Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[halgy]

… LATE 2027 now?

They kinda snuck that in there at the end, huh? That's unfortunate if accurate.

[Athomsfere]

I thought I had heard 2027 once before, but I didn't remember it being "Late" 2027. So I guess a full year behind schedule at this point.

[MetcalfeHarrison]

… LATE 2027 now?

bummer.

although i think the pothole issue/relocation of gas lines probably caused some delay, i'd rather they take a little time and make sure it is right out of the gate. It's taking longer, i hope that doesn't mean it fizzles out

They just approved purchase of the cars so I don't think there is any way it fizzles out. I also think the reason Stothert is running again is to make sure no one else comes in to derail it.

It's not surprising that late 2027 is the new date now, and I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up being 2028 honestly. I would have thought Kiewit would have been out doing utility relocates first thing this spring but now the plan is to bid most of it out which means they are losing 5 or 6 months of the best time to work.

City of Omaha did the right thing by using construction manager-at-risk as their procurement method to try and speed up the process, but it sounds like they are unable to agree on bid prices so they are having to take more time and publically bid things out instead.

[skinzfan23]

I remember being at the open house and thought, there is no way it opens in late 2026 or early 2027 b/c they haven't even begun to start on demolishing the Farnam and Harney St bridges. I figure that alone will take the better part of a year if not longer.

I definitely want to see this come to fruition and I believe that we have the right people leading the committees, but that is a shame to see it being delayed by a year.

[FishFighter92]

Streetcar Authority board members Monday approved the bid for vehicle builder. CAF USA Inc. produced modern streetcars for Kansas City and Cincinnati.

Likely the exact same Urbos KC has.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC_Streetcar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Urbos

[PotatoeEatsFish]

I remember being at the open house and thought, there is no way it opens in late 2026 or early 2027 b/c they haven't even begun to start on demolishing the Farnam and Harney St bridges. I figure that alone will take the better part of a year if not longer.

I definitely want to see this come to fruition and I believe that we have the right people leading the committees, but that is a shame to see it being delayed by a year.

I asked them about those bridges since I walk across them to go downtown and the guy claimed one would be done by the fall and Farnam by the end of winter. I think he was full of |expletive|.

[skinzfan23]

No way those bridges are done by then. Maybe fall of 2025.

[MetcalfeHarrison]

If you started today and already had the girders ordered maybe you could have one done by the end of the year, but they haven't even put these out to bid yet. They just got approval to order some of the girders early and now they need to get bids from suppliers. At best you will get them delivered in early 2025, then you probably have 3 or 4 months of work once it warms up enough to pour concrete.
At this point I assume their plan is to bid the bridges out to start this fall, tear one down and have it ready to pour back in the spring, then follow right behind it with the other one. That would allow you to open the second bridge sometime in November or December if you can stick to the expedited schedule.

[Garrett]

Stothert in the State of the City said the federal grant was explicitly for a study for a North Omaha line, and that UNMC is still studying for their extension

[Renovator2559]

I don't follow this institution but I saw an article on my feed relating to the streetcar.

"Council Bluffs Streetcar Needs to Slow Down"
https://www.cato.org/commentary/council ... -slow-down

The "CATO Institute" wrote an article on the Council Bluffs streetcar extension. Their "experts" say that Council Bluffs should slow down and that they already have connections like the i480 and the i80 bridges connecting the cities They also say they shouldn't build the multi-modal bridge
They say that the population of Council Bluffs is not big enough to support the extension and expense (they mention nothing on TIF and development activity or how Omahan's will use the streetcar to get to Council Bluffs)

Many of us in the downtown area have been waiting for a proper transit path between Omaha and Council Bluffs, so that we can shop for groceries in Hy-Vee, as well as visit future developments. And no the current bus route from Omaha and CB is archaic, inconvenient and with low frequency, short run times. Yes there's always driving but this is the Urban core.

They argue that all midwest streetcars don't get use and is an unnecessary expense. We all know the Omaha transit authority spent plenty of time visiting other cities and making studies on how effective the streetcar is as well as economic and development impacts.

I was curious to research more on this CATO Institute and sure enough, while searching for streetcar. A string of articles showing how detrimental streetcars are, a fad and that its ancient 19th century technology and they have no place in a modern city, that busses are cheaper and much better ....

There are even several articles of them defending "sprawl", downtown city unsafe, suburban blah blah arguments. While omitting all the economical data, social and funding implications of sprawl. This institution appears to have plenty of blind spots on proper urbanism.

I found their points laughable and couldn't take them seriously but sometimes it helps to put articles from opponents of the streetcar to see how they think.

[halgy]

For those who don't know, the CATO Institute is a fairly big conservative think tank. Basically anything with government spending is going to be a 'no' from them, especially if it isn't "traditional". Take their opinion with a rock of salt.

A Council Bluffs extension would be an amazing investment into the future of our metro. And thankfully, Council Bluffs seems to be all about such investments. I have confidence that they won't let this article sway them.

[Renovator2559]

For those who don't know, the CATO Institute is a fairly big conservative think tank. Basically anything with government spending is going to be a 'no' from them, especially if it isn't "traditional". Take their opinion with a rock of salt.

It's not a conservative think thank, it's a libertarian.

I honestly don't care how much they try to dress up sprawl as some form of traditional, its progressive because it rejects all the traditional urbanist ideas that have been tested and successful for multiple millenia. Sprawl, stripmall parking lot galore never was traditional.

Also the biggest government overreach that happened, was the subsidizing of suburban, causing inner neighborhoods to become gentrified. The gov also pushed for demolition of neighborhoods to build expensive highways in downtown cores, further causing divided neighborhoods and causing economical collapse. The demolition of buildings to make way for non-tax producing surface lots, was another form of a parasitic drain to the city's money coffers.

This think tank makes no mention on how subsidized sprawl, sucks up a lot of the entire city's funds from the more tax profitable dense neighborhoods of downtown areas. No mention of how sprawling areas can't pay their expensive infrastructure.

Earlier today I rode ORBT and during peak times ORBT is full. Many teenagers coming from West of 72nd, and a lot of them got off on the Riverfront. (Just to think how many cars are taken off the street by one single ORBT, let alone the fleet of ORBTs on the Dodge route).

We need that ORBT extension to Council Bluffs, straight, direct and no weird transfers, that the current Council Bluffs route does.

Still the streetcar in Omaha will be a success in bringing us back to our tradition, and the wealth of our walkable connected neighborhoods will make the streetcar, a success and begin the momentum of streetcar routes expansions and additional ORBT routes.

[ita]

June board meeting is cancelled.

[skinzfan23]

Any ideas why these meetings are getting cancelled? I have no idea how this all works, but it seems to me that being in the early stages of construction and working with re-locating utilies, they need every chance they can get to meet and hash out the details.

[Garrett]

Any ideas why these meetings are getting cancelled? I have no idea how this all works, but it seems to me that being in the early stages of construction and working with re-locating utilies, they need every chance they can get to meet and hash out the details.

They probably just don't have anything to discuss. Utilities and the like have already been planned for as far as I know, so I think it's just a matter of waiting for currently approved things to happen

[skinzfan23]

That would be great if that is the case. Sorry, just been waiting for the streetcar for so long and so sick of all the delays and studies, I just want to see the construction of the actual rails.

[Renovator2559]

Me too, the suspense is killing me

[MetcalfeHarrison]

I don't think there will be any rail put in this year, but maybe some the second half of 2025. MUD has started doing their gas work, but then that's still going to be followed with water, sewer, electrical, and fiber and that is mostly going out to bid still and a contractor hasn't been selected. It wouldn't surprise me if the first rail we see installed is on the Harney Street bridge sometime next fall.

[Renovator2559]

Another senator from West Omaha wants the city to run a vote to see if residents think they will benefit, so they have a say on the streetcar, as the senator indicates. (even though there were public forums early on)

First it was that Elkhorn senator, attempting to introduce legislation to block TIF for the Streetcar and now this.

This article has links to both of their letters, I think Mayor Jean Stothert's response was spot on.

https://www.ketv.com/article/nebraska-s ... %20project.

[skinzfan23]

Great response by the mayor. This is why I love her. There were channels and forums to voice that info early on. The public could have voiced displeasure by reaching out to the city council.

The streetcar has already proven advantageous with MOO and DUO projects, both citing the streetcar as the reason why the proceeded. Hopefully there are many more projects to come.

I just hate people like the senator that comes in at the last minute, even though its already in motion and money has been spent and agreements signed to continue the streetcar.

[skinzfan23]

Like the mayor stated before, if everything were up to public vote, Schwab Field wouldn't have been built, the parks downtown wouldn't have been built, and probably several other huge projects as well. (the CHI did require a vote) That is why we have people that we vote for that can make these big decisions.

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Site sampling/drilling for the Street car maintenance facility happening today.

[thenewguy]

that's encouraging.

[Busguy2010]

Site sampling/drilling for the Street car maintenance facility happening today.

That's the most exciting part of it for me. I like the location they chose.

[thenewguy]

did anyone catch the press conference earlier today?

https://www.wowt.com/2024/06/18/omaha-s ... s-revenue/

[almighty_tuna]

tl;dr estimated cost is now up to ~$210M, but not unexpected; the streetcar will pay for itself. 15yr benefit is $2bn in development, but we're already up to $1.2bn. Everything is fine.

[thenewguy]

i'm curious to see what else comes down the line in terms of development. It looks like they may over shoot that $2B in development by a good bit.

[bldgengineer2015]

I'd like to see the packet that was handed out at the press conference. It sounded like it might show a little more of the projects in the pipeline.

[Flyer14]

More on the street car from Cindy Gonzalez.

https://nebraskaexaminer.com/2024/06/18 ... gest-city/

Stothert said higher costs were not unexpected. She said that earlier project estimates were based on a “conceptual” design. Now, with the design of the streetcar project about 90% complete, the city has more specifics.

[TheSeventhBrat]

Another senator from West Omaha wants the city to run a vote to see if residents think they will benefit, so they have a say on the streetcar, as the senator indicates. (even though there were public forums early on)

First it was that Elkhorn senator, attempting to introduce legislation to block TIF for the Streetcar and now this.

This article has links to both of their letters, I think Mayor Jean Stothert's response was spot on.

https://www.ketv.com/article/nebraska-s ... %20project.

McDonnell isn't from and doesn't live in West Omaha. He represents South Omaha and has lived there his entire life.

[Garrett]

More on the street car from Cindy Gonzalez.

https://nebraskaexaminer.com/2024/06/18 ... gest-city/

Stothert said higher costs were not unexpected. She said that earlier project estimates were based on a “conceptual” design. Now, with the design of the streetcar project about 90% complete, the city has more specifics.

The most interesting part of the article for me:

Stothert said development investment in the urban core, particularly along the streetcar corridor, now is estimated to reach beyond $1.3 billion from 26 projects by the end of this year.

Municap, an independent public finance consultant to the city, two years ago projected $2 billion in investment over 15 years. A new estimate prepared by the City Finance Department projects double that amount, or $3.9 billion over 15 years.

Who wants to figure out the 26 projects?

[ita]

More on the street car from Cindy Gonzalez.

https://nebraskaexaminer.com/2024/06/18 ... gest-city/

Stothert said higher costs were not unexpected. She said that earlier project estimates were based on a “conceptual” design. Now, with the design of the streetcar project about 90% complete, the city has more specifics.

The most interesting part of the article for me:

Stothert said development investment in the urban core, particularly along the streetcar corridor, now is estimated to reach beyond $1.3 billion from 26 projects by the end of this year.

Municap, an independent public finance consultant to the city, two years ago projected $2 billion in investment over 15 years. A new estimate prepared by the City Finance Department projects double that amount, or $3.9 billion over 15 years.

Who wants to figure out the 26 projects?

Based on the new projection of development over the first 15 years, $4 billion is pretty amazing. Not that we'll get this, but that's 6.5 MoO Towers. Haha.

Streetcar was announced in January 2022. I believe their projection includes both the TIF district, which is three blocks from the route north to south and the influence area, an additional 3 blocks. Taking that into consideration, outside of MoO ($600M) and Duo ($170M), there haven't been any other big projects announced in the TIF district. I wonder if they are counting things like the renovation of the Keeline building($7M) and the most recent version of Civic Square ($200M), which is in the influence area.

[ita]

OWH article has a bit more information. Does anybody have access to this handout?

Omaha Mayor Jean Stothert gives update on streetcar project costs, funding

Like that MuniCap estimate, that relies on some assumptions, including estimates of future property values. But Stothert said $1.3 billion in TIF projects were already built, underway or planned. She released a list of TIF-aided developments by name, mostly apartment construction or renovations but also some businesses, that included six projects from 2022, four from 2023 and five from this year. The list included another 11 “projected” developments.

[skinzfan23]

From that OWH article:

A consultant for the city, MuniCap Inc., had projected that the streetcar corridor would see more than $600 million in tax-increment financing revenues through 2057. That was based on an estimate of $2 billion in real estate development. On Tuesday, Stothert said the city now projects more development and more TIF revenue.

“The updated estimate prepared by the city’s Finance Department has grown to $3.9 billion over the next 15 years, nearly double the MuniCap estimate,” she said. “This results in a minimum of $940 million in revenue.”

I will take that return = $940 Million for investment of $389 Million = almost 250% ROI.

[Garrett]

From that OWH article:

A consultant for the city, MuniCap Inc., had projected that the streetcar corridor would see more than $600 million in tax-increment financing revenues through 2057. That was based on an estimate of $2 billion in real estate development. On Tuesday, Stothert said the city now projects more development and more TIF revenue.

“The updated estimate prepared by the city’s Finance Department has grown to $3.9 billion over the next 15 years, nearly double the MuniCap estimate,” she said. “This results in a minimum of $940 million in revenue.”

I will take that return = $940 Million for investment of $389 Million = almost 250% ROI.

Nationally transit tends to have a 4-to-1 ROI on average

[nebport5]

OWH article has a bit more information. Does anybody have access to this handout?

Omaha Mayor Jean Stothert gives update on streetcar project costs, funding

Like that MuniCap estimate, that relies on some assumptions, including estimates of future property values. But Stothert said $1.3 billion in TIF projects were already built, underway or planned. She released a list of TIF-aided developments by name, mostly apartment construction or renovations but also some businesses, that included six projects from 2022, four from 2023 and five from this year. The list included another 11 “projected” developments.

Yes, but the 11 "projected" developments are unnamed.


I bet we could collectively speculate on a number of them:

1. 10th & Harney development
2. rumored Mercantile hotel
3. future convention hotel
4. additional Lot B development
5. relocation of Children's Museum
6. 20th & Farnam(Heistand development)
7. existing Mutual Headquarters redevelopment (likely multiple projects)
8. 1313 Farnam (S.O.B.)
9. T3 Mercantile?
10. Turner Park East?
11. The National Build is finally purchased and reaches its potential?


What else?

[Louie]

Is she counting the MoO tower as that was contingent on the streetcar?

[Doctor Fate]

11. The National Build is finally purchased and reaches its potential?

What is the National Build?

Could also add:
- New Fire/Police HQ
- Redevelopment of current Fire/Police HQ sites
- Residential on the lot south of 480 and north of HOA

[nebport5]

11. The National Build is finally purchased and reaches its potential?

What is the National Build?


https://www.crexi.com/properties/748075 ... l-building

Could also add:
- New Fire/Police HQ
- Redevelopment of current Fire/Police HQ sites
- Residential on the lot south of 480 and north of HOA

Yes, possibly...I was thinking directly on the streetcar line for most developments. It remains to be seen where the police/fire will be located but I know we've talked about it possibly being off 480(Turner East). I would think that would be more of a chain reaction development than directly impacted by the streetcar.

Hopefully the residential lot south of 480 is still on the table. However, that area could be getting crowded with the streetcar barn and potential for streetcar bridge someday.

[iamjacobm]

Others potentially being counted depending on when they are starting from (assuming anything w/in 3 blocks of the line)

The View on Dodge Apartments
37 West Farnam
The apt conversion on 19h and Farnam
The proposed project just west of the Flatiron
There is an affordable project proposed on 25th Ave and Jones
The apartment proposal at the of Luthern Family services lot at 24th and Douglas
Potential redevelopment of the Salvation army campus just west of that