Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[riceweb]

It just amazes me how many people are extremely short-sighted and stuck in their ways with things

I don't think that's a fair characterization of the issues folks have with the streetcar. In almost every major city, it's easy to spot problems with mass transit (slow and too many stops, vagrants, generally dirty, expensive to construct). There is a legitimate argument that this streetcar will fail to deliver on any of its promises, while potentially enriching landowners (that do not need any form of subsidies) or--if land value increases do not materialize--leaving taxpayers directly on the hook for all the capital improvements.

If you think the arguments against the streetcar are simply because of "boomers", YOU are the one that is short-sighted.

Now with all that said: we're moving forward, and I would like this line to be as successful as it can be. Just without the unnecessary personal attacks.

[stormchaser]

It just amazes me how many people are extremely short-sighted and stuck in their ways with things

If you think the arguments against the streetcar are simply because of "boomers", YOU are the one that is short-sighted.

Where did I say that they're against it simply "because they're boomers"??? I was using that as an example of the type of people who (IMO anyway) tend to be against many development projects (in my personal experience - see most TIF projects as a good example) and state they won't use it because they live in west Omaha and consequently in their mind nobody else will either. Regardless, that isn't/wasn't the point but thanks for trying to twist around what I was saying and pretending it's somehow a personal attack.

[stormchaser]

It just amazes me how many people are extremely short-sighted and stuck in their ways with things - and since they apparently won't use it, NOBODY will (if you ask them anyway).

The street car project is the perfect example IMO. The amount of development/redevelopment that will result from a project like this would easily pay for the project. Just because they're a "boomer" living in west-O and they've always gotten their way with things in life doesn't mean nobody else will use it and that the project is a terrible idea.

I realize I'm profiling here but still, these people just make me shake my head/cringe and it gets really old listening to them or reading things from them going on and on when it's clear they don't have any idea what they're even talking about.

Their newest talking point is basically "a bad idea gets even worse with expansion ideas into Council Bluffs"...sigh, based on what exactly??

We need to make a holiday, national "hug a city planner" day, or "Buy a planner a beer day". Because if you think it's bad from here... Imagine the |expletive| they have seen, heard and dealt with

I 100% agree - I can't even imagine.

[TransitOriented]

We need to make a holiday, national "hug a city planner" day, or "Buy a planner a beer day". Because if you think it's bad from here... Imagine the |expletive| they have seen, heard and dealt with

Plenty of bad ones that need to be slapped as well.

[TransitOriented]

It just amazes me how many people are extremely short-sighted and stuck in their ways with things

If you think the arguments against the streetcar are simply because of "boomers", YOU are the one that is short-sighted.

Where did I say that they're against it simply "because they're boomers"???

Right here:

Just because they're a "boomer" living in west-O and they've always gotten their way with things in life doesn't mean nobody else will use it and that the project is a terrible idea.

You specifically call out boomers living in a specific part of the city and claim they have always gotten their way.

[stormchaser]

It just amazes me how many people are extremely short-sighted and stuck in their ways with things

If you think the arguments against the streetcar are simply because of "boomers", YOU are the one that is short-sighted.

Where did I say that they're against it simply "because they're boomers"???

Right here:

Just because they're a "boomer" living in west-O and they've always gotten their way with things in life doesn't mean nobody else will use it and that the project is a terrible idea.

You specifically call out boomers living in a specific part of the city and claim they have always gotten their way.

Oh FFS, I didn't say they're against it "just because they're a boomer" as stated by riceweb and consequently what I replied to. AGAIN, in my experience, thats the demographic that tends to be against these projects - boomers in west-O who have no use for the Street Car, don't want their taxes to change, etc (in addition to being against many other projects - especially TIF because many people have no clue how TIF even works). Don't like it or agree? Cool - no offense intended with my post but It's MY opinion based on what I've seen/experienced. End of story. Moving on - this is literally the dumbest argument I've had in a LONG time and based on an apparent lack of basic reading comprehension.

And yes, many of the people from the boomer generation have gotten their way with things for a VERY long time because they are a giant percentage of people and consequently carry a lot of voting power, etc. If you can't see that, it's probably because you're a boomer or you're in complete denial of reality (or both).

[Garrett]

Spicy comments section today

[stormchaser]

Spicy comments section today

Yep - I used the term "boomer" (aka baby boomer generation) from west Omaha along with my opinion and **triggered** apparently.

[ita]

Just want to say, I am digging the possibility of stronger planning and connectivity between Omaha and CB. I am really looking forward to see how this pans out. Hopefully, CB gets their extension by the end of the decade.

[OmahaJaysCU]

Fwiw I was told there is already over $1 billion in development along the line that is yet to be announced. That’s spread across several projects. I 100% trust that this source would know. Whether or not it all materializes is a different thing, but thought it was worth sharing.

My assumption is this would involve some to be announced projects on the Old Market lot and Con Agra campus we’ve been speculating about on here. (Not the bs npdodger ones!). I’m also assuming this includes something at the med center.

If this is even 50% true I’d say that’s a very positive sign.

[Louie]

Fwiw I was told there is already over $1 billion in development along the line that is yet to be announced. That’s spread across several projects. I 100% trust that this source would know. Whether or not it all materializes is a different thing, but thought it was worth sharing.

My assumption is this would involve some to be announced projects on the Old Market lot and Con Agra campus we’ve been speculating about on here. (Not the bs npdodger ones!). I’m also assuming this includes something at the med center.

If this is even 50% true I’d say that’s a very positive sign.

RUMORS

[Garrett]

Fwiw I was told there is already over $1 billion in development along the line that is yet to be announced. That’s spread across several projects. I 100% trust that this source would know. Whether or not it all materializes is a different thing, but thought it was worth sharing.

My assumption is this would involve some to be announced projects on the Old Market lot and Con Agra campus we’ve been speculating about on here. (Not the bs npdodger ones!). I’m also assuming this includes something at the med center.

If this is even 50% true I’d say that’s a very positive sign.

I swear every time you post something like that my heart skips a little beat.

[TransitOriented]

I thought the 1 billion in Omaha development was pretty much a confirmed deal? There's renderings of the buildings and such.

[Dusty]

If we all agreed, it would make it a boring discussion. Now where did I set that pail of popcorn? HA! I do believe we all want the same thing. A strong and prosperous Omaha.

I feel like we go through this cycle with every big project....Convention center, Pedestrian bridge, BRT addition, etc
It doesn't matter what demographics are supporting or resisting. We need build projects that add value to improve quality of life and economic growth. Transit projects have always been a better return of investment over car projects.

As for the Council Bluffs stop, hasn't this always been the plan? Add the extension when ready? Adding a dense and mixed use development there would be wonderful addition for Council Bluffs. Maybe we can make a trade deal. We build a stop in Council Bluffs and they can give Carter Lake back to Nebraska.

[mcarch]

I don't fully understand why those who are against the streetcar project false constraints on it. Why can't it go past Saddle Creek due to flooding? We invented bridges long ago. How does it not support connectivity? It will be built along one of the densest corridors in the city that has yet to remotely reach its maximum potential. So its perfect for a starter route, which is something I think some also lose sight of. The initial route will start with a solid level of connectivity to both origins and destinations as compared to other corridors and can later be expanded as much as it is feasible to.

It's weird to me to say this project is like Jobbers Canyon. With Jobbers Canyon we lost both urban fabric and urban assets. With this project we stand to gain both (I do not agree our main library was a strong asset for modern Omaha, quite the contrary, we needed a new main branch library). The only similarity is that a corporate citizen is involved. Keep in mind that corporate citizen happiness also counts for something as they provide high paying jobs and this project doesn't solely benefit Mutual of Omaha. Even if Mutual of Omaha up and leaves for Chicago, future tenants of the building still stand to benefit from the streetcar.

The community needs to buy into a project for it to work, but the community is composed of both citizens and businesses. So, the most productive way is to approach the community to say "hey, what are your overall transit vision and goals" and then task planners to produce alternatives fulfilling a balance from the feedback from which to choose from. My understanding is that is what has happened here. I don't know if that's what you had in mind, but if you just straight up ask people to define better transit that is a wise use of money, you'll get as many answers as you have participants. Enhanced buses seem to be a common theme, but you'll also get those who want a comprehensive monorail system, and Tesla-fanatics who think we should be the next city to try out those Tesla tunnels.

For Connectivity past Saddle Creek (in my eyes not due to flooding) but another reason. To head West (to actually do what it is supposed to do - transport people, and not be a "we have one too staple"), it would need to either turn right (going west) at Saddle Creek and somehow get back onto Dodge Street - not sure how, jump a bridge? OR, it could continue West on Farnam Street. But I foresee if that were to happen a bunch of NIMBY complainers (residents) would put up a HUGE stink. It would then follow Farnam Street, past Warren's house, where it naturally meets Dodge Street. Then we'd have stops at major locations on Dodge with Park & Go Stations, all the way out to 204th Street.

So, stations at: UNO, 72nd, 84th, 90th, Regency Parkway/Westroads Mall, 108th, 120th, 132nd, 144th, 156th, 168th, 180th, 192nd, and 204th. All with either parking garages or lots. Then bus lines going north and south, like fish bones. The lightrail would also need to keep hours until shows/concerts/events downtown completed, so PAST 11pm instead of the current buses ending at 10pm.

I have read the study and have contacted the design team and have literally been told that they left out this flaw (in the flaw section) because another study is being done Federally to see if a westward expansion is needed. Notice, I said - Flaw... you can't create an end point and then expect someone else to fix it. It's like cutting off your foot and expecting the doctor to sew your toes back onto your ankle.

If I were to look at a flawed line after it was just built and I needed to add onto it at XXX cost and it would cost more to fix it, I would say... nope, not needed. This is why it is important to do it right the first time and study the WHOLE thing at once and not rely on different studies.

A great example (but its backwards): a development in West Omaha was stopped by the planning department because there were 2 phases. The traffic study only took into account the whole picture of ALL the traffic entering/exiting through phase 1 (1 entrance/exit) while phase 2 wasn't going to be done for 10-20 years later. I asked the board, was there a traffic study done just on Phase 1 and if it could hold the traffic. The answer was No, and it came back that it could not hold all the traffic.

[Athomsfere]

Fwiw I was told there is already over $1 billion in development along the line that is yet to be announced. That’s spread across several projects. I 100% trust that this source would know. Whether or not it all materializes is a different thing, but thought it was worth sharing.

My assumption is this would involve some to be announced projects on the Old Market lot and Con Agra campus we’ve been speculating about on here. (Not the bs npdodger ones!). I’m also assuming this includes something at the med center.

If this is even 50% true I’d say that’s a very positive sign.

I swear every time you post something like that my heart skips a little beat.

Being Omaha, I've learned to try and keep an open mind that information is 100% true, but possibly in the worst imaginable way.

Like, whole foods is moving into a lot with 200 apartments above it. And also the worlds largest parking garage below it. Total height, 1,500 feet.

I can't be disappointed this way

/s

[iamjacobm]

We need to make a holiday, national "hug a city planner" day, or "Buy a planner a beer day". Because if you think it's bad from here... Imagine the |expletive| they have seen, heard and dealt with

Plenty of bad ones that need to be slapped as well.

Haha I enjoy our planner friends here, but yes some cities give them way too much control.

[Garrett]

We need to make a holiday, national "hug a city planner" day, or "Buy a planner a beer day". Because if you think it's bad from here... Imagine the |expletive| they have seen, heard and dealt with

Plenty of bad ones that need to be slapped as well.

Haha I enjoy our planner friends here, but yes some cities give them way too much control.

Planners haven’t had a lot of power since the 60s haha

[Garrett]

I don't fully understand why those who are against the streetcar project false constraints on it. Why can't it go past Saddle Creek due to flooding? We invented bridges long ago. How does it not support connectivity? It will be built along one of the densest corridors in the city that has yet to remotely reach its maximum potential. So its perfect for a starter route, which is something I think some also lose sight of. The initial route will start with a solid level of connectivity to both origins and destinations as compared to other corridors and can later be expanded as much as it is feasible to.

It's weird to me to say this project is like Jobbers Canyon. With Jobbers Canyon we lost both urban fabric and urban assets. With this project we stand to gain both (I do not agree our main library was a strong asset for modern Omaha, quite the contrary, we needed a new main branch library). The only similarity is that a corporate citizen is involved. Keep in mind that corporate citizen happiness also counts for something as they provide high paying jobs and this project doesn't solely benefit Mutual of Omaha. Even if Mutual of Omaha up and leaves for Chicago, future tenants of the building still stand to benefit from the streetcar.

The community needs to buy into a project for it to work, but the community is composed of both citizens and businesses. So, the most productive way is to approach the community to say "hey, what are your overall transit vision and goals" and then task planners to produce alternatives fulfilling a balance from the feedback from which to choose from. My understanding is that is what has happened here. I don't know if that's what you had in mind, but if you just straight up ask people to define better transit that is a wise use of money, you'll get as many answers as you have participants. Enhanced buses seem to be a common theme, but you'll also get those who want a comprehensive monorail system, and Tesla-fanatics who think we should be the next city to try out those Tesla tunnels.

For Connectivity past Saddle Creek (in my eyes not due to flooding) but another reason. To head West (to actually do what it is supposed to do - transport people, and not be a "we have one too staple"), it would need to either turn right (going west) at Saddle Creek and somehow get back onto Dodge Street - not sure how, jump a bridge? OR, it could continue West on Farnam Street. But I foresee if that were to happen a bunch of NIMBY complainers (residents) would put up a HUGE stink. It would then follow Farnam Street, past Warren's house, where it naturally meets Dodge Street. Then we'd have stops at major locations on Dodge with Park & Go Stations, all the way out to 204th Street.

So, stations at: UNO, 72nd, 84th, 90th, Regency Parkway/Westroads Mall, 108th, 120th, 132nd, 144th, 156th, 168th, 180th, 192nd, and 204th. All with either parking garages or lots. Then bus lines going north and south, like fish bones. The lightrail would also need to keep hours until shows/concerts/events downtown completed, so PAST 11pm instead of the current buses ending at 10pm.

I have read the study and have contacted the design team and have literally been told that they left out this flaw (in the flaw section) because another study is being done Federally to see if a westward expansion is needed. Notice, I said - Flaw... you can't create an end point and then expect someone else to fix it. It's like cutting off your foot and expecting the doctor to sew your toes back onto your ankle.

If I were to look at a flawed line after it was just built and I needed to add onto it at XXX cost and it would cost more to fix it, I would say... nope, not needed. This is why it is important to do it right the first time and study the WHOLE thing at once and not rely on different studies.

A great example (but its backwards): a development in West Omaha was stopped by the planning department because there were 2 phases. The traffic study only took into account the whole picture of ALL the traffic entering/exiting through phase 1 (1 entrance/exit) while phase 2 wasn't going to be done for 10-20 years later. I asked the board, was there a traffic study done just on Phase 1 and if it could hold the traffic. The answer was No, and it came back that it could not hold all the traffic.

Ok, so two different points here.

First, a streetcar system should never be mixed with a long distance light rail system as you're describing. Mixing long distance stations with mile gaps and a bunch of local stations with 4 block gaps is wildly inefficient and wouldn't end up being a good service, because once your trains reach 42nd street it will be a solid extra 20 minutes to reach downtown.

Second, if Omaha ever does develop a light rail system into the suburbs, especially one with a spine of bus lines as you're describing, then surrounding it with parking lots is the absolute worst thing you can do with the land use. You're basically just further subsidizing car use and not using some of the most valuable land in the city for productive uses.

[OmahaJaysCU]

I thought the 1 billion in Omaha development was pretty much a confirmed deal? There's renderings of the buildings and such.

There is plenty of pending on the corridor but these were specifically pointed out to me as not public. So that would exclude things like the new garage/apt building in Blackstone, mutual tower, Brickline apartments, the Trio, etc.

Like I said, even if this is half right, it’s significant! Track isn’t even in the ground yet. Barring anything unforeseen economy wise I think we’re in for a pretty exciting couple years.

[Dusty]

Ok, so two different points here.

First, a streetcar system should never be mixed with a long distance light rail system as you're describing. Mixing long distance stations with mile gaps and a bunch of local stations with 4 block gaps is wildly inefficient and wouldn't end up being a good service, because once your trains reach 42nd street it will be a solid extra 20 minutes to reach downtown.

Second, if Omaha ever does develop a light rail system into the suburbs, especially one with a spine of bus lines as you're describing, then surrounding it with parking lots is the absolute worst thing you can do with the land use. You're basically just further subsidizing car use and not using some of the most valuable land in the city for productive uses.

I think a lot of people assume the streetcar is meant move across town like the buses do. Maybe because our original streetcars worked in a mass connected network like our buses do now. I'll admit, I was against the corridor in the beginning because I thought it was intended to be a quick train to go from point A to point B. Garrett explained it well by calling it a people mover over an urbanized area. I wish the city explained this better as many are still thinking it's just another bus line that moves on a rail.

My best comparison would be airport terminals. You fly into terminal A (Blackstone). You have a good time, but want to check out a restaurant in terminal B (Midtown Crossing). So you hop on a train with a ton of people. This train is not super fast and the distance between terminals is not far. If you have time you can go to terminal C (Old Market). This is why Council Bluffs wants part of the action. They want to be a terminal of amenities for people to enjoy. This explains all the development of infill projects along the corridor.

[almighty_tuna]

Garrett explained it well by calling it a people mover over an urbanized area. I wish the city explained this better as many are still thinking it's just another bus line that moves on a rail.

My best comparison would be airport terminals. You fly into terminal A (Blackstone). You have a good time, but want to check out a restaurant in terminal B (Midtown Crossing). So you hop on a train with a ton of people. This train is not super fast and the distance between terminals is not far. If you have time you can go to terminal C (Old Market).

Excellent ELI5. Wish this was how the city explained it from the start.

[ita]

I thought the 1 billion in Omaha development was pretty much a confirmed deal? There's renderings of the buildings and such.

There is plenty of pending on the corridor but these were specifically pointed out to me as not public. So that would exclude things like the new garage/apt building in Blackstone, mutual tower, Brickline apartments, the Trio, etc.

Like I said, even if this is half right, it’s significant! Track isn’t even in the ground yet. Barring anything unforeseen economy wise I think we’re in for a pretty exciting couple years.

I really hope that we start seeing some of these undisclosed projects along the route, foremost because I am personally excited about it, but also to help others who are neutral or opposed to the project, particularly from a financial standpoint, to be more open about it. If there really is $500 million to $1 billion already in play, aside from what has been announced already, that accounts for 25-50% of the development in the corridor that Municap projected was needed for the streetcar to be viable/pay itself back and then some. That projection was based on a 15 year timeline.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

We need to make a holiday, national "hug a city planner" day, or "Buy a planner a beer day". Because if you think it's bad from here... Imagine the |expletive| they have seen, heard and dealt with

I 100% agree - I can't even imagine.

We often have sessions at our conferences dedicated to how to navigate through such things. It's certainly not the fun part of the job, but comes with the territory. I've had a council member in a small town convinced I was an agent from the Obama administration who had come to tell them what to do and raise their taxes to do it. In reality my reason for being there was quite the opposite.

Sometimes you get people who want your help to accomplish really odd stuff like a program to buy everyone a skinny, moped-like car as an alternative to widening roadways or draft a protocol for how to replace city council members should one tragically parish in a natural disaster. Or sometimes they want help with really disheartening stuff like a strategy to keep Mexican immigrants from settling in their town.

Though I'd reckon most planners would agree what's worse is to go through a thoughtful and extensive planning process only to see the plans sit on the shelf.

[Louie]

Though I'd reckon most planners would agree what's worse is to go through a thoughtful and extensive planning process only to see the plans sit on the shelf.

I'm guessing this is probably a pretty common occurrence.

[Garrett]

Ok, so two different points here.

First, a streetcar system should never be mixed with a long distance light rail system as you're describing. Mixing long distance stations with mile gaps and a bunch of local stations with 4 block gaps is wildly inefficient and wouldn't end up being a good service, because once your trains reach 42nd street it will be a solid extra 20 minutes to reach downtown.

Second, if Omaha ever does develop a light rail system into the suburbs, especially one with a spine of bus lines as you're describing, then surrounding it with parking lots is the absolute worst thing you can do with the land use. You're basically just further subsidizing car use and not using some of the most valuable land in the city for productive uses.

I think a lot of people assume the streetcar is meant move across town like the buses do. Maybe because our original streetcars worked in a mass connected network like our buses do now. I'll admit, I was against the corridor in the beginning because I thought it was intended to be a quick train to go from point A to point B. Garrett explained it well by calling it a people mover over an urbanized area. I wish the city explained this better as many are still thinking it's just another bus line that moves on a rail.

My best comparison would be airport terminals. You fly into terminal A (Blackstone). You have a good time, but want to check out a restaurant in terminal B (Midtown Crossing). So you hop on a train with a ton of people. This train is not super fast and the distance between terminals is not far. If you have time you can go to terminal C (Old Market). This is why Council Bluffs wants part of the action. They want to be a terminal of amenities for people to enjoy. This explains all the development of infill projects along the corridor.

An impressive metaphor you just threw out there. I'll be sure to steal it for my grad school work haha

[TitosBuritoBarn]

I don't fully understand why those who are against the streetcar project false constraints on it. Why can't it go past Saddle Creek due to flooding? We invented bridges long ago. How does it not support connectivity? It will be built along one of the densest corridors in the city that has yet to remotely reach its maximum potential. So its perfect for a starter route, which is something I think some also lose sight of. The initial route will start with a solid level of connectivity to both origins and destinations as compared to other corridors and can later be expanded as much as it is feasible to.

It's weird to me to say this project is like Jobbers Canyon. With Jobbers Canyon we lost both urban fabric and urban assets. With this project we stand to gain both (I do not agree our main library was a strong asset for modern Omaha, quite the contrary, we needed a new main branch library). The only similarity is that a corporate citizen is involved. Keep in mind that corporate citizen happiness also counts for something as they provide high paying jobs and this project doesn't solely benefit Mutual of Omaha. Even if Mutual of Omaha up and leaves for Chicago, future tenants of the building still stand to benefit from the streetcar.

The community needs to buy into a project for it to work, but the community is composed of both citizens and businesses. So, the most productive way is to approach the community to say "hey, what are your overall transit vision and goals" and then task planners to produce alternatives fulfilling a balance from the feedback from which to choose from. My understanding is that is what has happened here. I don't know if that's what you had in mind, but if you just straight up ask people to define better transit that is a wise use of money, you'll get as many answers as you have participants. Enhanced buses seem to be a common theme, but you'll also get those who want a comprehensive monorail system, and Tesla-fanatics who think we should be the next city to try out those Tesla tunnels.

For Connectivity past Saddle Creek (in my eyes not due to flooding) but another reason. To head West (to actually do what it is supposed to do - transport people, and not be a "we have one too staple"), it would need to either turn right (going west) at Saddle Creek and somehow get back onto Dodge Street - not sure how, jump a bridge? OR, it could continue West on Farnam Street. But I foresee if that were to happen a bunch of NIMBY complainers (residents) would put up a HUGE stink. It would then follow Farnam Street, past Warren's house, where it naturally meets Dodge Street. Then we'd have stops at major locations on Dodge with Park & Go Stations, all the way out to 204th Street.

So, stations at: UNO, 72nd, 84th, 90th, Regency Parkway/Westroads Mall, 108th, 120th, 132nd, 144th, 156th, 168th, 180th, 192nd, and 204th. All with either parking garages or lots. Then bus lines going north and south, like fish bones. The lightrail would also need to keep hours until shows/concerts/events downtown completed, so PAST 11pm instead of the current buses ending at 10pm.

I have read the study and have contacted the design team and have literally been told that they left out this flaw (in the flaw section) because another study is being done Federally to see if a westward expansion is needed. Notice, I said - Flaw... you can't create an end point and then expect someone else to fix it. It's like cutting off your foot and expecting the doctor to sew your toes back onto your ankle.

If I were to look at a flawed line after it was just built and I needed to add onto it at XXX cost and it would cost more to fix it, I would say... nope, not needed. This is why it is important to do it right the first time and study the WHOLE thing at once and not rely on different studies.

A great example (but its backwards): a development in West Omaha was stopped by the planning department because there were 2 phases. The traffic study only took into account the whole picture of ALL the traffic entering/exiting through phase 1 (1 entrance/exit) while phase 2 wasn't going to be done for 10-20 years later. I asked the board, was there a traffic study done just on Phase 1 and if it could hold the traffic. The answer was No, and it came back that it could not hold all the traffic.

Ok, so two different points here.

First, a streetcar system should never be mixed with a long distance light rail system as you're describing. Mixing long distance stations with mile gaps and a bunch of local stations with 4 block gaps is wildly inefficient and wouldn't end up being a good service, because once your trains reach 42nd street it will be a solid extra 20 minutes to reach downtown.

Second, if Omaha ever does develop a light rail system into the suburbs, especially one with a spine of bus lines as you're describing, then surrounding it with parking lots is the absolute worst thing you can do with the land use. You're basically just further subsidizing car use and not using some of the most valuable land in the city for productive uses.

Very good points here, Garrett. I'll add that we need to think of transit expansion first in terms of who is most likely to ride it and benefit from it. West Omaha is likely the last part of town I would look to expand transit to. It would be best to build out a usable network in the core and vicinity first where the low hanging fruit is before trying to expand westward where the higher hanging fruit is.

To that end, I'd look at expanding south first with a line that goes down 10th/13th and terminates at the zoo. This would hit a lot of the denser residential developments south of downtown around the Dahlman area, the commercial/entertainment corridor on 13th between William and Center, and end at a tourist attraction. An expansion of the original line northbound past Saddle Creek into Dundee and the proposed CB line would be solid secondary expansions.

[stormchaser]

Very good points here, Garrett. I'll add that we need to think of transit expansion first in terms of who is most likely to ride it and benefit from it. West Omaha is likely the last part of town I would look to expand transit to. It would be best to build out a usable network in the core and vicinity first where the low hanging fruit is before trying to expand westward where the higher hanging fruit is.

To that end, I'd look at expanding south first with a line that goes down 10th/13th and terminates at the zoo. This would hit a lot of the denser residential developments south of downtown around the Dahlman area, the commercial/entertainment corridor on 13th between William and Center, and end at a tourist attraction. An expansion of the original line northbound past Saddle Creek into Dundee and the proposed CB line would be solid secondary expansions.

I agree with this. In addition to people who live along the route, people visiting Omaha will likely utilize the streetcar a fair amount and consequently it only makes sense to expand it south to the zoo. I'm sure a decent amount of people visiting the zoo wouldn't mind visiting downtown (and vice versa) but a lot of people from outside of Omaha probably don't because they don't want to mess with trying to find parking, etc, etc. This will simplify things for them...

[Louie]

Very good points here, Garrett. I'll add that we need to think of transit expansion first in terms of who is most likely to ride it and benefit from it. West Omaha is likely the last part of town I would look to expand transit to. It would be best to build out a usable network in the core and vicinity first where the low hanging fruit is before trying to expand westward where the higher hanging fruit is.

To that end, I'd look at expanding south first with a line that goes down 10th/13th and terminates at the zoo. This would hit a lot of the denser residential developments south of downtown around the Dahlman area, the commercial/entertainment corridor on 13th between William and Center, and end at a tourist attraction. An expansion of the original line northbound past Saddle Creek into Dundee and the proposed CB line would be solid secondary expansions.

I agree with this. In addition to people who live along the route, people visiting Omaha will likely utilize the streetcar a fair amount and consequently it only makes sense to expand it south to the zoo. I'm sure a decent amount of people visiting the zoo wouldn't mind visiting downtown (and vice versa) but a lot of people from outside of Omaha probably don't because they don't want to mess with trying to find parking, etc, etc. This will simplify things for them...

13th St is quite wide for it's traffic. I realize it's a truck route, but handling a streetcar on it wouldn't be a huge stretch.

[Dusty]

My best comparison would be airport terminals. You fly into terminal A (Blackstone). You have a good time, but want to check out a restaurant in terminal B (Midtown Crossing). So you hop on a train with a ton of people. This train is not super fast and the distance between terminals is not far. If you have time you can go to terminal C (Old Market). This is why Council Bluffs wants part of the action. They want to be a terminal of amenities for people to enjoy. This explains all the development of infill projects along the corridor.

An impressive metaphor you just threw out there. I'll be sure to steal it for my grad school work haha

Yes, please do! For some reason Atlanta's airport came to mind. A train line built in a linear path. Multiple concourses/terminals that all bring their own vibe and variety of businesses. Yes, I could technically walk to the next terminal, but riding the train is fun and convenient. it's very relatable with our streetcar project.

[Dusty]

To that end, I'd look at expanding south first with a line that goes down 10th/13th and terminates at the zoo. This would hit a lot of the denser residential developments south of downtown around the Dahlman area, the commercial/entertainment corridor on 13th between William and Center, and end at a tourist attraction. An expansion of the original line northbound past Saddle Creek into Dundee and the proposed CB line would be solid secondary expansions.

I agree the logical expansion line should be 10th/13th to Zoo and Lauritzen Gardens. The corridor took a major hit when Rosenblatt was torn down. It's recently been trying to claw its way back. A streetcar line could help revitalize this.

The other option is to the airport. The only way I see this a viable option is work a deal with Iowa to give Carter Lake back to Nebraska. It was offered in the past, but Nebraska declined. This would enable us to redevelop Carter Lake industrial area to mixed use and extend downtown to the airport. If that miracle could happen, a streetcar could work here.

[S.O.Boy]

To that end, I'd look at expanding south first with a line that goes down 10th/13th and terminates at the zoo. This would hit a lot of the denser residential developments south of downtown around the Dahlman area, the commercial/entertainment corridor on 13th between William and Center, and end at a tourist attraction. An expansion of the original line northbound past Saddle Creek into Dundee and the proposed CB line would be solid secondary expansions.

I agree the logical expansion line should be 10th/13th to Zoo and Lauritzen Gardens. The corridor took a major hit when Rosenblatt was torn down. It's recently been trying to claw its way back. A streetcar line could help revitalize this.

The other option is to the airport. The only way I see this a viable option is work a deal with Iowa to give Carter Lake back to Nebraska. It was offered in the past, but Nebraska declined. This would enable us to redevelop Carter Lake industrial area to mixed use and extend downtown to the airport. If that miracle could happen, a streetcar could work here.

On the airport extension, I thought they showed it going through North Omaha and connecting on the North end of the airport.

In my opinion that really changes the dynamics of the streetcar.

[Dusty]

The other option is to the airport. The only way I see this a viable option is work a deal with Iowa to give Carter Lake back to Nebraska. It was offered in the past, but Nebraska declined. This would enable us to redevelop Carter Lake industrial area to mixed use and extend downtown to the airport. If that miracle could happen, a streetcar could work here.

On the airport extension, I thought they showed it going through North Omaha and connecting on the North end of the airport.

In my opinion that really changes the dynamics of the streetcar.

I wouldn't get your hopes up with an airport extension. You would have to keep that intense density all the way through the corridor. North Omaha (16th Street) has a lot of residential homes along the path. I proposed Carter Lake as a Hail Mary of plays because it's the shorter distance and less developed. We know both are long shots. Plus, a modern streetcar moves fairly slow.

We would be better off to rely on buses for now. Who knows? Maybe this will be the project will bust out that double decker bus.

[stormchaser]

I also feel like it would make sense to expand the line over to UNO/Aksarben/Crossroads area (at least eventually)...

[Garrett]

If you've seen this map before, it's a great look at how the system looked in 1927. I also managed to find an 1898 map of Council Bluffs, but it's much harder to tell on the map where the streetcar lines are.

Vintage OPL Streetcar Map

1898 Council Bluffs city Map

I decided to make a version of it on Google Maps to help see the current context of it, with the Council Bluffs segment being an approximate guess.

1927 Omaha Streetcar Google Map

It's particularly interesting to compare it to the hypothetical expansions plans that streetcar authority lined out a few months ago. The Leavenworth-Shirley line is almost identical. You can even see in the width of the right of way that this corridor used to carry streetcars, as Woolworth, for example, gets wider just at the point it carries the line.

Modern Streetcar Map

[Athomsfere]

Omaha had cable cars too? I missed that fact somehow, but it makes sense.

[thenewguy]

that is completely awesome. could you even imagine if they had not removed all those? The development and density possibility blows my mind...

[TitosBuritoBarn]

I was curious about the Omaha cable cars too and came across this website with some pretty solid information collected from newspaper articles from that time:

https://www.cable-car-guy.com/html/ccomaha.html

Pretty cool, but not quite as cool as the Sioux City Elevated Train from around the same time period, pre-dating as well as being the inspiration for the 'L' trains in Chicago:



https://www.virtualcollections.siouxcit ... rg/station

[ita]

that is completely awesome. could you even imagine if they had not removed all those? The development and density possibility blows my mind...

To some extent, we do see results in density/development in East, pre-WWII Omaha. We have/had nice mixed use, decently dense neighborhoods built around historic streetcars. North Omaha History cites that of the 450 apartment buildings in North Omaha built before 1962, less than 125 still stand. Again per, North Omaha History, US-75 construction resulted in demolishing 2000 buildings in North Omaha. So, we not only removed a possible transit system that could have continued to support/promote dense development, but then destroyed the fabric of urban Omaha for the personal vehicle movement.

[Omaha Cowboy]

From today’s Omaha Streetcar newsletter email..A nice read-

“Creating a Transit Culture.

Ever since the end of World War II, Omaha has been built for cars. Today, it’s hard for many Omahans to see themselves without a car.

And yet for people who live, work or visit the midtown and downtown areas of the city, the addition of the streetcar to Omaha's transit system means they’ll be closer to having to rely less on cars to get them to where they need to go.

This may mean one less car per household. It may mean still owning the same number of cars, but using them less. Or, driving them fewer miles per trip. The streetcar helps us create more of a transit culture in our community. What would a transit culture look like here? Some examples:

People think of public transportation as a viable option rather than not considering it at all
Bus routes are given equal weight as parking when planning and communicating events in the urban core
Businesses feature parking and transit routes on their “visit us” website pages
A community with more transportation options

Creating a transit culture is good for our entire region. Streetcar expansions would give transit access to more people in our community. At our last Omaha Streetcar Authority board meeting, the board of directors unanimously agreed to work with the City of Council Bluffs as city leaders develop their own streetcar plan.

How Kansas City created a transit culture

We talked with transit consultant David Johnson, who was instrumental in ushering Kansas City’s streetcar from idea to reality. He noted that similar to Omaha, Kansas City did not have much of a transit culture before the streetcar was built.

“”We had to create it from scratch, and we did that with a well planned and executed project,” he said.

Despite initial skepticism in the planning stages from some detractors, he characterizes the streetcar now as “universally beloved.””…

Ciao..LiO…Peace