Oak View Mall (144 & West Center Rd)

[GetUrban]

If IKEA was coming and there was available land, I think Westroads area would be extremely attractive with access to 680, not to mention Dodge.


Greg

I agree Westroads would also be a good location for IKEA. Overall, it would be a great “get” for Omaha no matter what.

[Omaha Cowboy]

But..

If the minor miracle occurred..and IKEA chose to hang a hat in Omaha..and select the Oakview Mousetrap as its location spot..It would change the size/scope of this development forever..maybe even allow for changes to the grid for easier in and out flow of traffic..

The overall attitude of most on this forum is to give up and move on from Oakview..But, it’s still alive and fairly far from death at present..

I’d personally very much enjoy seeing Oakview get an unlikely win such as an IKEA..as far flung as even I believe it would be...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[Brad]

Before anyone gets any more Crazy Ikea ideas.... Every single Ikea in the United States except Brooklyn, Seattle, and Atlanta are right next to the interstate. Brooklyn, Seattle, and Atlanta are all in way more dense areas, and while Seattle and Atlanta are not on the interstate, they are still way closer than Oakview.

[Omaha Cowboy]

An IKEA store in Omaha would equate to a “fantasy island” get in general.. Let alone the idea of one popping up in the Oakview Mousetrap..

So I don’t think anyone is holding their breath for this happenstance , lol...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[Brad]

If you missed Grow Omaha on Saturday.



Oakview starts about the 20 min mark. Doesn't sound good for Oakview. New out of state owner with basically low rents with a lot of second or third rate businesses.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Thanks Brad for the heads up and posting the podcast link because I missed Saturday’s show due to having a rare weekend WebEx work meeting the same time Grow Omaha was on the air..

It doesn’t sound like the guys really know anything definitive..But Trenton saying he doesn’t expect Oakview to go away anytime soon is a positive..

I really wish one of our local media outlets, which could invest the time and resources, would really get into uncovering the specific goings on with Oakview and its surrounding mousetrap. Jeff’s right when he stated “who isn’t concerned” regarding the future of Oakview (minus, I’d suspect, a few forum members here who have given up on it and or could care less, lol)..

In any case-

What we do keep hearing is loose “rumors”- that “someone heard from someone’s brother whose mom used to work at Oakview that blah blah blah.....”..

It would be refreshing to hear some actual, factual intel. I’ll provide something factual and positive (at least to me)- the Wine BEER and Spirits location which opened in the former Toys R Us within the mousetrap last May is doing very well according to my last conversation with one of its owners about 2 months ago. My eyeball test also tells me business is brisk there.. And they keep adding on within the store warehouse..So I can give you that...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[Busguy2010]

Just wondering what differentiates Oakview from Crossroads.

As we actively watch Crossroads disappear, it's hard for me to imagine what Oakview really has to offer that a now non existing mall offered at some point.

I used to ride the 15 out to Oakview all the time as a kid in the early 2000's, but I'd be reaching to find anything alluring about it anymore.

I really liked the big glass dome over the food court, though.

[Busguy2010]

I'm talking about the contiguous mall buildings themselves, not the supporting surrounding areas.

[Greg S]

I'm talking about the contiguous mall buildings themselves, not the supporting surrounding areas.

Outside of Dillard's I don't go to Oak View anymore. I used to go for Eddie Bauer as well but since that closed I probably go to the interior of the mall once a year. My kids don't go to malls much but if they do, they will only go to Westroads.


Greg

[ita]

Thanks Brad for the heads up and posting the podcast link because I missed Saturday’s show due to having a rare weekend WebEx work meeting the same time Grow Omaha was on the air..

It doesn’t sound like the guys really know anything definitive..But Trenton saying he doesn’t expect Oakview to go away anytime soon is a positive..

I really wish one of our local media outlets, which could invest the time and resources, would really get into uncovering the specific goings on with Oakview and its surrounding mousetrap. Jeff’s right when he stated “who isn’t concerned” regarding the future of Oakview (minus, I’d suspect, a few forum members here who have given up on it and or could care less, lol)..

In any case-

What we do keep hearing is loose “rumors”- that “someone heard from someone’s brother whose mom used to work at Oakview that blah blah blah.....”..

It would be refreshing to hear some actual, factual intel. I’ll provide something factual and positive (at least to me)- the Wine BEER and Spirits location which opened in the former Toys R Us within the mousetrap last May is doing very well according to my last conversation with one of its owners about 2 months ago. My eyeball test also tells me business is brisk there.. And they keep adding on within the store warehouse..So I can give you that...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Jeff seemed sure that there was interest from the entity Brad referred to. As far as Oakview existing after the possible sale, it sounds like it will be a round as is, but as a discount mall rent location, which sounds like what Crossroads was for a long while before it coming down. Interior stores may take a nosedive in terms of quality of brands, but that means it pretty much stays up as is and not redeveloped. Even if this is just a rumor, rumors of the sale of Oakview have been fairly firm rumors that followed through. Jeff's prediction of Oakview's continued devolution under the possible new ownership sounds like the natural regression of any mall struggling in the last couple decades. Don't get me wrong, I am usually optimistic about developments in Omaha and the direction of the City, and I live near Oakview Mall and do not want to see it 'fail' (however, you want to define that), but the writing is on the wall and I imagine a year of Covid kicked the current owners in the unspeakables. I wouldn't be surprised if they make a business decision and cut their losses by selling to a low rent mall owner.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Thanks Brad for the heads up and posting the podcast link because I missed Saturday’s show due to having a rare weekend WebEx work meeting the same time Grow Omaha was on the air..

It doesn’t sound like the guys really know anything definitive..But Trenton saying he doesn’t expect Oakview to go away anytime soon is a positive..

I really wish one of our local media outlets, which could invest the time and resources, would really get into uncovering the specific goings on with Oakview and its surrounding mousetrap. Jeff’s right when he stated “who isn’t concerned” regarding the future of Oakview (minus, I’d suspect, a few forum members here who have given up on it and or could care less, lol)..

In any case-

What we do keep hearing is loose “rumors”- that “someone heard from someone’s brother whose mom used to work at Oakview that blah blah blah.....”..

It would be refreshing to hear some actual, factual intel. I’ll provide something factual and positive (at least to me)- the Wine BEER and Spirits location which opened in the former Toys R Us within the mousetrap last May is doing very well according to my last conversation with one of its owners about 2 months ago. My eyeball test also tells me business is brisk there.. And they keep adding on within the store warehouse..So I can give you that...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Jeff seemed sure that there was interest from the entity Brad referred to. I wouldn't be surprised if they make a business decision and cut their losses by selling to a low rent mall owner.

From the info Jeff Beals indicated, it appears this is the direction the mall portion of Oakview is headed. I’d hate to see the property cheapened in any way..

We’ll have to wait and see what ultimately happens...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[omaha79]

I never wanted to be right about this, but devolving into a 3rd rate mom and pop shop really is part of the death spiral of a dying mall. Once you get to this point, there is no pulling out. A big anchor chain isn't opening a location in a 3rd rate mall with lower end non-chain retailers.

There is no mall in Omaha's history that has pulled out of the death cycle once it has progressed to this level. Center, Southroads, Parkfair, Mall of the Bluffs, Crossroads. The final result is always the same.

[jomaha9]

Agreed.

IMO, the best chance to save the mall is to develop the parking lots around it into mixed use/residential units. There are literally miles of parking around Oak View and the mall is no longer at a point where all those parking spots are going to be used. An influx of residents in that area might preserve the mall as a second-tier shopping center while also addressing affordable housing needs in the city.

[LetsBeReal22]

Agreed.

IMO, the best chance to save the mall is to develop the parking lots around it into mixed use/residential units. There are literally miles of parking around Oak View and the mall is no longer at a point where all those parking spots are going to be used. An influx of residents in that area might preserve the mall as a second-tier shopping center.

100% agree. A thousand new residents with climate controlled access into the mall should make a pretty big difference.

[omaha79]

Agreed.

IMO, the best chance to save the mall is to develop the parking lots around it into mixed use/residential units. There are literally miles of parking around Oak View and the mall is no longer at a point where all those parking spots are going to be used. An influx of residents in that area might preserve the mall as a second-tier shopping center while also addressing affordable housing needs in the city.

I like the outside of the box thinking, but what is the target demographic for that? It would have to be affordable housing. I promise, there is no one buying into condos or townhomes that are located in a sea of parking lots next to a white dying wale of a mall structure that runs the risk of becoming even more blighted in the next 10 years. Just not a solid investment. It would have to be apartments and lower end at that. The luxury apartment people want ambiance. They want lake life. They want great clubhouses. Not a view off their balcony of a Sears label and an empty Village Inn.

Mixed use has to be created from scratch typically. The malls of yesteryear aren't conducive to being retrofitted into livable communities because they were built to serve one purpose: commerce. The only afterlife we've really seen is use as office parks (Center and less successfully Southroads).

I don't really have an answer for what Oak View will become, but if history is any indicator...it's not good.

[jomaha9]

Agreed.

IMO, the best chance to save the mall is to develop the parking lots around it into mixed use/residential units. There are literally miles of parking around Oak View and the mall is no longer at a point where all those parking spots are going to be used. An influx of residents in that area might preserve the mall as a second-tier shopping center while also addressing affordable housing needs in the city.

I like the outside of the box thinking, but what is the target demographic for that? It would have to be affordable housing. I promise, there is no one buying into condos or townhomes that are located in a sea of parking lots next to a white dying wale of a mall structure that runs the risk of becoming even more blighted in the next 10 years. Just not a solid investment. It would have to be apartments and lower end at that. The luxury apartment people want ambiance. They want lake life. They want great clubhouses. Not a view off their balcony of a Sears label and an empty Village Inn.

Mixed use has to be created from scratch typically. The malls of yesteryear aren't conducive to being retrofitted into livable communities because they were built to serve one purpose: commerce. The only afterlife we've really seen is use as office parks (Center and less successfully Southroads).

I don't really have an answer for what Oak View will become, but if history is any indicator...it's not good.

You make some really good points.

If I take a step back and look at the other threads, we talk about public transportation, urban infill, brain drain, ect. The current development at Oakview doesn't help fulfill these goals and was built for another time.

Instead of asking ourselves if Oakview can be saved, we should ask whether it should be saved.

[Louie]

Agreed.

IMO, the best chance to save the mall is to develop the parking lots around it into mixed use/residential units. There are literally miles of parking around Oak View and the mall is no longer at a point where all those parking spots are going to be used. An influx of residents in that area might preserve the mall as a second-tier shopping center while also addressing affordable housing needs in the city.

I like the outside of the box thinking, but what is the target demographic for that? It would have to be affordable housing. I promise, there is no one buying into condos or townhomes that are located in a sea of parking lots next to a white dying wale of a mall structure that runs the risk of becoming even more blighted in the next 10 years. Just not a solid investment. It would have to be apartments and lower end at that. The luxury apartment people want ambiance. They want lake life. They want great clubhouses. Not a view off their balcony of a Sears label and an empty Village Inn.

Mixed use has to be created from scratch typically. The malls of yesteryear aren't conducive to being retrofitted into livable communities because they were built to serve one purpose: commerce. The only afterlife we've really seen is use as office parks (Center and less successfully Southroads).

I don't really have an answer for what Oak View will become, but if history is any indicator...it's not good.

You make some really good points.

If I take a step back and look at the other threads, we talk about public transportation, urban infill, brain drain, ect. The current development at Oakview doesn't help fulfill these goals and was built for another time.

Instead of asking ourselves if Oakview can be saved, we should ask whether it should be saved.

This is my thought on the area as well. It holds no real value in my mind. And I grew up going there all the time.

[Busguy2010]

Oakview was built at the very end of the indoor mall era. Almost surprising whoever built it didn't see the writing on the wall for indoor malls at the time it was built. Would be amazing/incredible (not in the good sense) to see a mall built as late as the early 90's basically in hospice after only 30 years. I wonder if whoever built it or operated it got what they wanted out of it.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I think the developers got out of Oakview what they put into it.. It was a premium looking mall completed in 1991 that for probably 15 years, had a good run until the wheels came off..

The culprit(s) ? The World Wide Web and online shopping.. Then we add the layer of the pandemic, combined with a lack of committed vision, and we have what stands today..

I’m not quite as gloom and doom as some here- but it is concerning to hear the feedback from Jeff B that a buyer of the Mall component may drive rents down to create a 5 and dime environment, cheapen the tenant base..then once accomplished, potentially cut bait..

I remain in wait and see mode until further notice...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[Greg S]

Oakview was built at the very end of the indoor mall era. Almost surprising whoever built it didn't see the writing on the wall for indoor malls at the time it was built. Would be amazing/incredible (not in the good sense) to see a mall built as late as the early 90's basically in hospice after only 30 years. I wonder if whoever built it or operated it got what they wanted out of it.

I don’t agree with the first part of this. Oak View opened in 1991, ahead of Mall of America. Crossroads and Westroads underwent major renovations and expansions less than 5 years prior to its opening. Amazon, heck online shopping didn’t exist yet. So how is it surprising that the builders (Simon) didn’t see the end of indoor malls? I was in college then and spent breaks and summers then coming back to Omaha working at Brandeis/Younkers then.


Greg

[Cermak]

I don’t agree with that either, Malls were still going strong in the 90’s even the late 90’s. OakView just never remodeled enough and Westroads won out in the end because of it’s better location, more remodeling and Von Maur.

[Busguy2010]

Don't know the names of said malls, but through the years, I've heard of malls that were in decline or at the ends of their lives as early as the 80's. By the time Oakview was built, there had to be some evidence of malls not lasting long. And maybe they didn't expect it to. 30 years does just seem like an awfully short time for such an investment. If it were to even match the lifespan of Crossroads, it would go through a major remodel and renaissance for an additional 15 to 20 years before flaming out again. From what's being said here, that's not happening. I haven't actually been in Oakview in probably at least 10 years, but it sounds like it is at the point of mid 2000's Crossroads when it really fell off a cliff. Even it stood for another 15 years, but as nothing more than a depressing example of blight.

[Busguy2010]

Let me refine that by saying not that indoor malls weren't in renaissance at the time, it was just built on the tail end of said renaissance. There couldn't have been very many indoor malls built after it, generally speaking.

[bigredmed1]

The flow of Oakview was bad. In the Westroads and Crossroads, you could walk from a store to another and then to a third in a forward manner. In the Oakview, the long narrow hallways meant going from end of hallway 1 to downstairs of hallway 2, to hallway 3 in a way that seemed inefficient. It may have been an illusion, but it just seemed less convenient to shop there.

The outer ring of stores was another bing anchor. I drive there and half a dozen big box stores are barely hanging on and the roads are bombed out. Overall, just seems sad and craptastic.

BTW, Crossroads was on its way out before 2000. It just could not compete with the Westroads. The Southroads was built 10 years too late. When SAC restricted pilots to living really close to base, it was likely that a big mall might have made it. But given it’s flow pattern is even more inefficient than Oakview, it’s fate was sealed.

[Busguy2010]

BTW, Crossroads was on its way out before 2000. It just could not compete with the Westroads. The Southroads was built 10 years too late. When SAC restricted pilots to living really close to base, it was likely that a big mall might have made it. But given it’s flow pattern is even more inefficient than Oakview, it’s fate was sealed.

Might have been my wide-eyed-ness, as I grew up at Crossroads as a young child in the late 90's. It might have actually fell off a cliff in the mid 2000's, or maybe I just got old enough to where I could see through my childhood admiration of the place. What I really remember most was when the food court started emptying out and that had to be around 2002-2004. And after that happened, I found myself going there less and less. Then they started losing some stores I actually did go to such as Old Navy, Bath & Body Works, GAP, Foot Locker, Younkers, etc. Ohhhhh, and now I am remembering the candy store. Wow, digging deep now, I must have been 6 the last time I went to the candy store. I think it was the first store on the right when you go up the escalator. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, in general, its a well known cycle that a lot of malls have gone through. And it seems like Oakview is going through that process.

[omaha79]

Don't know the names of said malls, but through the years, I've heard of malls that were in decline or at the ends of their lives as early as the 80's. By the time Oakview was built, there had to be some evidence of malls not lasting long. And maybe they didn't expect it to. 30 years does just seem like an awfully short time for such an investment. If it were to even match the lifespan of Crossroads, it would go through a major remodel and renaissance for an additional 15 to 20 years before flaming out again. From what's being said here, that's not happening. I haven't actually been in Oakview in probably at least 10 years, but it sounds like it is at the point of mid 2000's Crossroads when it really fell off a cliff. Even it stood for another 15 years, but as nothing more than a depressing example of blight.

Is 30 years really a short time? If there is one constant, it is the short attention span of the general public. We've always been excited about the new, hip thing. I would argue that 30 years is about the life span of most of these developments. A mall like Westroads is somewhat an outlier in this market.

Center Mall: Opened 1960....in steep decline by the early 1990's. Dead mall status by the mid 90's. Roughly 30-35 year lifespan

Southroads Mall: Opened 1966...in steep decline by the mid 1990's. Dead mall status by the early 00's. Roughly 30-35 year lifespan

Mall of the Bluffs: Opened 1986...in steep decline by 2010's. Dead mall status by the mid 10's. demolished 2021. Roughly a 30 year lifespan

ParkFair: Huge mistake. Opened early 80's. In steep decline within 10 years. Dead mall status by early 00's. turned into a parking lot mid 00's

Crossroads Mall: Opened 1960...renovation in late 80's stemmed the tide, but in deep decline by early 00's...dead mall status by late 00's. roughly 40-45 year real lifespan

The bottom line is that, outside of Westroads, expecting more than 30-40 years out of a mall is unrealistic. Many of these had other mitigating factors that led to their decline, but the number one factor has always been the new hot thing opening somewhere down the street. Only so many consumers to go around and only so many brands to fill spaces, even in the best of times.

[Garrett]

I still think there are a few really ambitious and interesting ideas that could save Oakview if a developer wanted, but not as a full fledged retail space. Turning it into a massive themed entertainment center, for one.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I still think there are a few really ambitious and interesting ideas that could save Oakview if a developer wanted, but not as a full fledged retail space. Turning it into a massive themed entertainment center, for one.

I would agree with this.. Which is why this property is in that “let’s wait and see” status..

If Jeff Beals’ (Grow Omaha) intel is accurate, and there is a deal imminent with a buyer for the Mall portion who wants to drive the rent cost to “deep discount” status, then I become very worried about the future of Oakview..The mall component at least...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[Greg S]

Don't know the names of said malls, but through the years, I've heard of malls that were in decline or at the ends of their lives as early as the 80's. By the time Oakview was built, there had to be some evidence of malls not lasting long. And maybe they didn't expect it to. 30 years does just seem like an awfully short time for such an investment. If it were to even match the lifespan of Crossroads, it would go through a major remodel and renaissance for an additional 15 to 20 years before flaming out again. From what's being said here, that's not happening. I haven't actually been in Oakview in probably at least 10 years, but it sounds like it is at the point of mid 2000's Crossroads when it really fell off a cliff. Even it stood for another 15 years, but as nothing more than a depressing example of blight.

But I don't think it was because malls in general were in decline. Usually it was based on location or competition. When Crossroads was remodeled and expanded in 87, it place a major hit on Westroads. The Oak View opened and it took another hit. Then Westroads remodeled and added the food court, followed by the Von Maur wing. It was again the dominant mall. Crossroads got hurt more than anything because it got the reputation of having rough crowds in the late 90's. People just started migrating to Westroads.

Oak View opened well but there were issues right from the start. I remember when it was busy, the road around it was just awfulf for traffic. We started going to AMC from 132nd to avoid it. Plus it really didn't bring anything new and good, unless you count Champs. Crossroads brought in Dillard's and a bunch of stores in the new wing. Westroads landed Von Maur and Jones. Oak View just brought in anchors that were already here and most were smaller than their counter parts at other malls, but they were very nice. Also when it added department stores (Sears and Penny's) they didn't add a wing for them, just added them only. Where when Crossroads and Westroads added anchors there was excitement because they added wings to them and additional stores.

Southroads was also hurt that when it did a little remodel and expansion it couldn't land an additional anchor. It also took a big hit when the Kennedy freeway expansion was finished.

Greg

[omaha79]

Don't know the names of said malls, but through the years, I've heard of malls that were in decline or at the ends of their lives as early as the 80's. By the time Oakview was built, there had to be some evidence of malls not lasting long. And maybe they didn't expect it to. 30 years does just seem like an awfully short time for such an investment. If it were to even match the lifespan of Crossroads, it would go through a major remodel and renaissance for an additional 15 to 20 years before flaming out again. From what's being said here, that's not happening. I haven't actually been in Oakview in probably at least 10 years, but it sounds like it is at the point of mid 2000's Crossroads when it really fell off a cliff. Even it stood for another 15 years, but as nothing more than a depressing example of blight.

But I don't think it was because malls in general were in decline. Usually it was based on location or competition. When Crossroads was remodeled and expanded in 87, it place a major hit on Westroads. The Oak View opened and it took another hit. Then Westroads remodeled and added the food court, followed by the Von Maur wing. It was again the dominant mall. Crossroads got hurt more than anything because it got the reputation of having rough crowds in the late 90's. People just started migrating to Westroads.

Oak View opened well but there were issues right from the start. I remember when it was busy, the road around it was just awfulf for traffic. We started going to AMC from 132nd to avoid it. Plus it really didn't bring anything new and good, unless you count Champs. Crossroads brought in Dillard's and a bunch of stores in the new wing. Westroads landed Von Maur and Jones. Oak View just brought in anchors that were already here and most were smaller than their counter parts at other malls, but they were very nice. Also when it added department stores (Sears and Penny's) they didn't add a wing for them, just added them only. Where when Crossroads and Westroads added anchors there was excitement because they added wings to them and additional stores.

Southroads was also hurt that when it did a little remodel and expansion it couldn't land an additional anchor. It also took a big hit when the Kennedy freeway expansion was finished.

Greg

Like I've said, the market in Omaha has always had mitigating factors like rerouting the highway in the case of Southroads, but much of that is just the final nail. The overall death of malls has always been based on the development cycle of new retail projects.

16th Street was the king of Omaha retail shopping...until Crossroads and The Center were built and then that died off.

Crossroads and Center reigned until urban flight started pushing the population further and further West. They coexisted with Westroads for many years, but the more affluent people that pushed the city boundary further West culminated with the building of Oak View...and, you quickly saw both The Center and Crossroads start to completely die within the same year.

Mall of the Bluffs was the anchor of Council Bluffs retail for many years...until CB built the big strip malls on the South side of town and by the casinos. At that point, the mall died an agonizing death. Mall of the Bluffs, itself, killed the Omni Center in downtown CB.

Oak View thrived for years, but then Village Point opened in roughly 2004. There was a steep decline immediately after including losing Best Buy. The Gretna outlet malls poached more tenants. The announcement of the 144th and Dodge and Sterling Ridge developments siphoned off some retail and restaurants that would have naturally fit into the Oak View Mousetrap.

The bottom line is that every time a true major retail development is built, it is almost always at the expense of something else. They are cannibalistic in nature. Either we accept that, or we should have pushed for renewing what we've had rather than always building new and better retail. The commercial retail development industrial complex is to blame for this. It has always been an arms race rather than looking at what a community really needs.

[omaha79]

I do find it interesting how much Covid accelerated the process, but Oak View really is following the dying mall playbook to its natural conclusion as we've seen from so many of our former favorite malls in the metro area. I honestly still think this process was mostly inevitable for Oak View, but I never thought we'd see so much retail carnage within 3 years. I figured it would be a 10 year process before it reached Crossroads level. I'm thinking that could be 5-7 years now with Covid.

This post was from 4/3/2017. I feel like we are basically in the endgame now with the rumors that it's going to a 3rd rate low rent mall. Again, the only interest I get out of this is discussing the patterns that I've seen in the past playing out in the present. I'm sad whenever a mall dies as there is so much shared history lost...

I said about a year ago, in another thread, that the next step was to lose an anchor store. Once that happens, it's all down hill from there. Thing is, they may be set to lose two anchor stores relatively soon. I wasn't thinking Dillards would be one of them, but if they go, Sears is likely soon to follow. After that, you'll see an acceleration of name brand stores in the mall closing only to be replaced by mom and pop startups (just like Crossroads of 20 years ago). Then, the theater will close. Soon after, the mom and pop stores will close as well until we are left with a big hulking dinosaur of a building.

[Busguy2010]

I still think there are a few really ambitious and interesting ideas that could save Oakview if a developer wanted, but not as a full fledged retail space. Turning it into a massive themed entertainment center, for one.

A roller coaster in the dome would be really fun. Would have some decent height to it.

[Busguy2010]

Is 30 years really a short time? If there is one constant, it is the short attention span of the general public. We've always been excited about the new, hip thing. I would argue that 30 years is about the life span of most of these developments. A mall like Westroads is somewhat an outlier in this market.

The bottom line is that, outside of Westroads, expecting more than 30-40 years out of a mall is unrealistic. Many of these had other mitigating factors that led to their decline, but the number one factor has always been the new hot thing opening somewhere down the street. Only so many consumers to go around and only so many brands to fill spaces, even in the best of times.

I'm not saying 30 years isn't on par with some other malls, but yes, to me 30 years seems like a short lifespan for the investment. But it must not be. I don't know if the developer even expected more than it got out of it.

But there are plenty of people here and in the city who want/believe Oakview could be remodeled and be a player again (I'm not one of them). What I see and have seen for several years is a mall going through the dying process. We've seen this movie before. I wouldn't be surprised in the least bit for the whole loop area to be designated as blighted (if it isn't already) sooner rather than later. Serious talks of redevelopment will probably happen this decade. Which would be good if the writing is on the wall. If I lived around there, I'd rather have this happen sooner, and not have a shell of a mall sitting around as long a Crossroads did.

[omaha79]

Is 30 years really a short time? If there is one constant, it is the short attention span of the general public. We've always been excited about the new, hip thing. I would argue that 30 years is about the life span of most of these developments. A mall like Westroads is somewhat an outlier in this market.

The bottom line is that, outside of Westroads, expecting more than 30-40 years out of a mall is unrealistic. Many of these had other mitigating factors that led to their decline, but the number one factor has always been the new hot thing opening somewhere down the street. Only so many consumers to go around and only so many brands to fill spaces, even in the best of times.

I'm not saying 30 years isn't on par with some other malls, but yes, to me 30 years seems like a short lifespan for the investment. But it must not be. I don't know if the developer even expected more than it got out of it.

But there are plenty of people here and in the city who want/believe Oakview could be remodeled and be a player again (I'm not one of them). What I see and have seen for several years is a mall going through the dying process. We've seen this movie before. I wouldn't be surprised in the least bit for the whole loop area to be designated as blighted (if it isn't already) sooner rather than later. Serious talks of redevelopment will probably happen this decade.

I agree with all of that, but of course the developer got what they wanted out of it. Once the real estate investment people get the project built, they've made their nut on it and they are mainly done. That's part of the problem. Those front end development people don't really have a stake in the viability of a project after they get it built. They take their wad of cash and peace out. As we've seen with arenas, etc., the feasibility studies from consultants always come up rosy. Then, it's up to the actual mall owner, typically it seems another entity or a mall management company to make it work. If it doesn't work, they probably declare a loss on it and spin it off to another, lower tier, mall management company. Reminds me of what you see with hotels. Once a 4 star hotel has outlived its usefulness, or the area around it degrades, they spin it off from being a Hyatt to a Raddisson, then, it later becomes a Holiday Inn, until one day it's an econo lodge with prostitutes hanging out in the balconies and crack deals going on outside.

As for the 30 year mark, everything is disposable now. Look at ballparks and arenas. There was a time when there was a social contract involved with building these things. If the taxpayer was going to be expected to pony up to the cost of building a big civic project, we expected it was a 50-60 year investment. Now, we have arenas and ballparks built in the 1990's being called "functionally obsolete" and being imploded so some developer and certain civic and business leaders can make a windfall by building a new one, on the backs of the taxpayers, right down the street.

There is zero accountability from those at the top of the food chain who are always pushing new projects vs. utilizing what we already have because no one has ever held them accountable and they are often insulated from being exposed by the curtain of bureaucracy.

[Busguy2010]

Right, should have been more clear. I don't know if the owner or operator got what they wanted out of it in this period of time. 30 years total lifespan so far and really only 15 years of renaissance.

[Garrett]

I still think there are a few really ambitious and interesting ideas that could save Oakview if a developer wanted, but not as a full fledged retail space. Turning it into a massive themed entertainment center, for one.

A roller coaster in the dome would be really fun. Would have some decent height to it.

Bass Pro Shops redeveloped the Memphis Pyramid into a pretty cool space, and it’s about 300,000 sqft smaller than Oakview. You could do some really crazy things with 850,000 sqft if you get creative. The city should work with the owner of the mall to get something creative happening.

[PWL73316]

Something creative can be done with the space, absolutely. But I don't think the revenue you would get even from the best idea could compete very easily with the revenue from the rent of a full shopping mall. The rent at a full shopping mall isn't really in the cards, now, but that's what assumptions were built around.

[omaha79]

I still think there are a few really ambitious and interesting ideas that could save Oakview if a developer wanted, but not as a full fledged retail space. Turning it into a massive themed entertainment center, for one.

A roller coaster in the dome would be really fun. Would have some decent height to it.

Bass Pro Shops redeveloped the Memphis Pyramid into a pretty cool space, and it’s about 300,000 sqft smaller than Oakview. You could do some really crazy things with 850,000 sqft if you get creative. The city should work with the owner of the mall to get something creative happening.

The Pyramid was seen as an iconic local landmark near downtown Memphis. There was business and civic willpower to make it happen. I somewhat doubt there were be that kind of civic drive to save Oakview Mall considering it's really just another old school mall. Our track record in this city has been more along the lines of "ahhh heck. let it rot. someone will do something with it someday...or not. Whatever. Now, let's focus on the new development at 220th and Dodge! That's the future!"

[Garrett]

I still think there are a few really ambitious and interesting ideas that could save Oakview if a developer wanted, but not as a full fledged retail space. Turning it into a massive themed entertainment center, for one.

A roller coaster in the dome would be really fun. Would have some decent height to it.

Bass Pro Shops redeveloped the Memphis Pyramid into a pretty cool space, and it’s about 300,000 sqft smaller than Oakview. You could do some really crazy things with 850,000 sqft if you get creative. The city should work with the owner of the mall to get something creative happening.

The Pyramid was seen as an iconic local landmark near downtown Memphis. There was business and civic willpower to make it happen. I somewhat doubt there were be that kind of civic drive to save Oakview Mall considering it's really just another old school mall. Our track record in this city has been more along the lines of "ahhh heck. let it rot. someone will do something with it someday...or not. Whatever. Now, let's focus on the new development at 220th and Dodge! That's the future!"

Also valid. I'm just saying with such a massive space can be used creatively if there is the willpower. Oakview's current difficulty is that the thing it has aren't strong enough to overcome the location its in. If the developer was ambitious, it can become a place that overcomes its location by being an interesting destination.

[Busguy2010]

In all this speculation, I did look up the Oakview directory and it does still have a lot of the usual tenants that you expect at any mall. Having not been in there in over 10 years, I don't know what kind of "vibe" you get walking through there today. I just remember the last time I went, which would have been around 2008 thinking it kind of did remind me of Crossroads. Couldn't tell you if it was the outdated style/decor, or if there were empty storefronts, or just more local stores. I really don't remember. But the combination of many of the outer ring stores going through their own things and closing or changing hands, losing an anchor or two, and now there might be a change of hands to a more budget focused management company. It all just sounds like it is adding up.