Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[riceweb]

I don't think her objections would be insurmountable if they actually wanted to overcome them. Still, extending ORBT down Broadway is a no brainer, to the point that I'm amazed it isn't even talked about. What are the odds that she actually pursues that?

ORBT in Omaha probably doesn't happen without the TIGER grant. Politics can be very cynical and transactional. If CB gets millions from the feds for a slightly more elevated bus experience, they'll likely build it out. Otherwise expect the status quo.

[ita]

I understand the anti-streetcar mentality, but the 'outdated' argument is one of the weakest. Just because it's existed for decades/over a century can actually work in its favor. While preferably we could separate vehicles from pedestrians, the cost for anywhere that's not a major destination is insurmountable. A streetcar is attainable and works, and has worked all over the world for a very long time. It's a proven and successful people mover, Omaha's, and a future Council Bluff's extension, just happens to be heavily focused on boosting development. Sorry, I am late on the comments and totally missed the CB election. If the streetcar was that big of an issue, the people of CB have spoken.

[almighty_tuna]

It's pretty clear that people who say streetcars are outdated mean that autonomous, trackless systems are the future

Ah, yes, that new technology known as "roads".

[TitosBuritoBarn]

She's labeled it "outdated streetcar technology" without any qualifiers about what that actually means

It's pretty clear that people who say streetcars are outdated mean that autonomous, trackless systems are the future (you see these in China now, for instance). I personally think the Tesla / Boring Company tunnel approach used in Vegas and Nashville has a ton of potential, as a form of public transportation without shared spaces (people frankly don't want to stand next to--and this is the best possible scenario--stinky armpits on a bus), with grade separation and autonomous vehicles in a tunnel system that is far far cheaper to build than the at-grade rail systems that streetcars operate on.

There are innovations out there, but Omaha insisted on building a streetcar system at probably the worst possible time. I don't think any other systems of this type will be built after Omaha's: we are likely the last one in the world that will be built.

These are not innovations. These are half-baked ideas that, when you consider the flaws involved with them and how to fix those flaws, what your left with is either a bus, train, or personal vehicles.

A trackless tram is a bus without a driver. We already have trains that do this. But it still needs to follow a wire and if it can only follow a wire, it still is susceptible to getting stuck in mixed traffic or blocked by obstacles like stalled or improperly parked cars, except instead of having a driver who can deal with these obstacles, it's just stuck. It's a bus that can't deal.

What Tesla wants to do is even more flawed and is nothing more than snake oil. It does not solve any amount of congestion in the way that adding a lane to a road wouldn't, which is minimal to begin with, except now there's the added expense of tunneling, which costs a huge amount of money. Plus, you need to request the vehicle rather than just know it will come. And because they are individual vehicles, if all the vehicles are in use, it may be awhile before a vehicle becomes available. If you add more vehicles to deal with the backlog, you end will end up with traffic congestion, which is the exact issue Elon said he was solving! So the more people who use it, the less effective it becomes. To minimize these flaws, what would be a better solution? A train! All Elon did was invent a worse subway. Furthermore, one of the main reasons why the price tag for the Las Vegas Loop was as low as it was is because they did the project incredibly cheap with six figures in OSHA violations to boot. Everything about it was barebones down to not even providing shade at the above ground stations...IN LAS VEGAS!

[Louie]

She's labeled it "outdated streetcar technology" without any qualifiers about what that actually means

It's pretty clear that people who say streetcars are outdated mean that autonomous, trackless systems are the future (you see these in China now, for instance). I personally think the Tesla / Boring Company tunnel approach used in Vegas and Nashville has a ton of potential, as a form of public transportation without shared spaces (people frankly don't want to stand next to--and this is the best possible scenario--stinky armpits on a bus), with grade separation and autonomous vehicles in a tunnel system that is far far cheaper to build than the at-grade rail systems that streetcars operate on.

There are innovations out there, but Omaha insisted on building a streetcar system at probably the worst possible time. I don't think any other systems of this type will be built after Omaha's: we are likely the last one in the world that will be built.

These are not innovations. These are half-baked ideas that, when you consider the flaws involved with them and how to fix those flaws, what your left with is either a bus, train, or personal vehicles.

A trackless tram is a bus without a driver. We already have trains that do this. But it still needs to follow a wire and if it can only follow a wire, it still is susceptible to getting stuck in mixed traffic or blocked by obstacles like stalled or improperly parked cars, except instead of having a driver who can deal with these obstacles, it's just stuck. It's a bus that can't deal.

What Tesla wants to do is even more flawed and is nothing more than snake oil. It does not solve any amount of congestion in the way that adding a lane to a road wouldn't, which is minimal to begin with, except now there's the added expense of tunneling, which costs a huge amount of money. Plus, you need to request the vehicle rather than just know it will come. And because they are individual vehicles, if all the vehicles are in use, it may be awhile before a vehicle becomes available. If you add more vehicles to deal with the backlog, you end will end up with traffic congestion, which is the exact issue Elon said he was solving! So the more people who use it, the less effective it becomes. To minimize these flaws, what would be a better solution? A train! All Elon did was invent a worse subway. Furthermore, one of the main reasons why the price tag for the Las Vegas Loop was as low as it was is because they did the project incredibly cheap with six figures in OSHA violations to boot. Everything about it was barebones down to not even providing shade at the above ground stations...IN LAS VEGAS!

One small addition to the Loop...currently they are still being driven by Tesla employees, not autonomous. 4.5 years after it opened.

[Busguy2010]

I really wish people would stop buying into the Jetsen's mentality. We were supposed to have flying gravity levitated cars by 1980, and look how that turned out. Still a bunch of junked up 1990's trucks and cars roaming around. I've even considered moving there to get away. Let's be honest, its CB, and if they like it that way, thats all good. We're just about as technologically advanced as were going to get, and would be best served to keep our feet on the ground and our heads out of the clouds.

They don't want a streetcar, so they'll never build a hyperloop. As if anybody will.

[BuildTaller]

I don't think any other systems of this type will be built after Omaha's: we are likely the last one in the world that will be built.

Hilariously ignorant.

[Stan]

She's labeled it "outdated streetcar technology" without any qualifiers about what that actually means

It's pretty clear that people who say streetcars are outdated mean that autonomous, trackless systems are the future (you see these in China now, for instance). I personally think the Tesla / Boring Company tunnel approach used in Vegas and Nashville has a ton of potential, as a form of public transportation without shared spaces (people frankly don't want to stand next to--and this is the best possible scenario--stinky armpits on a bus), with grade separation and autonomous vehicles in a tunnel system that is far far cheaper to build than the at-grade rail systems that streetcars operate on.

There are innovations out there, but Omaha insisted on building a streetcar system at probably the worst possible time. I don't think any other systems of this type will be built after Omaha's: we are likely the last one in the world that will be built.

These are not innovations. These are half-baked ideas that, when you consider the flaws involved with them and how to fix those flaws, what your left with is either a bus, train, or personal vehicles.

A trackless tram is a bus without a driver. We already have trains that do this. But it still needs to follow a wire and if it can only follow a wire, it still is susceptible to getting stuck in mixed traffic or blocked by obstacles like stalled or improperly parked cars, except instead of having a driver who can deal with these obstacles, it's just stuck. It's a bus that can't deal.

What Tesla wants to do is even more flawed and is nothing more than snake oil. It does not solve any amount of congestion in the way that adding a lane to a road wouldn't, which is minimal to begin with, except now there's the added expense of tunneling, which costs a huge amount of money. Plus, you need to request the vehicle rather than just know it will come. And because they are individual vehicles, if all the vehicles are in use, it may be awhile before a vehicle becomes available. If you add more vehicles to deal with the backlog, you end will end up with traffic congestion, which is the exact issue Elon said he was solving! So the more people who use it, the less effective it becomes. To minimize these flaws, what would be a better solution? A train! All Elon did was invent a worse subway. Furthermore, one of the main reasons why the price tag for the Las Vegas Loop was as low as it was is because they did the project incredibly cheap with six figures in OSHA violations to boot. Everything about it was barebones down to not even providing shade at the above ground stations...IN LAS VEGAS!

One small addition to the Loop...currently they are still being driven by Tesla employees, not autonomous. 4.5 years after it opened.

I saw the Zoox vehicles a few times in Vegas last week and I could see these driverless vehicles taking over if that company can keep a good safety record and produce more vehicles. Not the large people mover like a streetcar, but they will make Ubers redundant like Uber made cabs redundant.

[ita]

Still a bunch of junked up 1990's trucks and cars roaming around.

That's me, sorry!

[nebport5]

She's labeled it "outdated streetcar technology" without any qualifiers about what that actually means

It's pretty clear that people who say streetcars are outdated mean that autonomous, trackless systems are the future(you see these in China now, for instance). I personally think the Tesla / Boring Company tunnel approach used in Vegas and Nashville has a ton of potential, as a form of public transportation without shared spaces (people frankly don't want to stand next to--and this is the best possible scenario--stinky armpits on a bus), with grade separation and autonomous vehicles in a tunnel system that is far far cheaper to build than the at-grade rail systems that streetcars operate on.

There are innovations out there, but Omaha insisted on building a streetcar system at probably the worst possible time. I don't think any other systems of this type will be built after Omaha's: we are likely the last one in the world that will be built.

LOL. Like Mike McDonnell who said he wanted to look into autonomous vehicles late in his campaign for mayor? Translation, he really didn’t know shat about them but needed to throw out some “alternative” to campaign on against the streetcar. Similarly, and once again with Mayor elect Shudak, it’s a false counterargument to propose autonomous vehicles as an alternative for the streetcar. The streetcar’s primary purpose is creating transit oriented development that autonomous(like buses) will not. Perhaps read that last sentence again. So yes, Omaha is insistent on creating TOD in the urban core via the streetcar. And yes, the streetcar is a form of public transit but that fact is secondary to creating development. Speaking of armpits, a streetcar in C.B. might even create enough new development such that the city may cease to be referred to as Iowa's.

Autonomous vehicles besides creating more traffic and ride share competition(as Tito’s pointed out) are furthermore another way for AI to take jobs away from humans. At which point when demand and prices become so high and they start selling autonomous travel by the seat, you’ll inevitably still be stuck next to stinky armpits.

[locoluke]

I look forward to the congestion when everyone hails their Futuristic Autonomous Robo-Taxi to take them back to their cheap hotel in Council Bluffs from the CWS.

[Busguy2010]

I look forward to the congestion when everyone hails their Futuristic Autonomous Robo-Taxi to take them back to their cheap hotel in Council Bluffs from the CWS.

Getting shades of The Fifth Element here.

They have a layered mess of flying traffic, but its still a dystopian |expletive| hole haha

[Garrett]

I also hate when people refer to the streetcar as “century old technology” considering the car is also century old technology, and that electric streetcars and cars were invented within 4 years of each other

[Zephyr]

My latest Grow Omaha article highlights one example of our cutting-edge transit system!

https://growomaha.com/grow-omaha-street ... -the-cord/

[riceweb]

Everyone trying to dunk on me: WHY would any city rip up roads to up in expensive, single-use track when we could have a streetcar that is otherwise IDENTICAL without track? It's asinine that we would commit to decades of maintenance of these tracks + specialty vehicles that are more expensive than wheeled vehicles (with only a handful of global manufacturers) when we could just get the same thing but with wheels.

Just as a thought experiment, what if we built an elevated 2-lane bridge through downtown and just ran BRT on it? Wouldn't that serve people better, faster, with grade separation? I truly think many of you should step back and question whether you're just excited about a train and whether or not it serves a purpose that can't be fulfilled better in other ways.

[riceweb]

I also hate when people refer to the streetcar as “century old technology” considering the car is also century old technology, and that electric streetcars and cars were invented within 4 years of each other

That's not what I'm saying at all, very few people are saying a modern streetcar = a 1920s streetcar.

But I've used the streetcar extensively in Seattle, and it's just the worst. Slow, low capacity, extremely expensive, and ultimately, they might be exiting the project because it's not feasible (https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle ... unty-metro).

Yes, Kansas City's system appears to be doing well, but don't look at our streetcar with just rose colored glasses when there's an epic failure in a major city with much greater density where it "should" work, yet it doesn't.

It's just a pet project for us, and it will likely fail. But not before we spend an inordinate sum of money that could have been used on higher ROI transit projects.

[Busguy2010]

Everyone trying to dunk on me: WHY would any city rip up roads to up in expensive, single-use track when we could have a streetcar that is otherwise IDENTICAL without track? It's asinine that we would commit to decades of maintenance of these tracks + specialty vehicles that are more expensive than wheeled vehicles (with only a handful of global manufacturers) when we could just get the same thing but with wheels.

Just as a thought experiment, what if we built an elevated 2-lane bridge through downtown and just ran BRT on it? Wouldn't that serve people better, faster, with grade separation? I truly think many of you should step back and question whether you're just excited about a train and whether or not it serves a purpose that can't be fulfilled better in other ways.

It's been said many times, the modern streetcar isn’t a rapid transit solution, was never sold as one. It's a development tool.

Back in the day, it was a necessity. If you wanted to get around the city, that was most people's only option, and it worked because everybody lived near one, i.e. density. The idea is this will prosper density. If thats the case (it will be), there will be more people with less cars, and it then becomes a corridor where in practice, somebody without a car could live around Farnam without a car and could live, work, and do whatever within that corridor.

If it takes 20 minutes to get from 40th to Downtown, that's still an advantage over almost an hour walk. Whereas if it's just a bus, sure it would be quicker, but there won't be as many people there to use it.

I think we stand to see the Farnam corridor transform unbelievably in the next 10-20 years. The people that aren’t there now will be.

[Busguy2010]

Aside from the current discussion, (I know this would have never happened because of people and their rough roads and pothole grievances) I kind of wish the old tracks were still visible so people could see where they went, how extensive they were, and how much of a fabric of the city they were. Probably would have less doubt out there about what we're doing today.

[Busguy2010]

This was my Friday night movie



It is a must watch. No frills, just straight forwarf footage of the streetcar system back toward its end. What I wouldn't give to spend a week back then and then come back with that experience and compare it to today. You see so many places that are still here bumbling with activity, that are now dead as a door knob. So many places that are still recognizable, just without the people.

Its a really cool watch. I can't go back, but it's the next best thing.

[riceweb]

It's been said many times, the modern streetcar isn’t a rapid transit solution, was never sold as one. It's a development tool.

Back in the day, it was a necessity. If you wanted to get around the city, that was most people's only option, and it worked because everybody lived near one, i.e. density. The idea is this will prosper density. If thats the case (it will be), there will be more people with less cars, and it then becomes a corridor where in practice, somebody without a car could live around Farnam without a car and could live, work, and do whatever within that corridor.

If it takes 20 minutes to get from 40th to Downtown, that's still an advantage over almost an hour walk. Whereas if it's just a bus, sure it would be quicker, but there won't be as many people there to use it.

I think we stand to see the Farnam corridor transform unbelievably in the next 10-20 years. The people that aren’t there now will be.

Two things: (1) can these same requirements not be met by other transit solutions, and (2) have you been on the streetcar in Seattle. OMG, you can walk faster than it. It's honestly shocking. And Seattle is spending $4.5m a year in maintenance on their short South Lake Union streetcar that is built up around the epic Amazon campus with tens of thousands of workers, and they get only 500 riders a day. This is a real possibility for our line. There line is every bit as "modern" as ours, yet it actually connects an environment like you mentioned above with much higher density, yet it's set to be shut down (https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/stree ... -last-ride).

Just take a look at this wiki article on the streetcar project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omaha_Streetcar

Back in 2014, we estimated annual operating and maintenance costs at ~$6.8m with only ~1,400 projected daily riders. These are our own estimates, and these O&M numbers were before the big inflationary/price run-up period. What will the maintenance be now? And mind you, Seattle is set to shut down their entire line with similar numbers.

And back to the Boring Company: the Vegas Loop only cost ~$45m to build and they did it in no time at all. Nashville is set to open a 10-mile tunnel system by late 2026 or early 2027. We're optimistically looking at 2028 for our streetcar, but these types of projects very often have both cost and executional challenges that stretch them out longer--I would not be surprised if we still have no streetcar running by 2030.

We're going to be paying millions each year to support a system used by nobody, connecting nothing, moving slower than a walking pace. And there are alternatives available which align with our development goals more closely.

And heck, I think we could have been even way less ambitious and simply put in the cute electric circulator buses like they have in Colmar, France (https://tourisme-colmar.com/en/componen ... temid=1458) or the on-demand equiavlent Fort Lauderdale, Florida (https://www.fortlauderdale.gov/governme ... ator-pilot). They would have cost us next to nothing and actually served our community and tourists better.

[locoluke]

The Boring Company’s concept does not scale very well at all and also is designed to serve an entirely different purpose than the streetcar.

It’s also worth noting that the SLU streetcar like is only 1.3 miles long. The First Hill like in Seattle is longer and remaining open.

[Linkin5]

We're going to be paying millions each year to support a system used by nobody, connecting nothing, moving slower than a walking pace. And there are alternatives available which align with our development goals more closely.

I will make the bold claims now that more than zero people will use the streetcar and it will connect different places in Omaha.

Having rode streetcars I can confidently say, even with stops, it is faster than the average person walking.

What are you basing your suggestion that there are alternatives that better align with Omaha’s development goals? It sounds like you are basing everything off your own personal feelings towards streetcars.

I personally think the Omaha streetcar will have the same popularity of the KC line. The fixed line will add a level of permanence and reliability that a bus can’t. I think due to the initial novelty, we’ll see people that would normally never use public transportation use the streetcar, which in turn will create a familiarity with the system and they’ll come back.

This entire project reminds me of the pedestrian bridge, Omaha/Lincoln arena, Gene Leahy/heartland park renovation, in that there are a lot of people vocally against it during construction that will end up loving it or we won’t hear from them again.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

And heck, I think we could have been even way less ambitious and simply put in the cute electric circulator buses like they have in Colmar, France (https://tourisme-colmar.com/en/componen ... temid=1458) or the on-demand equiavlent Fort Lauderdale, Florida (https://www.fortlauderdale.gov/governme ... ator-pilot). They would have cost us next to nothing and actually served our community and tourists better.

Those are meant for moving a small amount of people around a single neighborhood, not across multiple neighborhoods miles apart.

[stadsborgare]

People will buy condos because of the streetcar. They would not because of a bus. It's the permanence, the fixed route that can't be changed on a whim leaving residents high and dry that does it.

And developers know this. The Duo and west addition happens because of the streetcar. The Beam wouldn't be contemplated but for the streetcar. I also think 37 West Farnam was also built in anticipation of the streetcar. The new project planned in place of the old WOWT studio next to Blackstone Plaza is a direct result of the streetcar. It would not be happening because of a bus.

All these infill residential developments already in the pipeline of being built is attributable to the streetcar, so it is already a success and they haven't laid a single track yet.

Most importantly, this all goes to the health of this city's future tax base, because like has been said, we will run out of room to grow out by 2050 and will have to grow vertical in the urban core to keep up with our growth.

So whether or not the streetcar is needed right now, it will be needed in the future, so kudos to our city leaders for their FORWARD THINKING.

[Garrett]

I also hate when people refer to the streetcar as “century old technology” considering the car is also century old technology, and that electric streetcars and cars were invented within 4 years of each other

That's not what I'm saying at all, very few people are saying a modern streetcar = a 1920s streetcar.

But I've used the streetcar extensively in Seattle, and it's just the worst. Slow, low capacity, extremely expensive, and ultimately, they might be exiting the project because it's not feasible (https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle ... unty-metro).

Yes, Kansas City's system appears to be doing well, but don't look at our streetcar with just rose colored glasses when there's an epic failure in a major city with much greater density where it "should" work, yet it doesn't.

It's just a pet project for us, and it will likely fail. But not before we spend an inordinate sum of money that could have been used on higher ROI transit projects.

Finally have some time on my hands to reply!

First, yes, there are a lot of failed streetcar lines around the country, and they each teach various, avoidable mistakes that Omaha should take caution to not repeat. In the case of the South Lake Union Streetcar in Seattle, it's tiny. 1.3 miles of line length, or about a 25 minute walk end to end. Omaha's will nearly double that length to start. Dallas and DC both built their lines in secondary neighborhoods with extremely limited stops, as opposed to running their lines through their core, and along with Seattle, they both have better forms of rail transit available.

This sort of segues into another issue with how the streetcar is being sold. Yes, it is indeed a development tool, but so are all other forms of transportation. The streetcar lines of yesteryear were development tools, the West Dodge Expressway is a development tool, heck, even airports are development tools. A lot of cities built streetcar lines treating them as development tools, but successful ones have treated them as transit, as Omaha plans to do. When Omaha's line opens, it will not just be some supplemental service as part of a larger network or some little appendage branching off, it will provide frequent service between 18 and 20 hours per day within the densest parts of the city for both residents and jobs. I agree, if Omaha stops at just the starter line, it will fail to live up to the full potential of the streetcar line. I even think there are bolder steps the city should make in the starter line, such as exclusive rights-of-way within the downtown couplet, that will make the line run better. KC has already learned that lesson and it shows in their extensions.

And this takes me back to my frustration at the cancellation of the CB line; it would have been one of the best, if not the best, modern streetcar line in the country from a planning perspective. Not only would it have had its own right of way, it would have been able to run over grass, which is cool as heck if you haven't seen it before. It would have been able to provide direct transit downtown that would have been reliable, not just as an addendum to car focused infrastructure, while also providing another river crossing exclusive for streetcar and pedestrian use that would bring the cities closer.

Everyone trying to dunk on me: WHY would any city rip up roads to up in expensive, single-use track when we could have a streetcar that is otherwise IDENTICAL without track? It's asinine that we would commit to decades of maintenance of these tracks + specialty vehicles that are more expensive than wheeled vehicles (with only a handful of global manufacturers) when we could just get the same thing but with wheels.

Just as a thought experiment, what if we built an elevated 2-lane bridge through downtown and just ran BRT on it? Wouldn't that serve people better, faster, with grade separation? I truly think many of you should step back and question whether you're just excited about a train and whether or not it serves a purpose that can't be fulfilled better in other ways.

Awful idea. This would take the disruption you're currently seeing from streetcar construction and multiply it by a factor of 10, while also costing more on a per-mile basis than the streetcar. Which road would you run an elevated roadway down? And what do you think conditions will be like on that street when there is suddenly an elevated roadway on top of it? Do you think businesses will want to open up to a roadway that suddenly has no sunlight? Will people want to live next to that roadway? There's a reason no city has ever done that.



If you have time to kill, I would encourage you to watch Not Just Bikes videos on trams in Europe and then his followup on why North American streetcars tend to be bad

[riceweb]

I agree, if Omaha stops at just the starter line, it will fail to live up to the full potential of the streetcar line. I even think there are bolder steps the city should make in the starter line, such as exclusive rights-of-way within the downtown couplet, that will make the line run better. KC has already learned that lesson and it shows in their extensions.

And this takes me back to my frustration at the cancellation of the CB line; it would have been one of the best, if not the best, modern streetcar line in the country from a planning perspective. Not only would it have had its own right of way, it would have been able to run over grass, which is cool as heck if you haven't seen it before. It would have been able to provide direct transit downtown that would have been reliable, not just as an addendum to car focused infrastructure, while also providing another river crossing exclusive for streetcar and pedestrian use that would bring the cities closer.

Strongly agreed that scale is going to be the biggest limiting factor of this system along with right of way. I also think exclusive right of way might have minimized the impact of the project on the area while we build it out.

If you have time to kill, I would encourage you to watch Not Just Bikes videos on trams in Europe and then his followup on why North American streetcars tend to be bad

I have traveled extensively throughout Europe and FWIW, I find the trams there also tend to be fairly annoying. I prefer the subways and buses (and the vast majority of the time simply walking), but mostly because it seems like I never come across the trams in time. Is there some global rule that streetcars/trams should run very infrequently?

Anyhow, I brought up an elevated option because I think grade separation is key for a successful system in the United States.It's not just right of way, but actually taking the transit system out of the regular transportation system is the key element for success here in the US, because that's the only way you can consistently win over an automobile IMO. I think that was also a key component to the success of buses back in the day in Seattle, because buses could use the transportation tunnel there offering a major advantage to the buses, ultimately creating a culture that normalized transit usage. I think we're too rich and very comfortable in our enormous, comfortable air conditioned cars without needing to share space with anyone, that you can't win with transit if you're only arguably better than a car, you need to have a system that gets you where you want to go more efficiently than using a car. That's why I strongly urge us to not just cargo-cult a streetcar and focus on something more "disruptive" in a technological/economic sense.

[locoluke]

I agree, if Omaha stops at just the starter line, it will fail to live up to the full potential of the streetcar line. I even think there are bolder steps the city should make in the starter line, such as exclusive rights-of-way within the downtown couplet, that will make the line run better. KC has already learned that lesson and it shows in their extensions.

And this takes me back to my frustration at the cancellation of the CB line; it would have been one of the best, if not the best, modern streetcar line in the country from a planning perspective. Not only would it have had its own right of way, it would have been able to run over grass, which is cool as heck if you haven't seen it before. It would have been able to provide direct transit downtown that would have been reliable, not just as an addendum to car focused infrastructure, while also providing another river crossing exclusive for streetcar and pedestrian use that would bring the cities closer.

Strongly agreed that scale is going to be the biggest limiting factor of this system along with right of way. I also think exclusive right of way might have minimized the impact of the project on the area while we build it out.

If you have time to kill, I would encourage you to watch Not Just Bikes videos on trams in Europe and then his followup on why North American streetcars tend to be bad

I have traveled extensively throughout Europe and FWIW, I find the trams there also tend to be fairly annoying. I prefer the subways and buses (and the vast majority of the time simply walking), but mostly because it seems like I never come across the trams in time. Is there some global rule that streetcars/trams should run very infrequently?

Anyhow, I brought up an elevated option because I think grade separation is key for a successful system in the United States.It's not just right of way, but actually taking the transit system out of the regular transportation system is the key element for success here in the US, because that's the only way you can consistently win over an automobile IMO. I think that was also a key component to the success of buses back in the day in Seattle, because buses could use the transportation tunnel there offering a major advantage to the buses, ultimately creating a culture that normalized transit usage. I think we're too rich and very comfortable in our enormous, comfortable air conditioned cars without needing to share space with anyone, that you can't win with transit if you're only arguably better than a car, you need to have a system that gets you where you want to go more efficiently than using a car. That's why I strongly urge us to not just cargo-cult a streetcar and focus on something more "disruptive" in a technological/economic sense.

What if we just took away some of the space used by cars and gave it to transit, pedestrians, and cyclists? Throw in some proper signal priority and you may have a winner. I feel like that's a pretty proven means of improving transit without relying on vaporware, and it's way cheaper and easier to build than an elevated transitway.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

I agree, if Omaha stops at just the starter line, it will fail to live up to the full potential of the streetcar line. I even think there are bolder steps the city should make in the starter line, such as exclusive rights-of-way within the downtown couplet, that will make the line run better. KC has already learned that lesson and it shows in their extensions.

And this takes me back to my frustration at the cancellation of the CB line; it would have been one of the best, if not the best, modern streetcar line in the country from a planning perspective. Not only would it have had its own right of way, it would have been able to run over grass, which is cool as heck if you haven't seen it before. It would have been able to provide direct transit downtown that would have been reliable, not just as an addendum to car focused infrastructure, while also providing another river crossing exclusive for streetcar and pedestrian use that would bring the cities closer.

Strongly agreed that scale is going to be the biggest limiting factor of this system along with right of way. I also think exclusive right of way might have minimized the impact of the project on the area while we build it out.

If you have time to kill, I would encourage you to watch Not Just Bikes videos on trams in Europe and then his followup on why North American streetcars tend to be bad

I have traveled extensively throughout Europe and FWIW, I find the trams there also tend to be fairly annoying. I prefer the subways and buses (and the vast majority of the time simply walking), but mostly because it seems like I never come across the trams in time. Is there some global rule that streetcars/trams should run very infrequently?

Anyhow, I brought up an elevated option because I think grade separation is key for a successful system in the United States.It's not just right of way, but actually taking the transit system out of the regular transportation system is the key element for success here in the US, because that's the only way you can consistently win over an automobile IMO. I think that was also a key component to the success of buses back in the day in Seattle, because buses could use the transportation tunnel there offering a major advantage to the buses, ultimately creating a culture that normalized transit usage. I think we're too rich and very comfortable in our enormous, comfortable air conditioned cars without needing to share space with anyone, that you can't win with transit if you're only arguably better than a car, you need to have a system that gets you where you want to go more efficiently than using a car. That's why I strongly urge us to not just cargo-cult a streetcar and focus on something more "disruptive" in a technological/economic sense.

What if we just took away some of the space used by cars and gave it to transit, pedestrians, and cyclists? Throw in some proper signal priority and you may have a winner. I feel like that's a pretty proven means of improving transit without relying on vaporware, and it's way cheaper and easier to build than an elevated transitway.

This is essentially the playbook in many cities where transit is prioritized. Create a robust transit network, complement it with compatible land uses, and make driving a pain the |expletive| with expensive and scarce parking, minimal highways, and greater tolerance for congestion.

[Garrett]

I agree, if Omaha stops at just the starter line, it will fail to live up to the full potential of the streetcar line. I even think there are bolder steps the city should make in the starter line, such as exclusive rights-of-way within the downtown couplet, that will make the line run better. KC has already learned that lesson and it shows in their extensions.

And this takes me back to my frustration at the cancellation of the CB line; it would have been one of the best, if not the best, modern streetcar line in the country from a planning perspective. Not only would it have had its own right of way, it would have been able to run over grass, which is cool as heck if you haven't seen it before. It would have been able to provide direct transit downtown that would have been reliable, not just as an addendum to car focused infrastructure, while also providing another river crossing exclusive for streetcar and pedestrian use that would bring the cities closer.

Strongly agreed that scale is going to be the biggest limiting factor of this system along with right of way. I also think exclusive right of way might have minimized the impact of the project on the area while we build it out.

If you have time to kill, I would encourage you to watch Not Just Bikes videos on trams in Europe and then his followup on why North American streetcars tend to be bad

I have traveled extensively throughout Europe and FWIW, I find the trams there also tend to be fairly annoying. I prefer the subways and buses (and the vast majority of the time simply walking), but mostly because it seems like I never come across the trams in time. Is there some global rule that streetcars/trams should run very infrequently?

Anyhow, I brought up an elevated option because I think grade separation is key for a successful system in the United States.It's not just right of way, but actually taking the transit system out of the regular transportation system is the key element for success here in the US, because that's the only way you can consistently win over an automobile IMO. I think that was also a key component to the success of buses back in the day in Seattle, because buses could use the transportation tunnel there offering a major advantage to the buses, ultimately creating a culture that normalized transit usage. I think we're too rich and very comfortable in our enormous, comfortable air conditioned cars without needing to share space with anyone, that you can't win with transit if you're only arguably better than a car, you need to have a system that gets you where you want to go more efficiently than using a car. That's why I strongly urge us to not just cargo-cult a streetcar and focus on something more "disruptive" in a technological/economic sense.

What if we just took away some of the space used by cars and gave it to transit, pedestrians, and cyclists? Throw in some proper signal priority and you may have a winner. I feel like that's a pretty proven means of improving transit without relying on vaporware, and it's way cheaper and easier to build than an elevated transitway.

This is essentially the playbook in many cities where transit is prioritized. Create a robust transit network, complement it with compatible land uses, and make driving a pain the |expletive| with expensive and scarce parking, minimal highways, and greater tolerance for congestion.

Indeed. Transit, even in the most transit rich cities in the world, will only sometimes be more efficient on a personal level, but it is far more efficient on a collective level. Right now, door to door from my office at the tip of Manhattan to my apartment on the other end of Manhattan about 8.5 miles away, it would take 45 minutes on the subway+walking or 30 minutes in a car. But I don't worry about a laundry list of things that owning a car/driving entail, such as parking, traffic, refueling, or being involved in a crash, and I just spend the time reading on my phone.

[Big E]

But I don't worry about a laundry list of things that owning a car/driving entail, such as parking, traffic, refueling, or being involved in a crash, and I just spend the time reading on my phone.

Yeah but what about all the times you've been murdered on the subway...? That has to be accounted for somehow.

[Garrett]

But I don't worry about a laundry list of things that owning a car/driving entail, such as parking, traffic, refueling, or being involved in a crash, and I just spend the time reading on my phone.

Yeah but what about all the times you've been murdered on the subway...? That has to be accounted for somehow.

I've only been murdered 3 times this year so it's not as bad as they say

[Big E]

There's plenty of time for another one yet this year, especially since the new mayor has cancelled Christmas.

[riceweb]

But I don't worry about a laundry list of things that owning a car/driving entail, such as parking, traffic, refueling, or being involved in a crash, and I just spend the time reading on my phone.

Yeah but what about all the times you've been murdered on the subway...? That has to be accounted for somehow.

That's super insensitive and out of touch IMO in light of stories like Iryna Zarutska

[Busguy2010]

I knew I couldn't have been the only one thinking "good lord are they ever gonna finish this thing?"

https://www.wowt.com/2025/11/18/omaha-s ... struction/

Apparently they acknowledge its moving slowly.

[skinzfan23]

I’m all for getting construction completed as early as possible but how about a deadline and a penalty for not completing on time for the contractor.

[Busguy2010]

I’m all for getting construction completed as early as possible but how about a deadline and a penalty for not completing on time for the contractor.

I think I heard they propose an increase from 500K, to 4.5M. Seems pretty steep to me, and the guy they interviewed didn't sound super confident it would actually speed things up.

[Busguy2010]

I'm thinking we should make bets at this point.

IIRC, the original goal was to have it running around the time MofO was operational. I'm forgiving enough if they missed that by even a year, but now we're talking at least 2028, before I can ride this thing? Some people want to see this become reality before the day we die, gawd.

[Garrett]

But I don't worry about a laundry list of things that owning a car/driving entail, such as parking, traffic, refueling, or being involved in a crash, and I just spend the time reading on my phone.

Yeah but what about all the times you've been murdered on the subway...? That has to be accounted for somehow.

That's super insensitive and out of touch IMO in light of stories like Iryna Zarutska

Don't get me wrong, violence on transit is deeply disturbing and it is something I think about as a rider. However, it is also exceedingly rare. New York's spike in subway murders after the pandemic was a worrying for a lot of us here. But it also peaked at 10 murders in 2023, against a system ridership of 2 billion riders per year, compared to the pre-covid range of between 0 and 2 per year. You know Iryna Zarutska's name. Do you know the names of any of the 67 people who died in Douglas County in traffic violence in 2024?

[Big E]

The outrage gap between her and Debrina Kawam was pretty striking, too.

People went bonkers over an illegal immigrant setting someone on fire on a subway, then suddenly silent when they realized they were going to have to pretend to care about homeless people.

[stadsborgare]

A person could just as well be accosted by a street thug between the parking garage and the restaurant they're going to. But they're only concerned when it happens on a train rather than on a sidewalk.