Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:28 pm

Good point, Aaron - modern streetcars are basically a form of light rail. Take Tacoma for example - they have a modern streetcar system with plans to upgrade to a full light rail system in the future.

As I posted on another thread, I could not believe what Fahey said in his State of the City address:

A streetcar system or some other form of mass transit is under consideration. It would transport
people to work and downtown entertainment venues, and would also be the catalyst for largescale
redevelopment in the areas through which it travels. There are no guarantees, and lack of
money is a constraint. But when Omahans put their minds to accomplishing an objective, we can
usually get it done.

OmahaJaysCU · Post by **OmahaJaysCU** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:46 pm

I'm so pumped about this. As i stated in another thread, I have always wanted to live downtown and never have to own a car. It seems to me that this just might be happening.

To those who don't think that streetcars are enough, you're right. But remember that you have to start somewhere. If we can get a good streetcar system working, large rail lines connecting west o and downtown will fallow. The important thing is that we get this started. This way, we can get people accustomed to the idea of taking public transportation rather than their suv. It also gives us an opportunity to see how much people like it before we throw hundreds of millions of dollars at a large rail line. And besides, if everyone in the midtown area likes the streetcar system linking downtown, Creighton, UNMC, ect, than the demand out west will increase. Making it easier to get done!

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:03 pm

I don't know why any city/state/fed money wouldn't be used. I do think the business community could handle a big portion of it but still. If they can build a massive overpass out west I'll never use, then they can put something towards the rail projects.

the1wags · Post by **the1wags** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:31 pm

Updated WH link touting the starting cost at under 100M and under 4 miles of initial construction.

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=1636&u_sid=2096839

Reading the article in the actual paper from today, it said a study had already been done by Heritage Services. Im curious as to the details of the study. With this in the paper today, and again tomarrow (State of the City address) this is really getting attention and momentum. GO O!

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:42 pm

Thanks for the updated link, Wags. New quotes from Charlie Hales and the last line suggests the potential of connecting to light rail in the future...

adam186 · Post by **adam186** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:49 pm

DTO Luv wrote:I don't know why any city/state/fed money wouldn't be used. I do think the business community could handle a big portion of it but still. If they can build a massive overpass out west I'll never use, then they can put something towards the rail projects.

Good point, that expressway you are talking will cost over $100 million when complete and they built that so people don't have to stop at the busiest intersections in town. That is about the same amount as the first phase of the modern streetcar rail system downtown would cost (cost figure for the rail system from the study) which would stretch 4 miles and would stop at Creighton, Qwest Center, and the Old Market. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, 2 miles of expressway out west, or 4 miles of track for mass transit (that will spur more development)?...

Bob from Omaha · Post by **Bob from Omaha** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:38 pm

adam186 wrote:
DTO Luv wrote:I don't know why any city/state/fed money wouldn't be used. I do think the business community could handle a big portion of it but still. If they can build a massive overpass out west I'll never use, then they can put something towards the rail projects.
Good point, that expressway you are talking will cost over $100 million when complete and they built that so people don't have to stop at the busiest intersections in town. That is about the same amount as the first phase of the modern streetcar rail system downtown would cost (cost figure for the rail system from the study) which would stretch 4 miles and would stop at Creighton, Qwest Center, and the Old Market. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, 2 miles of expressway out west, or 4 miles of track for mass transit (that will spur more development)?...

Forgive me for being ignorant, but with the exception of Las Vegas where else did business "handle" a big portion of it?

Secondly, the arguement that "I won't use it so I want something else" is to say the least, weak. For myself, I drive downtown quite a bit...the Qwest Center, the Holland Center, the Zoo, the Childrens Museum, the Western Heritage Museum, etc...I gotta say,DTO, that there has been quite a bit of investment, both by business and government.

In addition, the Dodge Street construction is a State Highway job. It makes sense to build it as thousands of people use Dodge every day. Show me a study that conclusively proves that the "4 miles of track for mass transit" will be used by thousands of people daily and will at least pay a percentage of itself and I will stand on the Woodmen Tower and scream for it. The Qwest Center was a |expletive| shoot...this is about longer odds by a mile. Having said all that, get Hal Daub on the stick and it could happen.

Finally, comparing the Overpass and rail transit is apples and oranges. Rail must stand on its own. The thing about Hal is that he gets it. He definitely got it with the Qwest Center. He put together the financing, the location, the tax mechanism, etc. To do rail, its much the same...financing, location, tax mechanism, governing entity, etc. How much subsidy will realistically be needed for rail? What would be the projected ridership? The Dodge project became necessary because those of us acres-of-concrete-parking-lot-loving, mcmansion-or-cookie-cutter-housing-development-living, suv-driving-while-yacking-on-cel-phone, chain-restaurant-eating, millard-schools-forever-thong-wearing, not-in-my-backyard, we-all-look-alike suburbanites wouldn't think of sharing a ride with our spouses, much less strangers.

Then again, it could work....

adam186 · Post by **adam186** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:05 pm

Bob, I hope you don't mind but I disected your post to further discussion and bring up some more points.

Bob from Omaha wrote:Forgive me for being ignorant, but with the exception of Las Vegas where else did business "handle" a big portion of it?

Don't know anywhere else myself. I don't think businesses should be the main financial provider unless they got a portion of the money it produces.

Bob from Omaha wrote:Secondly, the arguement that "I won't use it so I want something else" is to say the least, weak. For myself, I drive downtown quite a bit...the Qwest Center, the Holland Center, the Zoo, the Childrens Museum, the Western Heritage Museum, etc...I gotta say,DTO, that there has been quite a bit of investment, both by business and government.

I think we can all agree with that!

Bob from Omaha wrote:In addition, the Dodge Street construction is a State Highway job. It makes sense to build it as thousands of people use Dodge every day. Show me a study that conclusively proves that the "4 miles of track for mass transit" will be used by thousands of people daily and will at least pay a percentage of itself and I will stand on the Woodmen Tower and scream for it. The Qwest Center was a |expletive| shoot...this is about longer odds by a mile. Having said all that, get Hal Daub on the stick and it could happen.

This is only the first phase of the project. You have to start somewhere, and I think this guy says it best: "It's a problem to plan an elaborate system that never gets built," Charlie Hales said. And not to mention a waste of time and money. Besides, you can't expect instant gratification on a project like this especially when people are set in driving everywhere right now. Give it time and people will ride and businesses and residents nearby will prosper.

Bob from Omaha wrote:Finally, comparing the Overpass and rail transit is apples and oranges. Rail must stand on its own. The thing about Hal is that he gets it. He definitely got it with the Qwest Center. He put together the financing, the location, the tax mechanism, etc. To do rail, its much the same...financing, location, tax mechanism, governing entity, etc. How much subsidy will realistically be needed for rail? What would be the projected ridership? The Dodge project became necessary because those of us acres-of-concrete-parking-lot-loving, mcmansion-or-cookie-cutter-housing-development-living, suv-driving-while-yacking-on-cel-phone, chain-restaurant-eating, millard-schools-forever-thong-wearing, not-in-my-backyard, we-all-look-alike suburbanites wouldn't think of sharing a ride with our spouses, much less strangers.

Yes, Hal could probably pull it off and that's quite a generalization of suburbanites.

Bob from Omaha wrote:Then again, it could work....

Yes, yes it could.

warwickland · Post by **warwickland** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:45 pm

way to go, omaha. i hope you guys get it built and make kansas city look stupid, i'm serious.

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:46 pm

To answer the private/public funding question, the Portland Streetcar was paid largely by local public funds, but also with help from developers and a business improvement district. Developers are paying about half the cost of the Seattle South Lake Union Streetcar. And the Atlanta streetcar is backed primarily by business leaders. The best recipe obviously is a mix of both public and private, but I see Omaha having most of the funding from private donors.

SaOmaha · Post by **SaOmaha** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:00 pm

I do agree with the1wags, a modern street line would aid and encourage development of Downtown, Creighton University / North Downtown area and midtown.

This Omaha Street Car system could be similar or modeled after the streetcar line in the Portland's Pearl District
http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/

There have been discussion on OmahaStreetCar.com’s trolley plans at
http://www.eomaha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2844

I just read tonight discussion on the proposed streetcar line. You have some good point. I hope it will be built

SaOmaha · Post by **SaOmaha** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:03 pm

Omaha World Herald latest Street Car article
The top of Wednesday morning Omaha World Herald Newspaper headlines reads “Revitalization May Ride Streetcar”. This article is about Heritage Services plans for a study on feasibility of modern streetcars system connecting Creighton University, downtown, Mutual of Omaha and the University of Nebraska Medical Center.

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=163 ... nd=5823959

In some way their plan is similar to OmahaStreetCar.com’s demonstration line.

http://www.omahastreetcar.com – click on “about us” tab for map

Their system would be similar or modeled after the streetcar line in Portland's Pearl District

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/

There is already a discussion on this topic at
http://www.eomaha.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3250

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:55 pm

Okay....so this is really obvious to me, but....make a call for donations...those people who donate the most money will get a street car named after them. The Scott Car. The Durham Car. The Holland Car.

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:47 pm

^Great idea, Bob! Portland Streetcar does something similar to this - they have sponsorhsips for practically everything on the system: the streetcars, stations, and the brochures.

I.E.

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:15 am

Here's some more photos to whet your appetite!

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:17 am

The station sponsorships are clearly seen in those photos, and tastefully done, too!

MTO · Post by **MTO** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:34 am

Streetcar not bus in disguise
http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=1636&u_sid=2097451

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:38 am

And the hits just keep on coming...

OmahaJaysCU · Post by **OmahaJaysCU** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:04 pm

Note the very last line

Bruce Carpenter, senior vice president at HDR, said the streetcar line could eventually be linked to a light-rail system.

Good to see this momentum, if these get built, won't stop at just streetcars, we'd go all out baby!

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:01 pm

I'm just excited that these issues and ideas are FINALLY being brought to the public eye. Getting the public informed is half the battle.

I see NO reason why city, state, and federal funds couldn't be used to get this thing done within the next couple of years. It is not apples and oranges to compare inner-city transit need to the West Dodge Expressway when you consider what an injustice that is. Fahey made excellent points in his speach about urban development, etc. but he also mentioned that we need to build new neighborhoods but also take care of our older ones. Well, what about transportation needs? Urban transportation needs. Probably 95 percent of transportation spending in the last couple of decades has been spent on expanding suburban infrastructure...but what about the forgotten Omaha urban dwellers? Don't they deserve a transportation infrastructure that offers them options?

Anyway, good stuff.

Bob from Omaha · Post by **Bob from Omaha** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:36 pm

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:I'm just excited that these issues and ideas are FINALLY being brought to the public eye. Getting the public informed is half the battle.

I see NO reason why city, state, and federal funds couldn't be used to get this thing done within the next couple of years. It is not apples and oranges to compare inner-city transit need to the West Dodge Expressway when you consider what an injustice that is. Fahey made excellent points in his speach about urban development, etc. but he also mentioned that we need to build new neighborhoods but also take care of our older ones. Well, what about transportation needs? Urban transportation needs. Probably 95 percent of transportation spending in the last couple of decades has been spent on expanding suburban infrastructure...but what about the forgotten Omaha urban dwellers? Don't they deserve a transportation infrastructure that offers them options?

Anyway, good stuff.

I don't have hard numbers but just a few examples:
Widening 72nd street
Improvements to Cuming
Massive sewer separation all over eastern Omaha

I'm not sure I understand your question...are you asking about rail or something else?

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:45 pm

Oh, I was just talking about the injust distribution of transportation spending across Omaha, and how it really lacks in our urban areas. That's all. There may have been a few rhetorical questions thrown in there.

MTO · Post by **MTO** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:59 pm

The Omaha papers poll has the streetcars ahead of the other two big ideas the mayor discussed. So at least the general public knows what they are talking about and isn’t that naive.

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:38 pm

It's encouraging to see the not only the rail proposal in front... but the combined support for a ballpark, rail, and downtown development incentives in general more than doubling those saying 'nothing interests me'. Maybe we have some forward thinking folks in this town afterall.

icejammer · Post by **icejammer** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:19 am

Streets, don't forget about the amount of money being spent (and has been spent) improving the freeway through and near downtown in the last 15 years. And the realingment of Abbott Drive near downtown. Money has been spent - just on what mode of transportation (and if that is the most prudent choice) is the real issue I think.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:51 pm

icejammer wrote:Streets, don't forget about the amount of money being spent (and has been spent) improving the freeway through and near downtown in the last 15 years. And the realingment of Abbott Drive near downtown. Money has been spent - just on what mode of transportation (and if that is the most prudent choice) is the real issue I think.

Is that a joke? Are you joking? Because I think I get it. That's funny.

Bob from Omaha · Post by **Bob from Omaha** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:43 pm

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:Oh, I was just talking about the injust distribution of transportation spending across Omaha, and how it really lacks in our urban areas. That's all. There may have been a few rhetorical questions thrown in there.

Ok, clueless suburbanite here. I disagree with the "injust" distribution point. I also disagree with the unjust point that was intended. The construction out west is actually two types, both related. One is new street construction and the other is widening. As to new construction, I guess I would simply call it development, and it's (IN MY OPINION) called progress. I am quickly growing tired of those who characterize it as "cookie cutter" or "McMansions". I really wonder if those who do that have ever driven through or actually have entered one of the above-mentioned places. It's a free country, and those neighborhoods are thriving communities, BY AND LARGE.

As for widening, I would suggest that the construction projects have been prudent. Instead of widening streets years before there is demand, the streets are widened on a schedule. I commend the streets departement for their planning. Inconvenient, sure, but controlled. And with the new stress on timeliness projects are being finished quicker. (With appologies to those who have put up with the 680 & Maple area for the last 1,000 years).

It's a supply and demand thing, and for what it's worth the older areas of the city already have streets. AND with some exceptions, the older parts of town have streets that can handle the demand. So where is the injustice? I'd be all for a more efficient mass transit proposal...IF it can be economically feasible. There are dreams and there are wishes....One can dream of the day when light rail makes sense, while one can wish that a monorail would fly all over Omaha because it would be "neat".

I'm not trying to quash anyone's dreams.

adam186 · Post by **adam186** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:12 pm

Bob from Omaha wrote:There are dreams and there are wishes....One can dream of the day when light rail makes sense, while one can wish that a monorail would fly all over Omaha because it would be "neat".

I'm not trying to quash anyone's dreams.

I agree w/ everything you mentioned except for this part. Dreams and wishes can come true if there is leadership with a vision and has enough passion to get it done. And I assure you, we don't want this stuff just because it would be "neat", we want it to spur development and add ambience to the downtown area.

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:42 am

Not the young ideologue (or at least not nearly to the same degree any longer), I'd, in my opinion as always, suggest that 'unjust' may simply be the overly abbreviated/generalized characterization of my own feeling that we're not doing enough to help the inner city, certainly outside of downtown, thrive along with the rest of the metro.

As a suburbanite myself, I personally (although I understand I am entirely in the minority where sharing the wealth is concerned, as can be illustrated in the OPS backlash) would like to see some portion of my local tax dollars be used as incentives towards encouraging development (incl. transportation improvements)/etc in the older parts of Omaha. Crime/social problems/blight/etc/etc of the inner city, may not affect me directly (or maybe it does... until Millard can 'segregate' it's public safety/social program/etc spending from the rest of Omaha, in the same manner it does it's educational spending) but are issues that really do affect me nonetheless... if only through my conscience.

I'm curious, can Eric put on an objectivity hat for us and present examples of streetcar/light rail projects in the United States which have failed ? ... whatever the definition of that might be (I guess fail to deliver enough economic returns to pay off the bonds/etc, spun to build the thing in the first place... I know for me, it would simply be that it didn't end up being 'neat'

).

SaOmaha · Post by **SaOmaha** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:11 am

Regardless the type of mass transit system Omaha may get in the future. Street and Highway improvement still needs to be done. Did some mention in passing, a monorail system yesterday?.

I love to see a personal monorail system honeycomb Omaha with its car-like on-demand none-stop point to point (station to station) service. It would replace most none-shopping auto trips and you get there faster. Also promise to cost less per mile than trolley/light rail. In other word this city could be honeycombed for the price of a single trolley/light rail cross town line with no government money involved.

I just described the skytran personal monorail system ( http://www.skytran.net/ ). As great as it sounds, it has one big problem there is no prototype or working system in existence.. In other words, it is still a fantasy.

Otherwise Trolley/Streetcar/Light rail is a proven technology and services a different propose: it can move a large number of people, aid in area development and /or draw tourists. In some way it is move fun to ride a Trolley/Streetcar thru a nice area than alone on a personal monorail above.

I believe both type of systems can co-exist in Omaha because they meet different needs and complent each other. Let’s built a Trolley/Streetcar while waiting for an affordable personal monorail to become available.

UNMCStudent · Post by **UNMCStudent** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:29 pm

Monorail!....Monorail!!....Monorail!!!

UNMCStudent · Post by **UNMCStudent** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:33 pm

SaOmaha wrote: I love to see a personal monorail system honeycomb Omaha with its car-like on-demand none-stop point to point (station to station) service. It would replace most none-shopping auto trips and you get there faster. Also promise to cost less per mile than trolley/light rail. In other word this city could be honeycombed for the price of a single trolley/light rail cross town line with no government money involved.

A personal transportation system...that is built on a honeycomb network, which will take an individual directly, non-stop, to their desired specific location in a personal carriage.

That sounds a lot like...oh...I don't know....an AUTOMOBILE.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:31 pm

I think a great catalyst for any trolley/streetcar line would be a ....gorcery store. That's the one place people use consistanly. It's sounds fine and dandy to have a line to go from the Qwest Center to Mutual of Omaha, but I don't see how it would be put to everyday use.

I actually work at Mutual of Omaha and wouldn't even have time during the day to go the Qwest Center if I wanted to (which why would I need to?) I think people want to over romance this streetcar thing with stops at the arenas, schools and offices, but this HAS to be seen in a neighborhood context. As of yet I don't hear any talk of these proposals having much use for the everyday person.

Last year I was talking with a lady from Seattle and she couldn't believe how terrible Omaha's public transportation was. She didn't have a car when she moved to Omaha (she didn't need it in Seattle) so had to rely on the bus.

I know people talk about new development and communities springing up around the streetcars and while that's fine they should also plan on it serving the existing needs of the people.

It kills me that MAT said a rail-system couldn't be justified if it was just for public transit but if it could be used for tourism than it was a good idea. I'm not trying to be negative towards and future rail options. I think the needs of everyday people should be taken into consideration.

Also why insn't anyone talking about UNO bein one of the INITIAL stops for rail? At the Omaha Streetcar meeting I asked this and the response was," We'll get there eventually. It's further away." As of now there are 14,000+ students at the University. I'm not sure how many live on campus. What I do know is that as UNO turns into more of a traditional campus from a commuter one, these students (who may not be able to afford a car) will need to get around town. It seems perfect to me to have UNO on the line because it's practically a guarantee the OM will be frequented even more by those who don't have to DRIVE drunk.

Big E · Post by **Big E** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:43 pm

<<<<
Monorail!....Monorail!!....Monorail!!!
>>>>

But what about the Escalator to Nothing?

-Big E

Harpoon · Post by **Harpoon** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:10 am

DTO Luv wrote:It kills me that MAT said a rail-system couldn't be justified if it was just for public transit but if it could be used for tourism than it was a good idea. I'm not trying to be negative towards and future rail options. I think the needs of everyday people should be taken into consideration.

Kurt Simon only said that a STREETCAR system couldn't be viable for just public transit, which is true. Streetcars are about economic development, not transit. Light Rail, on the other hand, IS about commuting and public transit.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:53 pm

Harpoon wrote:
DTO Luv wrote:It kills me that MAT said a rail-system couldn't be justified if it was just for public transit but if it could be used for tourism than it was a good idea. I'm not trying to be negative towards and future rail options. I think the needs of everyday people should be taken into consideration.
Kurt Simon only said that a STREETCAR system couldn't be viable for just public transit, which is true. Streetcars are about economic development, not transit. Light Rail, on the other hand, IS about commuting and public transit.

Any sources to backup this opinion?

Harpoon · Post by **Harpoon** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:48 pm

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:
Harpoon wrote:
DTO Luv wrote:It kills me that MAT said a rail-system couldn't be justified if it was just for public transit but if it could be used for tourism than it was a good idea. I'm not trying to be negative towards and future rail options. I think the needs of everyday people should be taken into consideration.
Kurt Simon only said that a STREETCAR system couldn't be viable for just public transit, which is true. Streetcars are about economic development, not transit. Light Rail, on the other hand, IS about commuting and public transit.
Any sources to backup this opinion?

The world herald article in which he was quoted I guess could be considered a "source".

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:21 pm

Who, Curt Simon? Yeah, MAT really knows what they're talking about when it come to rail transit.

But no, I agree with you that a streetcar DEFINITELY brings economic development with it...the type of economic development we all dream of. But the economic development follows because of lightrail's PRIMARY FUNCTION: viable public transport. And of course tourists will use it, too, but that is definitey not it's sole, or even primary purpose.

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:05 am

Good point, Aaron - I completely agree. Sure streetcars are economic development engines, but what causes this in the first place? A good reliable source of transport that also spurs pedestrian activity.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:28 am

If there were circulator buses that actually ran on a timed, frequent schedule, well sure, they could accomplish the same objective as a streetcar with regards to people moving.

The importance of the streetcar comes into play when you consider economic development, and pedestrian friendliness.

Development will not be spurred by some circulator bus line, because it has no perminance or promise of longevity. Developers see those streetcar tracks and think, "Ok, this is ON a streetcar line, and it's not changing anytime soon." I mean, MAT changes bus routes and times on a whim.

Also, there's the pedestrian friendly nature of streetcars. They generally run on electricity, so there's no noise or smelly pollution at streetlevel that would descourage pedestrian traffic.