Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Trains, Planes, and Automobiles (and Streetcars!).

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Dusty
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Dusty »

Busguy2010 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 11:38 am Dusty, I like your north route. If it MUST go through North Omaha, Benson is a much more fit destination than the airport. Though it's a really long extension because of going through North Omaha. I had always been of the thought the Benson extension should follow the old Military-Hamilton-40th route, or even be an extension of the old Dundee route.
Any extension or spur can be built in segments at a time if that makes more sense. For example, 19/20th Northbound to Lake and then stop. Add the second half later.

Roughly by comparison:
Farnam/Harney route 5.25 miles
My North Omaha suggestion: 5.43 miles
My South Omaha suggestion: 5.25 miles

Yes, turning on Hamilton towards Military to Benson would be a shorter route, but Lake has a lot more potential for infill development. That stretch from 20th to 40th on Lake could be the next big hot spot. Think of it like Blackstone with more affordable housing and its own North Omaha flair.
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Dusty
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Dusty »

Garrett wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:20 am
skinzfan23 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 8:59 am Yeah I don't know why that keeps getting mentioned as well. Sometimes I almost wonder if its to keep people from talking. There are so many in the metro that know nothing about how a streetcar works. All I ever hear is that we need it to go to the airport and the zoo. (in my opinion, neither are a good option)
I'd say the zoo is a pretty good destination. The Littles Italy and Bohemia have been developing nicely, and the zoo is the number 1 tourist destination in the state, though the only drawback being that the zoo closes at 5 so the line would lose some of its functionality at that point, but still a worthy destination for a line at some point.
Any route down 10th that connects the airport to downtown to zoo would be a hybrid of light rail/streetcar. You need it to go fast down Abbott from Soccer stadium to airport, but creep through downtown. I know this might disappoint some, but the airport segment is not catered to locals going on vacation. That segment would be all about bringing in business travelers and out of town visitors for tourist dollars. This tourist train would connect all the major attractions down 10th at a slower pace. Meanwhile a faster bus going down 13th...no different than Farnam Streetcar and Dodge ORBT running in tandem. (slow and fast nearly side by side)

I have suggested to Metro to start a 10th street bus line. Run the line as if it was rail and see how people perceive it. It would be interesting to see what happens after 5pm at the zoo. I would think the added accessibility would take pressure off the zoo during peak times. You could park in downtown and ride into the zoo. Who knows? Maybe the zoo one day will build a garage to save on space. Then they could redevelop the outer edge of their parking lot to an animal themed lodge/hotel/resort. If that was the case, having a rail connect that to downtown would be pretty amazing!
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Garrett
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Garrett »

Dusty wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 8:26 pm
Garrett wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:20 am
skinzfan23 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 8:59 am Yeah I don't know why that keeps getting mentioned as well. Sometimes I almost wonder if its to keep people from talking. There are so many in the metro that know nothing about how a streetcar works. All I ever hear is that we need it to go to the airport and the zoo. (in my opinion, neither are a good option)
I'd say the zoo is a pretty good destination. The Littles Italy and Bohemia have been developing nicely, and the zoo is the number 1 tourist destination in the state, though the only drawback being that the zoo closes at 5 so the line would lose some of its functionality at that point, but still a worthy destination for a line at some point.
Any route down 10th that connects the airport to downtown to zoo would be a hybrid of light rail/streetcar. You need it to go fast down Abbott from Soccer stadium to airport, but creep through downtown. I know this might disappoint some, but the airport segment is not catered to locals going on vacation. That segment would be all about bringing in business travelers and out of town visitors for tourist dollars. This tourist train would connect all the major attractions down 10th at a slower pace. Meanwhile a faster bus going down 13th...no different than Farnam Streetcar and Dodge ORBT running in tandem. (slow and fast nearly side by side)

I have suggested to Metro to start a 10th street bus line. Run the line as if it was rail and see how people perceive it. It would be interesting to see what happens after 5pm at the zoo. I would think the added accessibility would take pressure off the zoo during peak times. You could park in downtown and ride into the zoo. Who knows? Maybe the zoo one day will build a garage to save on space. Then they could redevelop the outer edge of their parking lot to an animal themed lodge/hotel/resort. If that was the case, having a rail connect that to downtown would be pretty amazing!
Oh no, the airport via Abbott is an awful destination. I was solely saying a route to the zoo is a decent one.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by halgy »

Garrett wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:20 am I'd say the zoo is a pretty good destination. The Littles Italy and Bohemia have been developing nicely, and the zoo is the number 1 tourist destination in the state, though the only drawback being that the zoo closes at 5 so the line would lose some of its functionality at that point, but still a worthy destination for a line at some point.
My wonder is if the zoo could act as remote parking for downtown. It would be super easy for tourists to get to, being just off of the interstate. They could park at the zoo for free and take the streetcar up for their activities. At the end of the night, they skip all of the traffic downtown, take the streetcar back to their car, and off they go.

But regardless, I think there is so much development potential along 10th/13th street that this route is one of the best extensions at the moment.
Garrett wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 8:54 pm Oh no, the airport via Abbott is an awful destination. I was solely saying a route to the zoo is a decent one.
Would the airport extension be workable if the route was in its own right of way, rather than on Abbott itself, so that it is out of traffic? It could also just go directly from the soccer stadium to the airport, operating like light rail for that one segment. I understand that in a vacuum, proper light rail would a better method. But unless we're going to install a larger light rail network with it, a streetcar would be much more convenient for travelers. And I don't see us getting light rail anytime soon (but I've been wrong before).

But as others have said, the first step is to add busses along those routes as a proof of concept. I have no issues with busses, as long as the schedules are good. But regardless of the solution, we need some sort of decent public transit to/from the airport.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Dusty »

halgy wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2024 7:38 am
Garrett wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:20 am Oh no, the airport via Abbott is an awful destination. I was solely saying a route to the zoo is a decent one.
Would the airport extension be workable if the route was in its own right of way, rather than on Abbott itself, so that it is out of traffic? It could also just go directly from the soccer stadium to the airport, operating like light rail for that one segment. I understand that in a vacuum, proper light rail would a better method. But unless we're going to install a larger light rail network with it, a streetcar would be much more convenient for travelers. And I don't see us getting light rail anytime soon (but I've been wrong before).

But as others have said, the first step is to add busses along those routes as a proof of concept. I have no issues with busses, as long as the schedules are good. But regardless of the solution, we need some sort of decent public transit to/from the airport.
This is how I see the Abbott Drive to Airport to work. Bust out the medians and run it center lane running protected from traffic. The airport via Abbott is NOT a destination, but more of a gateway/entry point to network. Again...this would be a massive power move to attract tourism dollars. Getting out of towners to fly into Eppley, ride the rail, spend 1-3 days, spend tons of money, and leave. Less travelers renting cars= less parking congestion in downtown/zoo. I say change Metro's 106- "Airport Connector" to run this and collect data for the route.

I know locals really want a dedicated line to the airport. In order for that to be successful, you need a central point/hub where multiple lines feed into. From there you can fill a bus or train as an express option to the airport.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by NEDodger »

ORBT to the airport. That’s the only thing that makes sense here, mass transit wise.

There is zero reason to put extremely high dollar infrastructure for a 3 mile stretch that has zero development opportunity when current needs are being easily met.

On the business traveler front….why on earth would we ditch having out-of-town businesses paying into our city economy via rental cars, Ubers, hotel parking charges, etc…..to instead have US have to pay for their transportation?

Business meetings aren’t getting canceled because there isn’t rail transit between the airport and downtown.

Tourists aren’t bypassing Omaha because there isn’t rail transit between the airport and downtown.

The ROI on this is nonsense. We’re able to make money on these corporations purchasing these services from us….but ditch that so we can plunk down 400 million dollars just because?
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by almighty_tuna »

Yep. I love rail transportation, but it just doesn't make sense to build a line to the airport. Like NEDodger said, service the airport frequently and conspicuously with ORBT. Market the heck out of it, put Eppley Airfield wraps on the bus, give it a dedicated lane on Abbott and Terminal Drive, and make sure it's luggage friendly. Make the airport loop route stops traveler friendly with screens displaying Eppley departure info and live ORBT location, extra large to accommodate luggage, etc. It has ONE JOB, get people from Eppley to downtown and back.

Run a limited circuitous route from OMA to downtown stops which intersect with the streetcar and Dodge St ORBT routes, ie:
- Eppley
- 14th & Cuming
- 12th & Harney
- Capitol District/10th
- ...back to OMA
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by FishFighter92 »

I feel like there should be two threads going. An actual factual based thread of the streetcar design and construction, and then a different thread for people to post their opinions of theoretical ideas.

So far we have a path, streetcar manufacturer, a few tid bits on the construction path, and some kind of a timeline.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Louie »

FishFighter92 wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2024 10:37 am I feel like there should be two threads going. An actual factual based thread of the streetcar design and construction, and then a different thread for people to post their opinions of theoretical ideas.

So far we have a path, streetcar manufacturer, a few tid bits on the construction path, and some kind of a timeline.
If that were the way this forum worked, this thread would be very quiet.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Brad »

FishFighter92 wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2024 10:37 am I feel like there should be two threads going. An actual factual based thread of the streetcar design and construction, and then a different thread for people to post their opinions of theoretical ideas.
On big projects we have started a separate thread for Construction, but not until the actual construction begins.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by TitosBuritoBarn »

NEDodger wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:38 pm
On the business traveler front….why on earth would we ditch having out-of-town businesses paying into our city economy via rental cars, Ubers, hotel parking charges, etc…..to instead have US have to pay for their transportation?
The need for less hotel parking and rental cars potentially frees up land for uses that generate greater property taxes on top of sales taxes.

However, I doubt a lot of business travelers would trade these things for a streetcar in Omaha. Transit tends to make more sense to business travelers in places where congestion is high. When LAX is finally connected to its rental car facilities as well as the rest of the city by people mover and heavy rail transit, they estimate it will eliminate 42 million vehicle miles per year to the airport. In congested LA, that's significant. In Omaha it won't do much for traffic.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by FishFighter92 »

Brad wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2024 11:47 am
FishFighter92 wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2024 10:37 am I feel like there should be two threads going. An actual factual based thread of the streetcar design and construction, and then a different thread for people to post their opinions of theoretical ideas.
On big projects we have started a separate thread for Construction, but not until the actual construction begins.
Sounds good to me.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by FishFighter92 »

If we're talking zoo/Bohemia, then are we going over the tracks on 10th or building a new bridge for the tracks at 13th?
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by nebport5 »

FishFighter92 wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2024 9:01 am If we're talking zoo/Bohemia, then are we going over the tracks on 10th or building a new bridge for the tracks at 13th?
Going over 10th St. I believe the suggested route would turn west at Pacific to 13th St, then on to the zoo. I'd suggest searching through the earlier parts of this thread where this has been discussed.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Garrett »

FishFighter92 wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2024 9:01 am If we're talking zoo/Bohemia, then are we going over the tracks on 10th or building a new bridge for the tracks at 13th?

Image

This image with a bunch of possible extensions has cropped up a few different times in Nebraska Examiner articles
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by MetcalfeHarrison »

Garrett wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2024 11:03 am
FishFighter92 wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2024 9:01 am If we're talking zoo/Bohemia, then are we going over the tracks on 10th or building a new bridge for the tracks at 13th?

Image

This image with a bunch of possible extensions has cropped up a few different times in Nebraska Examiner articles
Thanks for posting this, I wonder how much work would have to go into the 10th Street bridge over the tracks to make it streetcar-worthy. The bridges is still pretty new so hopefully it would be an easy retrofit to add the tracks on.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by F0R_L1F3 »

Thought this might have to go here, https://metrosmartcities.org/project/ma ... bikeway-2/

Looks like they're working on a design for a permeant design and some renderings are out. The current bikeway is closing on September 3, 2024 and I know it'll be for the streetcar but I hope they make a temporary one for the time being because that'd be awful for the only protected bike lane to be removed for a while.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by MadJack »

F0R_L1F3 wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2024 6:51 pm Thought this might have to go here, https://metrosmartcities.org/project/ma ... bikeway-2/

Looks like they're working on a design for a permeant design and some renderings are out. The current bikeway is closing on September 3, 2024 and I know it'll be for the streetcar but I hope they make a temporary one for the time being because that'd be awful for the only protected bike lane to be removed for a while.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Renovator2559 »

We are not ready for transit options to the export with our current size as a city. Hotel shuttles are enough for now.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Athomsfere »

I saw a headline on Google News that there are streetcar updates. But it linked to Youtube so I have no idea what the "updates" were.

Yet.

I need to go check the actual sites for what the updates might be.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by S.O.Boy »

https://techxplore.com/news/2024-09-con ... rming.html

A city's streetcar system can be many things. But it can't be everything. New research from the University of Kansas has found that cities with underperforming streetcar systems often get there by setting too many—and sometimes conflicting—goals for what they want the transit systems to accomplish.

Joel Mendez, assistant professor of public affairs & administration at KU, conducted a study in which he analyzed streetcar systems from around the United States. He then focused on two cities with high-performing systems and two with poor-performing streetcars to see what differences caused the disparities. Results showed it is a case of placemaking vs. place taking, or focusing on a streetcar as an economic developmental tool versus a system that takes passengers where they want to go.

The findings are published in the Journal of Planning Education and Research.

Over the past decade, more than $1 billion has been invested in streetcar systems across the nation.

"The reality is most systems are not doing great in terms of attracting passengers," Mendez said. "This research was geared toward understanding what's driving performance outcomes in these streetcar systems. I explored the role which goal tension plays in this situation as past research has found that transit projects can pursue as many as 25 distinct and often conflicting goals."

Such goals commonly include improving air quality, reducing car traffic, increasing mobility for low-income residents and economic development. While all the goals have merit, Mendez said they can often contradict each other.

For the study, Mendez selected two cities with high-performing streetcar systems: Kansas City, Missouri, and Tucson, Arizona. He also selected two underperforming cities, Atlanta and Cincinnati. He examined performance metrics, system policies, location characteristics and planning documents, and interviewed 40 people involved in the planning and development of the four systems. Interviewees were asked what influenced decisions that shaped the streetcar systems in their respective city.

Mendez found that systems that prioritized economic development in decision making tended to perform poorly. The most successful systems were in cities that emphasized system performance and placed streetcar systems in areas where people lived, worked and wanted to go for entertainment, recreational and personal reasons.

"In cities that prioritized economic development, decisions reflected that focus," Mendez said. "For example, if you look at corridors where poor performing systems were placed, you will find twice the number of vacant parcels and properties. Such placement can maximize the economic development impact of the streetcar, but it limits its ability to serve the immediate needs of the public."

Riders of such systems often indicated that they did not use the streetcar, as it did not take them to where they wanted to go. Such placement often reflected where decision makers wanted development to go. Anticipated development, if it does come to fruition, can take time and result in the presence of empty streetcars in the meantime.

"This can sour people on the idea of streetcars and affect both political and public perceptions. Plans for expansion won't happen if employers, workers and leaders think it's a waste. I think it's important for cities to focus on passenger attraction," Mendez said.

Kansas City and Tucson, the cities with high-performing systems, focused more on place taking, or transporting people to highly desired locations, such as downtown areas with high densities of jobs, entertainment, dining and other features.

The study also found that fare policy played a role in ridership numbers. In systems where the fares were not coordinated with other modes of transit, ridership suffered.

Portland, Oregon installed a streetcar system about two decades ago and saw immediate success. That, coupled with an ongoing availability of federal funds for such systems, spurred many other cities to follow suit in the past decade. Other cities continue to plan streetcar systems, and Mendez said the findings could help planners, developers, policymakers and the public set goals that give such transit systems a chance for success. His larger body of research examines transit planning and policy and how it intersects with equity and future work will examine how private actors influence streetcar development, and whether they are doing so in ways that benefit themselves over public interests.

Meanwhile, cities with high-performing streetcar systems are showing that taking people where they want to go is the surest indicator of a successful plan.

"You have to make it easy to get to if you want people to use it," Mendez said.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Garrett »

By the metrics they analyzed, sounds like Omaha is indeed set up for success then.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Busguy2010 »

It's an economic development tool. We've known this for forever. What it might end up doing is shift the inconvenience of driving to living in an overpriced apartment 10 floors up somewhere. If you lived in Benson or Dundee, work Downtown or UNMC, and moved to 24th and Farnam, there probably would be net zero real benefit to your daily life.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by FishFighter92 »

Busguy2010 wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:50 pm living in an overpriced apartment 10 floors up somewhere.
That's the hope!
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by halgy »

Agreed, looks like Omaha is in a good spot. Development is a primary goal, but it is being accomplished by connecting a few already-dense parts of the city where people want to go.

It isn't a silver bullet, but the study seems to say that trying to make it one is what causes issues. My hope is that we can use the initial route as a backbone to build out additional transit and development to solve more problems.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Busguy2010 »

I think ours will do a good job as a transportation tool too, though. This farnam route is clearly the best we can do and I'm glad it got identified. It really connects all our densest areas, which are that way because of the previous system. Add in a real grocery store and some more every day businesses and I really think there will be no such novelty to it.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by buildomaha »

Since they are doing the farnam/harney coulplet, I’m hoping they can eventually give that section of track grade separation (or some sort of median keeping automobiles out of the streetcar lane) and signal priority.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Busguy2010 »

Thought itd be more appropriate here.
Garrett wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 11:08 am I looked through some documents, and the Farnam route has been the preferred alternative since the 2010 Downtown Omaha Master Plan, so not 25 years like I said, but still a fairly long time.
I don't recall that. As far as I remember, the alternatives analysis which began in 2011 and concluded in 2014 was the true inception of the Farnam route. Link if you care to, I'd be interested in seeing that. If not, all good.
Athomsfere wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:29 am When I moved here and joined this forum eventually: I remember the second street car / LRT study came out right around then. I believe there was another from around 2007.
That was Mike Fahey's proposal. It was a circulator route to go up 10th, Webster (unironically now called Mike Fahey), to 20th, then down to Harney i believe and continuous loop. The baseball stadium was like what Mutual is now to the Farnam route, but taxpayers funded. It would have likely been one of those failed concepts mentioned above. Glad it didn't happen. The other one floated in the 90's was Hal Daubs proposal of the "heritage" streetcar route connecting the Airport to the Zoo by way of 10th. It's sister project would have been CHI Health Center. Also glad we're going the Farnam route, it just makes the most sense.
nebport5 wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:48 am In terms of it being all about Mutual don't forget UNMC also had a vested interest in the streetcar before project Beacon was announced.
True, they do have significant skin in the game. But I consider them the backseat driver of a tandem bike.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Garrett »

Busguy2010 wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 11:30 am Thought itd be more appropriate here.
Garrett wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 11:08 am I looked through some documents, and the Farnam route has been the preferred alternative since the 2010 Downtown Omaha Master Plan, so not 25 years like I said, but still a fairly long time.
I don't recall that. As far as I remember, the alternatives analysis which began in 2011 and concluded in 2014 was the true inception of the Farnam route. Link if you care to, I'd be interested in seeing that. If not, all good.
Here you go
https://urbanplanning.cityofomaha.org/i ... 30_web.pdf
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Busguy2010 »

Thanks. I see that so 2010 it is. Though I'll say as part of a master plan, these things are vague by nature. If you look back at the history of it, UNMC probably started as the main driver of it. But now I think Mutual is, given how much the area has changed since 2010, how much land they own or are trying to redevelop. Bottom line is without the new HQ, I don't think this is happening yet. The new HQ project set the streetcar off.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by mcarch »

Garrett wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:54 pm By the metrics they analyzed, sounds like Omaha is indeed set up for success then.
Um... no...

"Mendez found that systems that prioritized economic development in decision making tended to perform poorly. The most successful systems were in cities that emphasized system performance and placed streetcar systems in areas where people lived, worked and wanted to go for entertainment, recreational and personal reasons."

"Kansas City and Tucson, the cities with high-performing systems, focused more on place taking, or transporting people to highly desired locations, such as downtown areas with high densities of jobs, entertainment, dining and other features."

It has also already been said it's not about transporting people.

When the project first came out and the routes were starting to be finalized, I asked several people questions about the Streetcar. Please note, that my take is that I'd like the Streetcar, but it doesn't meet the demands that it should.

One person said, I go to shows at the Orpheum. A bunch of us gather and I drive all the way downtown. I could take ORBIT, but I'd still have to drive half-way to Westroads. That's all good getting down there for dinner, but Buses stop at 10pm. Shows don't usually end until 10pm or after. So, ORBIT is out. But if the Streetcar ran all the way down Dodge Street, I'd do a Park and Ride.

Others stated that it doesn't go to the Airport or Zoo where people want to go.

Many were not against the Streetcar itself, but its poorly thought-out route and its end points.

They know it's being used as Mutual of Omaha Commuter Between the new Tower and their existing Campus to placate their employees who didn't want to travel all the way downtown (even just a few blocks more).
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by halgy »

mcarch wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 11:52 pm "The most successful systems were in cities that emphasized system performance and placed streetcar systems in areas where people lived, worked and wanted to go for entertainment, recreational and personal reasons."

"Kansas City and Tucson, the cities with high-performing systems, focused more on place taking, or transporting people to highly desired locations, such as downtown areas with high densities of jobs, entertainment, dining and other features."
I don't know if you're going to find a 3-mile route with a higher density of "jobs, entertainment, dining and other features". The streetcar won't help tourists get downtown, but it will help them move around once they're here (park once, dinner in the Old Market, show at the CHI, drinks in the Blackstone). It will also be great transit for the many thousands of people who live down here, and the many thousands more who will move downtown as new developments are built.
mcarch wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 11:52 pm One person said, I go to shows at the Orpheum. A bunch of us gather and I drive all the way downtown. I could take ORBIT, but I'd still have to drive half-way to Westroads. That's all good getting down there for dinner, but Buses stop at 10pm. Shows don't usually end until 10pm or after. So, ORBIT is out. But if the Streetcar ran all the way down Dodge Street, I'd do a Park and Ride.
If the success criterion for transporting people is that it connects to WestO, then no streetcar route is going to work, especially if you're so far west that Westroads is "halfway". If you're okay with a park and ride, the next step to that goal is to extend the ORBT out to Elkhorn or wherever you are. Also FWIW, the ORBT runs until 11:30, except on Sundays.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by almighty_tuna »

halgy wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:06 amIt will also be great transit for the many thousands of people who live down here, and the many thousands more who will move downtown as new developments are built.
Not to mention convention goers, since the convention center expansion and accompanying second hotel are hot topics at the moment.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Garrett »

mcarch wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 11:52 pm
Garrett wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:54 pm By the metrics they analyzed, sounds like Omaha is indeed set up for success then.
Um... no...

"Mendez found that systems that prioritized economic development in decision making tended to perform poorly. The most successful systems were in cities that emphasized system performance and placed streetcar systems in areas where people lived, worked and wanted to go for entertainment, recreational and personal reasons."

"Kansas City and Tucson, the cities with high-performing systems, focused more on place taking, or transporting people to highly desired locations, such as downtown areas with high densities of jobs, entertainment, dining and other features."

It has also already been said it's not about transporting people.

When the project first came out and the routes were starting to be finalized, I asked several people questions about the Streetcar. Please note, that my take is that I'd like the Streetcar, but it doesn't meet the demands that it should.

One person said, I go to shows at the Orpheum. A bunch of us gather and I drive all the way downtown. I could take ORBIT, but I'd still have to drive half-way to Westroads. That's all good getting down there for dinner, but Buses stop at 10pm. Shows don't usually end until 10pm or after. So, ORBIT is out. But if the Streetcar ran all the way down Dodge Street, I'd do a Park and Ride.

Others stated that it doesn't go to the Airport or Zoo where people want to go.

Many were not against the Streetcar itself, but its poorly thought-out route and its end points.

They know it's being used as Mutual of Omaha Commuter Between the new Tower and their existing Campus to placate their employees who didn't want to travel all the way downtown (even just a few blocks more).
Um... yes.

I see it's time for our semi-annual explanation of what a streetcar is and why the route they are building is the best possible starter route.

First of all, the article that you so kindly read, quoted, highlighted AND underlined is talking about streetcar systems like those it discusses in Kansas City and Atlanta. A line that runs all the way down Dodge Street would be a light rail line, not a streetcar line, and would be a completely different form of service than the systems that the article discusses. None of the successful or failed examples discussed in this article connect to an airport.

This streetcar line runs through the densest parts of the city for residents, jobs, and entertainment options. That is a pure fact. And, according to the article, that is a metric of a good performing line. The only less developed components are eastern midtown and western downtown near I-480, and even that section clocks in at around 9,000 people per square mile, one of the highest densities in Nebraska. Employer wise, I don't think I need to go over the fact that this line connects dense nodes of jobs at UNMC, Midtown, and Downtown. And as for entertainment and recreation, again, I don't think I need to explain that Blackstone, the Old Market, and several recreation and entertainment venues and institutions are all along this route.

And let's talk about the airport. A line that just connects downtown to the airport via Abbott drive is a terrible use for a streetcar. Eppley sees about 15,000 passengers per day. Now you may thing, wow, what a great source of passengers. Except, how many of those passengers are going downtown, vs out to Dundee, Miracle Hills, Elkhorn, etc. Portland, which has an airport that has 3 times as many PAX as Omaha and a well developed regional light rail network that connects all part of the city, only sees about 1,500 passengers per day at its airport MAX station. Omaha would probably barely scratch 100 if its lucky. But lets say you are indeed determined to take a hypothetical streetcar to the airport. How many times per year do you think you'd ride it? Let's say you're a relatively frequent traveler, and travel once per month. So, you drive downtown, park, and ride the flashy streetcar shuttle to the airport and back when you return. You will be set to ride the streetcar 24 times per year. Yippee!

Now let's talk about the contrast of someone who uses the streetcar just to get to work and home. Assuming our second rider lives in Blackstone, works downtown, and rides the streetcar every day to work in a 5 day workweek. That person will ride the streetcar 500 times per year just to get to work and back. That does not include extra trips our Blackstone resident may take to go get dinner in the Old Market, see a show at the Steelhouse, go spend some time at Gene Leahy, a visit to Joslyn, or a Creighton Game at CHI. The streetcar will be running until 2 AM. Operationally, it will be the best in the entire country, another marker of success that the article that you yourself highlighted examines.

I do agree, the Zoo is a good future destination for the streetcar, but not just for the Zoo's sake, but because of the density and development of the neighborhoods south of Downtown, such as Little Italy, Little Bohemia, and Vinton Street. The Zoo, in this case, is just a little bonus, because our aim is to develop an all day, 365 transportation option, and the zoo is relatively seasonal, and closes at 5 PM, hardly a priority destination for a system that runs until 2 AM.


So um... yes, the Omaha streetcar system is indeed set up to meet every metric of success that this article identifies because it is a system that will be good for daily users, not the occasional Omaha airport goer.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by skinzfan23 »

Thanks again Garrett for laying that out...I am with you on all the points you made.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by TitosBuritoBarn »

I'll third the points you made, Garrett.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Louie »

Garrett, you dropped this
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Athomsfere »

Garrett wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:42 am A whole lotta right on the money stuff.
As always, right on the money. So glad we have you. I'm buying you spiritual beers right now in my head.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by Dusty »

I feel like many of us have made these same comments as Garrett mentioned throughout the forums. All you can do is keeping educating people on the benefits it will bring. Some people will be skeptical until they ride it. Then they will act like they were supporters all along.

I don't look at the article as place taking vs economic development. Successful streetcars need both in tandem to work. I think the big difference of success comes down to route design and ability to make places of value developed along the line.

Route design -If you look at the ridership numbers of modern streetcars, the highest ones use a linear line. You are moving in a direction to go somewhere but have to ability to hop from one attraction/district. This is a dual function. You can ride the streetcar to connect to another line. (bus, rail, etc.) The cities on the bottom (Atlanta, Milwaukee) use a circuitous route or loop. This is a tourist hopper and nothing more. This limits ridership for locals because it doesn't take you places outside of the loop.

Economic Development- Some of these lines build with the hopes it will bring new development to support it. Some of these deals fall through and don't get built due funding. They are banking on these new districts to support it. This is why you see some of the linear lines growing slow but pick up momentum of riders as the projects get done.

Omaha is not creating new districts from scratch. We already have established districts/zones that we are beefing up with density. We have the metrics to be one of the most successful modern streetcars in the US. A linear design and strong economic development to support it.

Here are the annual ridership numbers I could find from end of 2023
Portland- 2.8 million
Kansas City- 1.8 million
Tucson- 1.7 million
Seattle- 1.3 million
Detroit- 896,000
Cincinnati- 846,000
Washington DC- 721,000
Dallas 701,000
Milwaukee 453,000
Atlanta 184,000

Note: I left off the Heritage/Historic lines. Also, Salt Lake City since they combined light rail and streetcar ridership together.
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Re: Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Post by skinzfan23 »

Thanks for posting those numbers, I have seen the Milwaukee 2-3 times and there is never anyone on it. I think Omaha will blow theirs out of the water. Especially at first, it will be hard to get on b/c there will be so many people checking it out. Even those that were huge skeptics, like you mentioned.