Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[nebport5]

I don’t think it’s unpopular necessarily but a very costly extension that would be nice, but even if that ever did happen, it would be at least a decade or 2 away.

Understood, but does this suggest the city is looking to redevelop all the way to the airport?

[skinzfan23]

Most streetcars have a max speed of 30-35 mph, some can go up to 45.

I just think when you do research (and even listen to how the streetcar in Omaha is being funded) as much as it seems like a no-brainer, that is a long stretch that probably isn’t going to lead to more development. If that is the case, who is going to pay for it? I would think they would apply for federal grants for most of it, which of course takes a of time, but then there is so much more regulation involved as well.

[Busguy2010]

I'd be okay if they wanted to extend it to the airport by way of 16th street and Carter Lake. Streetcars aren't much of a transportation solution. They're good in the intimate streetscape level, but if you need to cover distance quickly, a streetcar ain't it. That's why I hope they aren't really considering that as a solution for airport-downtown people moving. Try a well served bus route first and see how it goes first.

[Garrett]

I'd be okay if they wanted to extend it to the airport by way of 16th street and Carter Lake. Streetcars aren't much of a transportation solution. They're good in the intimate streetscape level, but if you need to cover distance quickly, a streetcar ain't it. That's why I hope they aren't really considering that as a solution for airport-downtown people moving. Try a well served bus route first and see how it goes first.

I’d be interested to see Carter Lake take an ambitious stance on development with a streetcar line. Carter Lake could be a really interesting asset as a whole if developed the right ways

[halgy]

On Grow Omaha the Mayor mentioned the streetcar colors would be like the parking kiosk colors. So I guess, blue, purple, green, orange, etc.

Also interesting to note, and while unpopular on this forum, Jean said eventually the streetcar would go to the airport.

Honestly, the speed wouldn't be an issue as the distance from airport to downtown is not that much, also wouldn't they be able to increase the speed of the streetcar along Abott, with no stops; as to reduce travel time?

That was exactly my thought. Maybe stops could be added in later if Abbott Drive develops, but to start it should be nonstop from the Mercantile (or wherever the penultimate station is) and the airport. It is only 3 miles, so normal street speeds are fine. The extra 4 minutes for a trip downtown is still way faster than waiting for an Uber or renting a car, or probably even walking to your own car in the parking ramp.

With the airport so close to downtown, having it fully connected seems like a massive selling point for the city. Hop off the plane, hop on the trolly, wait 10 minutes, and boom: you're downtown. Even big cities don't have that kind of convenience. It would make the existing route and all future expansions even more valuable.

I wonder: would having a direct airport connection further raise property values along the existing route, and therefore raise more TIF that could be used to pay for the airport extension? Also along those lines: would it be significantly cheaper (per mile) to build a route like this? A direct route wouldn't require redoing all of the street scaping or building a dozen stations. And are there utilities under Abbott that would need to be moved? I'm not saying it would be cheap, but maybe it wouldn't be as big of a lift as getting some other routes done.

[FishFighter92]

On Grow Omaha the Mayor mentioned the streetcar colors would be like the parking kiosk colors. So I guess, blue, purple, green, orange, etc.

Also interesting to note, and while unpopular on this forum, Jean said eventually the streetcar would go to the airport.

Honestly, the speed wouldn't be an issue as the distance from airport to downtown is not that much, also wouldn't they be able to increase the speed of the streetcar along Abott, with no stops; as to reduce travel time?

That was exactly my thought. Maybe stops could be added in later if Abbott Drive develops, but to start it should be nonstop from the Mercantile (or wherever the penultimate station is) and the airport. It is only 3 miles, so normal street speeds are fine. The extra 4 minutes for a trip downtown is still way faster than waiting for an Uber or renting a car, or probably even walking to your own car in the parking ramp.

If we end up purchasing the Urbos from CAF, "normal street speed" is at the very top of it's maximum supported speed. You would likely need it to be on a dedicated lane or elevated line. Technical details are a bit sparse online but if the cars are travelling at top speed, I wonder if they have the ability to pull enough current to also charge the batteries. A street car extension to the airport would also require Omaha to purchase another trainset or two just to keep headways the same as before an extension. It's a lot of money for not a lot of gain. Just run busses/shuttles.

[NEDodger]

“Just run buses or shuttles.”

This. The intent should be to get people easily from the airport to downtown. There are not developable opportunities due to jails, homeless shelters, a lake, and airport property itself.

[Busguy2010]

“Just run buses or shuttles.”

This. The intent should be to get people easily from the airport to downtown. There are not developable opportunities due to jails, homeless shelters, a lake, and airport property itself.

I really think we can meet our perceived "need" by running a regular bus there, as if it would really that busy. My thought was use route 4 - Route 4 Enhanced Bus
https://goo.gl/maps/V1hX9mLdWv29PEVt6

It would run every 15 minutes all day and well into the evening. I don't *think* it would be very busy from the Airport, but this city has never, and I mean never tried it. Might find out it's a useful route.

As it pertains to the streetcar, you devalue the streetcar by trying to make it something it's not.

[DasBoot]

“Just run buses or shuttles.”

This. The intent should be to get people easily from the airport to downtown. There are not developable opportunities due to jails, homeless shelters, a lake, and airport property itself.

I really think we can meet our perceived "need" by running a regular bus there, as if it would really that busy. My thought was use route 4 - Route 4 Enhanced Bus
https://goo.gl/maps/V1hX9mLdWv29PEVt6

It would run every 15 minutes all day and well into the evening. I don't *think* it would be very busy from the Airport, but this city has never, and I mean never tried it. Might find out it's a useful route.

As it pertains to the streetcar, you devalue the streetcar by trying to make it something it's not.

I agree that a bus route makes the most sense. The streetcar going to the airport like others have mentioned is the wrong mode to be using. Pittsburgh has a dedicated bus route called the 28x Airport Flyer that I've used a few times when I didn't have a rental. It would be nice if Omaha had something like this on a smaller scale. Here's a pdf of the schedule and route. https://www.rideprt.org/pdfs/28X.pdf

[Renovator2559]

I agree that a bus route makes the most sense. Pittsburgh has a dedicated bus route called the 28x Airport Flyer that I've used a few times when I didn't have a rental. It would be nice if Omaha had something like this on a smaller scale. Here's a pdf of the schedule and route. https://www.rideprt.org/pdfs/28X.pdf

Right but how long is the distance of the bus route?
As others have said, do we really think people are willing to wait outside on a bus shelter Do you think people are willing to transfer buses with luggage?

The reason I say streetcar to airport works, is that there would not be any transfers.
Omaha doesn't even have a transit hub for easy transfer to an OMA bus route.
Still a downside of using the streetcar, is that there will be a source of revenue loss for the airport, since the fares are free and a dedicated bus route could charge its seperate fares.

LAX does it well with buses, because its only a point A to B no stops in between. From LAX to bus terminals and union Station.

Still, do share with us more insight on how the Pittsburgh bus route works, the distance of the route the stops and the quality of the buses.
Maybe there are things missing I'm not yet considering

[NEDodger]

Don’t do it with transfers, then. Here’s your hotel bus route:

Station A: The airport

Station B: Somewhere along the mix of hotels on Abbott.

Station C: 10th and Cuming

Station D: 10th and Cass

Station E: 10th and Howard

Station F: 15th and Douglas

Repeat.

Look what I was able to do - give the exact same outcome, but not have to spend $500 million to do it.

[Garrett]

Mayor Stothert also mentioned on Grow Omaha that the Med Center was working with HDR to look at what the streetcar through the campus will look like, and that it will likely go to Saddle Creek.

[Dusty]

The intent to connect the airport with 10th street corridor is to attract more business travelers and short term stays. It's not intended to get your family across town with tons of luggage to go on vacation. It doesn't matter if you use buses or trains. There is no need to have any stops between the soccer stadium and the airport. As NEDodger said....no one will want to get off and walk around by a jail, homeless shelter, etc. There is no need to develop along Abbott Drive. I have proposed this route for a while now. I have always said start with buses and take it from there. If you were to upgrade to rail, the segment from airport to soccer stadium would function like light rail... faster, dedicated lane, and no stops in between.

Ideally, you are making more money with more events, conventions, meetings, and short 1-2 day stays for revenue. This pays for the segment of line, not development on Abbott.

[Busguy2010]

I personally was more looking at airport transit as a solution for people coming and going from here, not those coming in from elsewhere. Either way, the bus route I indicated above gets that job done, and faster than a streetcar. Furthermore, one could be dropped off at Westroads, anywhere else along the route, or even transfer from another bus much further out in the city. And as I mentioned, Route 4 already runs every 15 minutes and I can't imagine a streetcar running much more often than that, so you really wouldn't be waiting outside in a bus shelter any more than a streetcar shelter. Plus the terminal is right there.

By going with the streetcar as that solution, you strictly limit it to airport-downtown-midtown, and in an inefficient manner. It wouldn't work for the city as a streetcar is never intended to be a city-wide transportation solution. A regular, decent bus service would fill the exact "need" and get you within the same area as any streetcar. I say just forget about it. The streetcar is not the correct mode here.

[Busguy2010]

Mayor Stothert also mentioned on Grow Omaha that the Med Center was working with HDR to look at what the streetcar through the campus will look like, and that it will likely go to Saddle Creek.

Maybe they'll get that figured out before that section starts so they don't have to terminate it at 39th for just a couple years.

Forgive me if it's already been covered, anybody know if they have a construction sequence established, as in which sections will start first, second, etc?

[Busguy2010]

I agree that a bus route makes the most sense. The streetcar going to the airport like others have mentioned is the wrong mode to be using. Pittsburgh has a dedicated bus route called the 28x Airport Flyer that I've used a few times when I didn't have a rental. It would be nice if Omaha had something like this on a smaller scale. Here's a pdf of the schedule and route. https://www.rideprt.org/pdfs/28X.pdf

That's good, and puts into perspective what we really have here. That's Pittsburgh, and they only have an every 30 minute bus route to their airport.

In Omaha, we currently only have an every 30 minute bus between Downtown and the Airport, weekdays only, only morning and afternoon. There's a LOT of room to test the waters with the bus system before diving in the deep end with the streetcar.

And I really don't even think there's that much of a need for even the bus route I thought up, but it wouldn't hurt to try. Be better to find out if nobody will use public transit between the airport and Downtown with a bus than a significant investment.

We have next to no public transit to the airport right now, and I think it's more because there's no demand for it, not because Metro is sitting there scratching their armpits. It would be worth it to try a full service bus route first.

[ProgKingHughesker]

On Grow Omaha the Mayor mentioned the streetcar colors would be like the parking kiosk colors. So I guess, blue, purple, green, orange, etc.

Also interesting to note, and while unpopular on this forum, Jean said eventually the streetcar would go to the airport.

Honestly, the speed wouldn't be an issue as the distance from airport to downtown is not that much, also wouldn't they be able to increase the speed of the streetcar along Abott, with no stops; as to reduce travel time?

Now that I have thought about the possibility of a bus route. I don't think the bus route would even work, unless there was a transit cetner or "union station" where most bus routes converge; with amenities such as restaurants and the like

Ideally a bus or streetcar route would just go south from the airport, go by the riverfront, loop the Mall, and head back to Abbot either via the riverfront or 10th (could also use 10th inbound and riverfront outbound) with an extension to the Amtrak station if they ever get that KC route going

[Dusty]

Even if the rail is the end game for 10th street to airport, it will be at least 10 years. They will need time and money to do all the studies and apply for government funding.

I have always believed in building it out incrementally. I have already suggested this route to Metro. I want to get the bus line going asap. Once established, people will get use to the line. Then you can apply for funding for some really nice shelters/stations as if you were building it for rail. Then you apply for funding to bust out the median on Abbot for a dedicated center lane for transit. This keeps options open to upgrade to light rail. At worst, you have one incredible bus line.

[nebport5]

I posted this image in Ita's Meca/convention center rumors thread but I think it also may gives us a better idea of what a streetcar bridge to C.B. may look like coexisting with Heartland...

[ita]

Brandon Garrett, Chief of Staff for the CB mayor's office, gave a presentation at the last council meeting about transit. Among the topics he covered was the streetcar extension. Per his update, they just kicked off the PEL, Planning and Environment Linkages, study earlier this month that is need for federal grants. It will look at the multimodal bridge alternative locations, among other things. That PEL study will take about 15-18 months to complete. You can watch his presentation here:

https://councilbluffsia.new.swagit.com/ ... 99527?ts=4

[halgy]

Brandon Garrett, Chief of Staff for the CB mayor's office, gave a presentation at the last council meeting about transit. Among the topics he covered was the streetcar extension. Per his update, they just kicked off the PEL, Planning and Environment Linkages, study earlier this month that is need for federal grants. It will look at the multimodal bridge alternative locations, among other things. That PEL study will take about 15-18 months to complete. You can watch his presentation here:

https://councilbluffsia.new.swagit.com/ ... 99527?ts=4

Awesome to see that it is moving forward and that CB taking it seriously, but also mildly frustrating to see how long the process takes. Of course the main line won't be open for almost 3 years, but how amazing would it be to get extensions approved and construction started before the first line is even done?

Lowkey, an extension into CB may be the most impactful of any new route that has been discussed. Assuming they take it down the old 1st Ave and they also add some good north/south multi-use pathways, like half the city will be within easy walking/biking distance of the streetcar. That will be potentially tens of thousands of additional users. Not to mention connecting all of the businesses along Broadway, and all of the new infill development.

[ita]

Brandon Garrett, Chief of Staff for the CB mayor's office, gave a presentation at the last council meeting about transit. Among the topics he covered was the streetcar extension. Per his update, they just kicked off the PEL, Planning and Environment Linkages, study earlier this month that is need for federal grants. It will look at the multimodal bridge alternative locations, among other things. That PEL study will take about 15-18 months to complete. You can watch his presentation here:

https://councilbluffsia.new.swagit.com/ ... 99527?ts=4

Awesome to see that it is moving forward and that CB taking it seriously, but also mildly frustrating to see how long the process takes. Of course the main line won't be open for almost 3 years, but how amazing would it be to get extensions approved and construction started before the first line is even done?

Lowkey, an extension into CB may be the most impactful of any new route that has been discussed. Assuming they take it down the old 1st Ave and they also add some good north/south multi-use pathways, like half the city will be within easy walking/biking distance of the streetcar. That will be potentially tens of thousands of additional users. Not to mention connecting all of the businesses along Broadway, and all of the new infill development.

Very amazing. Though it is almost impossible since they are just starting the PEL study. Let's say they finish it be the end of 2025, they submit federal grant application in 2026, three years from then to get the award (based on the KC UMKC extension), that puts us at 2030-1 groundbreaking if everything goes smoothly? They haven't gotten to how they intend to fund this, outside of federal funding either.

Lot's of hurdle's yet to be jumped, but I agree, I think this is likely the most impactful of possible extensions off the mainline, and why CB needs to be all in with getting that first phase of the multimodal bridge. In addition to your thoughts, just the development of NP Dodge Golf Course should be hundreds of millions, if not over a billion, in development and thousands of new residents to the riverfront. It would be transformative.

[jjjjhskr]

Morgantown, WV has a Personal Rapis Transit line that goes 8.3 miles. Possibly an option from Eppley to downtown?

[Garrett]

Morgantown, WV has a Personal Rapis Transit line that goes 8.3 miles. Possibly an option from Eppley to downtown?

One of my favorite obscure transit systems, but they’re just not built and I doubt Omaha would do one.

[skip]

Stothert mentioned permanent two way bike lane on north side of harney today at YP Summit.

[Louie]

Stothert mentioned permanent two way bike lane on north side of harney today at YP Summit.

So it's going to be switched from the south side of the street to the north? Is there a reason behind that?

[halgy]

Stothert mentioned permanent two way bike lane on north side of harney today at YP Summit.

So it's going to be switched from the south side of the street to the north? Is there a reason behind that?

The streetcar goes along the south side on Harney.

[Louie]

Stothert mentioned permanent two way bike lane on north side of harney today at YP Summit.

So it's going to be switched from the south side of the street to the north? Is there a reason behind that?

The streetcar goes along the south side on Harney.

Ope, that was an oversight on my part.

[Dundeemaha]

It was also brought up as a potential improvement after the pilot in another meeting or report because in the winter the north side will get more sun to help with snow/ice.

[skip]

It was also brought up as a potential improvement after the pilot in another meeting or report because in the winter the north side will get more sun to help with snow/ice.

Yep exactly. More sun and streetcar will be on south side.

[ita]

https://councilbluffsia.new.swagit.com/ ... 697?ts=226

Here's Brandon's Part II of his streetcar extension. He talks about how the Sugarhouse, KC, and Charlotte streetcars brought significant population and development growth. I thought some interesting things that were brought up that Sugarhouse line currently helped bring $2 billion in development, while KC as brought $4 billion. Even more significant is that KC reported a couple years ago a 40k increase in population around the streetcar line.

Interestingly, one of the council members brought up that CB in total is valued at $4 billion. The CB extension might not bring $4 billion, but I don't think $2 billion is out of reach considering Dodge Golf Course's potential. Furthermore, the line would be predominantly residential housing, based on where it runs through. It's about a 4-5 mile run from the River to Jennie Edmundson. I could see them easily absorbing new 20k residents along that line, 10k at NP Dodge, 10K along 1st Ave. So, for CB they could boost the total value of their city by 50% and total population by 33% with this big investment (the bridge alone is supposed to cost $100 million, at least; based on the Omaha line, First Ave. should cost about the same, so another $3-400 million, I would guess).

CB is stagnated, so I could see why the city is going full bore with the streetcar extension. The investment should be worth it and they could really use this shot in the arm.

[Garrett]

https://councilbluffsia.new.swagit.com/ ... 697?ts=226

Here's Brandon's Part II of his streetcar extension. He talks about how the Sugarhouse, KC, and Charlotte streetcars brought significant population and development growth. I thought some interesting things that were brought up that Sugarhouse line currently helped bring $2 billion in development, while KC as brought $4 billion. Even more significant is that KC reported a couple years ago a 40k increase in population around the streetcar line.

Interestingly, one of the council members brought up that CB in total is valued at $4 billion. The CB extension might not bring $4 billion, but I don't think $2 billion is out of reach considering Dodge Golf Course's potential. Furthermore, the line would be predominantly residential housing, based on where it runs through. It's about a 4-5 mile run from the River to Jennie Edmundson. I could see them easily absorbing new 20k residents along that line, 10k at NP Dodge, 10K along 1st Ave. So, for CB they could boost the total value of their city by 50% and total population by 33% with this big investment (the bridge alone is supposed to cost $100 million, at least; based on the Omaha line, First Ave. should cost about the same, so another $3-400 million, I would guess).

CB is stagnated, so I could see why the city is going full bore with the streetcar extension. The investment should be worth it and they could really use this shot in the arm.

I had a talk with Brandon for a project I did last year, and one of the projections he showed me said CB wanted to add more than 50k residents just along the streetcar line.

[Dusty]

I had a talk with Brandon for a project I did last year, and one of the projections he showed me said CB wanted to add more than 50k residents just along the streetcar line.

This is pretty insane. Isn't Council Bluffs around 60K? So adding another 50K would nearly double the city. Definitely would change the image of what people think of the city.

[skinzfan23]

It would be great to add that many, but not going to happen. Where are all these people going to come from? There would have to be something really, really big to draw that many people. No doubt, CB's population is stagnant, they really haven't grown much since the 1960's. Its not like Austin, TX where the weather is nicer and there are a ton of jobs in high paying industries. Developing Dodge/riverside golf course will be great and there is definitely more room for growth on the "1st ave" corridor, but nothing even close to those numbers.

[ita]

I had a talk with Brandon for a project I did last year, and one of the projections he showed me said CB wanted to add more than 50k residents just along the streetcar line.

This is pretty insane. Isn't Council Bluffs around 60K? So adding another 50K would nearly double the city. Definitely would change the image of what people think of the city.

Yeah, census had them at just under 63k in 2020. For sure, 50k would truly be insane. I forgot that was their project, but it's on their transit analysis from 2020 (https://www.councilbluffs-ia.gov/Docume ... /View/8302). They projected at least 30k units. It costs $250-300k per unit in a multifamily project from what I have seen. That's several billions just in residential development. Also, these are projections by 2040, so after almost a couple decades of the streetcar.

For another neat point of reference, if they added 50k new residents, they would jump from 10th biggest city in Iowa to 3rd, behind DSM and Cedar Rapids.

[Dusty]

Yeah, census had them at just under 63k in 2020. For sure, 50k would truly be insane. I forgot that was their project, but it's on their transit analysis from 2020 (https://www.councilbluffs-ia.gov/Docume ... /View/8302). They projected at least 30k units. It costs $250-300k per unit in a multifamily project from what I have seen. That's several billions just in residential development. Also, these are projections by 2040, so after almost a couple decades of the streetcar.

For another neat point of reference, if they added 50k new residents, they would jump from 10th biggest city in Iowa to 3rd, behind DSM and Cedar Rapids.

I feel like it would be more of an extension of Omaha than Council Bluffs as we know it now.
Maybe we can make a deal....we pay part of the streetcar extension and they change their name to East Omaha, IA.
HA!

[Busguy2010]

Yeah, census had them at just under 63k in 2020. For sure, 50k would truly be insane. I forgot that was their project, but it's on their transit analysis from 2020 (https://www.councilbluffs-ia.gov/Docume ... /View/8302). They projected at least 30k units. It costs $250-300k per unit in a multifamily project from what I have seen. That's several billions just in residential development. Also, these are projections by 2040, so after almost a couple decades of the streetcar.

For another neat point of reference, if they added 50k new residents, they would jump from 10th biggest city in Iowa to 3rd, behind DSM and Cedar Rapids.

I feel like it would be more of an extension of Omaha than Council Bluffs as we know it now.
Maybe we can make a deal....we pay part of the streetcar extension and they change their name to East Omaha, IA.
HA!

I dunno, I'd actually like to see the competition CB can put together. They seem to have higher development standards/aspirations, so I'd never doubt CB's ability to out do big brother with the right tools.

[skinzfan23]

Again anywhere near 50,000 isn’t going to happen. They would be lucky to add anywhere close to 10,000 in the next decade. Do you realize how many housing units even that would take. I am from CB and there definitely is a stigma that most in Omaha or NE will not even consider living in CB. I wish them success, and hope there is growth, but let’s be realistic.

[halgy]

Again anywhere near 50,000 isn’t going to happen. They would be lucky to add anywhere close to 10,000 in the next decade. Do you realize how many housing units even that would take. I am from CB and there definitely is a stigma that most in Omaha or NE will not even consider living in CB. I wish them success, and hope there is growth, but let’s be realistic.

People will get over their prejudice pretty quick if CB adds a few thousand units of good, cheap housing, especially if it is on a streetcar that goes right into the Omaha urban core. It won't attract people who want to live out in the sprawling suburbs in West O, but it might attract people who want a bunch of the perks of downtown living without the downtown prices and crowds.

[CBJason]

This is pie in the sky stuff. You’re going to tell me that my hometown will double because of the land of one golf course and a small stretch of blocks along one street?! Get out of here. I’d like to see these projections they’re using.