Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[Coyote]

OK - Let us word this differently. Would you rather have $100,000,000 worth of development in North Downtown without city support
or - have $500,000,000 worth of development and additional tax revenue with city infrastructure support?

[midtown charlie]

Here is an interesting article on the development that light rail is creating in Phoenix. One of the quintessential automobile cities in the country.

Quote from the East Valley Tribune

The Metro light-rail system has triggered $1.5 billion of development in Phoenix

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=72654

The changes there are dramatic and yet the trains won't even start running until December 2008.

[the1wags]

I'm sure everyone has already heard this but thought I'd start a thread about it.

HDR completed their streetcar study. Proposed phase 1 goes from Creighton across Webster st to 10th. Down 10th past the Qwest Center and continues until Jackson. West on Jackson to 16th. North on 16th to Farnam, then east on Farnam to complete a DT/Old Market loop.

Link to the W-H article.

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=1636&u_sid=2270013

[eomaha]

[Coyote]

I ran into Tuna at HyVee the other day - and we talked about whether we liked the Modern looking cars or the retro cars. I am still divided and can see that advantages of either one. But kind of wished we would go retro.

[MTO]

IMO those cars look blaw, I think they should a little more hi-tech looking or retro.

[eomaha]

I like the modern cars over a 'heritage' trolley car such as what Little Rock has.

[Swift]

I would mutch rather have modern cars too, but less boxy than those ones, more sleak like SF's MUNI.

[the1wags]

Agreed. Modern but sleek. Think Houston's light rail cars, perfect IMO.

[MTO]

How about modern retro like what chrysler and others have done.

[DTO Luv]

Bold red line: Phase 1 of LRT
Pink lines: Traditional Old Market area
Blue Lines: North Downtown. Area most likely to see new development
Green Lines: Future baseball stadium for the Royals
Yellow Lines: Creighton Campus, residence halls, and sports complexes.
Orange line: Future Phase 2 to Midtown/UNMC area.





_____



Here is a close up of the Old Market area.

Bold red line: Phase 1 LRT
Pink Lines: Traditional Old Market area
Light Blue lines: West Old Market. Already has an established residential population with more conversions happening and new construction going on as we speak.





______


Midtown Future Phase 2.

Orange Line: Future Phase 2
Yellow Lines: Mutual of Omaha property being redeveloped as Midtown Crossing and Turner Park.
Purple Lines: Creighton Campus

[Harpoon]

DTO, this is a streetcar, not light rail. There is a difference you know. If not, just ask Zephyr, he will give you a 4 hour lecture on the subject that might put you to sleep.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Haha. Well, I'll go ahead and correct YOU, Harpoon.

I don't know what you were referring to that DTO said, but a streetcar system is CERTAINLY a FORM of Light Rail.

There are light rail systems that run on the street (streetcars) and there are those that opperate as a "subway" or "L" type system, and there are those that do both, like St. Louis' MetroLink.

[Swift]

If I'm not mistaken, the "light" in lightrail refers to the weight of the train running on the track. So streetcars would be lightrail.

[MTO]

Just dont call them trolley's and you will be fine.

[omahahawk]

Man, its great to finally see this site up and running again! I'm really pleased that Mr. Fahey seems to be exited about the whole streetcar thing. My question to everybody though is "What is it going to take to get the city council on board with this?" Right now, I have to admit I do see them as a stumbling block. I really find the thought that this form of transportation could actually be a reality in Omaha by 2010-11 to be VERY exciting!

[DTO Luv]

In one of the articles it had an early breakdown of what the City Council thought.

Jim Suttle and Vokal were for it. The only one who were against it were Chuck Seigerson. (Frank Brown made no comments) The rest were kind of wishy-washy on it.

[MTO]

Sometimes about the only way to get the commissioners on your side is to try and buy them off and if that wont work then muscle them. Correct Lou?

[omahahawk]

Well, what was interesting is that when the OWH did their little online poll, the pro streetcar group outweighed the naysayers about 2 to 1. So who knows, maybe it will happen with the efforts of an interested mayor and OmahaStreetcar.

[DTO Luv]

Our own forumer, redfield, was in the OWH today making some great arguments for streetcars after some guy wrote in against them.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Great pulse letter, Redfield! Thanks for taking the time to do that.

I love the point that "the streetcar won't make money...and it's not supposed to, just like a highway doesn't make money."

That is SUCH a perfect comeback to anyone who wants to bring up money and costs.

Of course you want to do the project as economically effectively as possible, but that is not the concern. The concern is social equity, liveability, economic development...

Anyway, thanks again.

[laserdisque]

I talked to Jim Suttle the other day, and he seemed to think that this project is a go. He said somthing to the effect of "we are going to make this happen." Sweet.

[DTO Luv]

I was looking for that interview I did with Suttle and taped with my camera. If I can find it I'll put it up on YouTube.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I talked to Jim Suttle the other day, and he seemed to think that this project is a go. He said somthing to the effect of "we are going to make this happen." Sweet.

Nice!..

Thanks for the feedback..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[joeglow]

I love the point that "the streetcar won't make money...and it's not supposed to, just like a highway doesn't make money."

That is SUCH a perfect comeback to anyone who wants to bring up money and costs.

-I don't that is the point. Rather, the question is more along the lines of how much use will it get for the cost. Plus, once a road is in, the costs, comparatively speaking, are not that much (occasional repairs). A street car would have CONTINUAL costs (energy to run, maintenance of cars, etc.).

I would like to see something like this happen. However, I am not convinced it is needed just yet. I just think people go to Chicago, see how cool it is and then try to convince themselves on how we can make it work.

[DTO Luv]

Chicago doesn't have streetcars.

I can pretty much guarantee you that it costs much more to maintain a road than a streetcar. I don't know how you could live in Omaha and not see that roads DO need constant maintanance.They need to be repatched, sanded, shoveled which in turn leads to more maintance from the maintanance. You act as if streetcars are going to breakdown every block.

Roads may not use energy themselves but they encourage the use of gas (unrenewable) where streetcars would run on electricity. Which costs more?

Everytime cities have contemplated using streetcars ridership has exceeded expectations. It's safe to assume that Omaha would be no different.

[MTO]

Chicago has everything else...

I think the UP should donate some track. That stuff is probably pennys to them and it would help them help their own home town. We can build them another memorial in North Downtown or something.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

I love the point that "the streetcar won't make money...and it's not supposed to, just like a highway doesn't make money."

That is SUCH a perfect comeback to anyone who wants to bring up money and costs.

-I don't that is the point. Rather, the question is more along the lines of how much use will it get for the cost. Plus, once a road is in, the costs, comparatively speaking, are not that much (occasional repairs). A street car would have CONTINUAL costs (energy to run, maintenance of cars, etc.).

I would like to see something like this happen. However, I am not convinced it is needed just yet. I just think people go to Chicago, see how cool it is and then try to convince themselves on how we can make it work.

I'm well aware of all that. I think you're missing MY point, which is that people use the cost of building a streetcar as an excuse not to build it all the time, overlooking the fact that roads are built ALL THE TIME at high costs, but most people just overlook it. Unless the streetcar service is free, that's what the fare is for...paying for operation, just like a toll or a tax is used to pay for construction and upkeep of bridges, interstates, roads, etc.

And actually, I would say most people that go to Chicago and experience that city's amazing transit system, think, "Wow, Chicago's cool. Omaha sucks." Not "Wow, Chicago's cool. I wish Omaha had a great transit system so it could be cool like Chicago."

I WISH most people thought the latter.

[joeglow]

And actually, I would say most people that go to Chicago and experience that city's amazing transit system, think, "Wow, Chicago's cool. Omaha sucks." Not "Wow, Chicago's cool. I wish Omaha had a great transit system so it could be cool like Chicago."

I WISH most people thought the latter.

-Possibly. Again, I just want us to be cautious with this idea. The city is already facing a potential 3 BILLION dollar deficit over the decade or so (with the Qwest, pension payments and updating of sewers). We better make DAMN sure something costing in the middle 8 figures makes sense giving the potential financial health of the city.

After all, I REALLY want a dodge viper and KNOW I would look damn cool in one, but that certainly wouldn't fly with the wife.

[Swift]

But if that Dodge Viper increased the value of your house (and your neighbors houses) by 30%, then your wife might be singing a different tune. Light Rail lines increase property value and spur economic development (i.e., bigger tax base).

It's not like we're diving in without first testing the water. The city already funded one study showing that LRT is an economic boon. How many more studies do you need?

Talk about deja vu, I feel like I was just having these same arguments with people about the Qwest center.

[joeglow]

It's not like we're diving in without first testing the water. The city already funded one study showing that LRT is an economic boon. How many more studies do you need?

-If you accept that as proof, that is your business? All I have seen are vague predictions that it will be an economic boon. Show me some type of estimates. What will it bring in in extra property tax revenue from the increases in property value? Show me how much the average person will save in gas. Show me that if taxes need to go up, it will NOT be by more than the average person saves from this. Show me a detailed analysis of the costs and benefits other cities have had (something more than just "it was economic boon"). Sorry, but I do not take 50-100 MILLION dollar investments lightly.

Talk about deja vu, I feel like I was just having these same arguments with people about the Qwest center.

-I supported the Qwest. However, I would not be patting yourself on the back considering a part of the 3 BILLION dollar shortfall will be from the Qwest. While I am happy we have it, there is NO denying that the impact on taxes is a LOT worse than people (yourself included, I assume) said it would be.

[DTO Luv]

Joe you seem to have lots of time on your hands. Look up the info on economic development yourself. Look at Portland. The Pearl District where the streetcars started was pretty much like what North DT is today. Some old buildings and alot of nothing. I think you should check out the Omaha Streetcar forum as they will be much better equipped to answer your questions.

[joeglow]

Look up the info on economic development yourself.

-I shouldn't have to. That is why I elect the politicians I do. It is their JOB to do this research and make it available to the public before committing so much of their money.

[joeglow]

I think you should check out the Omaha Streetcar forum as they will be much better equipped to answer your questions.

Where is the forum? I found an e-mail address and asked some questions, but it is a dead e-mail address.

[Coyote]

Where is the forum? I found an e-mail address and asked some questions, but it is a dead e-mail address.

Omaha Streetcar Forums

[DTO Luv]

Look up the info on economic development yourself.

-I shouldn't have to. That is why I elect the politicians I do. It is their JOB to do this research and make it available to the public before committing so much of their money.

You're not following me. In this day and age of the internet you can find out pretty much anything. I know we've talked about the economic benefit from streetcars. I know I've seen specifics on how much money has been spent developing areas around streetcar lines. I've even gone to meetings about them and heard first hand from experts who have seen streecar lines built and the development that followed. So I'm pretty sure you can find what you're looking for.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

I'm ALL for this. You guys know that. I think we just need to DO IT! Let's get this first phase out of the way. Let's get some track in the ground!!!

BUT...

The more I think about this, the more I think the phase one route is COMPLETELY wrong. Who's going to ride it? People from the small hotels on Cuming? Creighton Students? I don't think this covers enough ground to have great ridership!

I think Phase 1 and 2 should be combined in a sense. Why not have the line go from Creighton to QCO on Webster, head south on 10th to Farnam (1 block from the Old Market), and then head out to the Med Center on the new two-way Farnam Street????

It would connect a major University Med Center at one end, a Major University at the other, with Mutual of Omaha, Midtown Crossing, Financial District, Old Market, Qwest Center, and North Downtown in between...

THAT would get ridership, and bring more economic development out into Midtown!

Thoughts?

*I posted this in the North Downtown thread, too.

[almighty_tuna]

I'm ALL for this. You guys know that. I think we just need to DO IT! Let's get this first phase out of the way. Let's get some track in the ground!!!

BUT...

The more I think about this, the more I think the phase one route is COMPLETELY wrong. Who's going to ride it? People from the small hotels on Cuming? Creighton Students? I don't think this covers enough ground to have great ridership!

I think Phase 1 and 2 should be combined in a sense. Why not have the line go from Creighton to QCO on Webster, head south on 10th to Farnam (1 block from the Old Market), and then head out to the Med Center on the new two-way Farnam Street????

It would connect a major University Med Center at one end, a Major University at the other, with Mutual of Omaha, Midtown Crossing, Financial District, Old Market, Qwest Center, and North Downtown in between...

THAT would get ridership, and bring more economic development out into Midtown!

Thoughts?

*I posted this in the North Downtown thread, too.

That would certainly provide a large ridership base. However, there's not enough money to make that sort of first line. As it stands the 3+mile starter line is very large for starters. Disagree with me if you want, but NDT needs more help than midtown when it comes to economic growth. The MoFo development will be a catalyst for Midtown on it's own.

The Phase 1 layout, as outlined in the OWH, is serving 3 very different needs in 3 very different areas of downtown.

1. 21st & Webster to QC - Economic growth of NDT. Webster goes through the heart of NDT and is not exactly a sight for sore eyes right now. But, that's the point. It will be within a couple blocks, and in some cases adjacent to; Creighton Soccer Stadium, Slowdown, Cuming St. hotels, QC, Creighton dorms. The rest of that area is rather blighted. The need here is future economic growth. The non-thoroughfare status of Webster St. will prevent traffic tie-ups and create a more intimate atmosphere than possible on Cuming. Plus, as great as streetcars are, I don't want to see one sitting on Cuming St. while people are stacked up to 480 trying to get to the QC for a concert. The area around Webster is nearly a blank slate for development, centered around the streetcar.

2. QC to OM - People moving. I see the need here as being primarily a people mover. When thousands exit the QC from a game, concert, whatever, the streetcar will provide a way to park-and-ride to the OM for pre or post event dining, drinking and general entertainment in the OM. There will be some use as conventioneers, others get from hotels to QC or OM, etc. but this is a connecter piece with some economic potential around the Swanson site and the fringes of the OM. Once you get into the OM I don't believe the establishment will change, but fringe development should increase.

3. 11th & Farnam west to 16th, south to Jackson, east to 10th. This touches the financial areas and the theatre areas. Cruising right past the Orpheum and the immediate residential towers the daytime ridership will be residents and downtown employees - lunch to the OM or somthing similar, perhaps to Cubby's for a cantalope. Night time will being great accessability to the Orpheum, Holland Center and the new restaurants opening up on Farnam.

Point being, you've got to put a streetcar where there's most need for development and connectedness (NDT), then be able to provide a destination for people to ride to (QC, OM). The OM and QC are the carrot in front of the NDT horse. Getting phase 1 up to 16th and to the large transit stops is just good mass transit sense. Give the NDT developers a reason to build in NDT because they can get to the financial and entertainment districts for free, and without plugging meters. Ridership will come with development. Getting initial ridership is important but this thing will not be built for what's in place now. If you want ridership, put it between DTO and the airport and build park & rides. Ridership will not pay for this, and it certainly won't sustain it alone. If you want economic development, and the tax dollars it brings, put in through NDT. THAT will be the payoff and sustainability of the streetcar in Omaha.

If you put $50M of streetcar on a DTO-MTO route with 20 square blocks of area available for growth those blocks will see growth - Farnam would see growth. But Mofo will not tear down their building for something newer because of a streetcar, FNB will not decide their shiny new tower isn't swank enough, demolish it and build anew. Put the $50M investment on a route where there's 50 square blocks ripe for development and you will have much higher return on investment. Experience success there, then expand your ridership base.



oh, and great to have the site back!

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Those are all great points, Tuna, and I certainly agree. That said, I think we can BOTH agree that having the line extend to Midtown in the first phase would be a total bonus, regardless of likliness of it happening and cost.

I would say, that while most economic development eyes are on North Downtown (not complaining), the Farnam and Harney corridors connecting Downtown and Midtown offer just as much infill development potential (if not more) than North Downtown because in this district are existing urban neighborhoods, that with the rise of sprawl, have had holes punched in their fabric. I see these neighborhoods as being Omaha's REAL (potentially) VIBRANT URBAN NEIGHBORHOODS. Midtown Crossing is an amazing example of the kind of infill that can, should, and will take place here, and I love that it will be in place by the time the streetcar expands to Midtown.

None of this is to say that I don't also see the value of North Downtown as an entertainment/nightlife/sports district. That's something Omaha needs, and WILL get...obviously .

[DTO Luv]

There was a big front page story in the Midlands section today about DT building owners, investors, and listing agents who were behind the streetcar effort. It also touched on economic develepment the expect to occur.