the community. We have short memories, if we don't provide remembrance, it fades.

[POTUS]

Finn,

Thanks. That's probably the first comment on this topic with any depth to it.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Thanks! Who says I don't have any wit late at night when drunk bozos are setting off illegal fireworks outside my apartment building and keeping me from my sleep!

Actually, I'm sticking with North Downtown too. FRAMFOGUPRR doesn't exactly roll off my tongue.

I'm with you Chef..

And no..IMO calling the area North Downtown is not 'short-sighted' at all..It is what it is..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Harpoon]

POTUS, what is the significance of the 400' flagpole? Sounds kind of strange to me.

[DTO Luv]

Why the heck would they put an office park here?

[Harpoon]

This isn't your typical "office park" type of development like we see in suburbia. This is over a million square feet with the buildings fronting along the street in a very pedestrian-friendly manner, 3-5 story buildings, some mixed-use. If Omaha could attract another corporate headquarters to occupy this area it would really create an anchor for the rest of the district. Gallup is talking about needing more space already, and the chamber is diligently trying to sell Omaha to potential companies. If we can tell them that we have 1 million square feet available it really is a plus for Omaha. And being just a couple miles down the road from the airport doesn't hurt either. And it makes a good transition to the industrial areas to the north. In my opinion, it is a perfect fit.

[DTO Luv]

I read something in the Chamber of Commerce guide that just sickened me. I got my copy in the OM at 10th and Harney (by that Choclate store). It is talking about office space in Omaha. The quote is from R.J. Neary of Investors Realty. I know I've heard this name come up a few times in city stuff. And ways while he's talking about DTO this is what he had to say.

Only a few skyscrapers decorate the Downtown area. "In metro Omaha we have room to spread out. We don't need to build up."

Why the heck would we add another campus DT? Conagra takes up so much room already. Gallup is ok, but to add 1,000,000 square feet in an office park (UPC is 1.1M sq ft.) is absolutley |expletive| stupid. This would take up way to much space in the NDT area.

One thing people who aren't way into Omaha like we are, always say is that we need more tall buildings. So I guess I was right that DT could support more office space, even with the high vacancies. This really upsets me off. How can we put a big |expletive| suburban (it is suburban no matter how big it is) office park on the big URBAN gateway into DT? With 1M sq ft of space we could have 2 or 3 nice sized buildings in the CBD.

I see what they are hoping for with trying to attract businesses, but they should do it in a tower(s) form. NDT should be more residential/entertainment oriented. Putting something in there that's specifically 9-5 would make a large part of the area deserted with no chance of future development. Plus think of how much parking that would be taken up. You'd have about as much or more as their is at the Qwest Center now.

And why would anyone want to locate to an office park DT when there are tons of them out west (closer to the employees ) that wouldn't take the long drive. What the |expletive| idiots behind this should do is create a UNIQUE office space(s). Build another First National and I guarantee you it would fill up faster than this new, bigger Conagra campus. When the Empire State and WTC were built, they weren't needed. They were built with the hopes of turning around the areas they were in. Both struggled at first but went on to become iconic buildings in NYC and around the world. Building a new tall building for Omaha won't get recognized the world but it will get people in this city a new focal point and draw more business DT.


Harpoon-
Where did you find this out at?

[DTO Luv]

With something here and the 30 story building at UP, and with whatever they decide to do with the Swanson site, you'd have a dense and tall new corridor for DTO. Ugghhhhh!! An office park?!?!

[Swift]

Thanks! Who says I don't have any wit late at night when drunk bozos are setting off illegal fireworks outside my apartment building and keeping me from my sleep!

Actually, I'm sticking with North Downtown too. FRAMFOGUPRR doesn't exactly roll off my tongue.

I'm with you Chef..

And no..IMO calling the area North Downtown is not 'short-sighted' at all..It is what it is..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

Sure, calling it North Downtown or just some generic name like that might be technically correct. But that's like naming your son "Child." It may be accurate, be it doesn't show any love or affection.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Thanks! Who says I don't have any wit late at night when drunk bozos are setting off illegal fireworks outside my apartment building and keeping me from my sleep!

Actually, I'm sticking with North Downtown too. FRAMFOGUPRR doesn't exactly roll off my tongue.

I'm with you Chef..

And no..IMO calling the area North Downtown is not 'short-sighted' at all..It is what it is..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

Sure, calling it North Downtown or just some generic name like that might be technically correct. But that's like naming your son "Child." It may be accurate, be it doesn't show any love or affection.

IMO this North Downtown naming issue is just sizzle stuff that in the grand scheme of making Omaha a more significant city; matters VERY little..

Focus on the STEAK: inPlay, the Hampton Inn Hotel, Saddle Creek's Slowdown venue, the indie movie theatre, a possible ballpark, art museum/resident dwellngs, a grocery store, or a possible corporate headquarters relocation etc..THIS is what matters MOST to this area..Not some milk and honey name..

It is what it is: North Downtown..And it's trying to make a name for itself by being REVENUE generating..It doesn't need to be renamed anything else for this purpose..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Swift]

It's not sizzling, it's the marinade you put on the stake. Sure the stake might be good without the marinade, but not nearly as good as with it.

[Big E]

Oh god...

If you're marinading your steak, it's because you have a piece of garbage steak that can't hold up on its own.

I suggest we quit calling it anything until it's actually SOMETHING. I have a hunch that if you let it evolve it will develop it's own identity. People will call it whatever they want. Don't force the issue.

-Big E

[almighty_tuna]

I want steak...

[mchine73]

And I want a stake

[Swift]

Oh god...

If you're marinading your steak, it's because you have a piece of garbage steak that can't hold up on its own.

I suggest we quit calling it anything until it's actually SOMETHING. I have a hunch that if you let it evolve it will develop it's own identity. People will call it whatever they want. Don't force the issue.

-Big E

Good plan, more people should take that approach with their children.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Swift wrote:

'more people should take that approach with their children.'..

Dude c'mon..we're talking about a section of DT Omaha, not an actual human being..BIG difference..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Swift]

What, you're saying a neighborhood isn't a living entity?

We need to call it something as is obvious by the fact that they call it "North Downtown"...we can't wait until it is "something" because it is already something.

[FatGuy]

If North Downtown has entered its 3rd trimester, it is probably a "viable" fetus/being and can live on its own. If it hasn't, [/u]Roe v. Wade says we can abort it.

[DMRyan]

Jesus Christ. I have no idea what you guys are even talking about anymore.

And I thought only DTO Luv could tie the words 'fetus' and 'downtown Omaha' together.

[nebugeater]

Funny thing is that trailer looks no where near 200,000 Sq Ft!!!!!!

With something here and the 30 story building at UP, and with whatever they decide to do with the Swanson site, you'd have a dense and tall new corridor for DTO. Ugghhhhh!! An office park?!?!

[Omaha Cowboy]

..

I think it's time for me to leave this particular discussion now..It's getting pretty silly..

And Swift good buddy, it is called something already: North Downtown..



..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Swift]

Yeah and that name is so non-specific and boring it makes me want to puke!

[Omaha Cowboy]

Yeah and that name is so non-specific and boring it makes me want to puke!

A restatement of something I posted earlier here in reponse to the above:

Focus on the STEAK: inPlay, the Hampton Inn Hotel, Saddle Creek's Slowdown venue, the indie movie theatre, a possible ballpark, art museum/resident dwellngs, a grocery store, or a possible corporate headquarters relocation etc..THIS is what matters MOST to this area..Not some milk and honey name..

My final post on this thread..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[nebport5]

well I have to agree the name IS significant. When this area first became something of disccusion most on this board refered to it as...
" the Near North Side", there maybe something better but I like this name.

North Downtown sounds really bad, if it didn't there wouldn't be this discussion about the name.

Some of the suggested names seem to have beeen drawn out of a hat. Keep in mind the names of these areas generally have something to DO with the area. Whether its a physicality reference like " the upper west side" or feature reference like the "Garden District"(New Orleans) these names make sense. Upper market makes no sense because there isn't one.


Also I don't think I've seen anyone mention that Near North Side does have presidence(Chicago). And geographically its a good name.