Urban Transit: Transportation and Development

[Renovator2559]

I think there are some grander issues to solve. Like how to we get back to trusting the experts, science, and philosophy over knee-jerk reactions and politicians?

Apparently the far-right for example has found out about 15 minute cities and are weaponizing the term to be some globalist-Marxist plot. As soon as these things become political, it seems the conversation is dead. How do you educate demographic that thinks bike lanes and friend Germany are one and the same?

By not flip-flopping, being transparent; and not demonstrating inconsistent behavior. As well as allowing science to be debated because there is good and bad science, science is not settled; especially when independent researchers are releasing data.

We've always had 15 minute cities in Europe, for some reason UK citizens are saying no to 15 minute cities despite their cities being 15 minute cities.

Maybe because they are not so happy how they were forced to lock down and forced inoculations and maybe because the WEF has said several concerning things like "You'll own nothing and be happy" and people are quick to reject anything the WEF says even if an idea here and there is not bad like 15 minute cities.

"The 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development includes the concept of the 15-minute city, which aims to create neighborhoods where people can access their daily needs within a 15-minute walk or bike ride."

15 minute city is a traditionalist idea, while the other ideas the WEF has said are questionable at best, in their intentions.

[almighty_tuna]

Maybe because they are not so happy how they were forced to lock down and forced innoculations

Oh my jebus, you really booked a ticket on the BRT to crazy town, didn't you. Any "alternative facts" you'd also like to enlighten us with?

[BRoss]

This extremist alt-right |expletive| needs to stop. Everybody is sick of the complete ridiculousness of it all.

[Athomsfere]

This extremist alt-right |expletive| needs to stop. Everybody is sick of the complete ridiculousness of it all.

I got this far and realized it wasn't a going to be a good comment

As well as allowing science to be debated because there is good and bad science, science is not settled; especially when independent researchers are releasing data.

[Garrett]

This extremist alt-right |expletive| needs to stop. Everybody is sick of the complete ridiculousness of it all.

Frankly I’ve stopped interacting with him entirely because I don’t want to deal with having to pretend that whatever crack pot nonsense he pulls out next is worthy of polite discourse.

[Renovator2559]

Frankly I’ve stopped interacting with him entirely because I don’t want to deal with having to pretend that whatever crack pot nonsense he pulls out next is worthy of polite discourse.

Yet we had a discussion on the Aksarben MTC debate recently. When it comes to most of the traditionalist urbanist concepts; you and I are in agreement. As for the progressivist American style sprawl and suburbs, they were a mistake and we need to implement some of the German style suburbs that bring back a traditional approach. I like the ideas you bring, disagreement in other areas; are trivial to me. You have the freedom to interact with whomever and ignore whomever you want; but know this , I'm inclined to respond to good and bad ideas.

[legato9]

This extremist alt-right |expletive| needs to stop. Everybody is sick of the complete ridiculousness of it all.

Frankly I’ve stopped interacting with him entirely because I don’t want to deal with having to pretend that whatever crack pot nonsense he pulls out next is worthy of polite discourse.

Yup. I'm with ya.

[Athomsfere]

On development concepts:

I want to start using new terms for built environments. Mostly to disambiguate the terms.

I thought a few people might like these, and some will hate it. But still, it's a slowish day so let's have some fun?

I've been working these in my head for a few months now. The first online post was over on reddit:



Supra-Urban: Dense, multimodal urban corridors that are a) TOD by default and b) well connected and supported by their surrounding communities and region. Examples would be cities like DC, Paris, Manhattan. You can easily take mass transit to get into the supra-urban area from even the exurbs or regional peer cities.

Interurban: Describes areas such as street car suburbs. Medium to high density pockets that provide local services (dining, shopping, third places) but are also well connected to supra-urban and urban centers.

Infraburban: Medium to high-ish density urban areas with predominantly suburban design patterns. An area split by highways, stroads, littered with parking lots or strip malls, but provides a density well into "urban" densities. I imagine this would be applied to much of Houston or how we describe much of the Los Angeles region.

Extraurban: What most would consider the suburbs. The edge of an urban area, or a municipality of lower density designs that would be indistinguishable to a visitor from the city it abuts. Excludes: exurbs and bedroom communities.

Transit:

Transit Oriented Development -> the current abomination we see in much of North America to where we have TOD that is subpar and often built in extraurban or infraburban areas. These are cut off from their communities with parking lots, massive parking garages, overbuilt roads, and no real amenities.

Transit District: More similar to an international airport: Hotels, dining, shopping, multi-modal transfer options all seamlessly connected. Housing is also nearby and well connected with pedestrian plazas, bike parking etc. These would be more akin to train stations in Japan or Europe than a typical North American TOD.

[Louie]

For our own reference, would you be able to place each of those definitions in the Omaha metro?

[Athomsfere]

For our own reference, would you be able to place each of those definitions in the Omaha metro?

Sure.

We don't have Supraurban.

I'd call most of Omaha Infraurban, with small sprinkles of Interburban like Blackstone.

West of 72nd I'd call on average Extraurban.

[Dusty]

I think you are trying too hard to rebrand the terms. The terms we use are fine, but not well defined. So many of these elements get blurred together. We have lost a true urban environment because of this. We water down our urban core by trying to attract suburbanites by building infrastructure they are comfortable with like tons of car parking. Instead, we just need add more housing and the urban setting is supported by the influx of people living and wanting that lifestyle.
I know if I live in urban area car-free and want to visit suburbia, I will need to rent a car to visit. It goes the same way for suburbia. If they want to do downtown, they need to be open-minded to use transit to go visit.

I would break it up to 4 zones:

Urban- Dense housing all based around walking, biking, and transit. Car parking and private yards are very limited and comes at a cost. Green spaces are all shared space.

Blended- Nodes of commercial and residential zones. Medium density. A mix of transit and parking for cars.
This is a mix of urban and suburban that falls within the city limits.

Suburban- Neighborhoods outside of city limits. Limited transit options. May have feeder lines to bring you into the transit network. Mostly car centric. More sprawling with big private yards.

Rural- Remote and dependent on a car. Very large lot and often not connected to any city gas/sewer service.

[Garrett]

I wouldn’t say that the urban/suburban line should be based on city limits. Omaha has a lot of suburban area within its city limits. heck, even NYC does. And on a metropolitan scale, LA is the densest city in the country.

Here’s a couple videos on ways to unpack density.

[Busguy2010]

That does sound too complicated to me. If you live and work east of 72nd and north of Center, I'd say, roughly, you can do everything you need to without a vehicle. It's not gonna be convenient, not gonna be fashionable, its gonna be annoying, but its doable. The bus system is fairly decent in that area, however unfortunately, its viewed as "ghetto". Frankly most of the best served areas are, and the people best served in this area have good transportation, plain and simple.

There's been a recent influx of "bougie bus riders". Riders by choice, not by necessity. People who can plenty afford an $1,800+ apartment, but for whatever reason choose not to drive a car (not blaming anybody for that at all), and at the same time the bus system "isn't working".

I think we have to keep in mind since about 1980, the bus system became stigmatized, as ridership numbers plummeted after that year, and it really became a necessity. If you rode the bus it was because you were poor, disabled, or otherwise couldn't drive for whatever reason.

So to me, the city is divided by which parts you can access by bus and those you cannot. It was pretty simple to me, when I had a mechanical issue with my vehicles, I rode the bus, biked, or walked, and I mainly went east. So if I put myself in my own shoes from time to time, I know where I can and cannot feasibly go. That's the dividing factor to me and it's pretty black and white.

[Dusty]

I wouldn’t say that the urban/suburban line should be based on city limits. Omaha has a lot of suburban area within its city limits. heck, even NYC does. And on a metropolitan scale, LA is the densest city in the country.

If I had to explain urban vs suburban to a 5 year old. I would simply say Urban is the city and Suburban is outside the city.
Of course, we know there are a lot of factors involved beyond just location. We have density, modes of transportation, housing styles, types of amenities, etc.

I'm not saying there is a hard line or division when crossing zones either. It's not like you are crossing a bridge into another dimension or world. There will always pockets of sprawl and density mixed in. But areas of town will feel and operate differently. West Omaha would look and operate a lot different than Downtown or the Urban Core. This is also why I added that Blended category to capture the crossover. Suburbia style right in the heart of the city with dense business districts makes it a blend of both.

[Athomsfere]

I wouldn’t say that the urban/suburban line should be based on city limits. Omaha has a lot of suburban area within its city limits. heck, even NYC does. And on a metropolitan scale, LA is the densest city in the country.

If I had to explain urban vs suburban to a 5 year old. I would simply say Urban is the city and Suburban is outside the city.
Of course, we know there are a lot of factors involved beyond just location. We have density, modes of transportation, housing styles, types of amenities, etc.

I'm not saying there is a hard line or division when crossing zones either. It's not like you are crossing a bridge into another dimension or world. There will always pockets of sprawl and density mixed in. But areas of town will feel and operate differently. West Omaha would look and operate a lot different than Downtown or the Urban Core. This is also why I added that Blended category to capture the crossover. Suburbia style right in the heart of the city with dense business districts makes it a blend of both.

This is exactly why I think we need the new terms.

72nd and Dodge for example, or 132nd and L are both areas that are depending on how the terms are used "urban" or "suburban". Worse, it is hard to have meaningful conversations on the built environments when our existing terminology has both a lack of clear definitions and decades of mixed use.

Then there are all of the edge cases and non-standard geographical or political oddities. City-counties, boroughs, suburbs that are more dense and multimodal than many principle cities, sometimes even their own. Or even areas inside a city (limits) that would be classified as urban or suburban but based on their actual built environment are rural.

Back to 72nd and Dodge: Many would consider it urban simply because it sees a ton of traffic, and is ~130 blocks east of where Omaha actually ends.

I'd argue the area is suburban if limited to only our current terms, because the layout and design of it demands a car for most tasks and discourages walking even though the ORBT runs right through there.

To me, the best course is to disconnect the janky, outdated, boundary driven terms to a more precise design based vocabulary that is still somewhat accessible. 72nd and Dodge is infraburban. Or, from a more technical angle it is medium density (urban density) with high dispersion (suburban / rural geometry ).

[Athomsfere]

I wouldn’t say that the urban/suburban line should be based on city limits. Omaha has a lot of suburban area within its city limits. heck, even NYC does. And on a metropolitan scale, LA is the densest city in the country.

Here’s a couple videos on ways to unpack density.

I assume these were meant more for Dusty?

I'll watch these both, but from the titles they seem to be exactly what I've been saying on this board for some time...

[Garrett]

I wouldn’t say that the urban/suburban line should be based on city limits. Omaha has a lot of suburban area within its city limits. heck, even NYC does. And on a metropolitan scale, LA is the densest city in the country.

Here’s a couple videos on ways to unpack density.

I assume these were meant more for Dusty?

I'll watch these both, but from the titles they seem to be exactly what I've been saying on this board for some time...

They're just meant as general food for thought sort of thing to reflect on density and the different ways it can look.

[Busguy2010]

Another note, you can bet that almost every area built before 1945 is in what would typically be considered "urban". There's an exception in Fairacres, but that's about it. So how old is the original housing stock? That's a pretty good guage. If you go by that, you pretty much land at about 67th-72nd on the north end of town. When you go to the south end, it's a bit more of a gray area with I'd say the little papio creek being the hard boundary. You really don't find anything urban south and west of it, however, you do see suburban qualities within it. With the Crossroads area becoming urbanized, I like the little papio creek as the hard boundary. I think roughly that's about as far as Omaha got before car culture really set in.