Riverfront Lease deal sweetens with time

[Brad]

The old market is not even close to its full potential half of the buildings are empty or very unederutilized on the upper floors. There are buildings to the south and west of the old market that are prime for development.

ConAgra has been great to the community and helped start the riverfront movement but you gus are bitching because there is not a bunch of 1/2 empty old buildings in DTO. Just because they spin off parts of the company don't mean they are going away or that they are doing. Big companies are always evolving, you have to keep up with todays economy.

[Brad]

Looks like they wanted a park in DTO all along...

[MTO]

And no CB

[Brad]

"Before"

[eomaha]

once they are gone what do we have?

Perhaps the original vision... Marina City!

[MTO]

Are you trying to say that ConAgra is directly responsible for the QCO/RFP/parks building etc?
And what again does some vacancy in the OM have to do with ConAgra?

[Finn]

The vacancy shows that many of those buildings are not prime for redevelopment - nor were those of Jobbers Canyon.

E - the Old Post Office and Hotel Fontenelle were not similar to buildings in JC. And I'm not making a case for the Greenhouse or the Old Market buildings except that we kept a representative sample of what was there for historical renovation - so let the others go.

What would we have if ConAgra went away (which is sad that anybody is actually thinking they are going to disintegrate)? We would still have a beautiful lake and public park that would serve as the impetus for redevelopment as the GLM has and a corporate campus prime for redevelopment!

[DTO Luv]

Maybe it's because I never got to see what was there before the Mall and Conagra, so I don't see what we're missing out on. I do know that Lots of people enjoy the Mall and Heartland Park. I think the office buidings around the Mall speak volumes about how the Mall helped move along DT. Whoever decided to build Central Park Plaza, the Qwest building, and the Landmark Center probably thought it would be nice for the employees to have a nice outdoor space close by. It's better they did that than out west somewhere with tons of outdoor space. The Paxton will be the only residential building on the Mall. That's a great selling point to be so close to that outdoor space lots of DTs don't have.

I can't think of what it's called but in KC by Bartle Hall and Municipal Auditorium they have a park that's about the size of a block. It's pretty much in the same are our GLM would be in. All they have is grass and some benches. They don't have a lagoon, two huge slides, shade, hills, swans to feed, fish to watch, water to wade in, waterfalls, or any of the coming renovations which will give us more park space for kids, an ice skating rink, more waterfalls, and a more manicured park.

Brad I'm in total agreement with you that the OM isn't even at it's full potential. How could we have had that much left over and expected to fill it up. Yeah we probably could have kept some more of those buildings, but it didn't happen. We still have plenty of underused old building on the SW end of DT.

[Big E]

File this under one of those 'agree to disagree' classifications...

I'm TRYING to! ;)

-Big E

[Swift]

The vacancy shows that many of those buildings are not prime for redevelopment - nor were those of Jobbers Canyon.

Not true. Most of the under-utilized buildings in the Old Market have been contacted multiple times by developers wanting to turn the upper floors into apartments, etc. only to have the buildings' owners refuse.

You can redevelop anything.

[Finn]

Sure you can redevelop anything but something is only prime for redevelopment if there is a market for it and if they are functional in today's market needs. As I mentioned, many of those buildings were functionally obsolescent for most uses and there is not enough of a housing market to support that many buildings (as seen with the Old Market situation).

[MTO]

Let's just go ahead and throw Finn's opinion out on this and go with ol' Swift's. Since it the correct one.
If we still had Jobbers it would be a gold-mine for development. Those buildings where just fine structural wise and would have out lasted most of us.

[Hooloovoo]

water to wade in

Water to wade in? What water in the GLM or Heartland of America Park would you want to wade in? Every time I go down there and look at the water, I feel like I will get some sort of strange disease or mutation if I get wet.

[Brad]

You guys are CRAZY if you think that Jobbers Canyon is better for the citys economy than the ConAgra Campus. Jobbers Canyon had cool old buildings that would have made a cool wharehouse district, However as far as Economic Impact, ConAgra is way better. Also you would have the same problems in Jobbers Canyon as you do in the old market if not worse. There would still be owners of those building there if they were not forced out by the courts. I am thinking that Jobbers Canyon would be more like the are between Upstream and SoMa than the rest of the old market.

[MTO]

I don't doubt what ConAgra has done but what I am talking about is from here on out. Since there will be no more ConAgra I would rather have Jobbers. I do agree the fountain and |expletive| is cool but I would have preferred more an urban district.

[icejammer]

Pardon me, but could we get back on the thread topic? You know, how Hal Daub is sticking it to the taxpayers once again?

[Coyote]

Water to wade in? What water in the GLM or Heartland of America Park would you want to wade in? Every time I go down there and look at the water, I feel like I will get some sort of strange disease or mutation if I get wet.

And have you seen those sharks that are in the HoA Park lake? Now I know they are not real sharks but their fins make you think they are. I have been meaning to call the extension office to find out what lives there. Anyone know what they are?

[Swift]

I think it's really hard to debate ConAgra v. Jobbers Canyon. I think we all can agree that having a major business with employees (who need to eat lunch somewhere...how about the Old Market?) in close proximity to the Old Market helped put lots of money into the OM making it what it is today. The debate is really whether they should have torn down so many buildings.

The Old Market might not exist without Con Agra and the GLM...but couldn't they have located them selves on otherwise vacant lots as apposed to tearing down historical buildings?

Who knows. We could debate this until we're blue in the face. But Con Agra was built at a time when common knowledge said that cities had gone the way of the dinosaur...that we were all going to mow our little lawns while waving across the street at the Joneses and driving everywhere in our huge cars that gulped up $.85 per gallon gas while Ronald Reagan did back flips off the highdive into a pool of Jelly Bellies.

[Brad]

I don't doubt what ConAgra has done but what I am talking about is from here on out. Since there will be no more ConAgra I would rather have Jobbers. I do agree the fountain and |expletive| is cool but I would have preferred more an urban district.

What the |expletive| are you talking about. Big companies spin off parts of their business all the time, conAgra is doing fine They are talking about expanding their DTO campus towards the police horse barn.

[Brad]

I don't doubt what ConAgra has done but what I am talking about is from here on out. Since there will be no more ConAgra I would rather have Jobbers. I do agree the fountain and |expletive| is cool but I would have preferred more an urban district.

What the |expletive| are you talking about. Big companies spin off parts of their business all the time, conAgra is doing fine They are talking about expanding their DTO campus towards the police horse barn.

RED = OPPD Unused Power Plant

[Coyote]

Harrah's would certainly like a better view of Omaha if ConAgra were to extend their campus there. Is anyone else looking at this property?

[Brad]

Last I heard from my "source" inside ComAgra was that ConAgra was building another building, they just are waiting for the city to rebuild a "Major" Sewer under the property.

[DTO Luv]

Yeah really. Conagra isn't going anywhere.

If the OM is so great why are they just now (almost 20 years after JC was demolished) turning the space above the Blue Barn theater (south of 1101 Jackson) into residential? If the OM was so booming it would have been like that already. It hasn't. Why was the old Ted & Wally's/Howard Street Pizza building empty for so long and just now being renovated, after much neglect? Yes we probably could have kept more buildings but it didn't work out that way. Despite what we have lost we still have tons of underused older buildings DT that few people ever think of.

[Finn]

I agree DTO. Look at the litany of businesses that have closed in the Old Market. It is not the continually bustling activity node that we like to make it out to be. It is getting better as is much of downtown with the residential influx. But, make no mistake that a lot of that is due to the business presence/expansion (ConAgra, UP, World Herald, etc.) not the fact that there are old warehouses that can be redeveloped - that has been the case for decades.

The point about Jobbers Canyon is that they were not great, architecturally significant buildings. Yes, they were similar to those in the Old Market (again, not great , architecturally significant buildings) - but how many do we need? We preserved several (Burlington Greenhouse, Butternut, Harriman, buildings across from Greenhouse - including the Marriott, etc.). We have more of these buildings to the south including those between Upstream and SOMA (as Brad mentioned - not exactly in prime condition or fully utilized) and those further up Jones Street (where many unsuccessful projects have come and gone - Jones Street Brewery, etc.), along Leavenworth, etc. We are not lacking for convertible warehouse space or remnants of our historical past. Why lament Jobbers Canyon when bland, obsolescent warehouses were removed to better the city and the economy? I'm all for some preservation but sometimes you have to improve upon the old and develop something better.

[Big E]

Look at the litany of businesses that have closed in the Old Market.

Out of curiosity, which ones are you talking about?

The point about Jobbers Canyon is that they were not great, architecturally significant buildings. Yes, they were similar to those in the Old Market (again, not great , architecturally significant buildings) - but how many do we need?

That's a pretty telling statement about why we disagree so much on this issue. By that logic, there was no need to salvage the Old Market other than a handful of moderately successful businesses in the 70s. Maybe if we were left with just the corner of 11th and Howard that would be representative enough of Omaha's past and impact on the west?

-Big E

[DTO Luv]

It Flys (kite store), that furniture store, Howard Street Pizza. I think another place closed by elan in the lofts. The club Freeze never opened. I'm not sure what the status is on that. The antique store that we were told would become a national chain closed. I'm probably missing some.

[almighty_tuna]

The antique store that we were told would become a national chain closed. I'm probably missing some.

Is that the gift shop at 13th and Howard?

[DTO Luv]

I think it is. I thought it was an antique place.

[almighty_tuna]

Either way, you know the place I'm talking about then. It won't be vacant for long.

[Big E]

It Flys (kite store), that furniture store, Howard Street Pizza. I think another place closed by elan in the lofts. The club Freeze never opened. I'm not sure what the status is on that. The antique store that we were told would become a national chain closed. I'm probably missing some.

It Flys!:

They sold kites. I'm sorry, but as cool as that place was, the business model was just outdated. It's a PlayStation world.

The furniture store:
Not sure which one you're talking about here, but I can think of at least three right off the top of my head that are still kicking. If you're talking about elan, that was obviously affected by the Butternut fire - not to mention their INSANE pricing. I bought the same stuff I was looking at in KC, and saved so much money I could have it delivered AND pay for my weekend in KC.

Howard Street Pizza:
How many other successful pizza joints are there? If your restaurant closes in the OM, you either have bad food or bad business sense.

Gift store:
There are six stores there selling the exact same stuff.

Freeze:
You have no idea why that hasn't opened, so its not even relevant (other than holding up development on a great corner).

The store next to elan:
If you're talking about the place next to Aroma, I can't comment on that because it was closed before I moved back.

The vacancies and business failures aren't because the OM have reached some magical arbitrary point of saturation. It's because people aren't utilizing the space properly. The OM should be entertainment (food, drink, movies, concerts, etc) and high-end destination retail (think of the leather joint and their $3000 coats, or an Apple store with $400 iPods and $2000 iMacs) that attract people from all over a region. As of right now, there's not THAT much down there (retail wise) that can justify the rent, or that can't be found at VP. How many $2 comic books do you have to sell to make rent in the OM?

This is a big part of my JC argument. Just because no one had the foresight, ambition, caiptal or balls to utilize the area doesn't mean it was obsolete (I'm not talking about its original use), unwanted, or unsalvageable.

-Big E

[Finn]

And by your logic we wouldn't have the new UP building, FNC tower, etc., etc. because they removed old buiulings. Your Omaha would look strangely similar to that 1820's postcard!

[Big E]

Yea, because there are obviously no empty parking lots in downtown to build on.

And I've never claimed that EVERY building needs to be saved. But that 1820s postcard looks a LOT like modern day neighborhoods in Baltimore, DC, Philly, NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Fran and dozens of other cities that have managed to progress and lead into the modern era without completely obliterating their history.

-Big E

[icejammer]

Look at the litany of businesses that have closed in the Old Market.

Out of curiosity, which ones are you talking about?

To add to the list, Godfather's Pizza, Garden Cafe, Austin's Steakhouse, the record store that used to be on 10th Street, the comedy club under what is now The Upstream, a couple of places between Spaghetti Works and what was the pizza place who's names escape me now, Coyote's Pub, and certainly a few dozen more stores who's names and locations have long ago escaped my memory.

[DTO Luv]

This is a big part of my JC argument. Just because no one had the caiptal
-Big E

Exactly. No one had the money. We still have parts of our DT that everyone says (to borrow from Frankie Pane) they should to this, they should do that. Who's they? The City? It would have taken years, probably decades, to get Jobber's even on the level of what the OM is now. People have tons of vision. This forum is evidence of that. But ambition, vision, plans and desire all amount to nothing without the means to do it with. On the flipside there are lots of people in Omaha with the means but no desire or vision to see what we all see. That's what happened with Conagra and Jobbers.