Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[Louie]

"Tesla Robotaxi unveil on 8/8" - Elon Musk

This should put production in early 2026. I would expect to see wide release by 2028, just in time to get a ride to the streetcar. Nebraska already has laws on the books and the current technology does 99.7% of the driving.

* 8 is a Chinese number so they might start by releasing the service in China.

What are you suggesting that means?

[Renovator2559]

I swear Elon should just hold off on any of his transportation wet dreams that don't translate into viable solutions. Also the cybertruck is quirky with a questionable design and is so underwhelming in what it delivers!

[PotatoeEatsFish]

Is this for a station on the streetcar?

[Louie]

Is this for a station on the streetcar?

Could be utility prep work for it that they've been doing here and there. Where is this?

[MetcalfeHarrison]

I would assume it is all MUD doing gas main work.

It looks like OSA canceled this month's meeting, has anyone heard any rumblings of something going on? I thought this was the month we were going to see ballpark cost figures from Kiewit so it feels odd that they haven't had meetings the past two months when construction should be full-go sometime this year.

[Busguy2010]

I would guess some sort of prep work. For something as big as the streetcar, I'd think there'd be a groundbreaking ceremony once they start working on THE streetcar.

[iamjacobm]

They need to move all the utilities under the streetcar tracks, can’t dig down and fix anything when that is installed.

[Mapguy]

All the work on Farnam is Gas main being moved for the streetcar.

The bigger push will be water if it needs to be moved---the water pipes east of 480 are OLD 1880s vintage cast Iron.

Im pretty sure those pipes would outlast the streetcar given the chance lol.

[nebugeater]

All the work on Farnam is Gas main being moved for the streetcar.

The bigger push will be water if it needs to be moved---the water pipes east of 480 are OLD 1880s vintage cast Iron.

Im pretty sure those pipes would outlast the streetcar given the chance lol.

So you are saying they have another 10 years left in them?

[Mapguy]

No those 1800s pipes could go another 100-150 years. They built pipes to last before WW1---their wall thickness is 3 times thicker than what was put into the ground during the suburban boom in the 50s.

Anything built in the 50s or after is garbage by comparison.

[Mapguy]

What really facinates me is how much care they put into replacing the Farnam and Harney bridges. Each bridge will probably be a 5-10 million investment and is needed to handle the weight of a streetcar.

I would love to see wider pedestrian sidewalks and some kind of protected bike lane so bikers feel safer crossing 480.

Id also assume the DOT would be kicking in some money to replace these 1960s era bridges that are likely near end of life anyway.

[skinzfan23]

What really facinates me is how much care they put into replacing the Farnam and Harney bridges. Each bridge will probably be a 5-10 million investment and is needed to handle the weight of a streetcar.

I would love to see wider pedestrian sidewalks and some kind of protected bike lane so bikers feel safer crossing 480.

Id also assume the DOT would be kicking in some money to replace these 1960s era bridges that are likely near end of life anyway.

I asked this question at the open house, but no one had an answer. I would love for there to be some decorative element to them as well.

I was just wondering the other day when this is supposed to start. (I believe the answer I got at the open house was this year) What concerns me is that is already the middle of April and nothing has started. I would think that this will probably take min of 6-8 months to complete. Without these being done, it could possibly hold up construction for other parts of the line. With the fairly warm and dry spring we have had, you would think that they would like to take advantage of that.

[FishFighter92]

Huge potential for the bridges. Big sidewalks, a cap over the interstate, etc.

[Dusty]

This extension is basically building a historic streetcar line in the way it functions. There is a reason why we don't build them anymore. Buses are cheaper and out perform these old streetcars. I can go on and on about why this line is so poorly thought out. What are the metrics for the next study? The route with the most potholes? The route the with the most Megasavers or Discount Liquor stores?

Who is requesting the study? MAPA?

Are cheaper in the sort term.

And out perform them how? The capacity is still higher and can be added to more with more cars on a train.

There is also the perception benefit. There are a lot of people like my wife who love transit, but only when the backbone has rails.

When we go to Seattle for example we ride transit exclusively. A lot of time ends up on busses and she doesn't mind. But here, she refuses to ride ORBT because she likes in order: A train, biking, her car, walking, a bus.

Somehow just having rail in there makes the bus OK for her. She realizes its weird. We can't figure it out. Maybe it has something to do with being from a country that does transit at least mostly right. But I always look at her as the target demographic for US transit. Put skates on my feet and strap me to an Acme rocket and I'd take it if it gets me there quickly and safely without fighting traffic, but we want to covert as much of the easy to convert people as possible.

For a route we know almost nothing about, I see no problems here.

Building a streetcar to help the homeless get to Creighton? Not sure how many homeless are students here. Then again with the high cost of living, Maybe there is a connection. LOL!

I get it. I love trains over buses too. But it's important we are building the right mode for the right corridor. We need a long term vison to build a better network. We will not do this by chasing free studies that don't line up. For all we know this study could say to take the rail through the drive through at McDonalds because that's where homeless frequent in the area.

The big problem we have is two authorities doing their own thing with no long-term plan. A streetcar down 19th would disrupt service with Metro's route 18. This is Metro #1 route for riders in 2023. They are not talking together and it shows.
The good news is when Metro upgrades to regional transit authority, they will have the power to manage and plan any rail projects. So they could close the Streetcar Authority and have it all run under Metro. This is good thing because they will be planning bus and rail routes to work together verses the 2 authorities competing against each other on the same territory.

[Athomsfere]

Building a streetcar to help the homeless get to Creighton?

You can stop that right there. Its a red herring and has no real correlation with any topic in this thread.

If we were a better people, we'd do what not only works but is more compassionate and go the housing first route.

The big problem we have is two authorities doing their own thing with no long-term plan. A streetcar down 19th would disrupt service with Metro's route 18. This is Metro #1 route for riders in 2023. They are not talking together and it shows.
The good news is when Metro upgrades to regional transit authority, they will have the power to manage and plan any rail projects. So they could close the Streetcar Authority and have it all run under Metro. This is good thing because they will be planning bus and rail routes to work together verses the 2 authorities competing against each other on the same territory.

Most places would see upgrading an OK at best bus route that is busy to a more reliable train as a benefit. I would.

[GenX]

People keep talking about how the streetcar is too expensive, blah blah blah… Well, we’d still have them if it weren’t for GM and big oil who came along, tore them up, burned the trolleys and said “here’s a bus instead”. It costs money to fix mistakes, but 100% behind bringing the streetcar back!

[halgy]

The streetcar is paying for itself, as verified by an independent auditor. In fact, the report says that the line will bring in more than it needs. The city should be investigating any and all routes where this is the case, and start building spurs/extensions ASAP. After the "profitable" lines are all built out, any extra revenue can go towards subsidizing other transit to make the network as a whole more useful and equitable.

It would also be good if there was some sort of permanent funding model in place, to ensure the streetcar is maintained at a high level even after the TIF money is done. Something like a fixed percentage of tax revenue from properties along the route going towards maintaining the system. Even high-quality transit is seen as "losing money", but only because their positive externalities aren't being accounted for.

[Athomsfere]

People keep talking about how the streetcar is too expensive, blah blah blah… Well, we’d still have them if it weren’t for GM and big oil who came along, tore them up, burned the trolleys and said “here’s a bus instead”. It costs money to fix mistakes, but 100% behind bringing the streetcar back!

I always get a weird feeling up my spine when this comes up.

In most markets, I think we give GM a little too much credit. I mean yeah I have read some of the books and seen some of the documentaries and read some of the findings from the court proceedings.

But we can't forget the other dozen things happening at the time that helped ruin our cities and kill our transit. Red lining, white flight, a hyper industrial economy with no precedent in history, William Levitt's contributions to cheap housing, Walmart-ization, a booming economy and population during all of this.

GM isn't THE reason we lost the streetcars anymore than any one of those things is IMO. But they were an obvious catalyst with a business reason to support killing off transit or at least minimizing its efficacy.

I think Omaha would have lost its streetcar no matter what. Not every city would have kept a legacy system if all of the above factors were so strong. But instead of sprawl for 20 miles, I'd bet we'd have replaced them with modern trams, medium rail and maybe even a heavy line or two.

[Garrett]

The GM thing is vaguely a myth at this point as it's very easy to blame them, but it's also more complicated than that. GM didn't actually buy Omaha's streetcar lines, it was owned by O&CB until the end. Most streetcar networks around the country, including Omaha, were built by private developers in order to sell land in their developments, and once that was done, they really didn't care to perform much maintenance or upgrades on their lines. For a lot of cities, buses were a better option than the very old, uncomfortable, and poorly maintained streetcar systems. Buses were the new technology of the day, and so they won out.

[Athomsfere]

The GM thing is vaguely a myth at this point as it's very easy to blame them, but it's also more complicated than that. GM didn't actually buy Omaha's streetcar lines, it was owned by O&CB until the end. Most streetcar networks around the country, including Omaha, were built by private developers in order to sell land in their developments, and once that was done, they really didn't care to perform much maintenance or upgrades on their lines. For a lot of cities, buses were a better option than the very old, uncomfortable, and poorly maintained streetcar systems. Buses were the new technology of the day, and so they won out.

Thanks. I couldn't recall if Omaha was a city that GM bought out. I didn't think so, but it was also irrelevant to how I perceive the issue.

I debated saying essentially what you said. But I'm glad I didn't add that too as your version is more succinct than anything I could have typed.

[Dusty]

Building a streetcar to help the homeless get to Creighton?

You can stop that right there. Its a red herring and has no real correlation with any topic in this thread.

If we were a better people, we'd do what not only works but is more compassionate and go the housing first route.

I am not picking on anyone. The criteria for the 19th Street streetcar study is based on levels of homelessness. Don't slap my hand for just stating the details of the study.

Omaha’s selected project involves the proposed North 19th Street Corridor Extension, a three-mile streetcar line that will be part of the forthcoming streetcar through downtown and midtown. The corridor will include a stop at the Creighton University campus. The projects chosen were based on the criteria laid out in the Notice of Funding Opportunity; this marked the second time applicants were asked to prioritize TOD in areas with high rates of homelessness.

Trust me! I want to help the community, but don't feel a streetcar extension here is necessary. I feel like we are grasping for straws for Federal funding. Wherever we can get grants and funding, we throw down streetcar lines. The route path may not make any sense or connect to other routes, but it was Free! What we get is a bunch of hodgepodge routes that continue a dysfunctional network. This is poor transportation planning. There are a lot of moving pieces in planning a network. We need a long-term strategic plan. Once the vision is set, we can write grants proposals that are in line with this network. When we have a well-designed network, people will truly embrace transit. An interconnected network will lift the community up as a whole. This includes the citizens on the bottom who need better access to jobs, clinics, affordable living, etc.

[thenewguy]

on my way home last night, i noticed quite a bit of utility markings on Douglas. is it possible they changed the route to coincide with the ORBT route?

[Garrett]

on my way home last night, i noticed quite a bit of utility markings on Douglas. is it possible they changed the route to coincide with the ORBT route?

Douglas between what and what? They definitely wouldn’t change the route at this stage. If it was close to 10th street it could be streetcar related otherwise it’s probably something else

[Busguy2010]

In response to a couple posts up, I definitely think we should pump the brakes on extensions. Let's wait for the streetcar to run for a couple years and find out where the demand really is.

The only extensions that really make any sense to be considering IMO are linear extensions of the Farnam backbone. So, into CB, and/or onto the UNMC campus and maybe to Dundee.

The only spur that makes sense to me right now is between Downtown and the zoo. I like that one because it would have no interaction with any current bus route. I don't like 19th because, as it was stated earlier, would interact with Omaha's busiest bus route. This could jam up the 18, slowing it down. What should really be on the table right now is for the 18 to be turned to ORBT, or at least enhanced bus with 10 minute frequency.

[Garrett]

I’m still confused about the wording of the grant from the FTA though. It implies that the 19th street line would be open in 2026, but that’s obviously not happening. Did the FTA get some details mixed up? Is this actually supposed to be for the original line? Definitely something I hope is brought up at the next OSA meeting

[ita]

I’m still confused about the wording of the grant from the FTA though. It implies that the 19th street line would be open in 2026, but that’s obviously not happening. Did the FTA get some details mixed up? Is this actually supposed to be for the original line? Definitely something I hope is brought up at the next OSA meeting

That way that excerpt is drafted is a little confusing, but I think the FTA is saying the downtown streetcar network, the initial Harney-Farnam route, is opening in 2026. That info is already dated as it's now spring 2027, but regardless, the summary is confusing as drafted. It will be interesting to see is OSA talks about this at all in the next meeting. If someone can submit a question about it, that would be nice.

[thenewguy]

on my way home last night, i noticed quite a bit of utility markings on Douglas. is it possible they changed the route to coincide with the ORBT route?

Douglas between what and what? They definitely wouldn’t change the route at this stage. If it was close to 10th street it could be streetcar related otherwise it’s probably something else

like 19th down to 15th if i remember right

[Ben]

https://www.transit.dot.gov/about/news/ ... AEk6dNYuRP

Grant to study future 19th St extension up through Creighton awarded by Federal Transit Admin to Omaha

[ita]

Per the TOD projects GIS page, study completion is 2028.

https://usdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dash ... f8119b99ed

[Busguy2010]

I wonder where they plan on going with it. If you draw a line from 19th & Harney, its over 3 miles to either the airport or NOTC. In the grant it says 3 miles. I guess it'll go up 19th to Lake, then its anybody's guess from that point.

I realized it would be okay for it to go up 19th. The 18 only goes up to 19th to Cass, and then jaunts over to 20th for the rest, so there would only be about a half mile of interaction.

I really wonder IF there are now plans to extend the streetcar to 10th & Mike Fahey, and then go west to 19th and then on from there. The old plan was for the streetcar to go west on Mike Fahey to Creighton, but the railroad tracks at 12th were a huge roadblock. Now that the railroad is defunct (IIRC), maybe they'll take that out and continue on with the original streetcar plan.

[Dusty]

Per the TOD projects GIS page, study completion is 2028.

https://usdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dash ... f8119b99ed

Thanks for adding, Ita! The timeline for the study is longer than I expected. My concern is the same as you brought up...Civic Square. Didn't you mention they have to build so much the next year or two or they loose financing options? I'm just thinking it forces them to proceed with their current plans. If this streetcar route gets approved, then Civic Square is underbuilt.

I would much rather go after a route everybody is asking for to help win approval from citizens. For example, 10th street light rail (zoo to airport, stops in downtown like a streetcar) or 72nd light rail corridor.

[F0R_L1F3]

Per the TOD projects GIS page, study completion is 2028.

https://usdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dash ... f8119b99ed

Thanks for adding, Ita! The timeline for the study is longer than I expected. My concern is the same as you brought up...Civic Square. Didn't you mention they have to build so much the next year or two or they loose financing options? I'm just thinking it forces them to proceed with their current plans. If this streetcar route gets approved, then Civic Square is underbuilt.

I would much rather go after a route everybody is asking for to help win approval from citizens. For example, 10th street light rail (zoo to airport, stops in downtown like a streetcar) or 72nd light rail corridor.

Agreed,

I feel like Civic should just yolo it and decide to increase density or at least design it so that it can expand in the future. Allow for higher density and bring more people in a guess that the streetcar line might run next to it. If the line is approved in the near future and is built, then it'd be better if they built for it and if it doesn't, that density would be nice either way. There's just a lot of potential for that site especially with their previous proposals.

[thenewguy]

in the last week, i've seen a few flatbeds hauling what appear to be subway cars or streetcars (couldn't tell cause they had tarps on them)

I assume we are nowhere near being ready to actually purchase them yet, but they were east bound on 80 out by Cabela's both times i saw them. Is there a manufacturer west (like, way west) somewhere that's maybe taking them to KC?

[DasBoot]

in the last week, i've seen a few flatbeds hauling what appear to be subway cars or streetcars (couldn't tell cause they had tarps on them)

I assume we are nowhere near being ready to actually purchase them yet, but they were east bound on 80 out by Cabela's both times i saw them. Is there a manufacturer west (like, way west) somewhere that's maybe taking them to KC?

Those are most likely coming from the Kawasaki Rail Car plant in Lincoln going to the East Coast.

[FishFighter92]

in the last week, i've seen a few flatbeds hauling what appear to be subway cars or streetcars (couldn't tell cause they had tarps on them)

I assume we are nowhere near being ready to actually purchase them yet, but they were east bound on 80 out by Cabela's both times i saw them. Is there a manufacturer west (like, way west) somewhere that's maybe taking them to KC?

Those are most likely coming from the Kawasaki Rail Car plant in Lincoln going to the East Coast.

PATH carriages for New York.

Kawasaki Rail Car will build 72 new powered PA-5 cars and refurbish another 350 for the agency’s Port Authority Trans-Hudson (PATH) rail system. The 27.8-mile system connects Newark, Jersey City, Hoboken and Manhattan.

The $240 million contract calls for deliveries of new cars to begin in 2022 from Kawasaki’s factory in Lincoln, Nebr., and tested at the Japanese company’s facility in Yonkers, N.Y. The latter will handle overhaul work between 2018 and 2024.

[DasBoot]

in the last week, i've seen a few flatbeds hauling what appear to be subway cars or streetcars (couldn't tell cause they had tarps on them)

I assume we are nowhere near being ready to actually purchase them yet, but they were east bound on 80 out by Cabela's both times i saw them. Is there a manufacturer west (like, way west) somewhere that's maybe taking them to KC?

Those are most likely coming from the Kawasaki Rail Car plant in Lincoln going to the East Coast.

PATH carriages for New York.

Kawasaki Rail Car will build 72 new powered PA-5 cars and refurbish another 350 for the agency’s Port Authority Trans-Hudson (PATH) rail system. The 27.8-mile system connects Newark, Jersey City, Hoboken and Manhattan.

The $240 million contract calls for deliveries of new cars to begin in 2022 from Kawasaki’s factory in Lincoln, Nebr., and tested at the Japanese company’s facility in Yonkers, N.Y. The latter will handle overhaul work between 2018 and 2024.

Thanks for the info. I used to work for a contractor that supported some of the rail car plant's systems so I would periodically get a close up look at what they were working on.

[MetcalfeHarrison]

New Streetcar Authority agenda is out for May, with resolutions to approve purchase of the cars and early procurement for some long-lead items. It'll be over $50 million between the two items so as long as there aren't any hiccups in approval I would say there is a 0% chance of this getting off-ramped now which is exciting.

They also discuss putting some of the sewer, water, bridge, and building scopes out to bid rather than keeping them with Kiewit which is interesting. Hopefully that means we see someone other than MUD on site soon.

https://www.cityofomaha.org/omaha-streetcar

[Coyote]

Omaha streetcar update: Vehicle builder approved, bridge work needed



Omaha's streetcar project is closer to construction but is finishing up design work. Streetcar Authority board members Monday approved the bid for vehicle builder. CAF USA Inc. produced modern streetcars for Kansas City and Cincinnati. Board members also approved early procurement for special rail parts like girders needed for reconstruction on top of the Farnam and Harney street bridges.

"The concrete pavement, the sidewalks, the fencing are items that are part of the bridge that will be essentially be torn down and then reconstructed," vice chair Bob Stubbe said. Bridge work won't have a major impact on the interstate system below, only a temporary lane closure during demo work, according to Stubbe.

[Garrett]

… LATE 2027 now?

[thenewguy]

… LATE 2027 now?

bummer.

although i think the pothole issue/relocation of gas lines probably caused some delay, i'd rather they take a little time and make sure it is right out of the gate. It's taking longer, i hope that doesn't mean it fizzles out