Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[Garrett]

"Won't" and "Isn't willing to" are two distinct concepts.

It gets us to the same point. As much as I'd love a wide-reaching tram network, Omaha isn't laid out to easily do it, and its voter base isn't going to pay to brute force it. Pushing for a tram network or proper light rail (which has the same issues) isn't going to have a good return on effort. (but then again I said the same thing about the streetcar, so I'll 100% support it if one of y'all get it approved)

There are a few logical extensions for the current streetcar (Millwork Common, zoo), but after those we'd be better served building out more ORBT lines and express busses, and otherwise improve the local bus network.

Oh I agree, I don't think Omaha needs a wide ranging tram network. I'm moreso saying that low hanging fruit, like giving the streetcar exclusive lanes, especially in the couplet sections on Farnam and Harney, is much more manageable and would make for a better line.

[halgy]

"Won't" and "Isn't willing to" are two distinct concepts.

It gets us to the same point. As much as I'd love a wide-reaching tram network, Omaha isn't laid out to easily do it, and its voter base isn't going to pay to brute force it. Pushing for a tram network or proper light rail (which has the same issues) isn't going to have a good return on effort. (but then again I said the same thing about the streetcar, so I'll 100% support it if one of y'all get it approved)

There are a few logical extensions for the current streetcar (Millwork Common, zoo), but after those we'd be better served building out more ORBT lines and express busses, and otherwise improve the local bus network.

Oh I agree, I don't think Omaha needs a wide ranging tram network. I'm moreso saying that low hanging fruit, like giving the streetcar exclusive lanes, especially in the couplet sections on Farnam and Harney, is much more manageable and would make for a better line.

If there's one thing all this downtown construction has shown me, it is that Farnam/Harney really don't need 4 lanes each. One lane works fine 95% of the time, and two would be fine 99% of the time (traffic around shows/games will always be bad). So there's o reason not to reserve the other lanes for streetcar/busses/bikes.

Remember when people freaked out when a lane on Dodge/Douglas was designated for the ORBT? And yet, here we are 6 years later and downtown hasn't collapsed into a continual traffic jam.

[Mapguy]

I think the most logical expansion is the UNMC campus.

I predict theyll want 2 stops. One at either 42nd or 44th and one stop at their Catalyst campus. I think they would make a lot of use out of that big garage they just built if people can use it to get closer to the center of their campus.

Probably the biggest sticking point will be the cost of a 2 stop expansion. They didnt really future proof the utilities underneath 48th st for a streetcar expansion by moving them to 1 side or making the street wider for a future streetcar.

Ideally an expansion would be 3 stops with a final stop on Leavenworth and Saddle creek. This would hook in with some bus lines and put a grocery store directly on the line making it highly useful for people who want to choose not to have a car along the route.

[GenX]

I think the most logical expansion is the UNMC campus.

I predict theyll want 2 stops. One at either 42nd or 44th and one stop at their Catalyst campus. I think they would make a lot of use out of that big garage they just built if people can use it to get closer to the center of their campus.

Probably the biggest sticking point will be the cost of a 2 stop expansion. They didnt really future proof the utilities underneath 48th st for a streetcar expansion by moving them to 1 side or making the street wider for a future streetcar.

Ideally an expansion would be 3 stops with a final stop on Leavenworth and Saddle creek. This would hook in with some bus lines and put a grocery store directly on the line making it highly useful for people who want to choose not to have a car along the route.

Sounds like an outstanding plan to me!

[locoluke]

I'm moreso saying that low hanging fruit, like giving the streetcar exclusive lanes, especially in the couplet sections on Farnam and Harney, is much more manageable and would make for a better line.

Looking at the 60% design roll plots, they're already dieting Farnam and Harney down to two travel lanes in either direction on the couplet section. Unfortunately, they've seemingly decided that more slant parking and the protected bikeway were better uses of space than a dedicated transit lane (for record, I am not anti-bikeway).

If you read the latest Grow Omaha column about station design, you'll surely also pick up on the fact that the only places the streetcar will have dedicated lanes are to prevent the streetcar from impeding car traffic rather than to keep car traffic from impeding the streetcar.

[Busguy2010]

I was wondering what the deal was with the Capitol loop. So now I see that though it travels east on Capitol, the tracks are still on the north side of the street so it can drop off on the CHI side of the street, meaning it travels the opposite direction of traffic in its own lane for a short distance.

As far as dedicated lanes, I never saw it as a benefit for either the streetcar or vehicle traffic. Both streets simply don't see the traffic volume to justify for either ones good. No advantage to be gained by dedicated lanes.

[stadsborgare]

[Busguy2010]

I meant in the running sections of Farnam and Harney. At 10th and Capitol I see the purpose.

[iamjacobm]

Unless I am missing something this looking like the line won't be going north of 10th on Capitol like was originally planned.

[Louie]

Unless I am missing something this looking like the line won't be going north of 10th on Capitol like was originally planned.

I thought that was an extension plan and not the original?

[Garrett]

Unless I am missing something this looking like the line won't be going north of 10th on Capitol like was originally planned.

I thought that was an extension plan and not the original?

The original plan had the line going up to Cass on 10th and then 42nd in the west. This was pared back to the current plan without the 10th street section and terminating between 39th and 40th quite some time ago though

[iamjacobm]

I knew about 40th street but I guess I missed the 10th street reduction.

[Busguy2010]

I think its still on the table at some point. They had to lay tracks east of 10th regardless just to access the maintenance facility, might as well use it as part of the route. The original plan to use 10th to Cass had only been there for CHI, and the stop they now will have does the same. I think there's very much a possibility of a future extension, or whole new routevthat could use the north portion of 10th.

[Trips1]

I was wondering what the deal was with the Capitol loop. So now I see that though it travels east on Capitol, the tracks are still on the north side of the street so it can drop off on the CHI side of the street, meaning it travels the opposite direction of traffic in its own lane for a short distance.

As far as dedicated lanes, I never saw it as a benefit for either the streetcar or vehicle traffic. Both streets simply don't see the traffic volume to justify for either ones good. No advantage to be gained by dedicated lanes.

They need a dedicated lane on 10th and also Capital for events. They set the traffic lights to only outbound traffic only for 15+ minutes to get cars out of the area. If they are north on 10th trying to get to Capital, they will have a 20+ minute delay when people want to use it the most. I'm guessing for events they will queue multiple cars for when the event gets out. The current plan looks to eliminate the rideshare drop off area that most experienced drivers use.

[arch_RP_planner]

Especially now with the under review plans for Union Omaha's Stadium, the assoc. district/east extension of Millwork, I feel it is a no brainer to extend the streetcar eventually up to that site. That area will already have a good share of population by the time the OG line will be complete, and with more potential development possible, plus with the addition of event congestion in the area, seems like a win-win. However the connection happens, like alignment, terminus stop location, etc. I just think it would be a major missed opportunity to not extend it up there so that all of our large event centers/arenas and ball-parks/stadiums are along the transit route.

[locoluke]

I was wondering what the deal was with the Capitol loop. So now I see that though it travels east on Capitol, the tracks are still on the north side of the street so it can drop off on the CHI side of the street, meaning it travels the opposite direction of traffic in its own lane for a short distance.

As far as dedicated lanes, I never saw it as a benefit for either the streetcar or vehicle traffic. Both streets simply don't see the traffic volume to justify for either ones good. No advantage to be gained by dedicated lanes.

They need a dedicated lane on 10th and also Capital for events. They set the traffic lights to only outbound traffic only for 15+ minutes to get cars out of the area. If they are north on 10th trying to get to Capital, they will have a 20+ minute delay when people want to use it the most. I'm guessing for events they will queue multiple cars for when the event gets out. The current plan looks to eliminate the rideshare drop off area that most experienced drivers use.

It'd have to be better implemented than the bus lane on Dodge that gets absolutely clogged with cars turning right into the parking garage at 13th Street whenever any sort of an event is happening. It really doesn't help that there's an ORBT station just before the garage entrance, so buses must wait in traffic to reach the station and can't just go around it. A streetcar wouldn't be able to go around right-turning traffic either for obvious reasons.

[Busguy2010]

Just to be clear, my comment was about the every day commute along Farnam and Harney not seeing any mutual benefit from dedicated lanes. The dedicated lane on Capitol clearly does have a benefit during events. I thought Farnam/Harney was the subject matter given it was stated there aren't any dedicated lanes, and the only dedicated portion is very short, and will only be effective during event traffic. I still think it's no big deal theres not dedicated lanes on Farnam/Harney, and it wouldnt be "better" if it did.

[Dusty]

I noticed a lot of you keep using the word extension incorrectly. Let's extend to the zoo, Millworks Commons, or down Cuming St, etc. The only extension that may happen is Westbound to connect to UNMC. The starter line is mostly designed. Any extra lines down different corridors would be an expansion off the starter.

Extension- Adding to an existing route to make it longer and connect more destinations.
Expansion- Adding a new line that runs independently but may connect to other routes.
Starter/Trunkline- Primary line that other lines tie into.

And yes...you can have an extension off an expansion line too. For example. Building a 10th St expansion line that runs separate from the Farnam starter line. I have suggested building it in 2 segments: North and South. I will post my North Segment picture again. This would build tons excitement and support. Plus, it buys us time to do studies on the South segment. When you add the South segment, it becomes an extension of the expansion line.

[arch_RP_planner]

I noticed a lot of you keep using the word extension incorrectly. Let's extend to the zoo, Millworks Commons, or down Cuming St, etc. The only extension that may happen is Westbound to connect to UNMC. The starter line is mostly designed. Any extra lines down different corridors would be an expansion off the starter.

So what you just described is what my concept was, just an extension. It is a part of the OG line, just further expands the amenities and attractions that can all be experienced from this one line. This is not a whole separate line, and was not intended to be so... if the city wanted to build another, I would recommend 13th st to the zoo, since the zoo would be the next top/major attraction that would benefit for fixed transit services, but after all of this backlash for the streetcar, I am guessing there will not be any extension/expansion plans for at least the next decade, if at all. I think the OG line going from the edge district west of Saddle Creek out to Union Omaha/Millwork Commons is a great track, serves major commercial, residential, and entertainment hubs, plus that line would still be effectively a mile shorter than KC's streetcar, but with 1.5x the existing population density along the corridor.

Especially now with the under review plans for Union Omaha's Stadium, the assoc. district/east extension of Millwork, I feel it is a no brainer to extend the streetcar eventually up to that site. That area will already have a good share of population by the time the OG line will be complete, and with more potential development possible, plus with the addition of event congestion in the area, seems like a win-win. However the connection happens, like alignment, terminus stop location, etc. I just think it would be a major missed opportunity to not extend it up there so that all of our large event centers/arenas and ball-parks/stadiums are along the transit route.

[Dusty]

I noticed a lot of you keep using the word extension incorrectly. Let's extend to the zoo, Millworks Commons, or down Cuming St, etc. The only extension that may happen is Westbound to connect to UNMC. The starter line is mostly designed. Any extra lines down different corridors would be an expansion off the starter.

So what you just described is what my concept was, just an extension. It is a part of the OG line, just further expands the amenities and attractions that can all be experienced from this one line. This is not a whole separate line, and was not intended to be so... if the city wanted to build another, I would recommend 13th st to the zoo, since the zoo would be the next top/major attraction that would benefit for fixed transit services, but after all of this backlash for the streetcar, I am guessing there will not be any extension/expansion plans for at least the next decade, if at all. I think the OG line going from the edge district west of Saddle Creek out to Union Omaha/Millwork Commons is a great track, serves major commercial, residential, and entertainment hubs, plus that line would still be effectively a mile shorter than KC's streetcar, but with 1.5x the existing population density along the corridor.

I get the appeal of keep adding to the starter to create more destinations, but that becomes its pitfall to an inefficient line. There more you add, the more it becomes a downtown circulator and less about transportation. If you don't add more trains to the line, the headways increase. I brought up awhile ago about route design and the correlation to ridership numbers. The routes with a linear path out performed in ridership verses zig-zagging all over downtown to hit attractions. In simplest terms a coverage route is least effective.

When we first proposed the streetcar line, they had that small extension to connect the Convention Center and Stadium. I jokingly called it the tail. lol. I'm glad they cut it back. It makes it a more streamlined starter line. Maybe in their mind they had one shot to include as much as possible in case the public rejected any expansion. What changed everything was the study awarded for a North Omaha expansion line. This could include a lot of different route options: down 19th to Lake, down Abbott to airport, or through Millwork Commons. What I have been pushing is a 10th Street expansion line that runs from Millwork Commons to the Zoo. Yes...this could include a couplet on 13th to include the Little Bohemia area.

[Busguy2010]

The full picture seems like its starting to come together. With the amount of critics out there, the headache of construction doesn't bode well for much enthusiasm for future expansion.

I do think it will be quite some time before we see another, as we'll have to get through the prove it phase, which couldnt start until 2030. Probably takes a couple years to say "yeah, okay so it did work". If it does work, then I'll be looking for various extensions, and perhaps more work around 2035.

In the event it falls short, and maybe this is the only one we ever get, we got the right one. Just think if we ended up with the zoo-airport "tourist" line of the late 90's, or the even worse "downtown loop", we would never have one than anybody would use. At least this one hits all the vitals.

So as of right how, im thinking the reality of it may end up less ambitious than I had previously hoped. So if I leave it at this starter line, I could be happy with -

10th extension to the zoo
Dundee extension
North Downtown

All are off the end of the base route, and fairly short. There would still always be 15 minute frequency on Farnam, with every other one going down each various extension.

[halgy]

Dundee extension

Which route would this take? I also want to see Dundee connected, but the street grid is a bit awkward to make it work.

[Garrett]

Dundee extension

Which route would this take? I also want to see Dundee connected, but the street grid is a bit awkward to make it work.

Historically, the route to Dundee picked up where the current line will terminate at 40th/Farnam, going north on 40th, west on Dodge, and then it ran in a couplet on 49th St and 50th St, then west on Underwood to 56th St right at Memorial Park. If they could deal with the Saddle Creek area, it could possibly just run west on Farnam to 49th and 50th instead.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... 76864&z=18

[arch_RP_planner]

I noticed a lot of you keep using the word extension incorrectly. Let's extend to the zoo, Millworks Commons, or down Cuming St, etc. The only extension that may happen is Westbound to connect to UNMC. The starter line is mostly designed. Any extra lines down different corridors would be an expansion off the starter.

So what you just described is what my concept was, just an extension. It is a part of the OG line, just further expands the amenities and attractions that can all be experienced from this one line. This is not a whole separate line, and was not intended to be so... if the city wanted to build another, I would recommend 13th st to the zoo, since the zoo would be the next top/major attraction that would benefit for fixed transit services, but after all of this backlash for the streetcar, I am guessing there will not be any extension/expansion plans for at least the next decade, if at all. I think the OG line going from the edge district west of Saddle Creek out to Union Omaha/Millwork Commons is a great track, serves major commercial, residential, and entertainment hubs, plus that line would still be effectively a mile shorter than KC's streetcar, but with 1.5x the existing population density along the corridor.

I get the appeal of keep adding to the starter to create more destinations, but that becomes its pitfall to an inefficient line. There more you add, the more it becomes a downtown circulator and less about transportation. If you don't add more trains to the line, the headways increase. I brought up awhile ago about route design and the correlation to ridership numbers. The routes with a linear path out performed in ridership verses zig-zagging all over downtown to hit attractions. In simplest terms a coverage route is least effective.

When we first proposed the streetcar line, they had that small extension to connect the Convention Center and Stadium. I jokingly called it the tail. lol. I'm glad they cut it back. It makes it a more streamlined starter line. Maybe in their mind they had one shot to include as much as possible in case the public rejected any expansion. What changed everything was the study awarded for a North Omaha expansion line. This could include a lot of different route options: down 19th to Lake, down Abbott to airport, or through Millwork Commons. What I have been pushing is a 10th Street expansion line that runs from Millwork Commons to the Zoo. Yes...this could include a couplet on 13th to include the Little Bohemia area.

So I fully get you position, and do believe zig zagging across a large area is not beneficial. But an extension up 10th st to Millwork IS a good extension considering right now, Charles Schwab, Millwork, and now potentially the Union Omaha stadium would all be served through this extension... And its one turn, which I do hardly believe constitutes "a pitfall to an inefficient line". The only feasible extensions to our line could be into the edge district or Dundee west, or up 10th st past the stadiums, and said extension wouldn't even be increasing the length of the round trip by 1/3; would still be over a mile shorter than KCs. and their streetcar zig zags over through the river market, across to their new riverfront housing development with their soccer stadium, so I would say that that is a perfect for a case study to show the importance of connecting our major entertainment hubs/and districts all in one line!

[Busguy2010]

Dundee extension

Which route would this take? I also want to see Dundee connected, but the street grid is a bit awkward to make it work.

Historically, the route to Dundee picked up where the current line will terminate at 40th/Farnam, going north on 40th, west on Dodge, and then it ran in a couplet on 49th St and 50th St, then west on Underwood to 56th St right at Memorial Park. If they could deal with the Saddle Creek area, it could possibly just run west on Farnam to 49th and 50th instead.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... 76864&z=18

Yes. The old route is the low hanging fruit. Not sure if the old radius is too tight for newer vehicles, but could always make 49th and 50th one way if needed, or what have you.

[Mapguy]

I dont think Dundee makes sense---not because people wouldnt use it, but because its already a fully developed neighborhood with minimal blight and minimal vacant land. The streetcar isnt being constructed for transportation its being constructed to make land more desirable for development.

So any extension or addition of the streetcar is going to follow the same playbook---large abandoned and under-utilized lots that exist between 2 destinations that could be Primed for development and tax capture using TIF.

Using the metrics above; extension of the line if any will go South to Center st and along Saddle Creek because those lots are bigger, less dense, more developable, and politically nobody's attached to those 100 year old single story light industrial buildings.

New lines: Leavenworth, 13th South, 16th, 19, 24th st going North, and possibly 10th st but coupling it with 13th would be a horrible idea.

Out of those lines Leavenworth would probably be the most successful---you could have 2 linear lines that both end at Catalyst and kind of create a giant hub that you could build a ton of spokes off of. I just dont see it happening politically.

Politically I see a North South line picked 5 years down the road and a big push to get federal funding to pay for it since it wont have the same development ROI as the initial segment being built out now

[TitosBuritoBarn]

It’s both a development tool and transportation. Wherever the streetcar is expanded to would have a balance of both existing points of origin and destination as well as space to develop new ones. If they only put it where they want to develop something new, the streetcar will likely run empty and at a huge cost until those things come, which could be years, and the optics of that would be really really bad for the streetcar’s longevity.

[BuildTaller]

It’s both a development tool and transportation. Wherever the streetcar is expanded to would have a balance of both existing points of origin and destination as well as space to develop new ones. If they only put it where they want to develop something new, the streetcar will likely run empty and at a huge cost until those things come, which could be years, and the optics of that would be really really bad for the streetcar’s longevity.

But at least we still get the multi-billion dollars of development.

[NEDodger]

If it’s transportation only, stick to bus. This is an extraordinarily expensive system to just play transport games with.

[Gobears27]

Would a streetcar line make sense running north south along park avenue and 30th Street from Hanscom park to the Highlander development?

[stadsborgare]

What's paying for the streetcar is revenue from paid parking and all the development to come that would broaden the tax base, plus all the already existing attractions and nightlife along the route.

But any future extension, if it goes into already built-up areas, or industrial areas, and does not attract visitors per se -- in other words, for purposes of transportation mainly -- would have to find a different source for the revenue to pay for it, like maybe charging fares at least.

[Garrett]

What's paying for the streetcar is revenue from paid parking and all the development to come that would broaden the tax base, plus all the already existing attractions and nightlife along the route.

But any future extension, if it goes into already built-up areas, or industrial areas, and does not attract visitors per se -- in other words, for purposes of transportation mainly -- would have to find a different source for the revenue to pay for it, like maybe charging fares at least.

Correct. Any rail expansion in Omaha is going to need development in some form. It doesn't necessarily need to be nightlife or an area that needs to attract visitors, but it does need to be dense to build up a proper tax base. So yes, the streetcar could run to Dundee, the zoo, or any other number of places, but it would also necessitate changes along key sections of the route.

People love to envision a full blown light rail down Dodge, but they don't so much envision a 20 story condo building on 168th Street.

[almighty_tuna]

Would be great to have the streetcar line head down 10th past The Chuck and to the Union Omaha stadium sooner than later. Would make lots B & D even more prime locations for serious infill.

[BuildTaller]

Would be great to have the streetcar line head down 10th past The Chuck and to the Union Omaha stadium sooner than later. Would make lots B & D even more prime locations for serious infill.

Study would take a year or two.
A couple years to relocate utilities.
There's a railroad track involved here, right?
Is the maintenance yard large enough?
A year or so to build the track.
Testing
2034?

[almighty_tuna]

Yep, discouraging to not see any of those steps happening now.

[Garrett]

Would be great to have the streetcar line head down 10th past The Chuck and to the Union Omaha stadium sooner than later. Would make lots B & D even more prime locations for serious infill.

Study would take a year or two.
A couple years to relocate utilities.
There's a railroad track involved here, right?
Is the maintenance yard large enough?
A year or so to build the track.
Testing
2034?

1. I do believe there is an active study going on to see how to extend the streetcar north.

2. Hopefully after the first line we have a better idea of utilities and the work it takes to deal with them, as opposed to the messy negotiations that happened with the starter line. 10th Street in this area is also pretty new, having only been built with the convention center in 2001, so utility work should be significantly easier since those locations should be mapped out and not as difficult as century old streets.

3. I believe the show railroad track might be getting cut back with the planned 10th/11th street connection

4. Eric Miller's Grow Omaha article about the maintenance facility indicates that it's only being built to house the initial order of 6 vehicles, but it can be expanded if necessary or they could build an additional facility elsewhere (linked below for reference)

5. Good timeline on track construction, but I imagine testing should be shorter as you won't need to train new operators from scratch.

https://growomaha.com/omaha-streetcar-v ... -facility/

[BuildTaller]

Would be great to have the streetcar line head down 10th past The Chuck and to the Union Omaha stadium sooner than later. Would make lots B & D even more prime locations for serious infill.

Study would take a year or two.
A couple years to relocate utilities.
There's a railroad track involved here, right?
Is the maintenance yard large enough?
A year or so to build the track.
Testing
2034?

1. I do believe there is an active study going on to see how to extend the streetcar north.

2. Hopefully after the first line we have a better idea of utilities and the work it takes to deal with them, as opposed to the messy negotiations that happened with the starter line. 10th Street in this area is also pretty new, having only been built with the convention center in 2001, so utility work should be significantly easier since those locations should be mapped out and not as difficult as century old streets.

3. I believe the show railroad track might be getting cut back with the planned 10th/11th street connection

4. Eric Miller's Grow Omaha article about the maintenance facility indicates that it's only being built to house the initial order of 6 vehicles, but it can be expanded if necessary or they could build an additional facility elsewhere (linked below for reference)

5. Good timeline on track construction, but I imagine testing should be shorter as you won't need to train new operators from scratch.

https://growomaha.com/omaha-streetcar-v ... -facility/

So you're guessing 2032?

[Garrett]

Would be great to have the streetcar line head down 10th past The Chuck and to the Union Omaha stadium sooner than later. Would make lots B & D even more prime locations for serious infill.

Study would take a year or two.
A couple years to relocate utilities.
There's a railroad track involved here, right?
Is the maintenance yard large enough?
A year or so to build the track.
Testing
2034?

1. I do believe there is an active study going on to see how to extend the streetcar north.

2. Hopefully after the first line we have a better idea of utilities and the work it takes to deal with them, as opposed to the messy negotiations that happened with the starter line. 10th Street in this area is also pretty new, having only been built with the convention center in 2001, so utility work should be significantly easier since those locations should be mapped out and not as difficult as century old streets.

3. I believe the show railroad track might be getting cut back with the planned 10th/11th street connection

4. Eric Miller's Grow Omaha article about the maintenance facility indicates that it's only being built to house the initial order of 6 vehicles, but it can be expanded if necessary or they could build an additional facility elsewhere (linked below for reference)

5. Good timeline on track construction, but I imagine testing should be shorter as you won't need to train new operators from scratch.

https://growomaha.com/omaha-streetcar-v ... -facility/

So you're guessing 2032?

Optimistically, 2031.

[almighty_tuna]

Being only five years out, that's definitely optimistic. I want it to be, but my pessimism is flaring.

[MetcalfeHarrison]

It just feels like the politicians won't want to take the risk on an extension before the starter line has been up and running for a few years and people can start acting like they were never against it. It'll be annoying though to have all the roads and infrastructure redone for the stadium and then have to tear it up again for the streetcar extension, hopefully they plan around that.