Oak View Mall (144 & West Center Rd)

[Taco]

I really wish one of our local media outlets, which could invest the time and resources, would really get into uncovering the specific goings on with Oakview and its surrounding mousetrap. Jeff’s right when he stated “who isn’t concerned” regarding the future of Oakview (minus, I’d suspect, a few forum members here who have given up on it and or could care less, lol)..

There is a difference between reading the tea leaves and saying Oakview's future as an indoor mall is limited and "giving up on it". In fact, I think it's the opposite. Oakview is a massive parcel in a fairly central and high income level of our city and we need high-value development there to make our city work and fund our schools. In hopes of avoiding another Crossroads situation, the city should have been working with developers years ago to come up with a new concept for the area, yet I have seen nothing but sticking their head in the sand. Nationally and locally, there has been nothing to indicate the property will stop its death spiral. I'm not celebrating this, rather I would like to see proactive measures so this important area doesn't sit empty for the next decade.

[Busguy2010]

There is a difference between reading the tea leaves and saying Oakview's future as an indoor mall is limited and "giving up on it".

In hopes of avoiding another Crossroads situation, the city should have been working with developers years ago to come up with a new concept for the area...

Nationally and locally, there has been nothing to indicate the property will stop its death spiral. I'm not celebrating this, rather I would like to see proactive measures so this important area doesn't sit empty for the next decade.

Well said, and exactly how I feel about it.

But, as I said above, it does at least still carry some of the usual brands you'd expect... But so did Crossroads in 2006 and we know how that went.

I think it will be drawn out just as Crossroads was. Like I said, we've seen this movie several times before. If the aforementioned change of hands does happen, then that will be a marking point we can look back on in 5 years as the last straw for Oakview. At that point, it might be still be operating in some capacity, but would just be a sad semblance of it's former self. Call me a doom and gloomer, I'm just reading the tea leaves, as you said.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I really wish one of our local media outlets, which could invest the time and resources, would really get into uncovering the specific goings on with Oakview and its surrounding mousetrap. Jeff’s right when he stated “who isn’t concerned” regarding the future of Oakview (minus, I’d suspect, a few forum members here who have given up on it and or could care less, lol)..

There is a difference between reading the tea leaves and saying Oakview's future as an indoor mall is limited and "giving up on it". In fact, I think it's the opposite. Oakview is a massive parcel in a fairly central and high income level of our city and we need high-value development there to make our city work and fund our schools. In hopes of avoiding another Crossroads situation, the city should have been working with developers years ago to come up with a new concept for the area, yet I have seen nothing but sticking their head in the sand. Nationally and locally, there has been nothing to indicate the property will stop its death spiral. I'm not celebrating this, rather I would like to see proactive measures so this important area doesn't sit empty for the next decade.

I’d like to think that’s the opinion of all of us who care about what’s best for the Omaha metropolitan area..

There is, however, a dismissive attitude by some who have simply given up on caring about the development..similar to your burying your head in the sand comment about lack of a committed, visionary and caring plan for Oakview and the surrounding mousetrap..In this thread, I’ve been calling for that for years now by the way..

In any case-

Presently, we have intel from Jeff Beals that there is a buyer for the mall component who wants to drive rent down, and create a cheapened five and dime concept. This is concerning..and I hope beyond hope this is not in the cards..

Instead of using death spiral to describe the Oakview Mousetrap, I rather use verbiage that indicates “it’s next evolutionary life”. Which I believe it will have..as Trenton Magid (Grow Omaha) stated on the show last Saturday, we won’t see Oakview “going away” anytime soon..

I hope not..and we’ll see what comes...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[TitosBuritoBarn]

Agreed.

IMO, the best chance to save the mall is to develop the parking lots around it into mixed use/residential units. There are literally miles of parking around Oak View and the mall is no longer at a point where all those parking spots are going to be used. An influx of residents in that area might preserve the mall as a second-tier shopping center while also addressing affordable housing needs in the city.

I like the outside of the box thinking, but what is the target demographic for that? It would have to be affordable housing. I promise, there is no one buying into condos or townhomes that are located in a sea of parking lots next to a white dying wale of a mall structure that runs the risk of becoming even more blighted in the next 10 years. Just not a solid investment. It would have to be apartments and lower end at that. The luxury apartment people want ambiance. They want lake life. They want great clubhouses. Not a view off their balcony of a Sears label and an empty Village Inn.

Mixed use has to be created from scratch typically. The malls of yesteryear aren't conducive to being retrofitted into livable communities because they were built to serve one purpose: commerce. The only afterlife we've really seen is use as office parks (Center and less successfully Southroads).

I don't really have an answer for what Oak View will become, but if history is any indicator...it's not good.

It has been done before: https://goo.gl/maps/zMfXcnvXb5Y1Esry8 Yorktown Mall in Lombard, IL developed part of its outer parking lot and an adjacent out lot into two different apartment complexes. One is market rate while the other one, closer to the mall, is 55+.

Granted the mall in this example is not at the same level of decline as Oak View and the mix of businesses along the bisecting perimeter road is a little more resistant to the retail decline, but it wouldn't be an entirely new idea to try at Oak View.

I could have sworn I came across a mall that had done something similar in the Sacramento area but I can't find it now.

[Omaha Cowboy]

For additional context, this is from a fairly recent (and the latest) W-H article (10/26/20) when the current Mall owner, Nuveen, announced the mall component of the Oakview Mousetrap was up for sale-

“Omaha’s struggling Oak View Mall is looking for a new owner.

Chicago-based Nuveen, the enclosed shopping center’s current ownership group, has given up on an effort to put together a mixed-use plan to revive the property at 144th Street and West Center Road.

At about 860,000 square feet, the enclosed shopping center was built in 1991. About half of that is owned by Nuveen and was to go on the market Monday with no price listed, Ginsberg said.

Separately owned are the Dillard’s and J.C. Penney anchors. Those stores, and their parking lots, aren’t part of the sale. The Sears shell also is excluded, as is the ring road of stores around Oak View.”..

The complete W-H story link:

https://omaha.com/business/local/owners ... 058db.html

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[Cermak]

This mall should be closed and torn down. And replaced with housing, apartments and single family homes. I know right now in Omaha a shortage exists for homes available in the 200-300k range, build some at this location.

[jackowashington]

My brother works in retail management at the mall. It was sold over a month ago. They got rid of the entire old management staff and made the old administrative assistant the new General Manager. The new owner is a known slum lord and owns several dying malls across the United States. The changes seen in the last month since the new ownership has taken over are amazing. It is going downhill very quickly. At the rate it is going, it will be empty soon.

[ita]

My brother works in retail management at the mall. It was sold over a month ago. They got rid of the entire old management staff and made the old administrative assistant the new General Manager. The new owner is a known slum lord and owns several dying malls across the United States. The changes seen in the last month since the new ownership has taken over are amazing. It is going downhill very quickly. At the rate it is going, it will be empty soon.

I am not seeing anything in the County website about the sale. Do you know who the new owner is?

[jackowashington]

All of the retailers were sent memos that said Mike Kohen should be contacted as of 2/24/21. Google the name, the consensus among retailers is that the new owner is not a step up.

[omaha79]

My brother works in retail management at the mall. It was sold over a month ago. They got rid of the entire old management staff and made the old administrative assistant the new General Manager. The new owner is a known slum lord and owns several dying malls across the United States. The changes seen in the last month since the new ownership has taken over are amazing. It is going downhill very quickly. At the rate it is going, it will be empty soon.

Yikes.

[Brad]

Basically what we were talking about in Grow Omaha last weekend. Didn’t know the sale was official, but close.

[riceweb]

I personally think we have a glut of commercial real estate in this city, and with the after-effects of COVID-19 driving more consumers to ecommerce and with the age of the property, I think the best bet here is to bulldoze everything. Frankly, Oak View is now a blight on the neighborhood. But the problem is that private developers will never go through with the cost of demolition without incentives.

The city should acquire the entire SE corner of 144th and Center, demo it, regrade and regrid the area, upzone it to high heck, and slowly sell the lots to developers with minimal restrictions on land use, except for meeting minimum density requirements. I'd love to see a playbook like this in many of our blighted commercial areas: demo, regrid, upzone, sell, repeat.

There's an enormous infill opportunity along our most important corridors (entirety of 72nd St, the majority of Center St west of I-680, and the majority of Maple from 90th St westward, Miracle Hills, etc.), but that infill is unlikely given the suburban street layouts and cost of demo/regridding/etc. We would need pretty dramatic civic investment in our aging suburbs to modernize them. Maybe the Biden admin would be friendly with grant money if we lay out a serious urbanization vision.

[Omaha Cowboy]

It’ll be interesting when we find out official confirmation of this..

But the likelihood this is true, based on Jeff Beals intel, is growing by the day...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[ita]

Based on jackowashington's intel, I looked into Mike Kohen. I did find a Mike

Kohan

who owns Kohan Retail Investment Group. This guys m.o. fits the rumors being circulated. This group essentially purchases in distress malls and seemingly runs it into the ground with no maintenance, improvements, and failure to make payments on taxes and fines. He does find local retailers to take space, but otherwise, this is bad news bears for those who were hoping for some good change at Oakview, at least in the short term.

The Wiki page on Kohan Retail Investment Group covers its transactional history.

Here is a pretty good article about what we might expect, if this is in fact the group that bought Oakview.

No tax payments, no lights, no stores and no plan to make it better: Berkshire Mall owner Mike Kohan has frustrated towns all over the country

LANESBOROUGH — Look at the 27 malls owned by Mike Kohan and his Kohan Retail Investment Group and a pattern quickly emerges.

Kohan’s malls shut down intermittently and without warning — as was the case with the Berkshire Mall, which shut down for nearly a week and counting after it lost power. Despite Kohan’s protestations, the power remained off and the mall remained closed Wednesday.

At other properties, taxes and utility bills go unpaid. Sheriff’s sales and tax takings are scheduled. In time, redevelopment plans emerge, but with someone other than Kohan in the driver’s seat — much to the relief of local officials who still, even in the internet age, depend on real estate tax revenue generated by retailers.

[jackowashington]

That's the guy. The new management's email is krig properties (Kohan Retail Investment Group). My brother has worked with the new management. I believe they only have one employee in the management office. The number of employees could be hearsay, I just know that they did serious downsizing and kept the lowest ranking employee to run the mall. Too bad for Omaha, you can't find anything good on this guy anywhere. I know my brother's corporate office was less than thrilled when they found out the new owner after working with him in other locations.

[S.O.Boy]

I personally think we have a glut of commercial real estate in this city, and with the after-effects of COVID-19 driving more consumers to ecommerce and with the age of the property, I think the best bet here is to bulldoze everything. Frankly, Oak View is now a blight on the neighborhood. But the problem is that private developers will never go through with the cost of demolition without incentives.

The city should acquire the entire SE corner of 144th and Center, demo it, regrade and regrid the area, upzone it to high heck, and slowly sell the lots to developers with minimal restrictions on land use, except for meeting minimum density requirements. I'd love to see a playbook like this in many of our blighted commercial areas: demo, regrid, upzone, sell, repeat.

There's an enormous infill opportunity along our most important corridors (entirety of 72nd St, the majority of Center St west of I-680, and the majority of Maple from 90th St westward, Miracle Hills, etc.), but that infill is unlikely given the suburban street layouts and cost of demo/regridding/etc. We would need pretty dramatic civic investment in our aging suburbs to modernize them. Maybe the Biden admin would be friendly with grant money if we lay out a serious urbanization vision.

And NIMBY's will fight everything

[Brooklyn Decker]

Twenty bucks says there will be no less than 2 Mega Saver locations on the Oakview property after Kohan takes over.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Twenty bucks says there will be no less than 2 Mega Saver locations on the Oakview property after Kohan takes over.

Lol. Well, if we even got one Mega Saver at Oakview, it would be an amenity addition the Oakview Mousetrap lacks at present.. Of course, for the slumlord to accomplish this, the Mega Saver(s) would need to be located within the actual mall ...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[NEDodger]

Great. So the new owner is a cockroach who won't pay taxes on the property. Worst of both worlds.

[jackowashington]

I was looking at the mall website listing- doesn't look like it has been kept current. There are numerous stores listed that have already closed at Oakview. I ate lunch there two days ago and I noticed most of the food court was now gone. I also noticed it was extremely hot in the mall. I asked the employee while I was there and they told me the air was not working. Seems like the new owner is making good on his plan of no repairs.

[Cermak]

I was looking at the mall website listing- doesn't look like it has been kept current. There are numerous stores listed that have already closed at Oakview. I ate lunch there two days ago and I noticed most of the food court was now gone. I also noticed it was extremely hot in the mall. I asked the employee while I was there and they told me the air was not working. Seems like the new owner is making good on his plan of no repairs.

I haven’t been inside it for probably over a year. I will make a point to go inside soon. I’m sure it’s not good. Sad what happened to the place. That’s the big question now what do we do with all these empty malls, they are all over the country. Only a select few are able to survive.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I was looking at the mall website listing- doesn't look like it has been kept current.

Their Facebook page used to be more active, even during the pandemic in 2020, not as much activity lately. Don’t know if that goes hand in hand with the “strategy” of the new owner either..

I’ll have to take a visit inside the closed mall after I finally get my 2nd vaccination on April 17th. I’ve been avoiding pretty much everything enclosed (except the grocery store) for most of the past year..

Perhaps Mid-May I’ll venture into the Mall to get a feel for the place...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[omaha79]

I was looking at the mall website listing- doesn't look like it has been kept current.

Their Facebook page used to be more active, even during the pandemic in 2020, not as much activity lately. Don’t know if that goes hand in hand with the “strategy” of the new owner either..

I’ll have to take a visit inside the closed mall after I finally get my 2nd vaccination on April 17th. I’ve been avoiding pretty much everything enclosed (except the grocery store) for most of the past year..

Perhaps Mid-May I’ll venture into the Mall to get a feel for the place...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Here's a walkthrough recent to 6 months ago roughly.

[youtube][/youtube]

[Cermak]

Thanks for the video. You can tell it’s really not that old of a mall. They had a lot of momentum when it first opened and for maybe the first 10 years it was probably the best mall in Omaha. Then things started to slip a little, not sure exactly when, possibly when Von Maur opened at Westroads. And it’s been in serious somewhat rapid decline for at least the last 5 years. And had been declining slowly 10 or so years before that.

[omaha79]

Thanks for the video. You can tell it’s really not that old of a mall. They had a lot of momentum when it first opened and for maybe the first 10 years it was probably the best mall in Omaha. Then things started to slip a little, not sure exactly when, possibly when Von Maur opened at Westroads. And it’s been in serious somewhat rapid decline for at least the last 5 years. And had been declining slowly 10 or so years before that.

As with many other malls that fell by the wayside, I think things really started to slip for Oak View when Village Point opened in roughly 2004. It was the first chip in the armor. Best Buy moved out there and, unconnected, Hy-Vee closed around that time. Everything just started backsliding then and for the West O people, Oak View was seen less as the place to be compared to Village Point.

Somewhat less, but Shadow Lake opening in Papillion likely siphoned off some shoppers from Oak View as there was some overlap with stored like Dicks, JC Pennys, Old Navy, etc. Then, much later, I don't think that the Gretna Outlet Malls helped Oak View's fate either.

I see it more as death by a thousand cuts over a period of about 15 years culminating in Covid.

[Cermak]

Thanks for the video. You can tell it’s really not that old of a mall. They had a lot of momentum when it first opened and for maybe the first 10 years it was probably the best mall in Omaha. Then things started to slip a little, not sure exactly when, possibly when Von Maur opened at Westroads. And it’s been in serious somewhat rapid decline for at least the last 5 years. And had been declining slowly 10 or so years before that.

As with many other malls that fell by the wayside, I think things really started to slip for Oak View when Village Point opened in roughly 2004. It was the first chip in the armor. Best Buy moved out there and, unconnected, Hy-Vee closed around that time. Everything just started backsliding then and for the West O people, Oak View was seen less as the place to be compared to Village Point.

Somewhat less, but Shadow Lake opening in Papillion likely siphoned off some shoppers from Oak View as there was some overlap with stored like Dicks, JC Pennys, Old Navy, etc. Then, much later, I don't think that the Gretna Outlet Malls helped Oak View's fate either.

I see it more as death by a thousand cuts over a period of about 15 years culminating in Covid.

Agree, I always forget about Village Pointe I’m sure that had a huge effect on OakView and the new shopping centers opening up in Papillion and Gretna. OakView definitely lost some of its shine after those places opened. Now the question is what do we do with the place ?.

[riceweb]

Yikes, only $7.5m to purchase the mall. Eminent domain + bulldozing the site would have been a better use of resources. Now our real estate metrics are going to be all sorts of messed up: high vacancy rates, low rents, tons of sq ft of space available. Just an all-around mess that could have been solved by the city taking ownership. Would have been a better ROI than another streetcar study.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Yikes, only $7.5m to purchase the mall.

If the new slumlord has his way and drives the rent prices down..cheapening the mall component, the next sale number may be considerably less..

The only hope now for the Oakview area, is for the separately owned department stores to hang around..and to try and strengthen the offerings in the surrounding Mousetrap..The mall component may be dead in the water now. It just depends on if the heart of the area can be transferred away from it.. If I actually see Dillard’s uproot and leave, it’s all over..Basically for most all of the area- Mall and Mousetrap...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[S.O.Boy]

Yikes, only $7.5m to purchase the mall. Eminent domain + bulldozing the site would have been a better use of resources. Now our real estate metrics are going to be all sorts of messed up: high vacancy rates, low rents, tons of sq ft of space available. Just an all-around mess that could have been solved by the city taking ownership. Would have been a better ROI than another streetcar study.

In the hands of the right developer, it could have been a blank slate like the Crossroads is.

[Big E]

https://omaha.com/business/local/oak-vi ... -top-story

Blah blah blah. Oakview is gonna SUUUUUCK.

[Louie]

https://omaha.com/business/local/oak-vi ... -top-story

Blah blah blah. Oakview is gonna SUUUUUCK.

Too bad they didnt call out the new owners shoddy past.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Too bad they didnt call out the new owners shoddy past.

Now this would require some actual investigative journalism.. That ship sailed sometime around the last W-H ownership change and downsizing layoff escapade...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[omaha79]

Too bad they didnt call out the new owners shoddy past.

Now this would require some actual investigative journalism.. That ship sailed sometime around the last W-H ownership change and downsizing layoff escapade...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

and, I'm sure they are afraid of being accused of being anti-business and anti-free market.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Too bad they didnt call out the new owners shoddy past.

Now this would require some actual investigative journalism.. That ship sailed sometime around the last W-H ownership change and downsizing layoff escapade...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

and, I'm sure they are afraid of being accused of being anti-business and anti-free market.

Maybe..

But I think in the end, today, the W-H simply lacks the personal and resources they had in the past to provide a real investigative piece of journalism...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[damonhynes]

Too bad they didnt call out the new owners shoddy past.

Now this would require some actual investigative journalism.. That ship sailed sometime around the last W-H ownership change and downsizing layoff escapade...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

If there were 100K readers who demanded old-school journalism, they maybe they'd extend the effort to do some digging. But there aren't.

It's chicken/egg--are the media promulgating a narrative, or has the public attention-span and curiousity decreased to the point of irredeemability? You know my stance--it's both.

[damonhynes]

Too bad they didnt call out the new owners shoddy past.

Now this would require some actual investigative journalism.. That ship sailed sometime around the last W-H ownership change and downsizing layoff escapade...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

and, I'm sure they are afraid of being accused of being anti-business and anti-free market.

I think it's more nuanced, but not much.

Remember when Mercedes were kicking the tires on building a plant here? The W-H was all for it.

Now, hypothetically speaking--if Ford wanted to build an F-series gas-guzzler/tax-break line in Omaha, the Buffett/Lee W-H would be dead set against it. If it was govt-subsidized Green/Battery/Hydrogen, it'd be front-page news.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Too bad they didnt call out the new owners shoddy past.

Now this would require some actual investigative journalism.. That ship sailed sometime around the last W-H ownership change and downsizing layoff escapade...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

If there were 100K readers who demanded old-school journalism, they maybe they'd extend the effort to do some digging. But there aren't.

It's chicken/egg--are the media promulgating a narrative, or has the public attention-span and curiousity decreased to the point of irredeemability? You know my stance--it's both.

I think there is enough readers. And if you give them high quality content and raise the bar, they’ll crave it once again. The W-H basically serves the State of Nebraska and half of Iowa. There was a time back 15, 20, 30+ years ago, The Omaha W-H did investigative journalism at a much higher and more frequent level than the simple info pieces we’re used to reading today. When you cut staff and resources, that’s what you get..

It’s not a reader population issue imo.. Raise the bar/standard...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[Garrett]

Too bad they didnt call out the new owners shoddy past.

Now this would require some actual investigative journalism.. That ship sailed sometime around the last W-H ownership change and downsizing layoff escapade...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

If there were 100K readers who demanded old-school journalism, they maybe they'd extend the effort to do some digging. But there aren't.

It's chicken/egg--are the media promulgating a narrative, or has the public attention-span and curiousity decreased to the point of irredeemability? You know my stance--it's both.

I think there is enough readers. And if you give them high quality content and raise the bar, they’ll crave it once again. The W-H basically serves the State of Nebraska and half of Iowa. There was a time back 15, 20, 30+ years ago, The Omaha W-H did investigative journalism at a much higher and more frequent level than the simple info pieces we’re used to reading today. When you cut staff and resources, that’s what you get..

It’s not a reader population issue imo.. Raise the bar/standard...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Not anymore. News is online, 24/7, nationalized, and more and more opinion based. It's changing. Unless you're a New York Times level national publication, you're suffering. The OWH is just going through what almost every single print publication is going through. When a significant portion of the population of Nebraska and Iowa are getting their news from Fox News... well...

[Omaha Cowboy]

Too bad they didnt call out the new owners shoddy past.

Now this would require some actual investigative journalism.. That ship sailed sometime around the last W-H ownership change and downsizing layoff escapade...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

If there were 100K readers who demanded old-school journalism, they maybe they'd extend the effort to do some digging. But there aren't.

It's chicken/egg--are the media promulgating a narrative, or has the public attention-span and curiousity decreased to the point of irredeemability? You know my stance--it's both.

I think there is enough readers. And if you give them high quality content and raise the bar, they’ll crave it once again. The W-H basically serves the State of Nebraska and half of Iowa. There was a time back 15, 20, 30+ years ago, The Omaha W-H did investigative journalism at a much higher and more frequent level than the simple info pieces we’re used to reading today. When you cut staff and resources, that’s what you get..

It’s not a reader population issue imo.. Raise the bar/standard...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Not anymore. News is online, 24/7, nationalized, and more and more opinion based. It's changing. Unless you're a New York Times level national publication, you're suffering. The OWH is just going through what almost every single print publication is going through. When a significant portion of the population of Nebraska and Iowa are getting their news from Fox News... well...

I still disagree somewhat with what you’re saying here, but certainly not entirely. Because what you’re saying about the direction journalism regionally is going..is true..and it’s unfortunate..

But I’ll still say- Just because the news is on line, does not mean a regional newspaper, for example, cannot continue to provide true, investigative journalism..If they actually committed to providing it- even just once per month..The W-H was never a NY Times level paper in the first place..but go back, 10, 15, 20 and 30 years ago, a mid major level paper like the W-H was providing a more frequent, and a decent level of actual investigative journalism.. But you cut personnel and resources, and you get what we have today- 99% informational only articles and no real in-depth insight. Raise the bar though, and people will still crave it..

I was shocked last summer, the W-H actually had an in depth, investigative journalistic piece regarding the spring/summer unrest in Omaha after the George Floyd death and the shooting death locally during looting of James Scurlock. It was a great piece, well written, well received and a shockingly pleasant surprise. But, that was likely a one off. We’re lucky in Omaha if the W-H provides that type of quality and depth of coverage 2 times a year these days..

Yes, times are changing. But I think people’s desire for quality, in depth local journalism still stands..and if a newspaper is committed to providing it, readers will clamor for more of it. Again, raise the bar.. But cutting staff, resources and lowering the bar- well, you get ground chuck most of the time and people think it’s USDA Prime .. The dumbing down continues...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

[Omaha Cowboy]

And the saga of the Oakview Mousetrap and its future continues...

Ciao..LiO...Peace