Oak View Mall (144 & West Center Rd)

[Dusty]

Those seem like fun ideas. But is there any room of them at Oak View?

The Elev8 space I visited took up one of the anchors (both floors). This still leaves a lot of space.
The indoor Adventure Center says it's just over 66k sq feet. I have no clue the size of a typical anchor space.

My thinking was to attract 1-2 large entertainment ideas as the main attraction. Then you can build dense mixed use development around the mall.

[mrsticka]

Maybe they can do something with the former Sears? It's still empty after 5 years. Can you believe that?

[ita]

I like the idea of some entertainment options taking space at Oakview. Unfortunately, there are other large retail spaces that have recently opened up and quickly filled with some new entertainment options, or at least in the works. A few of these are on Center, including Nobbies and Westwood Theater by 120th and Gordman's at 172nd. New climbing gym, minigolf and bowling facilities, all not at Oakview. I am guessing it's an ownership thing.

[Garrett]

Maybe they can do something with the former Sears? It's still empty after 5 years. Can you believe that?

Honestly, yeah. Big box stores like this don’t have the greatest adaptive reuse options so it’s fairly capital intensive.

[omaha79]

Maybe they can do something with the former Sears? It's still empty after 5 years. Can you believe that?

even the now somewhat marginally "successful" indoor mall, Westroads, has had the Younkers side sit empty like a wart on the mall for a decade or more. Agree, there just isn't a use for those anchor bays once the tenants leave. It's why malls die. They are a very connected eco system. When the anchors go away, the whole body starts to wither and decay. That's the first step in the dead mall playbook actually. An anchor leaves and with no hope to fill the spot, the rest of the mall starts to backslide. In todays outdoor urban centers, it's easier to fill an unconnected bay or even tear down wings if something sits empty too long. It's more modular in that way.

I've long thought Shadow Lake could probably do well to take out some of their middle strip vs. having much of it sit empty. Open up parking for the rest and open up views to the main outer ring. Can't do any of that with an indoor mall. what you built to start, is typically what you get outside of maybe adding on like Westroads did with Von Mauer or the theater/Dicks area.

[Greg S]

Maybe they can do something with the former Sears? It's still empty after 5 years. Can you believe that?

even the now somewhat marginally "successful" indoor mall, Westroads, has had the Younkers side sit empty like a wart on the mall for a decade or more. Agree, there just isn't a use for those anchor bays once the tenants leave. It's why malls die. They are a very connected eco system. When the anchors go away, the whole body starts to wither and decay. That's the first step in the dead mall playbook actually. An anchor leaves and with no hope to fill the spot, the rest of the mall starts to backslide. In todays outdoor urban centers, it's easier to fill an unconnected bay or even tear down wings if something sits empty too long. It's more modular in that way.

I've long thought Shadow Lake could probably do well to take out some of their middle strip vs. having much of it sit empty. Open up parking for the rest and open up views to the main outer ring. Can't do any of that with an indoor mall. what you built to start, is typically what you get outside of maybe adding on like Westroads did with Von Mauer or the theater/Dicks area.

I believe it's only been 5 years since Younkers closed. I think Bon Ton declared bankruptcy in 2018. Anchor stores are the hardest to fill. I am sure there are more, but nationally the only department stores I know of that are adding at Von Maur (and obviously Westroads already has one) and Dillard's (which due to owning their store at Oak View complicates a move to Westroads).

Greg

[Cermak]

Most malls across the country have at least 1 empty former department store, some have 2 or more. Just the times we live in now. I was at Old Orchard shopping center in suburban Chicago last month and they had 2 empty department stores and this is considered a fairly upscale mall not far from the affluent North shore suburbs. It seems like nobody has been spared.

[Dusty]

What makes it tough is once a mall if deemed a dead mall by the public it makes it hard for anything to survive there. it's like the area is cursed. Any attraction you bring struggles because of that dead mall stigma. It's almost better to demolish the mall and hike the price of the land up. At least you would open up your options for developers with a clean slate.

[mrsticka]

Gateway Mall in Lincoln did just fine after Montgomery Ward left in 2000-2001. It didn't become a ghost town. Neither did Westroads. Just because an anchor store leaves a mall doesn't mean the mall itself is automatically doomed. I mean, I can understand why people might think that. After Dillard's left Crossroads, it went downhill from there. But that was just one mall. It doesn't necessarily reflect on how well other malls do. Oak View is not Crossroads. Just because it happened to Crossroads doesn't mean it will happen to Oak View.

[TransitOriented]

and Gateway is not Oakview. Gateway has many good food options and Round1. Although Oakview did have the V, but not connected to the mall. I've gone to Gateway to eat and end up spending a dollar or two at Round1.

It looks like they fixed a bunch of the curbs around the "mousetrap" but didn't really fix any of the pot holes on the road surface.

[mrsticka]

I preferred Gateway's old food court from the late 90's before it was moved to its current location. It had something the current one doesn't; An Arby's.

[Garrett]

I’ve noticed you put Arby’s in all of your food court plans haha

[mrsticka]

I’ve noticed you put Arby’s in all of your food court plans haha

Well, yeah. Why not? They've got good food. They used to be a common sight in food courts. Another place that also used to be pretty common in food courts is Sbarro. Same with Orange Julius. Now Subway is.

Believe it or not, there was a time when if you went to a mall and stopped in its food court, you were more than likely to see Arby's, Sbarro and Orange Julius. Not just here in Nebraska, but pretty much nationwide.

[omaha79]

Gateway Mall in Lincoln did just fine after Montgomery Ward left in 2000-2001. It didn't become a ghost town. Neither did Westroads. Just because an anchor store leaves a mall doesn't mean the mall itself is automatically doomed. I mean, I can understand why people might think that. After Dillard's left Crossroads, it went downhill from there. But that was just one mall. It doesn't necessarily reflect on how well other malls do. Oak View is not Crossroads. Just because it happened to Crossroads doesn't mean it will happen to Oak View.

Happened at The Center as well when their only anchor Younkers left (was previously Kilpatricks).

Happened to Southroads, first Younkers left (was previously Brandeis), then JC Pennys became an outlet store and then later closed, but really, the mall never recovered from Younkers leaving.

Happened at Crossroads when first Younkers/Brandeis left, then it limped on with Sears and Dillards, but when Dillards left, that was the true death knell.

Happened at Mall of the Bluffs when multiple anchors left.

Happening at Oak View with Younkers and Sears both closing up shop. If either Pennys or Dillards leaves, that's the final nail for that mall as a functional retail space.

This has repeated quite a few times in Omaha over the last 30 years since The Center first succumbed. Without looking, the death of the Center was about 1995, Southroads about 2001 or so, Crossroads about 2007, and Oak View ongoing. If anything, Westroads surviving multiple closures of anchor stores is an outlier based on amazing location of that mall in comparison to others. But, with recent headline crime events involving Westroads, I'm not sure it could survive another anchor closing.

[Cermak]

Think the best case scenario for OakView would be to demolish it. Mall of the Bluffs was torn down. I would like to see some sort of housing/apartments/retail development on this property, it's still a good location.

[NEDodger]

Think the best case scenario for OakView would be to demolish it. Mall of the Bluffs was torn down. I would like to see some sort of housing/apartments/retail development on this property, it's still a good location.

This. The lots are empty and decaying. Nothing is going to fulfill the retail space. “Crossroads” this thing.

[mrsticka]

-Mall of the Bluffs should've had a second floor instead of just 1.
-The Center was too small a building.
-Southroads could've had a 3rd anchor like Dillard's or Sears, but that probably wouldn't have made much of a difference.
-Crossroads should've had their second floor extended above the original east-west wing between Sears and Younker's.
-Oak View should've had wings leading to JCPenney's and Sears like they did with Dillard's and Younker's.

[Garrett]

Those architectural changes would not have saved these dead malls from macro economic changes that have destroyed brick and mortar retail everywhere. Omaha still probably would have just ended up with Westroads no matter the design of the other malls.

[mrsticka]

Those architectural changes would not have saved these dead malls from macro economic changes that have destroyed brick and mortar retail everywhere. Omaha still probably would have just ended up with Westroads no matter the design of the other malls.

Why do you always have to be so negative?

[Garrett]

Those architectural changes would not have saved these dead malls from macro economic changes that have destroyed brick and mortar retail everywhere. Omaha still probably would have just ended up with Westroads no matter the design of the other malls.

Why do you always have to be so negative?

It’s just the reality of trends in cities across the country that indoor malls are mostly dead with some exceptions. Out of all of the malls that have existed in Omaha, Westroads has the best location to survive, and so it does, but even its surivial remains more tenuous than it used to be. I enjoy living in the hypothetical as mucin as anyone, but we also have to recognize that certain urban planning policies simply do not work on a widespread, long term scale, and that’s especially true of destination retail like shopping malls

[Cermak]

-Mall of the Bluffs should've had a second floor instead of just 1.
-The Center was too small a building.
-Southroads could've had a 3rd anchor like Dillard's or Sears, but that probably wouldn't have made much of a difference.
-Crossroads should've had their second floor extended above the original east-west wing between Sears and Younker's.
-Oak View should've had wings leading to JCPenney's and Sears like they did with Dillard's and Younker's.

Good points ! But they still may have failed anyway because of the overall decline of malls.

[mrsticka]

-Mall of the Bluffs should've had a second floor instead of just 1.
-The Center was too small a building.
-Southroads could've had a 3rd anchor like Dillard's or Sears, but that probably wouldn't have made much of a difference.
-Crossroads should've had their second floor extended above the original east-west wing between Sears and Younker's.
-Oak View should've had wings leading to JCPenney's and Sears like they did with Dillard's and Younker's.

Good points ! But they still may have failed anyway because of the overall decline of malls.

If Mall of the Bluffs did have a second floor and if Crossroads' second floor also went above the original ground level of the east-west wing between Sears and Younkers and if Oak View had wings leading to JCPenney's and Sears, would you still have gone to them?

[Dusty]

It doesn't matter how you configure the mall. They are all dying from bad planning from sprawl and creating a destination to drive a car to. The suburban experiment of the 1950's is finally paying its price. It's not just shopping malls, but shopping centers with an anchor and smaller tenants. When you push single use zoning it forces you to drive to everything. It was not the original intent behind shopping malls. There were supposed to be mixed used communities like you see in Europe.

It doesn't help in the 1980"s (mall golden years) that many developers were offered to build as many malls as possible with terms like no taxes for 30 years. Guess what happens in 30 years? You have a ton of taxes to start paying on. If one of those anchors leaves, you are doomed.

I see these new "lifestyle centers " as the same problem as shopping malls. They are slightly better, but again making it all about a destination for you to drive to. Tons of parking garages, which costs a ton of money. This means rent is super high to cover the cost to build. This squeezes out any local or small businesses. This is why you only see franchise chain stores in all these new shopping centers. It also incentivizes driving vs. walking, biking, and taking transit. It's not sustainable as we are repeating the same mistakes as shopping malls. Instead of making single use shopping centers, cities need to be building mixed use communities with strong transit options. Places we live, work and play all in one neighborhood vs. single use zoning forcing us to drive everywhere.

I added a video that goes into this.

[Renovator2559]

Great points Dusty, people don't even realized how the cost of car centric infrastructure, sprawl and parkinglots; have so many hidden costs that are pushed in other areas like housing prices and making the overall city poorer as a result. Car infrastructure is so subsidized, it's not even funny. For example parking fees only account for an average of just 4% of the total cost and the rest is picked up by tax payers.

In Europe the people see the true cost of car infrastructure by the use of fuel and car taxes, in the US many of the costs are hidden; which gives the illusion that free parking is "free"

[Dusty]

In my mind, Oak View Mall is dead and can't be saved in its current form. So you can take two approaches:
1. Find a few big entertainment options to fill the mall as the anchor and build dense mixed used development around it. This would include: housing, shopping, workplaces, playgrounds, schools, churches, etc. Connections to transit.

2.. Demolish the mall and build the same dense mixed-use community from scratch.

The days of single use shopping centers/malls are coming to an end. We need to look at land use as a place to live, work, and play. It will come down to trying to find that right tenant to use the mall space or to demolish and start over.

[mrsticka]

Perhaps Oak View had been going downhill for a while now. The lockdown in 2020 certainly didn't help. That accelerated it.

[Dusty]

What makes it hard is not all the land is owned by the mall. For example: the restaurants on the West side (Chilis, Longhorn, etc) are not part of the mall. I believe the mall changed hands again in the last few years. I thought I read they only bought the inner part of the mall. (not the anchors) I could be wrong on this. My memory is a little fuzzy on the details.

[Busguy2010]

I want to tear the whole thing down and create a modern urban neighborhood like Sterling in Denver.

[TransitOriented]

I want to tear the whole thing down and create a modern urban neighborhood like Sterling in Denver.

You mean Stapleton? It's just a bunch of row houses / townhomes. I think Oakview should be a bunch of 15+ story apartment buildings like downtown KC with the One/Two/Three Lights.

[Busguy2010]

I want to tear the whole thing down and create a modern urban neighborhood like Sterling in Denver.

You mean Stapleton? It's just a bunch of row houses / townhomes. I think Oakview should be a bunch of 15+ story apartment buildings like downtown KC with the One/Two/Three Lights.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I might agree with you, but there's got to be a limit to how many Crossroads/Aksarbens/MTC's/Heartwoods that Omaha can support. So I vote to go simple, make a modern single family urban community.

[ita]

I want to tear the whole thing down and create a modern urban neighborhood like Sterling in Denver.

You mean Stapleton? It's just a bunch of row houses / townhomes. I think Oakview should be a bunch of 15+ story apartment buildings like downtown KC with the One/Two/Three Lights.

I would love high rise/dense residential by shopping malls. Check out Pearl Ridge Mall in Pearl City, HI. There is high rise residential in a suburban context built by the mall which I think would work by Westroads and Oakview if there was interest.

[riceweb]

I wouldn't make retail a priority at Oak View at all. I'd just focus on pleasant and unique green space and medium- to high-density housing. Maybe a water feature and a couple restaurants.

The city needs some type of playbook for run-of-the-mill upzoning.

[TransitOriented]

I want to tear the whole thing down and create a modern urban neighborhood like Sterling in Denver.

You mean Stapleton? It's just a bunch of row houses / townhomes. I think Oakview should be a bunch of 15+ story apartment buildings like downtown KC with the One/Two/Three Lights.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I might agree with you, but there's got to be a limit to how many Crossroads/Aksarbens/MTC's/Heartwoods that Omaha can support. So I vote to go simple, make a modern single family urban community.

One/Two/Three/etc Lights are just apartment buildings. No districts. Get a thousand or two people in there.

[Garrett]

If Heartwood somehow manages to right their course 144th could be a great candidate as a West Omaha urban spine. Spread more housing types and transportation options across the city.

[mrsticka]

How about building all that urban housing or affordable housing at 144th and Pacific? There's a big empty lot there on the southwest corner. So why not build it there?

[TransitOriented]

How about building all that urban housing or affordable housing at 144th and Pacific? There's a big empty lot there on the southwest corner. So why not build it there?

That's HeartWood : https://www.eomahaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=17831

[Garrett]

How about building all that urban housing or affordable housing at 144th and Pacific? There's a big empty lot there on the southwest corner. So why not build it there?

Omaha is already short tens of thousands of homes, especially affordable ones. There are 20,000 affordable units in the city and 100,000 families who could qualify for them. Median home prices have almost doubled in the last decade. We can't be reliant on just one development or neighborhood to tackle a housing crisis. It needs to be a regional initiative to bring more housing options everywhere.

[mrsticka]

I only asked because that land has been empty for decades while the rest of Omaha has just grown so rapidly. Yeah, now it's starting to get developed, but there's still a big chunk of empty space there.

[nativeomahan]

I only asked because that land has been empty for decades while the rest of Omaha has just grown so rapidly. Yeah, now it's starting to get developed, but there's still a big chunk of empty space there.

For “decades”? Try eons.

[mrsticka]

I only asked because that land has been empty for decades while the rest of Omaha has just grown so rapidly. Yeah, now it's starting to get developed, but there's still a big chunk of empty space there.

For “decades”? Try eons.

Okay, eons.