Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[Linkin5]

This may have been mentioned here already, but Eric (Zephyr) on GrowOmaha said that UNMC is trying to finalize their streetcar plans so it can open at the same time as the rest of the system

UNMC is going to have their own Streetcar system that connects to the Omaha streetcar?

The extension into UNMC’s campus that was pulled along with the north downtown branch

Ah ok so open at the same time as the future North downtown extension? I apologize I’m not paying as close attention to this as I should.

[skip]

This may be an odd question, especially coming from someone who lives nowhere near the streetcar corridor but is still very interested in seeing it happen, but in all reality does anyone think there is any possible chance the streetcar project could or would be stopped at this point if McConnel were elected? I mean with the streetcar maintenance facility currently under construction, utilities relocations, and the Harney and Farnam bridges set to be replaced starting early next year? I suppose he could put it to a public vote. Really though wouldn't this be like staring a home remodeling project, telling the contractor to just to leave it unfinished, and still be liable for the bills?

by June 2025, I'm assuming at least $100-150 million has been pumped into this project. Design costs, utilities costs, storage facility downtown, streetcars, etc. Cancelling this would be throwing away wayyyy too much money, but the media have not made a news article on that.

plus UNMC publicly said they are in final stages of design. If beloved UNMC is saying this, no way it will get cancelled.

[Garrett]

This may have been mentioned here already, but Eric (Zephyr) on GrowOmaha said that UNMC is trying to finalize their streetcar plans so it can open at the same time as the rest of the system

UNMC is going to have their own Streetcar system that connects to the Omaha streetcar?

The extension into UNMC’s campus that was pulled along with the north downtown branch

Ah ok so open at the same time as the future North downtown extension? I apologize I’m not paying as close attention to this as I should.

Ah, no.


The segments marked as "future" in this map in North Downtown and to 42nd St were proposed as part of the starter line, but these were cut back last year (?) as UNMC wanted more time to study what the streetcar through their campus would look like and the city wanted more time to look at what a Northward line would look like. UNMC is apparently close to finalizing their details and has previously said they will pay for their segment themselves. Assuming they have their proposal soon enough, it should be able to open along with the rest of the starter line as one cohesive line. Separately, the city just started studying an extension of the streetcar line into North Omaha with a federal grant

[F0R_L1F3]

I think this will be great. We have so many projects being developed for the city with the first starter line already. Imagine the possibility with the streetcar extending into different areas such as UNMC. There's already demand for student housing as mentioned with the project and in one of the Saddle Creek renderings, a transit center was planned there. I don't know if it'll still be there but if the project comes quicker and there's demand there, NEXT can get off the ground faster then it should and lead to further development. And who knows, maybe if that area densifies quickly and there's no room, it can push towards the edges of Blackstone near Clarkson College and redevelop a lot of lots there. I just have a lot of hope for this project because it keeps extending through key areas and we have so many people on board. People reference the failures of Oklahoma City so frequently but their line doesn't really encompass much of an area where it supports so much demand compared to a line like Omaha. I can't wait to see the successes of Kansas City especially with their Main Street extension.

[iamjacobm]

There is a webinar for a construction update on January 8th for anyone interested. You have to sign up prior to the meeting. https://omahastreetcar.org/

[nativeomahan]

Living only part of the year in Omaha I get the perspective of what other cities do with regard to public transportation, and it’s interesting to see how different locales handle basically the same issue (transporting lots of people efficiently) in a sometimes widely divergent manner.
My adoptive home of Puerto Vallarta has essentially the same metro population as Lancaster County. Recently the government or somebody released transportation stats as part of their announced rollout of 20 new 100% electric busses, which will all run on the busy coastal highway route, which might run 5 or 6 miles, plus a few more miles inland. No torn up streets for months on end (not that they don’t seem to love doing this). The busses will run every 5-10 minutes on average.
The existing city bus system moves on average 105,000 passengers per day, with some weekdays seeing 125,000 passengers. About 12,000 passengers ride for free, as they are students, disabled or otherwise qualify to skip the $10 peso (about 50¢) fare. All of the busses are supposed to be air conditioned, but many have broken A/C units.
Some released stats:



My husband and I use the bus system when we aren’t in a hurry, as we are a half mile walk to the main coastal bus line. Ubers are quicker but much more expensive. It’s a great way to rub shoulders (literally) with people from all walks of life.

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Construction trailer & site fencing in place on vacant lot next to I-480 and bridges to be replaced.

[meliketrains]

They have torn up the northwest corner of 20th and Farnam no less than 4 times in the last 6 months and the latest iteration provides no safe way to actually cross the street at this spot. They couldn't have torn it up just once and had everyone do their work back to back?? Why pour new concrete over gas mains if the water guys are just gonna dig it all up in two weeks anyways??

[skinzfan23]

They have torn up the northwest corner of 20th and Farnam no less than 4 times in the last 6 months and the latest iteration provides no safe way to actually cross the street at this spot. They couldn't have torn it up just once and had everyone do their work back to back?? Why pour new concrete over gas mains if the water guys are just gonna dig it all up in two weeks anyways??

haha, sounds like the stuff they do in Aksarben Village. They had torn up the sidewalk and planters at least 4-5 times in the past 3-4 years in front of the building across from the movie theather.

[meliketrains]

They have torn up the northwest corner of 20th and Farnam no less than 4 times in the last 6 months and the latest iteration provides no safe way to actually cross the street at this spot. They couldn't have torn it up just once and had everyone do their work back to back?? Why pour new concrete over gas mains if the water guys are just gonna dig it all up in two weeks anyways??

haha, sounds like the stuff they do in Aksarben Village. They had torn up the sidewalk and planters at least 4-5 times in the past 3-4 years in front of the building across from the movie theather.

I have a lot of respect for our Public Works guys in Omaha, but I do wish they were administratively better at managing the utilities companies. I suspect what happens right now is gas/water, internet companies, and OPPD all schedule their work on their own calendars, and then Omaha hands out the permits for work as requested. What should actually be happening is Omaha provides a window in which the utility companies can complete their work, the parties bid/negotiate for time and logistics of the work, and then they internally shift work around to compensate for the limited windows.

The public is expected to shoulder the burden of this inefficiency with the additional cost of our safety. People blow through that intersection constantly and it's only a matter of time before I get clipped.

[MetcalfeHarrison]

And they haven't even bid out the water and sewer package in this area, which will probably be the slowest part. I think it ends up around 25' from street elevation to the 100 year old brick sewer so it'll be messy once they get to that.

[Mapguy]

On regular projects there actually is a collaboration of time-lines between Omaha and the Utility Companies.

What you have here is a project that the utility companies were given maybe 6 months lead time to design and construct. This is an extremely short window to design and bid-out. To expect everything to be done on time and coordinated between 3-6 parties (water/sewer/gas/electric/cable/phone/storm) is unreasonable.

Do you want the job done on time? Or done efficently? Because everything can be coordinated if you have about 3 years of planning to design and hammer out who is doing what and when.

Why not leave the pits open? Well idk maybe because water and poop freeze?

[Louie]

Why not leave the pits open? Well idk maybe because water and poop freeze?

ok sold, lets be patient, im not interested in the iceberg terd sinkholes

[iamjacobm]

[skinzfan23]

Omaha Streetcar Authority approves $26.7 million for new maintenance facility

The city’s streetcar board authorized the building of a multi-million-dollar maintenance building on Monday.

Sampson Construction Co. Inc. was the “lowest and best bidder” out of three, according to the Omaha Streetcar Authority. The winning bid for the maintenance facility construction was submitted on Dec. 18 at $26,680,000. Hausmann Construction submitted a bid for $27.9 million; Hawkins Construction Co. bid $29 million.

[thenewguy]

Wowt's comments about this are expectedly ridiculous.

[Garrett]

Wowt's comments about this are expectedly ridiculous.

I decided to do a little dive and look at comments on WOWT about the Riverfront redevelopment around when it was first announced in 2018. I took these most liked comments from this Facebook post. Seem familiar?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1MmbCtexV3/

[Dusty]

I was just going to ask if the maintenance facility could expand to handle additional lines. BAM! The article answered that.

The new facility will have three bays: two for repairs and maintenance and a third for cleaning and washing the cars. The building will also have offices for OSA personnel and a small command center that coordinates vehicle movement.

Current facility plans would allow it to keep up with maintenance of a fleet of up to 10-12 vehicles; and house up to six streetcar vehicles in the facility at a time, extending to seven if necessary.

County Commissioner Hal Daub asked during Monday’s meeting whether the facility could be built out in the future, should the streetcar expand into Council Bluffs or out to Eppley Airfield. A contractor on the project said maintenance of additional vehicles could likely still occur at the recently approved facility, but storage of additional vehicles might require additional contstruction or acquisition of property elsewhere.

I have mentioned before I want a 10th street line. This would tie into the maintenance facility. You could use the space by Durham Museum as an overflow storage yard for the other trains.

[mistergutierrez]

Wowt's comments about this are expectedly ridiculous.

I decided to do a little dive and look at comments WOWT about the Riverfront redevelopment around when it was first announced in 2018. I took these most liked comments from this Facebook post. Seem familiar?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1MmbCtexV3/

These people shouldn´t be allowed to step into the Gene Leahy Mall or the Riverfront Park

[omahahawk]

Omaha Streetcar Authority approves $26.7 million for new maintenance facility

The city’s streetcar board authorized the building of a multi-million-dollar maintenance building on Monday.

Sampson Construction Co. Inc. was the “lowest and best bidder” out of three, according to the Omaha Streetcar Authority. The winning bid for the maintenance facility construction was submitted on Dec. 18 at $26,680,000. Hausmann Construction submitted a bid for $27.9 million; Hawkins Construction Co. bid $29 million.

I thought construction had already begun on this or was it just site prep?

[MetcalfeHarrison]

Omaha Streetcar Authority approves $26.7 million for new maintenance facility

The city’s streetcar board authorized the building of a multi-million-dollar maintenance building on Monday.

Sampson Construction Co. Inc. was the “lowest and best bidder” out of three, according to the Omaha Streetcar Authority. The winning bid for the maintenance facility construction was submitted on Dec. 18 at $26,680,000. Hausmann Construction submitted a bid for $27.9 million; Hawkins Construction Co. bid $29 million.

I thought construction had already begun on this or was it just site prep?

Yeah they started work in MECA Lot A but it was just preparing for this contract.

[thenewguy]

Wowt's comments about this are expectedly ridiculous.

I decided to do a little dive and look at comments on WOWT about the Riverfront redevelopment around when it was first announced in 2018. I took these most liked comments from this Facebook post. Seem familiar?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1MmbCtexV3/

Jesus H. Chr!st. These people are absolute |expletive| idiots. The park remodel has been a resounding success. The street car is going to make it explode

[F0R_L1F3]

Seeing the same on the Reddit forum! They talked about the approval of the maintenance facility and making up random theories about how the streetcar will be. I for one will be happy when the streetcar happens! You already have UNMC studying it and putting their money in and the federal government providing a grant to study it through other corridors like towards Creighton University. Their claims of "Mutual of Omaha" waking up one day and wanting a streetcar are absurd! It's already going to be great with it's starter line going through such dense areas and pushing for further development to make our core stronger, let alone expansion to these areas! Their plans were awful as an alternative to the streetcar. One of them tried to argue the "failures of ORBT" because of some random claim about them going to the suburbs completely off par with how the line even works, not even relevant to the bus system.

[Renovator2559]

I have to disagree with the malinformed people. We have so many big scale projects, funded mostly with private donations because our Mayor Jean Stothert has established trust in the community and in getting things done. Also, the mayor has fixed many of the pothole issues, that I no longer experience running over potholes. I am so greatful of all the talented Omaha team and all the appointees of the mayor and the great momentum we have in the urban core, which is benefiting the entire metro.

The malinformed, do not realize that the Riverfront has revitalized downtown and we have a huge magnet of momentum of developers confident in building a strong urban core. The streetcar is the backbone glue that will tie all of our wonderful walkable districts to the downtown and Riverfront!

If the malinformed have this mindset of building something new and abandoning making the downtown urban core strong. May I suggest they look at Des Moines? Des Moines is focused on building something new in the suburbs with little to no activity in their much quieter downtown. All I mostly see in Des Moines downtown, are office to apartment conversions.

[Bob from Omaha]

You who weren't around when the convention center/arena was proposed really missed out. The whiners on the OWH comment areas were screaming that no one comes to Omaha and the proposed cc/a would be a white elephant and a failure. Diane Marie Hayes led the charge on the message boards.

[skinzfan23]

You who weren't around when the convention center/arena was proposed really missed out. The whiners on the OWH comment areas were screaming that no one comes to Omaha and the proposed cc/a would be a white elephant and a failure. Diane Marie Hayes led the charge on the message boards.

Yes I remember those all too well. The same people complained when the Riverfront project was announced. Can you imagine where the city would be without these 3 huge projects.

[Dusty]

Now that the soccer stadium is not going on Gallup campus, any 10th St Streetcar extension can go through Millwork Commons to turn around. I said before if you get one extension off the starter line it needs to be the 10th St corridor.
On the South end you can have it run to the zoo and turn around or create a coupling by cutting over on Williams to 13th.

[halgy]

Now that the soccer stadium is not going on Gallup campus, any 10th St Streetcar extension can go through Millwork Commons to turn around. I said before if you get one extension off the starter line it needs to be the 10th St corridor.
On the South end you can have it run to the zoo and turn around or create a coupling by cutting over on Williams to 13th.

Agreed. Even when the stadium was planned at Gallup, I still thought an extension to Millwork Commons would be a better all-around endpoint. And I see your proposed turnaround route would also clip the east edge of the Creighton campus, which could be nice.

FWIW, I think a pure 10th street line would be better. Close enough to provide service to Little Bohemia, but otherwise avoiding the high traffic on 13th. There also seems like a lot of room for development along 10th. Unless running the streetcar on 13th was the excuse to reduce the traffic some and make 13th more pedestrian friendly.

[Garrett]

Now that the soccer stadium is not going on Gallup campus, any 10th St Streetcar extension can go through Millwork Commons to turn around. I said before if you get one extension off the starter line it needs to be the 10th St corridor.
On the South end you can have it run to the zoo and turn around or create a coupling by cutting over on Williams to 13th.

Agreed. Even when the stadium was planned at Gallup, I still thought an extension to Millwork Commons would be a better all-around endpoint. And I see your proposed turnaround route would also clip the east edge of the Creighton campus, which could be nice.

FWIW, I think a pure 10th street line would be better. Close enough to provide service to Little Bohemia, but otherwise avoiding the high traffic on 13th. There also seems like a lot of room for development along 10th. Unless running the streetcar on 13th was the excuse to reduce the traffic some and make 13th more pedestrian friendly.

I think 10th street is a bit too narrow, and 13th could easily sacrifice a couple lanes for transit lanes.

As for a terminus, the streetcar authority has a map that shows a potential end point on D street at 10th street just south of the Zoo's entrance.

I've mapped out all of the mentioned possible extensions here

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... sp=sharing

[Busguy2010]

I like your idea of looping through Millwork and going over to 17th. I don't think it should go down 13th though. 10th would have to be wide enough as it was a former streetcar route, and 13th is best suited for car and truck traffic.

[Dusty]

I like your idea of looping through Millwork and going over to 17th. I don't think it should go down 13th though. 10th would have to be wide enough as it was a former streetcar route, and 13th is best suited for car and truck traffic.

Yes, pushing it to 17th will pull it though the Builders District/Creighton to finish the loop. If the city were to pursue a North Omaha line on 19th/20th, it would only be 2-3 blocks walk to jump lines.

The South segment of a 10th St line is more complicated. This is why I'm suggesting building it in sections. Phase 1 is North of Leavenworth through Millwork Commons. Phase 2 is South of Leavenworth towards the Zoo. This will give you the extra time to do the necessary studies on the South segment.

Any additional line needs to compliment the starter line and help increase ridership. Once you build that trust, people will be more supportive of the streetcar and any expansion lines.

[Dusty]

Now that the soccer stadium is not going on Gallup campus, any 10th St Streetcar extension can go through Millwork Commons to turn around. I said before if you get one extension off the starter line it needs to be the 10th St corridor.
On the South end you can have it run to the zoo and turn around or create a coupling by cutting over on Williams to 13th.

Agreed. Even when the stadium was planned at Gallup, I still thought an extension to Millwork Commons would be a better all-around endpoint. And I see your proposed turnaround route would also clip the east edge of the Creighton campus, which could be nice.

FWIW, I think a pure 10th street line would be better. Close enough to provide service to Little Bohemia, but otherwise avoiding the high traffic on 13th. There also seems like a lot of room for development along 10th. Unless running the streetcar on 13th was the excuse to reduce the traffic some and make 13th more pedestrian friendly.

I think 10th street is a bit too narrow, and 13th could easily sacrifice a couple lanes for transit lanes.

As for a terminus, the streetcar authority has a map that shows a potential end point on D street at 10th street just south of the Zoo's entrance.

I think it's important to match the mode with the pace of the street. 10th street is a slower pace for cars. Any line down this section would be street running. You might lose a few on street parking stalls to create bump out stations, but you are not really sacrificing any lanes down 10th. Drivers will have to understand this is the slower path. You may have to wait behind a streetcar while boarding. If they want a faster pace, they will have to cut over to 13th where cars are allowed to move faster.

The benefit of running a 10th only line is you create 2 tandem lines to accommodate a different pace. Streetcar on 10th (slow) and Bus on 13th (fast)....just like Farnam streetcar and ORBT on Dodge. I think the big push to cut over on 13th to include Little Bohemia as a destination. The city could make a compromise to accommodate both corridors. For example: Cut over on Pacific to 13th, ride South to D Street to enter the Zoo, then return on 10th to complete the turn around.

Note: I think running 13th in reverse created issues of getting back up Pacific St. This is a pretty steep hill to return. I believe that's why they suggested Williams as an alternative. Less of a grade to climb, but you do cut off part of Little Bohemia.

[Louie]

I think 10th street is a bit too narrow, and 13th could easily sacrifice a couple lanes for transit lanes.

As for a terminus, the streetcar authority has a map that shows a potential end point on D street at 10th street just south of the Zoo's entrance.

I've mapped out all of the mentioned possible extensions here

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... sp=sharing

Curious as to the last bit of track going east on D St, south of the zoo. Is there a reason that it needs a terminus on a road like that and not directly on 13th?

[Garrett]

I think 10th street is a bit too narrow, and 13th could easily sacrifice a couple lanes for transit lanes.

As for a terminus, the streetcar authority has a map that shows a potential end point on D street at 10th street just south of the Zoo's entrance.

I've mapped out all of the mentioned possible extensions here

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... sp=sharing

Curious as to the last bit of track going east on D St, south of the zoo. Is there a reason that it needs a terminus on a road like that and not directly on 13th?

I don’t know the official reasons, but I would say it’s easier to make a layover spot on a more side street than figuring out where to put it on 13th, and it gets people closer to the zoo entrance.

[Mapguy]

I think the zoo extension is a great idea. From an engineering perspective the 10th st viaduct isn't designed to hold the weight of a streetcar and it isn't near the end of its useful life. The 10th st viaduct is also undevelopable as it's an extremely long bridge. Youre talking about having to demo and rebuild a 30-70 million dollar bridge.

13th st is wider, theres more land to be developed, its maybe 10% of the cost to go under the current rail line bridge.

Great discussion.

[Garrett]

I think it's important to match the mode with the pace of the street. 10th street is a slower pace for cars. Any line down this section would be street running. You might lose a few on street parking stalls to create bump out stations, but you are not really sacrificing any lanes down 10th. Drivers will have to understand this is the slower path. You may have to wait behind a streetcar while boarding. If they want a faster pace, they will have to cut over to 13th where cars are allowed to move faster.

The benefit of running a 10th only line is you create 2 tandem lines to accommodate a different pace. Streetcar on 10th (slow) and Bus on 13th (fast)....just like Farnam streetcar and ORBT on Dodge. I think the big push to cut over on 13th to include Little Bohemia as a destination. The city could make a compromise to accommodate both corridors. For example: Cut over on Pacific to 13th, ride South to D Street to enter the Zoo, then return on 10th to complete the turn around.

Note: I think running 13th in reverse created issues of getting back up Pacific St. This is a pretty steep hill to return. I believe that's why they suggested Williams as an alternative. Less of a grade to climb, but you do cut off part of Little Bohemia.

In my opinion, an ideal line to the zoo would have dedicated lanes for most of its run. 13th street has surplus capacity that could go towards space for dedicated lanes down to the zoo, with the main hiccup being the I-80 bridge as I don't think it would be ideal to mix traffic going on and off the interstate with dedicated lanes.

10th street has its appeals, but its also primarily residential, and I don't think you'd have as much potential for development compared to 13th. 10th street only has some small scatterings of commercial development at Hickory Street and Bancroft Street, while the rest is tightly built residential. 13th, in comparison, already has growing historic business district with Little Bohemia, and has a bunch of underused commercial properties that would be ripe for development into mixed-use TOD buildings like Blackstone. Just do a quick comparison of the two on google maps and it's clear that 13th has way stronger development potential compared to 10th.

I'd avoid creating a couplet on both 10th and 13th like the plague though. They're about 1,100 feet apart, or about a 5 minute walk at an average pace, and that would kill ridership appeal. You'd also, in turn, lose a bit of the development appeal. Generally, most of the unsuccessful modern streetcars are built on couplets like that.

I think the zoo extension is a great idea. From an engineering perspective the 10th st viaduct isn't designed to hold the weight of a streetcar and it isn't near the end of its useful life. The 10th st viaduct is also undevelopable as it's an extremely long bridge. Youre talking about having to demo and rebuild a 30-70 million dollar bridge.

13th st is wider, theres more land to be developed, its maybe 10% of the cost to go under the current rail line bridge.

Great discussion.

I'm pretty the 10th St viaduct was built with the idea that it could one day hold a streetcar. I'm pretty sure it would be fine, and I don't know if the logistics to go under the railroad at 13th street are workable either.

[Dusty]

I'd avoid creating a couplet on both 10th and 13th like the plague though. They're about 1,100 feet apart, or about a 5 minute walk at an average pace, and that would kill ridership appeal. You'd also, in turn, lose a bit of the development appeal. Generally, most of the unsuccessful modern streetcars are built on couplets like that.

So you would be against the design of the starter line for same reason? Going down Farnam, cutting over one block, and returning on Harney?

I don't see why they couldn't have converted Farnam to 2-way for the entire corridor. They could have made center lane running the whole path down Farnam as a cleaner linear line.

[Garrett]

I'd avoid creating a couplet on both 10th and 13th like the plague though. They're about 1,100 feet apart, or about a 5 minute walk at an average pace, and that would kill ridership appeal. You'd also, in turn, lose a bit of the development appeal. Generally, most of the unsuccessful modern streetcars are built on couplets like that.

So you would be against the design of the starter line for same reason? Going down Farnam, cutting over one block, and returning on Harney?

I don't see why they couldn't have converted Farnam to 2-way for the entire corridor. They could have made center lane running the whole path down Farnam as a cleaner linear line.

Yeah one of the biggest "flaws" on the starter line is that it's a couplet for part of the run. It's only single block at least, so around 400 feet or less than a 2 minute walk, but still not ideal. For some regional comparisons, OKC's couplet runs on streets that are between 600 and 900 feet apart, and makes an even bigger loop at its northern end. Kansas City's is basically entirely linear except for the small loop in the River Market area. Refer to my post on the top of Page 94 to see more comparisons.

And yes, 2-way reconversions are definitely in vogue right now. The city is currently studying turning much of the downtown street system back to two way streets, and I think its a missed opportunity to not have the streetcar be part of that.

[remline]

An interesting comparison of Oklahoma City's streetcar to Omaha's envisioned streetcar: Oklahoma City Streetcar in Focus.

Streetcar ridership has been steady at about 700 passengers per day, which works out to approximately 12 boardings per service hour.

That seems pretty bad! Yet, "the streetcar has been a monumental success."

[Garrett]

An interesting comparison of Oklahoma City's streetcar to Omaha's envisioned streetcar: Oklahoma City Streetcar in Focus.

Streetcar ridership has been steady at about 700 passengers per day, which works out to approximately 12 boardings per service hour.

That seems pretty bad! Yet, "the streetcar has been a monumental success."

OKC's streetcar is one of the worst designed and performing lines in the country. The loops are nonsensical imo and it ends up not covering a lot of linear space. It only covers 1.2 miles of space north-to-south, compared to 2.4 miles of coverage Omaha will have with the starter line, and possibly up to 3 miles with the UNMC expansion.