Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[PWL73316]

Prioritizing cheap new build SFHs in the outer suburbs is the complete opposite of what Omaha should be striving for. That would actively hurt the streetcar and every other urban initiative in the city. Speaking frankly, we have plenty of Celebrity Homes for those that want that. The market is telling us it wants urban infill and amenities, not more sprawl. But when sprawl is the only option, that's what we get, to all of our detriment.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Disagree (edit- disagree in part, not completely)..

I’m all for urban infill and strengthening the core..and if new urban infill dwelling stock can be accommodated for first time owner affordability, then so be it and great..

In the end, the reality is, our metropolitan area is devoid of this stock. And it needs to be replenished. By the way, not everyone wants to live east of 72nd street.. Big picture, we need both-urban and suburban-..In order to accommodate accelerated population growth. Millennials don’t all want to rent..many also want to own. We want the entire metropolitan area to flourish too. Providing more flexible and affordable first time buying options goes a long way in accomplishing that end..

In any case, getting back to streetcar discussion, lol…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[Athomsfere]

Disagree (edit- disagree in part, not completely)..

I’m all for urban infill and strengthening the core..and if new urban infill dwelling stock can be accommodated for first time owner affordability, then so be it and great..

In the end, the reality is, our metropolitan area is devoid of this stock. And it needs to be replenished. By the way, not everyone wants to live east of 72nd street.. Big picture, we need both-urban and suburban-..In order to accommodate accelerated population growth. Millennials don’t all want to rent..many also want to own. We want the entire metropolitan area to flourish too. Providing more flexible and affordable first time buying options goes a long way in accomplishing that end..

In any case, getting back to streetcar discussion, lol…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

I'd still agree that "Prioritizing cheap new build [detached] SFHs" is correct, as well as everything you said.

Purchasable townhomes, duplex and quadplex units, condos of any type should be the priority, even out in Elkhorn.

But, there should be no red tape for detached SFH either.

If a plot is being driven by the city or a large developer: The denser development and missing middle type housing is best for the city in the long run.

A first time buyer should be able to choose between either style in their lifestyle and budget. If they want to have a private yard, a 2 car garage, to mow every week or two, and to drive everywhere, it should 100% be easy and possible. Just not easier and more affordable than if they wanted to share a lot with at least one other home, share property upkeep, and have a walkable block.

[Coyote]

Omaha Streetcar Authority holds open house for the community to ask questions



Tuesday evening the Omaha Streetcar Authority held an open house meeting looking to get community input and answer any questions the public might have. They also showed off the renderings for the project, from what the streetcar could look like to stops and potential route. The streetcar is projected to be up and running by 2026. They are currently in the early stages of the project, which means finalizing the streetcar route, identifying stop locations, assessing utilities, traffic and other considerations in the area, as well as creating a request for proposals for subsequent phases and procurement.



The street car renderings are for visual purposes and the finals vehicle design is not complete. Frequently asked questions were about how the project will be funded. The Street Car Authority said the streetcar should pay for itself by sparking new economic development and enhancing the value of what already exists along the route. Currently the street car has 22 stops planned, but that could change with the public's input. They mentioned routes are choosen in areas with major destinations and opportunities for economic development.

[stadsborgare]

I was at the open house, and one question I had was about adding more stops or adding a stop here or there, and the answer was they really don't want to add more stops than already proposed because a rider doesn't want it to take forever to get to their destination. That's understandable.

So then I wondered how far is the average person willing to walk to get to a stop, and I think it's about 4 blocks? Well, at about 5 blocks apart on this plan, 2 1/2 is about the most one would have to walk to the nearest stop. That seems alright.

The only question is where exactly to place each stop, not how many more they would add.

I was pretty satisfied with the map, the stops they proposed.

[ita]

I was at the open house, and one question I had was about adding more stops or adding a stop here or there, and the answer was they really don't want to add more stops than already proposed because a rider doesn't want it to take forever to get to their destination. That's understandable.

So then I wondered how far is the average person willing to walk to get to a stop, and I think it's about 4 blocks? Well, at about 5 blocks apart on this plan, 2 1/2 is about the most one would have to walk to the nearest stop. That seems alright.

The only question is where exactly to place each stop, not how many more they would add.

I was pretty satisfied with the map, the stops they proposed.

I agree with the spacing and number of stops. They are balancing speed and convenience.

They had a nice satellite image that was laid out on several tables that I wish was posted somewhere. It identified stops, possible bike lane alignment. It differed from previous plans and I can't remember exactly where all the stops were.

[Garrett]

I was at the open house, and one question I had was about adding more stops or adding a stop here or there, and the answer was they really don't want to add more stops than already proposed because a rider doesn't want it to take forever to get to their destination. That's understandable.

So then I wondered how far is the average person willing to walk to get to a stop, and I think it's about 4 blocks? Well, at about 5 blocks apart on this plan, 2 1/2 is about the most one would have to walk to the nearest stop. That seems alright.

The only question is where exactly to place each stop, not how many more they would add.

I was pretty satisfied with the map, the stops they proposed.

Generally people will walk a quarter mile for a bus and half a mile for rail a la subway or light rail. Streetcar would probably be closer to that quarter mile range.

[Louie]

I’ll be a little over a mile from the last stop and I’ll be happy to walk it.

[damonhynes]

Explain this to me: What will a streetcar do that a bus won't? What will a streetcar do that a battery-powered bus can't? Thanks.

It's a permanent system. The bus route can get cancelled or moved to a different street at any time. Why would I spend a 100 million on an apartment building next to a bus station that could be removed on a whim?

But why would bus service move away from such a high-density stop as an apartment complex? Further, while you're correct that a streetcar line can't be moved, it can be abandoned or the freq can be reduced.

[damonhynes]

Explain this to me: What will a streetcar do that a bus won't? What will a streetcar do that a battery-powered bus can't? Thanks.

It's a permanent system. The bus route can get cancelled or moved to a different street at any time. Why would I spend a 100 million on an apartment building next to a bus station that could be removed on a whim?

I would imagine lenders consider proximity to a rail stop vs bus stop differently as well.

I can't see that. I'd like to think that lenders are more mercenary than to fall for 'bright/shiny/new' but I could be wrong. ORBT hasn't moved the needle in terms of being spoke about among the target demo, it seems.

Also, pro tip tonight: read the Facebook comments with empathy.

?

[TheSeventhBrat]

Agree $200k homes aren’t really possible. Most new homes right now are at least $250k unfortunately.

There is still Celebrity and new to the market is DR Horton, who is the largest builder of homes in the country. They have begun building in Sarpy county in the last 1-2 years.

New Celebrity split entry homes are listing at $300K+, ranch $375K+, 2 stories $400K,

DR Horton is building some homes around Lake Cunningham. They're all $330K+.

[damonhynes]

Agree $200k homes aren’t really possible. Most new homes right now are at least $250k unfortunately.

There is still Celebrity and new to the market is DR Horton, who is the largest builder of homes in the country. They have begun building in Sarpy county in the last 1-2 years.

I'm shopping the Houston burbs--Montgomery and Brazoria Counties--and 215K USD seems to be the floor for a 3/2. (Pun intended--no basement!). There are also 'tiny house' developments of 900 ft² for 160-180.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

I think it speaks to unmanaged expectations that people still fresh in their careers should expect a starter home to be single family new build with a sizable yard. That’s not “starter” even if Celebrity has marketed it as such. Starter is something with a little patina, pleasant but not a dream home, and most of all, affordable.

Maybe a hot take but Jane Jacobs made a similar argument about the preservation of buildings.

[ita]

Explain this to me: What will a streetcar do that a bus won't? What will a streetcar do that a battery-powered bus can't? Thanks.

It's a permanent system. The bus route can get cancelled or moved to a different street at any time. Why would I spend a 100 million on an apartment building next to a bus station that could be removed on a whim?

I would imagine lenders consider proximity to a rail stop vs bus stop differently as well.

I can't see that. I'd like to think that lenders are more mercenary than to fall for 'bright/shiny/new' but I could be wrong. ORBT hasn't moved the needle in terms of being spoke about among the target demo, it seems.

Also, pro tip tonight: read the Facebook comments with empathy.

?

Street ars have shown to increase property values near a route by 10-25%. Rents are generally higher. That's just another key indicator for lenders to consider when evaluating loan requests. And I think makes decisions easier for lenders.

Regarding buses vs streetcars, I see buses as following development while fixed rail projects like the streetcar, promoting development. Should buses be able promote development, yes, that would be great. But I don't think we have seen that in American cities. Streetcars and other rail projects bring an increased intensity in development and investment that buses just don't. I would love to see regular buses do the same, but developers and investors and Americans just aren't excited about buses like they are about HSR, LRT, and streetcars.

[damonhynes]

Explain this to me: What will a streetcar do that a bus won't? What will a streetcar do that a battery-powered bus can't? Thanks.

It's a permanent system. The bus route can get cancelled or moved to a different street at any time. Why would I spend a 100 million on an apartment building next to a bus station that could be removed on a whim?

I would imagine lenders consider proximity to a rail stop vs bus stop differently as well.

I can't see that. I'd like to think that lenders are more mercenary than to fall for 'bright/shiny/new' but I could be wrong. ORBT hasn't moved the needle in terms of being spoke about among the target demo, it seems.

Also, pro tip tonight: read the Facebook comments with empathy.

?

Street ars have shown to increase property values near a route by 10-25%. Rents are generally higher. That's just another key indicator for lenders to consider when evaluating loan requests. And I think makes decisions easier for lenders.

Regarding buses vs streetcars, I see buses as following development while fixed rail projects like the streetcar, promoting development. Should buses be able promote development, yes, that would be great. But I don't think we have seen that in American cities. Streetcars and other rail projects bring an increased intensity in development and investment that buses just don't. I would love to see regular buses do the same, but developers and investors and Americans just aren't excited about buses like they are about HSR, LRT, and streetcars.

Interesting psychological observation there. Myself, as long as safety is taken as a given, I would care less what mode took me to work--A380, camel, whatever.

Another consideration is the fact that the above-ground catenary is expensive and just plain ugly. I've been to Seattle, Houston, and Toronto and seen this first-hand. None of the usual tastemakers and advocates seem to address this.

[Dusty]

Americans have a snob mentality towards buses. They turn their nose up and say yuck. We only have ourselves to blame with poor planning and creating an undesirable image. Buses can do everything streetcars can do if we plan it that way. Supporters of streetcars will constantly preach that buses don't bring economic development like streetcars do. This is a half truth. Streetcars themselves do not increase property values or attract new development. It's the design of a fixed route with permanent stations.

A fixed route shows the community the city is serious about transit along that corridor. it doesn't matter if the vehicle is a train, bus, or caravan of camels. I am constantly saying we need to raise our standards with what we expect out of our buses. Building bus only lanes, stops that are mixed use with short walk to amenities, encourage companies along bus routes to offer unlimited bus passes as a company perk, etc. No more building a bus station behind a grocery store where you can wait by the dumpster and homeless guy sleeping(72nd and Military). We build the stations right in the middle of the street. It forces cars to slow down and embraces a serious plan to make transit acceptable.

Buses are not the problem. it's a design issue. At worst, you build certain routes with buses with a fixed mindset. This gets you half way there upgrading to light rail. The route is set and stations are built. You just need to update the roads to rail. You are still reaching the same goal long term of creating a rail network. it's just built out in stages verses an all or nothing approach.

[ita]

Here's a info page about suggested stops: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... =1&title=1

Streetcar vehicle examples:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... ocument/p7

[TransitOriented]

Another consideration is the fact that the above-ground catenary is expensive and just plain ugly. I've been to Seattle, Houston, and Toronto and seen this first-hand. None of the usual tastemakers and advocates seem to address this.

They do. The Brookville model is a hybrid that contains batteries for sections without the wire. This is a relatively new technology. I mentioned it on the last page or so. OKC and Tempe use the Brookville.

I'd much prefer 100% low-floor though

[damonhynes]

Another consideration is the fact that the above-ground catenary is expensive and just plain ugly. I've been to Seattle, Houston, and Toronto and seen this first-hand. None of the usual tastemakers and advocates seem to address this.

They do. The Brookville model is a hybrid that contains batteries for sections without the wire. This is a relatively new technology. I mentioned it on the last page or so. OKC and Tempe use the Brookville.

I'd much prefer 100% low-floor though

That'll help! :-)

[TransitOriented]

Another consideration is the fact that the above-ground catenary is expensive and just plain ugly. I've been to Seattle, Houston, and Toronto and seen this first-hand. None of the usual tastemakers and advocates seem to address this.

They do. The Brookville model is a hybrid that contains batteries for sections without the wire. This is a relatively new technology. I mentioned it on the last page or so. OKC and Tempe use the Brookville.

I'd much prefer 100% low-floor though

That'll help! :-)

Here's a few pressers

https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail/veh ... car-system
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/li ... -contract/

[GenX]

I walked away loving where this is going even more!




I especially love that they ended up with something where we might keep the dedicated bike lane!

The only thing I have a concern with is the parking between the streetcar and the sidewalk. Yes, it’s supposed to be a shared roadway, but the riders have to walk between parked/parking vehicles to get to the streetcar, and surely a few cars are going to get their doors ripped off. Perhaps it would be better if the streetcar ran in a lane like the bike lane currently does - with the parking between the traffic and the bike/streetcar lane. I hope to see some of the alternatives.

Also, will the streetcar physically turn around, or just reverse direction? The route makes it seem like it reverses at each end with the way the lines merge. How will they handle that at each end? They’ll certainly need some sort of space at each end.

Oh, and a $20 donation to the forum says it’s going to be the red and black one in the upper left. That one appears in the previous rendering, which says to me that’s their preference.

[omahahawk]

Re: The red and black one

Does this one remind anybody else of one of Eddie Van Halen's Frankenstrats? That said, I dig it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstrat

[OmahaJaysCU]

No one confuse this statement with me trying to advocate for nostalgic design or anything, but weren’t the old streetcars yellow with white accents? Why not incorporate those colors into a paint scheme as a nod to the past?

[omahahawk]

That is an idea. I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) that these renderings are simply for example purposes and that streetcars can be ordered with custom paint jobs much like the way airlines get planes from the manufacturer. While I like all the examples, I too would like to see something a little more original but only if the timeline would allow.

[bricknose]

I walked away loving where this is going even more!




I especially love that they ended up with something where we might keep the dedicated bike lane!

The only thing I have a concern with is the parking between the streetcar and the sidewalk. Yes, it’s supposed to be a shared roadway, but the riders have to walk between parked/parking vehicles to get to the streetcar, and surely a few cars are going to get their doors ripped off. Perhaps it would be better if the streetcar ran in a lane like the bike lane currently does - with the parking between the traffic and the bike/streetcar lane. I hope to see some of the alternatives.

Also, will the streetcar physically turn around, or just reverse direction? The route makes it seem like it reverses at each end with the way the lines merge. How will they handle that at each end? They’ll certainly need some sort of space at each end.

Oh, and a $20 donation to the forum says it’s going to be the red and black one in the upper left. That one appears in the previous rendering, which says to me that’s their preference.

I was there and took some photos as well. The street car will have two tracks along Farnam, which means it either turns around or more likely the streetcar will reverse and “back” down the other track.

[Athomsfere]

On the east end, a turn around of sorts looks definite. It loops the block and comes back facing the other direction.

At the west end: Uncertain I'd say.

[Garrett]

It will probably just have the ability to go the other direction with conductor compartment on both ends. Most commuter style trains do that.

[bricknose]

And now there is a petition to cancel the streetcar project. Over 1,000 signatures as of Monday.

The stated reason is that it’s a financial waste. From the presentation this past Tuesday, the streetcar should be fully funded by TIF and the areas that benefit from the streetcar, no drain on the city’s budget.

Is a 1,000-signature petition impressive? How will that stand up to the agreement with Mutual of Omaha?

[Garrett]

It will mean absolutely nothing, because a 1,000 signature petition is nothing in something like this.

[PWL73316]

Doesn't matter at all, it could have 100,000 signatures and have the same impact.

Usually suspects opposed to all public goods even when it won't cost them a penny. Heard it might be good for "them" and I decided I hate it.

[Omaha Cowboy]

This petition really doesn’t warrant discussion..It’s simply bad form and ill will

A complete joke… And not anything to be taken seriously…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[Big E]

Doesn't matter at all, it could have 100,000 signatures and have the same impact.

Usually suspects opposed to all public goods even when it won't cost them a penny. Heard it might be good for "them" and I decided I hate it.

Absolutely guaranteed the people that signed that petition are 10,000% behind the religuous school voucher state tax credit legislation, though.

[ita]

Doesn't matter at all, it could have 100,000 signatures and have the same impact.

Usually suspects opposed to all public goods even when it won't cost them a penny. Heard it might be good for "them" and I decided I hate it.

Absolutely guaranteed the people that signed that petition are 10,000% behind the religuous school voucher state tax credit legislation, though.

This is the group that signed and organized the petition: https://www.netaxpayers.org/. The WOWT article describes them as a conservative watchdog group, and they're right. I found their position on LB753 for you (pulled from here: https://www.netaxpayers.org/wp-content/ ... ch2023.pdf):

LB 753: Linehan. To allow opportunity scholarship income tax credits for individuals contributing to organizations funding of poor students, so that they and their parents can take advantage of school choice at private and parochial schools and use such money for tuition and fees. Individuals, estates, and corporations could claim a nonrefundable income tax credit of up to 50% of their state income tax liability. The total amount of tax credits would begin at $25 million in 2024, with annual increases of 25% later on. A credit cap of $100,000 annually for individuals and $1 million for estates and trusts. This bill would take no dollars from public schools. The state teacher’s union, OP$, and leftist Open Sky Institute oppose the bill. GOOD BILL/ GENERAL FILE

[Big E]

Didn't even need to look it up to know that.

[Athomsfere]

Buses can do everything streetcars can do if we plan it that way.

I'd call that a partial truth. They can do maybe *95% or so, but there is a reason transit havens like Amsterdam choose streetcars over busses for their streetcar (tram) routes.

*Estimate I made up. No idea the ratio of "things one can do versus the other"

[ita]

Didn't even need to look it up to know that.

That's why you're a genius.

[Big E]

And stable.

[arjavrawal]

I walked away loving where this is going even more!




I especially love that they ended up with something where we might keep the dedicated bike lane!

The only thing I have a concern with is the parking between the streetcar and the sidewalk. Yes, it’s supposed to be a shared roadway, but the riders have to walk between parked/parking vehicles to get to the streetcar, and surely a few cars are going to get their doors ripped off. Perhaps it would be better if the streetcar ran in a lane like the bike lane currently does - with the parking between the traffic and the bike/streetcar lane. I hope to see some of the alternatives.

My understanding is that the business owners are the ones pushing to keep the street parking, but I could be wrong.

[ita]

The materials from the open house last week, so all the video presentations, handouts, posters and images are posted on this website: https://publicinput.com/osa-openhouse. Share it with friends and family and stuff, but I wanted to point out that at the bottom of the page, there are downloads, including three documents that show where they are planning the stops, currently. They were like 8 foot prints, so they are high res. Here's the direct links:

Mike Fahey to Harney

42nd to Turner

29th to 13th

[Louie]

Good selection of stop locations, imo.