Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[Renovator2559]

Its great to have Eric Miller back in Omaha from Denver, after learning plenty from the Denver public transit system over the years.

It's great to have people back, that had the chance to expand their thinking, in how to fix and improve urban issues; especially those of larger scale.

This interview shares a few glimpses on how the Denver light rail, has enhanced the Denver urban fabric and how our Omaha streetcar is poised to do the same, as well as possible future expansion routes of the streetcar.

[Brad]

The part I really found interesting when he said most people that took the light rail to the airport in Denver, worked at the airport...

[Busguy2010]

The part I really found interesting when he said most people that took the light rail to the airport in Denver, worked at the airport...

I didn't watch the video, but if that really is the case in Denver, I really wouldn't doubt that's the case in Omaha. Probably why we only have Route 16 serving the airport mon-fri in the morning and afternoon. Though I'd love to see one of the major routes experiment with frequent all day service to the airport, just to see how it goes.

[almighty_tuna]

One of my favorite parts of the front range transportation system: I can fly there, take the train to Union Station, then hop on the Bustang for a cheap ride to most popular places. He11, I can check my backcountry pack on a plane, ride the Bustang to Breck, and be a short uber ride from a couple of my favorite trailheads with no car required.

[TransitOriented]

The part I really found interesting when he said most people that took the light rail to the airport in Denver, worked at the airport...

Pikes Peak lot is $8 per day.
Train is $10.50 per person each way.
AB1 bus to Boulder is also $10.50 each way.

If I have 2 people that is $42 for train or bus RT. So a 5 day trip, is basically a wash in terms of money. I drive my car every single time because then I'm on my own schedule. I can eat/drink wherever I want along the way. If they were to halve that $10.50 I would likely take the bus (if I'm gone for several days).

[Dusty]

One of my favorite parts of the front range transportation system: I can fly there, take the train to Union Station, then hop on the Bustang for a cheap ride to most popular places. He11, I can check my backcountry pack on a plane, ride the Bustang to Breck, and be a short uber ride from a couple of my favorite trailheads with no car required.

This is why I keep pushing the concept of building a large transit station on i-480, It's the same idea as Union Station. Fly into Omaha, take the rail to the station where you have TONS of bus/streetcar options to get around and visit destinations. It works backwards as well, as travelers will want to use the network vs. driving. You can leave your car in your garage and travel using transit to the airport. Why come back to a cold car where you have to scrape ice off windows when you can take a warm bus/rail options.

Denver's big push was to get cars off the road during winter time. Less cars, less accidents. Plus, makes it easier to plow streets when it snows. Let's hope Omaha follows the same steps.

[Dusty]

I read somewhere that 10 years ago Denver was spending more money on transit than any other US city. Still a fraction compared to cars spending, but they decided to make transit a priority. Of course, this came with tons of opposition and naysayers. Now we are seeing a network working for them.

This is why I'm excited for the streetcar. Create a positive experience riding transit. Then you gain trust in the public to "TRY" more transit options. This leads into changing our transportation spending......spending less on car infrastructure so we can allocate more for better transit.

[NEDodger]

The part I really found interesting when he said most people that took the light rail to the airport in Denver, worked at the airport...

No surprise there. When I was in Chicago last summer, I took the El between Midway and my hotel. The airport station was dead both times. People don’t use it for airport trips. A streetcar to Eppley would be the city’s worst financial mistake.

[nebport5]

The part I really found interesting when he said most people that took the light rail to the airport in Denver, worked at the airport...

I didn't watch the video, but if that really is the case in Denver, I really wouldn't doubt that's the case in Omaha. Probably why we only have Route 16 serving the airport mon-fri in the morning and afternoon. Though I'd love to see one of the major routes experiment with frequent all day service to the airport, just to see how it goes.

I think this statement can be misinterpreted. Yes, there's a huge number of DIA employers who use it, however, a significant number of travelers utilize the A line too. I use it almost exclusively and every time I ride it there are not an insignificant number of people with suitcases. It's a relatively quick approximate 27min trip that upon exiting leads you straight up to TSA security. For anyone who lives in the city or relatively close to Union Station/A line I don't know why you would drive and deal with the hassle of parking(the greater expense)and the extra time.

I can't imagine there's great usage of bus service from Eppley at this point but I think once the initial line of the streetcar is up and running I suspect there'd be greater interest in public transit use from the airport(for those living or traveling to the urban core) particularly if it's a streetcar option. I imagine project NExT happening would considerably increase such demand.

[nebport5]

The part I really found interesting when he said most people that took the light rail to the airport in Denver, worked at the airport...

No surprise there. When I was in Chicago last summer, I took the El between Midway and my hotel. The airport station was dead both times. People don’t use it for airport trips. A streetcar to Eppley would be the city’s worst financial mistake.

I flew to Chicago in May also via Midway and the El and the train was packed both in and out. Could it have been the times you were flying?

[NEDodger]

If you want mass transit to Eppley, it needs to be a bus. The world is told over and over that streetcar lines are for development. There are no midrise development opportunities along Abbott. It’d be 300 million dollars for a bus on rails that is seldom used.

[NEDodger]

The part I really found interesting when he said most people that took the light rail to the airport in Denver, worked at the airport...

No surprise there. When I was in Chicago last summer, I took the El between Midway and my hotel. The airport station was dead both times. People don’t use it for airport trips. A streetcar to Eppley would be the city’s worst financial mistake.

I flew to Chicago in May also via Midway and the El and the train was packed both in and out. Could it have been the times you were flying?

It was around 11am getting there and about 3pm going back. Maybe not business peak, but I don’t know if those should be dead times? But yeah, near deserted. A bit creepy because of the long walk between the airport and station.

[TransitOriented]

If you want mass transit to Eppley, it needs to be a bus. The world is told over and over that streetcar lines are for development. There are no midrise development opportunities along Abbott. It’d be 300 million dollars for a bus on rails that is seldom used.

Ding, ding, winner.

[Renovator2559]

The airport station was dead both times. People don’t use it for airport trips. A streetcar to Eppley would be the city’s worst financial mistake.

That's funny, I was just in car-centric Dallas TX in May and rode the light-rail to DFW and the light rail was full, and there were plenty of people waiting in the DFW station, getting ready to board the incoming light-rail away from the airport.

Its funny how we tend to not bat an eye for projects like the Dodge expressway, which cost upwards $102M; for just a stretch of road which is unable to transport even the fraction of people in a public transit!


Also, I will repeat this again; car centric infrastructure is heavily subsidized.

[NEDodger]

The airport station was dead both times. People don’t use it for airport trips. A streetcar to Eppley would be the city’s worst financial mistake.

That's funny, I was just in car-centric Dallas TX in May and rode the light-rail to DFW and the light rail was full, and there were plenty of people waiting in the DFW station, getting ready to board the incoming light-rail away from the airport.

Its funny how we tend to not bat an eye for projects like the Dodge expressway, which cost upwards $102M; for just a stretch of road which is unable to transport even the fraction of people in a public transit!


Also, I will repeat this again; car centric infrastructure is heavily subsidized.

Just because we use 100 million dollars for an expressway that people USE doesn’t mean we should use 300 million on a streetcar people wouldn’t.

[Garrett]

Yeah Eppley should be a shuttle bus that takes people from the airport to downtown, not a streetcar. Maybe the North O route that Justin Wayne proposed could work but if we're talking Abbott, then a well designed bus service would be better.

[Renovator2559]

Just because we use 100 million dollars for an expressway that people USE doesn’t mean we should use 300 million on a streetcar people wouldn’t.

That is your opinion as a west omaha suburbanite but the data supported by other streetcars, including those of car-centric sprawled KC disagrees with your opinion.

[Dusty]

If you want mass transit to Eppley, it needs to be a bus. The world is told over and over that streetcar lines are for development. There are no midrise development opportunities along Abbott. It’d be 300 million dollars for a bus on rails that is seldom used.

Ding, ding, winner.

I agree with both of you. Streetcars move too slow to go to the airport. Start with a shuttle or standard bus. If ridership increases, you can always upgrade to a bigger capacity bus like a double decker or BRT. If it keeps going up from there, you can look at upgrading to light rail. BUT it's important to have an express service to the airport. 75 North is really the path a train could get up to speed to keep up with cars. So start with a good bus service and take it from there.

[NEDodger]

Just because we use 100 million dollars for an expressway that people USE doesn’t mean we should use 300 million on a streetcar people wouldn’t.

That is your opinion as a west omaha suburbanite but the data supported by other streetcars, including those of car-centric sprawled KC disagrees with your opinion.

You don’t know where I live, clown.

[Renovator2559]

Yeah Eppley should be a shuttle bus that takes people from the airport to downtown, not a streetcar. Maybe the North O route that Justin Wayne proposed could work but if we're talking Abbott, then a well designed bus service would be better.

Wouldn't be a bad idea if it was like LAX's FlyAway Bus, I was in one of them in May as well; they are extra comfy compared to regular LA buses (increased fare of $9 one way vs the regular fare, since its about a 40min ride from downtown).

Regardless, I have seen success in both light rail and buses to airports; though I wouldn't mind either, as long as they have adequate ride frequency.

[nebport5]

Yeah Eppley should be a shuttle bus that takes people from the airport to downtown, not a streetcar. Maybe the North O route that Justin Wayne proposed could work but if we're talking Abbott, then a well designed bus service would be better.

Well designed I think is key here. I sure the bus to the airport numbers aren't great currently but by the time the terminal is upgraded weekday only service 'til a little after 6pm isn't going to cut it.

[NEDodger]

Yeah Eppley should be a shuttle bus that takes people from the airport to downtown, not a streetcar. Maybe the North O route that Justin Wayne proposed could work but if we're talking Abbott, then a well designed bus service would be better.

Well designed I think is key here. I sure the bus to the airport numbers aren't great currently but by the time the terminal is upgraded weekday only service 'til a little after 6pm isn't going to cut it.

Agreed. It should be an option until at least 10pm, unless the ridership is like….zero.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

The part I really found interesting when he said most people that took the light rail to the airport in Denver, worked at the airport...

No surprise there. When I was in Chicago last summer, I took the El between Midway and my hotel. The airport station was dead both times. People don’t use it for airport trips. A streetcar to Eppley would be the city’s worst financial mistake.

I flew to Chicago in May also via Midway and the El and the train was packed both in and out. Could it have been the times you were flying?

It was around 11am getting there and about 3pm going back. Maybe not business peak, but I don’t know if those should be dead times? But yeah, near deserted. A bit creepy because of the long walk between the airport and station.

Maybe things have changed since I lived there, but that hasn't been my experience. Maybe those just happen to be the off hours. It always seemed that most of the people riding the orange line were going to/from the airport. Granted Midway can be a total crapshoot if it will be busy or not. O'Hare was much more consistent.

[Garrett]

Yeah Eppley should be a shuttle bus that takes people from the airport to downtown, not a streetcar. Maybe the North O route that Justin Wayne proposed could work but if we're talking Abbott, then a well designed bus service would be better.

Well designed I think is key here. I sure the bus to the airport numbers aren't great currently but by the time the terminal is upgraded weekday only service 'til a little after 6pm isn't going to cut it.

Right, it needs to be more than just a sign. I'd do a full on nice "station" for the bus with a nice shelter, and especially real time updates on bus arrivals, ideally 15 minute frequencies throughout the day, and lasting as long as it needs to to accommodate all travelers.

[nebport5]

Yeah Eppley should be a shuttle bus that takes people from the airport to downtown, not a streetcar. Maybe the North O route that Justin Wayne proposed could work but if we're talking Abbott, then a well designed bus service would be better.

Well designed I think is key here. I'm sure the bus to the airport numbers aren't great currently but by the time the terminal is upgraded weekday only service 'til a little after 6pm isn't going to cut it.

delete

[NEDodger]

The part I really found interesting when he said most people that took the light rail to the airport in Denver, worked at the airport...

No surprise there. When I was in Chicago last summer, I took the El between Midway and my hotel. The airport station was dead both times. People don’t use it for airport trips. A streetcar to Eppley would be the city’s worst financial mistake.

I flew to Chicago in May also via Midway and the El and the train was packed both in and out. Could it have been the times you were flying?

It was around 11am getting there and about 3pm going back. Maybe not business peak, but I don’t know if those should be dead times? But yeah, near deserted. A bit creepy because of the long walk between the airport and station.

Maybe things have changed since I lived there, but that hasn't been my experience. Maybe those just happen to be the off hours. It always seemed that most of the people riding the orange line were going to/from the airport. Granted Midway can be a total crapshoot if it will be busy or not. O'Hare was much more consistent.

It started to pick up a few stations away from Midway itself, but yeah…given Midway isn’t that far from the core I was surprised how dead it was all the way through to the airport.

[Busguy2010]

If you want mass transit to Eppley, it needs to be a bus. The world is told over and over that streetcar lines are for development. There are no midrise development opportunities along Abbott. It’d be 300 million dollars for a bus on rails that is seldom used.

This. The distance from Downtown to Eppley alone is the same distance of the streetcar plan, or more. So double the cost for the whole thing.

Bus for sure, light rail if we ever get there. But streetcar would never be the viable option.

[Busguy2010]

I want to see Metro try with a decent airport service. I don't think its necessary to be an extension of ORBT, just a decent bus service. I made a map with my thoughts, and I chose Route 4 because it now has 15 minute frequency all day, is one of the busier routes, has good coverage, it already interlines with Route 16, and is on the north side of the city. I wouldn't want it to stop at every point like ORBT does, only if a rider selects it. And it doesn't even have to be "enhanced" really. They could just make this happen tomorrow.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

I think Route 15 would also work, and give service to Midtown, Blackstone, UNMC, Aksarben, and SW Omaha. I'm torn. Which do you think would be the better fit?

[ita]

I want to see Metro try with a decent airport service. I don't think its necessary to be an extension of ORBT, just a decent bus service. I made a map with my thoughts, and I chose Route 4 because it now has 15 minute frequency all day, is one of the busier routes, has good coverage, it already interlines with Route 16, and is on the north side of the city. I wouldn't want it to stop at every point like ORBT does, only if a rider selects it. And it doesn't even have to be "enhanced" really. They could just make this happen tomorrow.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing

I think Route 15 would also work, and give service to Midtown, Blackstone, UNMC, Aksarben, and SW Omaha. I'm torn. Which do you think would be the better fit?

I get what you want to do with extending the 4 or 15, but then we get to the issue of making those routes too long just to get to the airport. I think you end diluting the service for everyone else using it. The difficulty is the airport is on the farside of town, not along the way of these other routes. Coming from riding the bus on Oahu, Honolulu airport was served by a few routes, but it was in the middle of downtown and western Oahu. I think increasing service to 16 throughout the day and weekends will accomplish what you want to do without making other routes longer just to go directly to the airport.

[Busguy2010]

I chose the 4 because the current round trip has 14 minutes of layover. I figure if they can eliminate the loop around Westroads, there might just be enough time left to add a leg to the airport with no impact to the route otherwise, just better utilizing the idle time.

It would be an hour from Westroads to the airport, but you could take ORBT Downtown and transfer and potentially take it down to 45 minutes. But the main point is it being frequent and available.

[Renovator2559]

Why not just have Eppley have its own bus express route to where all bus lines converge on the block between the MoO site and GLM?

LA has its own express buses "FlyAway" which don't intermix with local bus passengers. From downtown Union Station, straight to LAX (40 mins), no stops

Or better yet, build a transit station anywhere in the area , which would accommodate the buses from different routes, which commonly just park, before some of them switch line numbers. Plus this statiom could include the streetcar as well.

[Dusty]

Why not just have Eppley have its own bus express route to where all bus lines converge on the block between the MoO site and GLM?

LA has its own express buses "FlyAway" which don't intermix with local bus passengers. From downtown Union Station, straight to LAX (40 mins), no stops

Or better yet, build a transit station anywhere in the area , which would accommodate the buses from different routes, which commonly just park, before some of them switch line numbers. Plus this statiom could include the streetcar as well.

Not everyone wants to go downtown just so they can go to airport. But I agree to have an express line from airport to one major hub where people can disperse and go different ways. I have already been talking about building a transit center as a central hub on i-480 for the urban core. Airport to Station is roughly 10 minutes. There is a separate thread for this topic.
i-480 Transit Station

Once the airport expansions and Farnam Streetcar is done, I expect a surge in people wanting a line to airport. Until then, I don't see a whole lot of changes. Getting the bus service expanded on the weekends would be a huge improvement.

[Dusty]

Has there been any mention the hours of operation for the Farnam Streetcar? Will it be 7 days a week? 8am-5PM? Evening service?

[Louie]

Has there been any mention the hours of operation for the Farnam Streetcar? Will it be 7 days a week? 8am-5PM? Evening service?

The preliminary info is saying 12-18 hours on weekends and 19 hours on weekdays.

[Renovator2559]

Not everyone wants to go downtown just so they can go to airport. But I agree to have an express line from airport to one major hub where people can disperse and go different ways. I have already been talking about building a transit center as a central hub on i-480 for the urban core. Airport to Station is roughly 10 minutes. There is a separate thread for this topic.
i-480 Transit Station

Good reminder of that thread, quite intreaged at what you have come up with so far. As a transit hub, we could have something better, than have a line of buses from different routes parked on the street with only a bus bench that allows 3 people to sit and wait.

Maybe you and Eric Miller can combine ideas in the implementation of a transit hub that's none existent ar the moment.

[nebport5]

Yeah Eppley should be a shuttle bus that takes people from the airport to downtown, not a streetcar. Maybe the North O route that Justin Wayne proposed could work but if we're talking Abbott, then a well designed bus service would be better.

Well designed I think is key here. I sure the bus to the airport numbers aren't great currently but by the time the terminal is upgraded weekday only service 'til a little after 6pm isn't going to cut it.

Right, it needs to be more than just a sign. I'd do a full on nice "station" for the bus with a nice shelter, and especially real time updates on bus arrivals, ideally 15 minute frequencies throughout the day, and lasting as long as it needs to to accommodate all travelers.

That'd be great. Where do you planners foresee an ideal location for such?

[halgy]

Has there been any mention the hours of operation for the Farnam Streetcar? Will it be 7 days a week? 8am-5PM? Evening service?

The preliminary info is saying 12-18 hours on weekends and 19 hours on weekdays.

Strange to think that we'd spend all this money on a streetcar, but then not run it as much on weekends. If this thing gets built and I still can't get from downtown to Blackstone and back on Saturday nights, I'm going to be annoyed.

Yeah Eppley should be a shuttle bus that takes people from the airport to downtown, not a streetcar. Maybe the North O route that Justin Wayne proposed could work but if we're talking Abbott, then a well designed bus service would be better.

I'd agree that going only along Abbott wouldn't provide many development opportunities. Wayne's route through North O or even a slightly shorter route through Carter Lake (like on Locust St) would be much better for that, though at the cost of a longer trip and higher construction costs.

That said, I don't think the appeal of a well-connected airport should be disregarded. The goal of the Farnam streetcar is to provide fixed infrastructure to promote development in the urban core. Having that route connected directly to the airport could be a big draw, promoting more and better development along the Farnam line as well as along the airport extension. It would be a selling point for any development, be it office, tourist, or residential. A bus line could serve much the same purpose, but not to the same degree (for reasons, see any of the posts defending the Farnam streetcar over a bus).

To be clear, I'm not saying that an airport connection should be the highest priority, and starting with better bus service is the obvious and needed first step regardless. However, if my above reasoning is actually true, the connection also loses some of its impact the longer we wait. The extension can't promote bigger development along Farnam if it is built after Farnam is mostly redeveloped.

And maybe my assumption is completely wrong, but I do like to dream about not having to take an Uber to the airport.

[Dusty]

Has there been any mention the hours of operation for the Farnam Streetcar? Will it be 7 days a week? 8am-5PM? Evening service?

The preliminary info is saying 12-18 hours on weekends and 19 hours on weekdays.

Strange to think that we'd spend all this money on a streetcar, but then not run it as much on weekends. If this thing gets built and I still can't get from downtown to Blackstone and back on Saturday nights, I'm going to be annoyed.

Yes, I agree! Friday and Saturday night should have priority on extended evening hours more so than any other night.

[Busguy2010]

Has there been any mention the hours of operation for the Farnam Streetcar? Will it be 7 days a week? 8am-5PM? Evening service?

The preliminary info is saying 12-18 hours on weekends and 19 hours on weekdays.

Strange to think that we'd spend all this money on a streetcar, but then not run it as much on weekends. If this thing gets built and I still can't get from downtown to Blackstone and back on Saturday nights, I'm going to be annoyed.

Yes, I agree! Friday and Saturday night should have priority on extended evening hours more so than any other night.

I agree. I get that the latest majority of people work til 11-11:30 on weekdays, but those same jobs wrap up at the same time on Saturday and Sunday. So it never made sense to me that Metro's hours of service drop off so much on weekends.

I don't know exactly which ones do around the region, but I know some transit authorities run some of their buses 24 hours. You'd think we could swing running some of our buses past bar let out.

[Garrett]

KC runs theirs til 1 AM on Friday and Saturday night, and midnight all other nights. That should be a minimum.